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I do not believe in hitting a woman unless she hits first. But how could you not knock her teeth out?

Here is the tabulation. It's sobering... .but we are here to deal with reality.

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Mine hurt her hand punching me. I'm surprised I wasn't hauled in front of the firing squad.

Don't hit women,  it's not on no matter what

Because if police are called or it goes to the courts, it doesn't matter that the person of the male gender was hit first by the person of the female gender.  In many places a man is held accountable for hitting a woman regardless the provocation.

Try going to court and see what happens when asked, ":)id you hit her?" and you reply "Yes, but she was hitting me first."  They won't care about the "Yes but... ."  All that matters is the "Yes".

Self-preservation from a legal standpoint dictates that the man retreat and even that can be problematic.  Many members here have reported that the exit was blocked and all they did was brush past and the allegation was made that "He grabbed me and slammed me up against the wall and threw me down the stairs."  And all the prosecutor asks is ":)id you touch her?" and you respond (with that infamous 'Yes but... .' "Yes but just to get past her so I could leave."  And prosecutor say, "So you were the aggressor! If there is conflict you never even touch the other person."

This is not to say no one ever gets away with it.  But most of us here are Nice Gals and Nice Guys who aren't slick enough or street-savvy enough to slip through the legal system with ease.

Yes, it sounds jaded how I tell it, but a brief moment of 'justice' can get you in real trouble with the 'judicial' system and have lasting impact on your freedom, parenting, work and other facets of your future life.

I'm with trog here and it doesn't matter if it's a male or a female.

My exN/BPDw would get into some nasty rages, back me into a corner, use physical violence herself just to try and provoke me into a response. We have a choice and the best option is to walk away.

Lashing out with fists, whether it's male or female is a sign that you are NOT in control. Believe me, I thought about it so many times with exN/BPDw but the moment the thought entered my head I would head out the door and go for a walk. If I was really angry I would head down the gym or kickboxing. Nothing like a bit of controlled aggression to release that anger.

The second you feel yourself losing control of you, walk away and allow yourself to calm down.

The frustration may be there to trigger impulsivity to do such a thing and the emotional desire to do so is understandable but that's what separates us from people like that,  I would rather walk away bleeding and have to go to the ER with a story to tell than to ever strike back physically at a woman,  even all I have been through I could NEVER,  but that is a good topic for a thread?    Did your ex pwBPD ever try to provoke physical violence out of you? 

My ex used to punch the crap out of me and I'd usually laugh because it didn't hurt and I wanted to piss her off.  Although one time she'd been a b___ for hours and punched me in the face, and it took absolutely everything I had to not beat the crap out of her; almost snapped and 1% more and I'd be typing this from jail.  Then again, I might have been able to get her arrested that night, bleeding on the cop might have helped, didn't think of that at the time though.

Real men don't hit women.  Period.  Surprised this is even being discussed.

Man or woman.  I don't ever see a need to hit back.  Unless MY life is in imminent danger (which likely means I put myself into a situation I shouldn't be in to begin with), I've never felt the need to throw a punch. 

Even when my BPDex took a few swings (slaps) at me early on, I just laughed and walked away.  It frustrated the hell out of her and eventually she realized I wasn't going to react the way she wanted, so she quit.

I'm a large to extra large guy. 6' 200 lb. She was tiny. 5' at less than a buck. She hit me close to fifty times and threw stuff at me. She spit in my face just out if the blue. She slapped me, punched me, spit on me and threw things at me. I wasn't provoking her deliberately. I'm not even sure why she did these things to me. When she would do these things I normally was paying attention to someone else. She punched me repeatedly once while my son and I were talking about having a barbecue party at my house. I wasn't even talking to her. She spit in my face when I was talking with a male friend of mine at a bar over drinks. Her physical attacks were not deliberately provoked. I'm sure she did it for attention due to lack of good communication skills.

After about five years of this, I finally slapped her across the face and she never did it again. It was about half an hour after she threw something at me and hit me on top of the head with it. I was in bed sleeping. I didn't strike out of anger. I thought about it. I wanted her to know how it felt when someone that loved her hurt her physically. Dumb. I know. She's the not one I ever laid a finger on that way. It took a lot to get to that point for me. I felt horrible afterward. Neither of us called the cops on one another. Maybe we should have. The whole thing was just plain stupid. These folks will do their damnedest to drag you into the nuthouse with them.

I'd like to add to what everyone said so far.

I have a D9 and I'd sure not want a man to hit her.

A good morale compass should provide a way for nobody to hit anybody.

I think this is a good point.  I think everyone has their breaking point, male or female.  No one is a stone.  I think it's important to know where your breaking point is so you never let it get to that point. 

I've never hit a man in my life (or woman) and I cannot imagine doing so unless I was defending myself and feared for my well-being.  Truly some of the stories I have read on this site and thread are shocking to me.  How anyone, male or female, could justify hitting someone is beyond me.  I'm sorry to the men (and women) on here who have experienced this. 

I've often wondered if beating up the BPD ex is the elephant in the room here. I hit mine towards the end. It was about as futile and pointless as loving her was.

Right on.  Not that the discussion has turned that way, but I'd hate to see the obligatory tough guy come out of the woodwork and say 'objecting to hitting a woman is further evidence of the wussification of today's man'.  This site doesn't need that crap.

On the other hand, there's another side of life where violence is the norm, and those folks are pretty desensitized so might not show up on a site like this.  For the record I've never hit a woman and think it is wrong, although I've also been in situations where I really wasn't thinking straight, I'm sure many of you can relate.  Anyway, my ex was raised in a brutal environment, poor working class, bikers, drug addicts, drinkers, and plenty of abuse and neglect, the things that created the disorder to begin with.  She's had many, many boyfriends, and there were really two types, who responded differently when they caught her cheating, which she always did: half of them would leave and the other half would kick her ass, and here's the clincher, she considered that normal behavior.  She's passing it on too: her son slept with another man's wife, so the husband came over and shot his two dogs dead.  Yes, this side of life does exist, in fact me, someone who hasn't been in a fight since 5th grade, was considered a pussy in that world, since that's how 'men' resolve issues.  It's also why there are cops.

This is hard to read - for all involved.

Our bad acts, in general, are the elephant in the room.  We have hosted the threads about our members cheating.  That is an elephant in some of the rooms.

But lets put it in a poll... .get it on the table.


I will ask that no one posture here - truth, no bravado.

This is true. The first of many police involvements between the BPDx and myself was initiated because i called the police when her rage had gone a little further than usual. I tried many times to leave but she would not let me. She threw herself on the floor in front of the door and i grabbed her ankles and dragged her way trying to escape. WHen the cops got there she told them that i dragged her around the house in a fit of rage and even though i was the one that called the cops, had a bloody nose, fat lip and my shirt was ripped, they arrested the both of us and not just her. The officer explained that the law where i live is that if the cops don't know who is telling the truth everyone gets arrested. That was the first of 4 arrests initiated by that monster.

Nope. Never once either way in any situation in over 35 years since I started dating.

Nit picky perhaps but I have had two partners since my BPD ex and I haven't laid a finger on either of them so the word "last" is misleading. I did hit both my BPD ex's. There was a gap of almost ten years between them. The ones between one and two and the ones before one I never laid a hand on either. I'd feel more at ease taking part in the poll if "last" was replaced by "BPD". If not I'll respect the decision but I won't take part.

Hitting a woman is not wrong, such a statement is just plain sexist. Hitting someone that's physically weaker than you and/or has less fighting skills is wrong. I can assure you that not all women fall in that category. My ex for example, having done heavy physical labor all her life, is as strong (maybe stronger) as me. Oh and she can throw a mean punch too. A few months ago I had to lie to my to my coworkers about my black eyes, I told em that I was in a bar fight because I couldn't bring myself to tell them what really went down, if you know what I mean... .

I have never struck a woman and I never would. My exBPD waif never hit me. She did go crazy one time after I caught her cheating and ripped my shirt off my body. My exwife (not BPD, at least I don't think) use to beat the sh1t out of me. She was a rager. She always felt bad afterwards but the damage was already done. I just covered my face and did the rope a dope Ali style.

Did you ever consider pressing charges Waifed?  Men don't hit women, that's the rule, and some women interpret that to mean they can flail away with impunity.  What's the answer?

I threatened to leave her if she didn't stop. It worked for several years but eventually she started doing it again the last few years of our marriage. She actually did it again twice after we divorced and also twice keyed my exBPD's car. Thankfully I could just walk away the first time after we divorced. The second time I called the police. She bit me and the officer wanted to see the bite marks. I refused to show him. I didn't want her arrested.

Ironically enough my 16 year old daughter called me last week at 2:30am from a resort they were staying at for NYE. My exwife was drunk and pulling her hair and scratching her. She then locked my daughter out of the room. I mentioned this to my therapist yesterday and today she called and said she was required to report it to Childhood Protective Services. So now I'm stressed about that. I think my picker is bad   lol. It's pretty bad when your BPDgf calls your exwife crazy! :) After 16 months of therapy I no longer crave that type of drama. It repulses me now.

I am suprised something as passe as hitting someone is the point here Bpd s are far better at dishing out excruciating torture and KILLING people without lifting a finger an the courts cant do a thing hitting someone whoopee doo Seriously this thread had lost the plot There are people here saying they would NEVER hit a woman exery single one of these people is lying! Really I can list a dozen circumstances where it would be absolutely neccasary an why is hitting the bench mark this is a perpetration of a sick an gross unfairness people DO NOT GET what violence is i think

Well that's a pretty bold statement, you're right in my case though, I can sit here sober and calm and say hitting women is wrong, which I believe, but in certain circumstances, when I certainly have not been calm or even sane, I've nearly snapped, and she had it coming, believe me, but that doesn't make it right.  None of it was right.

The men don't hit women rule applies to normal circumstances where healthy people interact with each other. When BPD is involved everything normal goes out of the window. Everything! Everyone here knows that because they've been in the BPD trenches where total chaos and despair reigns.

How does this work exactly?  We live by the "don't hit women rule" except when we encounter a really frustrating women who we can't control? Does the don't shoot rule go out the window too?  *)

Hitting a partner is not about self defense. Read the psychology behind it.  It's about domination and control.

We are out of the relationships now.  So now is the time to do the personal inventory and see what is going on with us. I think it is fair to say that if we still find ourselves justifying why we hit our partner - we believe that it is the way to handle frustration.

The last time I had to deal with this situation was when my SD got hit by her boyfriend.

The full story - she had been manic and had not slept for 5 days. Neither had he (or me much). He is the ripe old age of 19 and on the 5th day after being extremely difficult to handle (she was finally hospitalized that night after us trying to get her in the previous three days) she told him to hit her. Guess what he did?

She told me to hit her, too, but the situation was by no means extreme. I just patted her face hoping the shock which was what she was after would bring her back.

What he did was wrong but perfectly understandable. I explained what happened to her sister who appropriately told her sister to ____off when she complained he hit her, even though she doesn't like him with no further explanation.

While this situation is far from extreme, it drops in the understandable category for me.

I would like to add, that if a women grabbed most men by the bare scrotum, dug their nails in, and twisted leaving a few moments before permanent damage was done - most men would succumb an hit the woman (most not all).

I would like to add this is basically irrelevant and misses the main point.

My first BPDex became physically abusive but it was mainly in the form of pinching me when ever she saw a pretty girl because she was intensely jealous. We spent a year and a half in and out of of the rs a bunch of recycles. One time we were not together a pretty girl exchanged numbers with me and that weekend my ex and I recycled and the girl called at like 1am.  My ex freaked out and attacked me.   She tried to attack me onetime after that but I restrained her then she got turned on and seduced me. Lol so twisted.

Well, I found my ex's dating site profile on day of my grandmother's funeral. She was online, having fun while I was attendind to the ceremony. We agreed to to work things out, but something was not right so I checked her facebook log. It turned out that she was cheating on me my while I was mourning, even had to take a morning-after contraceptive pill. When I confronted her, she seemed entitled, and threatened me with false charges if I reach out to that man.

That was the only time when I lost my temper and grabbed her. You send nude pictures on christmas eve to your ex, okey, you go to porn casting behind my back. Well, that's your body. But it was just too much. Still, no harm was done.

I know.

Actually "men don't hit women" applies to the situations when the man is big and strong and the woman is small and weak.

Some guys (newcomer boxers) carry is as far as refusing to hit me in the ring when we have mixed-gender fights (!)

AnnaK,

We're talking about domestic situations and physical abusive - not sport.  *)

What is happening in your home?

Skip

Verbal, emotion and mental, absolutely... .

Right now I am in Spain. But yes, he hit me outside the ring without my consent, and I did the same. He hit me before I hit him too.

He is physically unable to beat me up, but he tried before. He is physically unable because I detected his red flags and took measures before moving in with him (started martial arts).

In fact, by learning martial arts I managed to convert the whole ugly situation of physical abuse into kind of a game and competition, so we managed to avoid things turning ugly.

Nevermind, if that does not count, let's remove my vote.

But I swear, the cycle was there, and the cycle was unfolding the ugliest way possible, it started from verbal abuse, "you provoke me by talking back" etc. etc., but I eventually managed to entirely mess up the cycle and gain his respect IN FIGHTING.

ditto... .

(Exept  I add physical at times.  I would go into "turtle" mode/a.k.a. fetal position  just to be left alone. I would never hit her back. There was no point if I did. Besides, I am 210 ibs and she is 101 ibs, tops. If I ever struck her I would be the bad guy.  I did, however, hold her down and then called 911.  I would try to leave the house but she would take the keys to the cars and keep them in her hand in order for me to be the continued victim of her abuse.  My spouse tried everything to get me to be physical back at her, name-calling,  calling me a wimp, "be a man", blah blah blah and then striking me over and over again with her fist, chasing me around with a knife, throwing things at me, etc.  I never gave in. I just videotaped with my phone if I could.  Hitting back a BPD person is what they WANT so I never gave her the satisfaction)

Moreover, by home-boxing we seem to have addressed some of his childhood memories (drunk father beating family), because initially he was boasting to his friends about... .yeah, beating me... .with gloves... .but he was talking like "I beat her, mind you!"

Now he seems to have processed it, because he has much less mixed emotions about... .well, beating me :)

We kinda contained it.

I agree that no man should ever lay a hand on a woman, but I do think it is a good topic for discussion in the right context. Here is my story as it pertains to this subject,

I consider being on a dating site is cheating, not to mention she has already physically cheated on me before, I would constantly be accused of cheating and every time I was accused I would find her on her dating site, I am trying to save and salvage a relationship so this is very stressful,  now add in all the other BPD traits, The push pull dynamic, unobtainable unreachable relationship requests, splitting, devaluation, Constant blaming, and everything else, then roll in the FOG.  You begin to live daily life at a abnormally high stress level to start with, this may not be a pretty analogy but if a human being was ever going to be driven to laying their hands on someone else it takes a lot of stress and aggravation and hurt and confusion and other negative feelings to get there. Male or female, it is not gender biased.

now you are living your everyday lives at a abnormally high capacity of stress and negative feelings to start off each day that brings you to your breaking point, what stops the actual act from happening is that we are rational and know that it is wrong, A good upbringing taught us that, we have good morals, we have self-control, Control of impulses, we understand our actions have consequences, and so much more that they lack, on the very last day I was with my ex I was still doing all the chores of daily life for her while being devalued and criticised and accused of things such as cheating, only to find out later that evening while I was doing all of these chores she was on two dating sites talking to men even that very night while I was at her house! Now I have reached my boiling point, I am at 100% capacity of stress, frustration and anger. My reaction was to just be done and leave, at the foot of the bed there is not enough room for two people to pass each other so when I went to leave she blocked me there, I went to crawl over the bed and she blocked me there and started screaming for me not to leave, I stood back up to walk out and she blocked me again screaming talk to me talk to me! I never felt like I wanted to hit her at any point but what scared me is that I was so frustrated and angry and hurt and wanting to leave I FELT like grabbing her by the wrists or arms and moving her out of my way so I could leave. Even that would be wrong to me so I froze. In a split second I recognized my FEELING, rationalised the situation, knew the consequences processed it and kept my values and made a decision. I deescalated That situation by taking the most peaceful route out of it by saying ok let's just go to sleep and talk in the morning, IM too upset to discuss it now.  I did not want to give in to her and stay that night but the alternative would have been escalating the situation, she brought me to a level of anger, hurt and frustration I never want to see again and I knew it, so I got up for work and left with my values of never laying a hand on a woman fully intact! I told her the next day that because of this I am not coming back unless she gets some help so this never happens again.  And I have not seen her in person since,  she did bring me to that point but I am in control of MY actions.

I live by the don't hit anyone unless they absolutely seek it themselves. Through physical attack or provocation. I have no problem taking someone out who seeks it. That doesn't included women for several reasons but on 2 extreme occasions with my 2 BPD ex's it happened. I don't boast about it and I am not proud of it but given the circumstances I am not ashamed of it either. I forgive myself for those two momentary losses of reason and self control. What I don't forgive is them for pushing me to those extremes. I know the stigma society attaches to it and while that's something I will have to live with it's not something I agree with.

Shooting? Gun laws are very restrictive in Europe so I know nothing about shooting people.

I never said it was self defense. I was not out to dominate or control my ex. The first time was retaliation over provocation. Yes, I walked right into that one. On the second it was an act of hurting so bad the pain had nowhere left to go anymore. I lost that control of myself and I wish it hadn't happened. It did and like I said above, I forgive myself for it.

Handle frustration? Are you having a laugh? It was a handle on nothing. It was an ugly outburst after 5 years of pain, betrayal, sacrifice, fear, abuse, fatigue, futility, emotional distress and a hundred other things associated with the war we have all been through. You say it as if it was planned or something. "Oh today I feel a little frustrated so I'll apply a bit of DV on my partner". Was that it you reckon?

'Hollande, you know that domestic violence is a reaction, not a plan.  And you know that dominance and control via power and intimidation is part of a style. The hitting is just one aspect of that style. So, no, that is not what the experts "reckon".

"In my opinion, hitters are not cold, but more likely seething with distressing emotions and out of control," said Dr. Ola Barnett, a researcher at Pepperdine University in Malibu, Calif. "They may well have a limited conscience."

Dr. Barnett said batterers often feel justified in battering because they were reared in an environment -- whether a family or neighborhood -- where violence was accepted as a proper method for solving problems or enforcing the rules. Between 40% and 70% of batterers in clinical samples have been exposed to abuse in childhood.

"As adults they become emotionally dependent upon a wife and expect her to be responsible for making them happy. When she cannot make them happy, she is "letting them down." says Dr. Barnett. "They do not know how to achieve happiness on their own."

A common rationale expressed in group therapy is something like this: "So, what option did I have? I had to hit her. She deserved it." I was provoked.

"Although wives of batterers may be provocative, they do not provoke their husband's abuse in reality," Dr. Barnett said.  



So what she (they) did on those days is not forgivable.  But hitting them is.

What was the specific event that caused you to get physical with each women?

And there is that stigma again. "Batterer". While Dr. Barnett is entitled to his opinion based on his research I am entitled to disagree with me and others being written off as simply "batterers". Nice of Ola to cover some bases with "They may well have a limited conscience.". How very empathic of him.


Add me to the between 60% to 30% then.

So what she (they) did on those days is not forgivable.

A years abuse from One and 5 years of mind games, betrayal, humiliation and the rest from Two is unforgivable to me. The smear campaign and legal circus from One following the slap she got after, a year post our relationship, pressing her t#ts against me while whispering in my ear how attractive I was and then screaming in my face that I should just die for telling her to f#ck off I will never forgive. Illness or no illness I have no forgiveness in my heart for her tricks. The rage from Two that lead to me hitting her I can forgive but not the games that went on during and after the final six month period. I certainly won't forgive how she laughed at me over the phone while declaring that she was now with my replacement because she loved him and how I felt didn't matter to her. I will not forgive how when I was more or less gasping for air from the shock she uttered the words "I think your level here is rather low" and put the phone down. I will not forgive them!

But yes, I can forgive myself for my weakness and loss of self control. I will not punish myself for it. The years spent with those two women and the turmoil in their wake is more than punishment enough. What I needed and need is to recover, not spank myself further.

What was the event that caused you to get physical with each women?

Answered above.

This whole gender distinction is ridiculous, we all know that women these days can be the abuser just as much as men can be and that includes physical abuse.

So as men we should just take it and for a woman it's ok to defend herself. I am a man and I was beaten up, bitten, kicked at several occasions and one time I snapped and retaliated yes. It might be wrong but just as much as it would be for a woman to retaliate then. Even the police didn't blame me, they could clearly see what was going on and that she wasn't the poor female being abused... .

Not so fast there Bunnyrabit! According to Dr. Ola Barnett you are a "batterer" who adheres to a "common rationale" of having no option but hitting her and she deserved it because you were provoked. Although you weren't provoked because "wives of batterers may be provocative, they do not provoke their husband's abuse in reality". There is a further, albeit to a lesser degree, oxymoron that although you are not a cold person you have a limited conscience.

You are not a man, lover, friend, colleague or a professional. You have no interests, no feelings and you make no contribution to society or humanity. You are not a human being at all. You are a "batterer". A "batterer" who has never been provoked. As am I. As am several others on this forum who like us lost themselves in a destructive relationship. Our experiences and our pain does not matter because we are mere "batterers". By hitting those who have hurt us the most we do not matter anymore.

I'm not going to pretend to understand getting to the level of physical violence.  My guy called me "delusional" once and I was ready to end it.

I don't want this to sound like a judgment, because it isn't... . I'm sincerely curious as to why you'd stick around in an environment where beating and biting and getting kicked on several occasions seemed like a more favorable option than leaving the scene before it ever got to that level, or ending the relationship sooner?

Why did all of us here stick around in spite of the mind games, rage, devaluation, infidelity, abuse (all kinds) and everything else? Why is tolerating physical abuse different, worse or better than tolerating mental abuse? Why did we do it is the big question on which this whole forum pivots.

straight up? Fear of being alone, trauma bond (divorce), that is why I put up with it.

In my experience the physical abuse was less harmfull than the other forms of abuse.

Guilty your Honour!

Thank you, Deeno and Mr Hollande (and Blimblam!).  So, would you say that the fear of being alone was greater than ending an unsatisfying abusive relationship?

What's helped you the most to move beyond that fear?

FOG, co-dependency, drama addiction,... .take your pick, it wasn't coming from a healthy place, I can see that now. The physical abuse was the least damaging to me, I can take some physical pain, it's no biggie compared to the emotional pain of being betrayed, devalued, humiliated, abandoned, replaced... .

Important thing is I'm on the leaving board now, willing to do the work. I'm NC for 3 months now, I cut all ties and it feels great to be slowly coming back to my senses.

I've had my ass kicked a few times and I concur, it hurt way less than the stuff my two BPD's did to me. Every injury sustained from beatings I've taken have long passed while their violence on my soul haunts me.  

Some people in this thread talk about a fair fight. Of course my ex's didn't have much resistance to offer when I hit them. But when they set their mind demons on me it was the emotional equivalent of being pounced on by a company of marines who when I was on the ground bleeding kept going with ridicule and kicking me when I tried to get up. In terms of mental violence it was f#cking Abu Ghraib.

Not a fair fight at all. But hey, at least they aren't "batterers". Or what say you, Dr. Ola?

That and the hope, or illusion rather, that things would get better.

The biggest help I got was her already mentioned parting words on the phone. Interesting that. Never thought of that one before. And it's so simple.  Is this where I join the ranks of some of the people I've had such trouble understanding before? The ones who express gratitude towards their ex's? Maybe not, but her booting me out of our relationship in the callous way she did certainly played a major part in setting me on the road from the fear of being alone. You see once out there in the cold I had no choice but to start walking.

Thanks Phoebe.

That's not stigma. That's the term used for one that commits battery. Yes, I get that you don't make a regular habit out of it. But it you murdered someone just one time, you would be a murderer. If you steal, it doesn't matter how often you do it, you're a thief. That's unfortunately the label you get when you strike someone.

Hollande, I do understand feeling so angry that you lose your mind for a while. I understand doing things in anger that you later regret. I've had a few of those moments in my life. So please understand that while I don't think it's okay, I don't think this makes you a bad person. I don't think you should be completely defined by those two incidents. But we need to realize though that when we let ourselves get to that point, and it's not healthy, nor is it acceptable. You don't get to hit someone because they yell at you, or hurt your feelings. That's not how adults handle themselves.


This is what seems to be a bit contradictory to me. You say you take responsibility for your poor choices, but then it seems like you're still blaming your exes. Yes, our exes did things to hurt us. We allowed ourselves to be pushed. That choice is on us. And even more importantly, we never HAVE to hit someone. That's our choice as well. Even if it's reactionary and we don't consciously think about it before hand, we have to learn to walk away before it reaches that point. If you aren't willing to accept responsibility for your own choices, how are you going to avoid those bad choices in the future?

I'm going to be frank, you come across as an angry dude on here. And I'm not trying to say that you have no right to be angry at your exes; you do. That's just what I get from the tone of a lot of your posts. I'm not trying to make accusations, I just don't know you outside of what you write  on here, but do you think that you have issues with anger?

In my case, yes. So I did whatever I could to not make her leave until I was used up and depleted. Hair thining, cringe when i heard her ringtone or text, mine field walking, all that. Then I was dumped. I was a mess. My friends helped me and then my T. They showed me that it was ok to be alone. I knew it was ok because Im an only child so I was used to it. Just had to revisit that skill set. Im still nowhere near normalcy, but I realize that no matter what I did, I would have been let go. Shes hopeless, Im not.

As far as I can tell, nobody has implied that anyone should just allow themselves to be physically attacked, male or female. We all have the right to defend ourselves, but if someone is assaulting you, the first thing you should try and do is remove yourself from the situation, and call the cops. Man or woman.

Physical violence should be a last resort, but I can understand if that's your only way to defend yourself. Hitting someone because they've hurt your feelings, or said something you don't like, or because you're mad, isn't okay. Ever. That's how a child acts.


I have friends that work at the local Domestic Violence Crisis Center, and as they have explained it, the worst part of physical abuse is often the psychological damage that it causes.

Murder and hitting someone. Quite a leap in severity between the two in my opinion. That's the label, the stigma, that society attaches for what I have done, yes. I know that. I still don't agree with it.


Thank you for not defining me as a "batterer".

I agree with the second paragraph and I haven't said anywhere here that it's healthy, acceptable or mature. What I HAVE said is that the other side plays their part as well. I didn't get out of bed one day and decide to take a swing at the person I loved. Something happened that lead to that. While I am to blame for my part a second person was also involved. A mentally ill person with a lifetime specialising in abuse. It wasn't just that day that lead to me hitting her. There was 5 years of various actions and episodes prior to that fateful day. Actions and episodes I find it very hard to forgive. I forgive myself for breaking but I don't forgive them for breaking me. Does that make it clearer?


When I slapped the first BPD I was stupid because I was in a public place. With more sense (and less alcohol, maybe) I would have left the premises and that would have been the end of it. Lesson learned there.

With the second one it was more difficult. We were in my house and I had nowhere to go. I could maybe have thrown her out but we don't even live in the same country so with nowhere for her to go that may have escalated an already bad situation. Prior to getting in the house she stood outside banging on the window and screaming like a lunatic. Before this I had walked out of the pub we were in because she was raging at me. Whatever I said just triggered her more and more so I removed myself from the situation. I headed home. Half way there I turned and went back to get her. The road from the pub to mine is lethal after dark and I felt I couldn't leave her to her own devices. Especially not when drunk. When I found her she hurled further abuse at me so I left and went home. I took one of the covers from the bed and went to sleep on the sofa. If she was going to return she could have the bed but I wasn't sure she would. I imagined her finding some loser guy at the pub and sleeping with him. Then she came and banged on the window. I opened the door and she stood outside screaming at me. I begged her to come inside and after some more verbal abuse she did. She sat on the sofa and laid into me for having moved my bedding there. She saw the computer was on and shouted at me that I was chatting up other women and it went on and on. I snapped. Did I have a choice? Sure I could have left the house and slept God knows where. I know no one where I live and I was at the end of my tether. All my efforts to get us back together and make everything right, because we WERE right for each other, (right?) came crumbling down like before but even worse this time. So yes I lost it.

I accept responsibility but I don't feel particularly sorry for her. Morally she played her part as well. I know the law couldn't give a rats ass about that but this is not a trial so it doesn't matter. We are discussing ethics and lessons learned here. So no and no again, I do not feel ashamed for what I did. I forgive myself for breaking under circumstances that were exceptional. What have I learned to avoid bad choices in the future? I posted a while back about a date I went on with a woman who was at best unhinged and at worst possibly even crazier than my BPD ex. Half an hour in I had counted enough red flags to get up and leave. I felt good about that. I am not perfect but I did well that night. I've come a long way since May last year.



I'm going to be frank, you come across as an angry dude on here. And I'm not trying to say that you have no right to be angry at your exes; you do. That's just what I get from the tone of a lot of your posts. I'm not trying to make accusations, I just don't know you outside of what you write  on here, but do you think that you have issues with anger?

I am a fiery and intense person. Issues with anger? Angry reactions have landed me in trouble on some occasions. They have also saved me a few times.

That's interesting. Are they the kind of people who see both sides to the events or is it all about the woman who's taken a hiding? If so I don't think I agree with their way of seeing it. It's very one dimensional. Is it out of order to suggest there's often more than one victim in an abusive relationship?

Domestic shelters don't mediate or judge - they help people in dangerous situations get to safety.

They are the kind of people that help those that need it. They aren't there to take sides in an argument.

Not sure about that. I read a couple of years ago about a man who worked in one of those who was fired for being a man. Details escape me now but it was something about the organisation who ran the shelter had a feminist agenda and a clause in their terms of employment saying men weren't OK to work there. I think the shelter itself were happy with him but not the umbrella organisation so out he went. Very judgemental in my opinion.

The solicitor I know, the guy who was about to negotiate to have my ex's debts written off, told me about several divorce procedures involving DV where he has represented both men and women. He had on many occasions negotiated settlements that were OK for all parties only to see them crumble when representatives of women's shelters had interfered. In his opinion many of the female shelter employees, who were there in an advisory role on behalf of the woman, were so bitter against men that they were downright vindictive. He told me of his frustrations, especially when children where involved, over the many good settlements he'd negotiated with much effort on both sides only to be ruined by shelter volunteers.

There's a lady called Erin Pizzey, famous for having started the first battered women's shelter in the world, whose various books and writings support what he said.

You're welcome.  All I know is that my ex's sure gave me a better understanding of myself, and yes, for that I am truly grateful.  Without their, umm "help", I have no idea who I might be today.  I might be frustrating the hell out of a really nice guy lol  I have had it in me.  I was afraid to be alone, too.  Didn't trust myself or something.

People should realize two primary things.

One. Violence breeds violence. Wanting to hit someone is not a reason to hit them. Thinking someone deserves to be hit is not a reason to hit them. Unfortunately there are circumstances where it is necessary to hit someone (male or female) and you have to answer to your conscience on this.

Two. Mental abuse has the potential to far outweigh any other form of abuse including physical and sexual abuse by a fair margin in my opinion (including child abusers). It is the mental abuse component of these two actions that often causes the real damage.

My exN/BPDw resorted to violence on a number of occasions.

The first time was during one of her rages. The events that led up to it was that we were out in the car and on our way back came to a fork in the road, as this was my home town, I knew that both roads led to the same place. However, she was angry that I didn't go the way she wanted to go. I ignored the initial rage and once she discovered that I was in the right, the rage got even more intense. At that point, I walked away to allow her space to calm down, only she didn't. Instead she followed me screaming at me that my actions had caused her to wake up her child and that it was all my fault. That another couple had come up to ask if she was alright so it was obvious that I was to blame for it all. I went to sort out her daughter and make sure everything was ok and that's when she hit me in the face and pushed me to the ground.

Afterwards, there was no apology, in fact quite the opposite. I should be proud I have a wife that is protective over her children because it proves she cares, is what she actually said to me.

The second time was when her daughter asked if I could ask her mother something because she was scared of her and scared to ask. I did and she flew into a rage. I made the mistake of saying that this was the reason her daughter was scared to ask her anything and she poured freshly made hot coffee all over me and caused burns. I stood up and tried to get inside and that's when she hit me around the head with the empty coffee pot. Her reason and excuse was the fact I was stood in the doorway. Again, never apologised, it was my fault for being hit.

The final time was on a plane. She was angry because I brought my headphones to watch the TV and she had forgotten hers. That made me extremely selfish in her eyes so I offered to share. Then she raged because it was about what I wanted to watch and not what she wanted to watch, so I gave her the headphones and took out a book. She hit me straight across the face with the headphones, stood up and shouted that if I ever raise a hand to her again she will have me arrested for all to hear. I never once raised a hand to her.

This was the kind of abuse I suffered on a regular basis and yet never felt the urge to raise a hand to her or hit her. The last one was extremely tempting given that I couldn't walk away, had to put up with stares and nasty comments from other passengers for 4 hours but my thoughts were that I don't know these people, they don't know me or my darling psychopath of an ex-wife so after those 4 hours, I never have to think about the comments and stares again.

Ironically, it was the last one that she brought up in joint therapy because she was convinced it would prove to T that I was selfish and the cause of all her problems. It was that one that actually tipped the scales against her and that was the very last time he wanted to see her. What was even worse, is that I was so enmeshed in all of this that I took responsibility for all 3 of those incidents and even apologised to her in the Therapists office. And there was the start of my road to recovery, identifying what constitutes as abuse and learning that violence at any cost or for any reason is completely unacceptable.

This is the hardest post I have ever read on this board. In my opinion, it is never ok to hit a woman whether she is a whack job or not. Walk away.

My ex was a former Marine, physically intimidating, with borderline rages. To say that I was afraid at times is an understatement. My gut   moments would flare up right before, during and for at least 24 hours after his craziness. I had PTSD from him. I worried all the time it would escalate to physical abuse but I was definitely intimidated.

And, then he could be so nice and charming.

You're right, it's not OK, but when she's in your face raging and hitting you, it starts seeming like a really, really good idea.  Walking away and not stopping and not looking back is the best course; I'm glad I did that or I'd be in jail for sure.  Unfortunately not every man makes that decision.

If they hit you, walk away, and either set firm boundaries and offer the opportunity to solve or just leave. If the shoe was on the other foot no one would advise a woman to even give a guy a second chance. In my experience, many men are pushed right to the brink of sanity and physically abused, the second they lash out everything before that is forgotten bar their lashing out and they will end up apologising. That's not gender specific though it's an abuser pattern. I was wound up by my partner, accused of utter rubbish with her screaming and raging from room to room, i remember hitting myself as I was so far gone and I had to apologise to her because I scared her! Nothing like guilt shame and minimising the feelings of the 'person you love'.

Without judging anyone, and I sincerely mean that, this is one of those treads that will make us step back and think. I know I will. Some significant numbers. The third pie chart suggests that its not isolated to the one relationship.  As hard as it is, I'm glad we got it out on the table.

(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/mb/domestic_violence.jpg) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/mb/domestic_violence.jpg)

Click on photo to enlarge.

" Do not ask for who the bell tolls it tolls for thee. "

I think people should at least consider the possibility that not all violence in relationships are one way and that in circumstances such as the ones we've been in it's not always as straight forward as "why didn't you just walk away".

What we have been through are war like conditions. That's not bravado. Many here suffer from PTSD just like some soldiers do. Someone waged a war on our souls and we are still living in it. Condemnations, moral high ground and dogma is not a solution.

From a personal point of view I think the quotes from Dr Ola Barnett are appalling.

The thing is, we could and should have walked away instead of going voluntarily into a war zone. Nobody forced us to participate and stay until we hit our breaking point.

No protests from me on that point. But the fact remains that we all did, to varying degrees, and here we are putting the pieces together. I still don't believe that condemnations and dogma is the way forward for anyone.

If some destructive behaviours during our relationships are met with understanding but others are condemned and shamed then that is a double standard. Is that what this forum is about? If it is I will leave now.

I agree. We tend to be more sympathetic with those who have a long history of wrecking lives. None of us should be condemned for a momentary loss of self-control.

What i am having great trouble with is what is the implied by dont hit a woman... . i.e. it is OK! in some way for a woman to hit a man,The double standard is mind bogling Nor do I think it is ok to judge another person for there actions with out really knowing what happened that is for them an there god to sought out, you should not have to kow tow to anyone on this forum

I said yes on the survey to being phy. hit by my male partner, but that was once.  Once in ten years.

Emotions run rampant and people get hurt with BPD. 

Guilt only makes things worse, but understanding and forgiveness, give us strength.

That's why we work at taming the beast, to stay safe!

If hitting happens, whether you are male or female, something is wrong, and you need to either get out or get better.  Male or female.

and that's my 2 cents.

c.

I did not take part in the poll. It's too late now but since the top question doesn't state that violence occurred with a BPD partner it's not specific enough for me.

You're absolutely right. There are many situations where violence in a relationship isn't one way. A lot of abusive relationships are mutually abusive. I get that there are circumstances and situations where "just walk away" is a lot easy said than done. Does that really make violence the right choice? What happened to "Two wrongs don't make a right"? This does seem a bit like trying to excuse our bad choices. Yes, our exes often did things to provoke our anger. How we deal with our anger is up to us. If it's not okay for our exes to become violent with us because they are emotionally overwhelmed, why is it okay for us?

I'm not trying to damn or condemn anyone for slipping up and making a bad choice. We all flub things up at some point. Making a mistake doesn't make us monsters. It makes us people that made the wrong choice. But is the right way of dealing with those bad choices coming up with justifications, or is it admitting we made the wrong choice and taking responsibility for our actions? Are we better off figuring out where we went wrong, or coming up with reasons why what we did wasn't really that bad?

You still, after my many attempts, work on the assumption that I am justifying hitting my ex. So where do I go? Make my point again or just leave you to your assumption?

Also there are some people from the staying forum in here confusing the issue. It's their right to post of course but their experience of physical abuse from their BPD partner is off topic.

Same here…no posturing or bravado intended.  As a former ambassador on this site, I should have used tools better suited to approach the topic in a more tactful manner.  However, a thread having originally started off with a comment about knocking someone’s teeth out usually attracts some moderator attention here, which it eventually did.  Turning the thread into a poll was a helpful way of getting the conversation moved into a much more productive direction, however heated it has become. 

I'm sorry Hollande. I guess I'm just not understanding what your point is. I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I really am trying to understand. Is your point that in an abusive relationship there are mitigating circumstances? That the abuse we suffer is similar to the abuse of a battered wife who shoots her husband? And if we don't judge someone in that position, why should we be judged? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I am just trying to understand what your core point is.

I'm saying that I lost my self control in circumstances that were so extreme that every day moral standards shouldn't apply. If that's not good enough for you then we can agree to disagree.

Normally we would pull a member out for not heeding a moderators warning, but Mr Hollande, you're demonstrating the very type of thing that leads to aggression.

I don't usually re-share my personal story (my posts as a member are here for anyone who wants to read back), but I voted yes for physical violence in prior relationship.

30 years ago, during an argument in the car, I punched the passenger seat that my wife was sitting in. I had plenty of reasons. She was pushing my buttons. I was taking prescription steroids for a medical condition at the time. Understandable, right?

For me, no. Those are just excuses.  If those excuses weren't there that day, I could have found others.

That event, that day, changed my life. I realized that it was a lot more than just one bad act on one day. We don't just wake up on a Tuesday morning and impulsively injure (or threaten) someone we love. We worked up to that point, one step at a time. And some keep going. Dominance and control.

What matters here today is not so much what we did - these relationships are over and past - if we were arrested, that too, is past - if we were raised in this environment, we are are own men now - all that matters today is who we see in the mirror.

For the men (I'll let a women address the females  *)), it's one thing to stand our ground against an outside aggressor, quite another to turn that power on our sweetheart, our baby, or our puppies.

Some years later I dated a women who had been in a relationship where she was threatened to be hit - never hit - by a boyfriend 20 years prior.  One day, we were having a mild disagreement and I raised my hand to scratch my head and she instinctively covered her face and dropped to her knees.

Is there a place for intimidation in love?

An objection to hitting a woman does not imply the opposite is, in fact, acceptable.  I don't believe that anyone in this thread has intended to share that opinion, though I should only speak for myself in stating that definitively.  Ideally, the rules regarding domestic violence should contain no double standards.

No there isn't. I had it for a long time with my ex. I was scared of her. It wasn't a good place to be and it took a lot of pain for me to finally see it with clearer eyes.

Please forgive me, Skip. I typed a pretty long reply but managed to wipe it when writing the paragraph above. I will endeavour to write it again. Bear with me.

I wasn't sure if the warning was aimed at me as many of my points here were either ignored or not accepted by some who've commented. I also posted the above comment almost at the same time as the warning was issued so I didn't see it. I wasn't out to break any rules so my apologies if I did.


Yes.


For me yes.

For me to hit someone else that day would have meant having a parallel 5 year abusive relationship with someone else with BPD and it culminating in alcohol fuelled non stop verbal abuse. Hypothetically possible but only hypothetical.


I didn't seek to control or dominate my ex. I believed for too long that she was reliable, capable and mature enough to run her own life. She saw that as carte blanche to sleep around and all the other BS. The trust I had in her was ultimately at my expense.

You're right about things leading up to that event. I played my part as did she. I don't feel sorry for her. I can feel sorry for the child that was abused by her parents many years ago but I don't feel sorry for the monster who hurts and destroys people who love her.


When I look in the mirror I see a caring and generous person who loved and suffered for it. I see a person who is picking himself up and carrying on with life. I see a person with flaws and weaknesses like everyone else. I don't see a "batterer".


She wasn't my sweetheart. She's not anyone's sweetheart. She is a monster who destroys and hurts the people who love her.

My sweetheart is the girl I'm with now. The one who doesn't keep hurting and betraying me. My former sweethearts are the many healthy women I've been with who were and are not like my BPD ex. I've never laid a hand on either of them.

OK. I hope you feel that you have been heard, now.

Let's let some other members speak on the subject without rebuttal.   :)

(https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/mb/domestic_violence.jpg) (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/images/mb/domestic_violence.jpg)

Click on photo to enlarge.

Without condoning or excusing violence on any level, the NIMH reports almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent.  Interestingly, this is consistent with the survey here.

The report also points out that when only one partner is the "hitter", 80% of the time it is a women - which also lines up with the survey.

It's sad that 24% of relationships are this broken.  

As staff, we will be working on more tools and material to help members deal with this.

At the end of the day, we are each responsible for our own behaviors.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

There was a bumper sticker not that long ago that was all about "Never, Ever, Ever Hurt a Child".

We can get into semantics (and value systems) -- some parents believe in corporal punishment some think it's wrong. It was about child abuse awareness. What could be agreed upon is that it's not OK to usurp control over a child using force that would hurt that child.

I've been one of the "women aggressors".

I can make the justifications, I was in couple's counseling and my husband announced that there had been more then just one affair partner. With little warning and with poor aim on my part, I threw a half full vanilla latte directly at him. I aimed at his head, and he was able to catch it while mid air but not enough as it spilled all over him (and the chair). I was so angry and I wasn't sure how to vent that anger. I wanted him to be humiliated (or hurt) like I was. So I reacted with what only seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction at the time. I also am diagnosed with ADHD and struggle with impulse control.

Excuse 1, 2, and 3.

It wasn't OK. It's not ever really OK. It wouldn't have been OK if he reciprocated any aggression back. I didn't deserve to be cheated on, but he also didn't deserve to wear my cold coffee. No more then I would have deserved to be slapped for ruining his new shirt.  

We're grown ups and are evolved past carnal instincts.

We also can't justify our own bad behavior based on someone else's. I think that's the bottom line.  

The USA has a law named "Violence Against Women Act" which so far as I can discern totally ignores the lesser but occurring DV by women against men.  Yes, I don't dispute that men shouldn't be hitting women but in today's politically correct unisex world why are men ignored - or virtually so - when victims?  Why couldn't it have been named "Violence against Spouses Act"?

So, with society in general giving more attention and priority to male-on-female violence,  I would say that men in particular have to be very careful not to do anything that could be twisted into something that could be viewed as socially or legally 'actionable' or paint them as 'angry' men.  Court generally deals with people as they are, is unwilling to fix them but is not unwilling to order Anger Management classes or restraining orders.

Lots of energy in this thread.  Talking about intensive issues is always a good thing; we're healin' now peeps!

I wasn't sure how to answer the poll because my husband has severe passive-aggressive behaviors that he used every day to hurt me in some way instead of directly physically assaulting me.  

However, about once or twice a year, I would finally redline and rage - especially when he would do something to harm our dogs and I would physically attack him. I hated those moments.  Sometimes I felt like I was going to die from the fear or the stress that his behavior caused.

Corporeal or contact abuse was not something my husband would do because it would leave obvious scars and prove his guilt. One of my therapists was a bit concerned that he may eventually become physically violent but I really don't see him doing that.  He seems to get more satisfaction in doing something like pouring toxic poison on the floor board of my car for me to inhale and get sick or accidentally dropping a tree limb on me when pruning a large tree.  Yes, he's actually done both of those things to me.  I would consider them both to be physical abuse but not sure if a professional therapist or the law would.    

I allowed occasional violence while (1) hoping it would not get worse and (2) not finding any way to address it - it slowly but surely took over our lives - the old "frog in a slowly warming pot" analogy - and (3) frankly I couldn't bring myself to tell others.

I stood up to end it when I realized it wasn't going to end without a real boundary and instead had to protect myself from focused attacks that had previously been unfocused or focused on others.

Sadly, doing that forced the end of the marriage and relationship.  It was imploding anyway, but at least I had a measure of control over the implosion's impact on me.  The allegations didn't end, not for several years, but at least I had distance, a real protection.

Like many here, I just couldn't hit back.  Afterward I had to deal with undiagnosed PTSD, gradually recovering from "anxiety".

For those of us who grew up with physical abuse, can you remember how it made you feel?

Would you really want to impart those feelings onto someone else? Those of us who have suffered in physically abusive relationships, of course we feel that we want to retaliate and there is nothing wrong with feeling that. If we act on those feelings is when our abusers responsibility ends and ours begins and we give them that power that they have pushed us to the point we lose control of ourselves.

Perhaps the hardest but best way to hurt an abuser is to show they have no power or control over us and we do that by staying in control and walking away.

It is this type of thinking that has given many women the impunity to act in any manner they seem fit without fear of any type of retribution.

This is the most important comment in this whole thread.

One of the critical moments for people who experience domestic violence is recognizing that you deserve to have your life be about you. If you are still focusing on the things that your partner did to you, and blame them for making you hit them, then it's still about them. They made you do something. They controlled and dominated you then, and they control and dominate you now. You handled frustration by giving them control over you.

Also, the comment that Skip made about batterers and control and domination is really fascinating in the context of this conversation. I don't believe hitting someone makes you a batterer.

I grew up with uBPD brother and experienced daily, chronic physical abuse. A lot of it was demeaning and humiliating. I don't think there's a wall in my childhood home that my head wasn't slammed into. I have a lot of disassociated close-ups of carpet threads while one part of my body or another was being punched or kicked. I've been tied up, staked to the ground, barricaded in closets, thrown down stairs. It didn't end until I was 25 and he was 26.

I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if one day I snapped and stabbed him with a knife or punched him back. There was about a 80-90 lb difference between us. He played defense in hockey and I am a women's XS, so there was really no contest, and I was too conditioned for too long to never even try to fight back. If I wanted to hurt him, I would need to use something to give myself some kind of advantage, like a rock to his skull.  

So if I hurt him one day, and then someone called me a batterer and said I had a problem with control and domination, that would be confusing, and wouldn't feel right. I would feel like years of his abuse drove me to it, and that I had put up with far worse for a long time, and might, like some of you here have said about your own violence, that my brother had it coming. But I think I would also feel shame for losing control and snapping like that. When you're abused for a really long time, even if the control and domination over you is successful, most victims carve out some kind of area of self-control just so your soul isn't completely crushed. Guys in this thread have said that their exes wanted them to hit them. I completely understand that. There is this really sick thing that happens during chronic abuse where abusers want to see you react, and you try to withhold that from them. I tried as hard as I could to not let my brother see me cry. So for someone to make you hit them -- that's a lot of power. You guys had to be so weak at that moment.

I guess that's what I don't understand in this thread. When someone makes you snap and beat them up, why don't you guys feel shame? Why anger? Someone controlled and dominated you like that. It must be shameful to be a man who lets a woman beat you up or verbally abuse you. I felt a lot of shame having a brother beat me up, and even though I'm a woman, abuse between brother and sister does not exactly make headlines. Only if you understand mental illness does it make any sense. Similar to men hitting mentally ill women. Makes no sense unless you've been there.

So something isn't adding up emotionally here. I think you guys aren't being as honest as you can about your shame. You feel shame not just because you are victims of abuse, but because you aren't being validated? Is that it? This is the only place where other men understand what it's like. So why stay angry? That's what she wants. She wanted to control and dominate you then, and she wants to control and dominate you now.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone here, I'm just trying to match up my experience being abused with yours, and don't understand the defensiveness about hitting someone.

Unless it's fear of feeling shame?

I used to have horrible anger issues as a child... .kicked holes in the walls... .actually kicked my own mom in the knee... .

she required surgery.

These are not things I am proud of. As I matured I really became almost well a doormat. I never want to get that angry. I know I could. With my ex I let her be mad and didn't raise my voice... .never layed a hand on her.

On me, well I was spit at, pulled by my hair up a flight of stairs and almost had my arm broken.  Months later she actually told me she almost head butted me.

I wish I had stayed out then. I truly did not expect her to come back. Why would I want someone who hurted me? Those are the things I am trying to discover.

I am sorry that you had to endure that.   I understand how scary it is being a victim of physical abuse.


I do not know about your childhood, but many times when growing up in a chaotic environment we can become accustomed to abuse/chaos. It almost becomes normative behavior. For whatever reason (many times love and acceptance) we continue to go back or stay. Many times we are seeking something from our partner that we never got during our childhood.  

My Asian ex used to come at me with meat cleavers/knifes, pretty scary.

Her eyes were just dark empty soulless pits when she was in a rage.

Got a few scars as memoires.

Could not get cops involved as I live in an Asian country and they don't have a clue on these sort of things.

She used to hit me. Sometimes when she was extremely angry, other times just because she could, I guess. She was way smaller than me when it comes to height, so sometimes she would just hit my body, but she would never shy away from the opportunity to hit me in the head/face. One time on such occasion, she hit me so hard that I started bleeding in the area between my eye and my nose.

As far as my brain lets me remember, she attacked me this way about 5 or 6 times.

Other times, she would throw things at me, which wasn't any less scary.

The biggest issue for me with physical violence is because I thought (and sometimes still do) that I deserved it. I justified the violence because I thought that it was my fault that I got her angry or I hurt her feelings.

My vote -

I was hit or phys. intimidated by my male partner

No physical intimidation in other romantic relationships

I would also like to offer reassurance that DV shelter staff definitely understand that abuse can be perpetrated by either or both partners - regardless of gender, orientation, age, socioeconomic status, race, etc. I've spent years volunteering with SANE clinics and DV shelters (the irony!), and believe me, these folks see it all. Everyone is given the same support and help. Female-only shelters will make necessary arrangements to accommodate male victims.

My exBPDbf encouraged me to hit him. He was an ex police officer, very into MMA, and he loved trying to teach me to hit. He tried to make me bite all the way through his skin, too. I wouldn't do it though. I actually felt bad because he seemed to SO want me to do it, but I couldn't bring myself to. He might have been bigger and tougher than me, but it felt disrespectful. He did, however, like to talk about how violent his ex wife was, and I wonder now if he'd have painted me with the same brush given half the chance.

He was never physically violent towards me, but emotionally and psychologically he was deliberately brutal.

In my other relationships I've experienced serious sexual assault, so physically it was a much safer relationship for me. Just not mentally.

You may never find out the full truth about his ex but it is typical for a pwBPD to paint all ended relationships as abusive.  It's an aspect of their all or nothing perceptions.  Since they have a hard time seeing the gray between the good and bad of relationships and Blame-Shifting is a way to avoid accepting fault, ended relationships are described in the negative.  Odds are she wasn't the bad one.  And I wouldn't be surprised if he is now claiming you too, like all his ex-partners, was violent.

^^ This is why I stayed in an abusive relationship for many years.

My current ex on several occasions would drive recklessly to try and intimidate me, throw things and threatened violence that would have put me in hospital, punched me in the arm once which bruised badly although he was contrite about this and slipped out "I never thought that would happen again" suggesting past relationship violence, and once he informed me he was going to smash up my house and proceeded to start on my wardrobes, smashing rails and throwing clothes everywhere. I saw him go for my jewellery and without thinking I leapt in front and slapped him in the face. On another occasion he was saying horrible things and ended with "the most sensible thing I could do right now would be to drop you off a cliff" and I dont know what happened kicked him on the behind. He looked a bit indignant. Violence either way is not acceptable.

I was punched, kicked, slapped, things thrown at my head (while driving on the tollway going 65 mph). I never fought back. Stopped with bear hugs after the first te I tried to get her to stop I let go and she fell to the floor acting like I threw her.)

She was arrested and charged of two counts of domestic battery. The evidence was wounds she inflicted. I could have had her arrested several more times but I think 3 arrests with four counts is enough my three children see her resisting handcuffs is enough for my children to see mommy doing.

I am a ranked martial artist, I am a long time retired street fighter from the south side of Chicago and I have and will never ever strike a woman under absolutely no circumstances. I leave if I can or use martial art pivot moves to avoid strikes but I was cornered I just covered up and took it. I could not live with myself if I were to strike a woman, I consider this a terrible thing to do.

BPS can be extremely violent, when stressed they are someone else and my estranged wife (yes still in divorce pushing 2 years, that's what her arrests will do delay things) gets seemingly super human strength. Two cops had to lift her over both of their shoulders to the squad car she fought so hard.

Guys don't hit the woman, it's the wrong thing to do no matter what.

I’ve just read this whole thread and I’m not sure why, but it made me sob my heart out.

We were in his car on our way out. Leaving the house, I was happy and he seemed to be too. I was hoping it would be a good afternoon. He stopped to buy a couple of things, but when he came back his mood had changed. He demanded to see my phone which was in my bag and when I refused he tried to grab it. I held on tight. We argued and he drove us back home furious, swaying across traffic still trying to get my bag. He parked in the garage, and luckily for me he left the door open. With the car now stationary he once again tried to grab my bag, but outraged I refused to let it go. I ended up caught between two front seats of his four-wheel drive with my body twisted still clutching my bag. He then put his hands around my throat and I managed to sound the horn with my foot, he let go and I screamed for help. The neighbours came to help me. I was severely bruised and shocked. He later blamed it on me saying I should have given him my bag, but he also said that he was impressed with me for not giving it to him. In hindsight, and for safety, I should have given him the phone and then left. There was nothing for him to see. My body was covered in bruises and he had scratch marks. I was a mess, but I still went back.

Another time it was me who pushed him. We were in his hallway arguing and he was blocking my path to get out. I pushed him in anger and he pushed me back. He is much bigger and stronger and I ended up smashing into a wall. I fell to the floor and then fled terrified into a bedroom. He later said that he was very surprised at his own strength when I went flying and he hadn’t realised it. I believe this. I hurt my back quite badly, but I suffer guilt over this. I pushed first. I was out of my mind with stress and wanted to leave. Did that give me the right to push him? Whose fault was this? His ridiculous accusations and emotional dysregulation that led to the argument or me not being able to control myself that I pushed him first? 

Other than this we didn’t physically fight, probably because I’d become very wary. During an argument once he said he could easily destroy my face, “maim me” he said and that scared me, but other than this we didn’t physically fight. There were however many many arguments that were soul destroying. The verbal, psychological abuse was horrendous and I’m still recovering from it.

So was it my fault that I refused to give him my bag? Was it my fault that I pushed him trying to get away? Did I bring all of this on myself? Were we each to blame? How should I have handled these situations?

These memories are heartbreaking and painful. How can I ever trust anyone again.

Just read through this thread. I haven't really posted here in years. But thought of violence from my ex wife recently and popped on here and saw this thread. Though no one here likely remembers me, I will state my life is going really well. I'm remarried; have been for 7 years. We have children. My wife is emotionally stable, and sweet. There, in the time from our dating to present, has been zero abuse. No violence. No name calling. Hardly ever a raised voice. Healthy arguing style to the point where I'm not even sure I'd classify these engagements as arguments. I am happy.

Someone brought up murder, that if you kill someone you are a murderer. But, that's not true. If your life is in danger or the life of a family member, you can kill someone and it's perfectly legal. You will not be labeled a murder. In some states, there are stand your ground laws. Conceptually, responding to violence with violence really shouldn't ethically/morally place someone in the "batterer" or "abuser" camp.

In my opinion, physical violence is wrong. In the case of two adults, it is equally wrong for a man to hit a woman as it is for a woman to hit a man. There was frequent violence in my marriage to my ex wife. That violence included her breaking my stuff, threatening me, threatening to break my stuff, digging her nails into my skin, kicking me, pulling my hair, punching me in the face, hitting me with objects, taking my food away from me and crushing it, turning on lights and television at high volume in the middle of the night, taking blankets off me aggressively to wake me up to yell at me, yelling in my face and spitting on me.

Some here have stated, you walk away. In the moment with her, that was not possible. She'd take my keys and/or my glasses and threaten to destroy things important to me. She'd block doorways. I experienced a huge amount of frustration associated with these situations. Did I feel like my life was in danger? No. Did these arguments go on for hours? Yes. Did I feel fairly hopeless in getting her to stop and leave me alone? Yes.

I don't remember ever hitting her. She did get injured occasionally in the confrontations. For example, she kicked me and I caught her foot and she fell and claims to have hurt her tailbone. I tried to stay away from her or restrain her. But restraining someone that is actively trying to do damage is not easy to do entirely calmly. Very challenging. I do remember feeling a helpless rage. She was athletic but I was a physically powerful human being. It would have been nothing for me to knock her out. And I'd like to think most watching a video of our encounters would likely find that a reasonable solution. I never did it. Anyway, she would have answered yes to male on female violence based on my restraining her, situations like that kick I described, and me pushing past her to get out of rooms.

I don't think it's so easy as to say that "under no circumstances does a man hit a woman."  Frankly, in my opinion, were she a man I think you'd have near universal agreement that she deserved to get knocked out.  I don't think that's a practical perspective for a man to have though. And i believe had I done so or if she thought she could prove I attacked her, she'd have tried to get me prosecuted.

The bottom line to me is that it is not safe or healthy to stay in a relationship that has violence in it.  It took me a while to get my bearings and get out. That was my biggest "sin" in the relationship (not leaving it quicker). Not anything I did in response to her assaulting me.

I'm intrigued that most posters are men who "wouldn't hit a woman" as though this is a logical, ethical issue. I am a lesbian, and all I can say is we both went at it, kicking, punching, scratching. It was horrible, and I was arrested after she called the police on me. This occurred when I hit her as she ripped off my shirt and blocked the door telling me I could not go to work. Unfortunately, in my experience, BPD relationships often escalate to violence or the threat of violence. So, if women are not supposed to be hit, what's the moral rule for lesbians? 

Man or Woman. If they try hurting me I'm fighting back.

I responded that I was "hit or physically intimidated" by my H. He never "hit" me, but the reason I answered as I did is that he definitely physically intimidated me.

He is close to 6 ft, close to 200 pounds, and in his 40s. I am under 5 ft, closer to 100, and in my 60s.

When he had a psychotic break (and at the time it was attributed to schizophrenia, but it very could have been BPD or the 60+ tabs of Benadryl he was taking--daily), he spit tobacco in my fact. The first time was accidental, and I must have looked like Gene Wilder in the Producers. I jumped up and down screaming, "You just spit tobacco in my face." So he did it again; this time it got in my eye. It stung like a mf*****. Calmed me down immediately, got me to assess my situation. He was blocking the door. I kicked into survival mode--how do I get out of here unhurt (except for my eye stinging?).

I didn't back away from him because I thought that might make him feel more powerful, instead I told him very calmly that I needed to get outside, so that I could get calm again, and let's try to work together, so we could both feel better.

That worked. Not that it would work again if I were in a similar situation. Who knows? But what I did after that is make sure he never blocked my way out. For the record, I don't think in this case he intentionally blocked my way. It was scary nonetheless. Very scary.

The first few years together, when we'd fight, he would constantly tell me to him him. "Hit me. Hit me. I know you want to. Just go ahead and do it."

What was weird/what is weird is that I never even spanked my kids. I'm not a person who hits people. So I don't sound like I'm this perfect person here, I do get angry and have gotten very angry with him. I was aiming for an 80/20 rule (per T's suggestion) that if I could hold myself together, be nonreactive for 80% of the time, be supportive 80% of the time, then the r'ship should be able to sustain the 20%.

When I blew, I did so pretty dramatically verbally. I didn't call him names as he did with me, but I was more the "Who the f*** do you think you are like acting like that? You can't call me (or fill in the blank) a c***."

Another time, I was yelling at him, and he pointed to the headphones he was wearing, indicating that he couldn't hear. I pulled the headphones away from his ears, telling him to get the GD things off.

Wow. I write this and all I can think is how much calmer my life is without him here (he's been gone for more than a month. No idea where he is. Supposedly he's "safe," according to his P.)

For all you Roy Clark fans, may I add, "Thank God and Greyhound he's gone."

:D

toomanydogs

Spitting on someone is criminal assault in the USA.  And with a toxic substances even. 

He assaulted you. 

She (my BPD wife), hit me a lot over the years, but the worse thing she did was spit in my face (twice). Found it so degrading and disgusting. Didn't realize spitting is also considered criminal assault. Of course I didn't lay charges, the police would believe her denials, and she might even lie (given her BPD), and say I hit her instead, and guess who would be taken away in handcuffs... .

I don't think the initiation of force or coercion ever has a good long term outcome.

I would never be with someone who spanked their kids.  Or hit them. That's just me.

However while growing up we learn to stand up to bullies.  If a bully hits you, you hit him back.  Self defense.  Maybe if your new dog latched into your leg and was biting you you might hit him to get him off.

If you are a protected member of society (a woman) then you should never initiate physical violence.  If you do, then who you hit should be able to defend themselves and hit you back.

In the case of my BPD ex, and I am sure many other BPD women, they are enabled by the law to behave as they wish.  While she also called the police on every man she ever seriously dated.

So that is what my BPD ex has learned from 16 until 32 years old. It's ok to hit men.  They won't hit back.  The law is on your side. And she goes further and further.  Unfortunately she was hit and spanked as a child.  

I do wonder what that feels like and how that changes the relationship dynamic. A weaker woman, who has a pre conceived notion of what a "man" is, who hits the man ,  with the man then being even more afraid she will call the police.

But one day, if she comes across the wrong man, that man might not be so nice.  And she will be one of those statistics. And people will call or for "more laws" to protect women.

Surely everyone is entitled to defend themselves against a mortal attack (gun, knife, etc.), but when it comes to slapping and punching... .

... .is that a practical solution? How does a policeman figure out who hit who first? What is an appropriate hitting response?

Remember Ray Rice? Ray Rice's girlfriend was arguing with him, hit him, spit in his face... .and he then knocked her out.


Date: 10-2014(https://bpdfamily.com/book-covers/spacer.gif)Minutes: 11:13
Ray Rice Knocks Out His Fiancee

Maybe this is beyond the scope of the board, but these are my thoughts...

We have 2 things... .Romantic relationships that are as old as the beginning of time. And a federal govt consisting of 535 people that pass blanket laws that affect 350 million people.

So as people, we are still hard wired a certain way, but we must conform to knew and changing laws.

Now one couple might read books to each other every night. Go to bed at 7. Not drink. And spend their weekends picking out a book at barnes and Nobles. Maybe they have sex once a month.

Another couple can consist of 2 tiredly different people. They might both have a ton of energy and passion. They might have sex 3 times a day. They might choose to party, drink, and at times that extreme passion flows over into drama and altercations.

So of course, the later couple might actually "enjoy" a DV type relationship. You cant have all the ups without some of the downs.  

In the latter relationship, is the woman "abused" if she is hit? Is the man?  Who is to judge them?
They clearly don't have to be together, but they choose to.

Clearly Ray Rice and his gf have to be together. They want to. She even married him after this incident. And he married her. Is it not their right to live how they choose?

Going further, assuming they must be together, how would she view Ray IF he cowered away after being spit on. If he actually apologized to her, for her hitting him. If he ran away... .She might lose total respect for him. And do it more and more and more. Many men and especially women feel alive with drama.

I saw this little "abuse " wheel, that dictates what abuse is... . And it basically means every single relationship on earth is abusive now...  If you complain about how your partner spends money... If you have a say as to who their friends are... If you act differently for being denied sex... etc etc...

So I wonder, innately, through evolution, are women wired a certain way to respect force?  Especially BPD women?  A strong man?  I mean could you picture Clint Eastwood getting beat up by a gf and calling an abuse hotline.  

How much has a govt changed the male female dynamic so that nobody is happy?  

This is my first day of initiating no contact so its a rough one but wanted to answer this thread. I am deeply ashamed to say my ex would push me so hard and not let up for hours that on three occasions i struck out at her in shear desperation. The shame was horrible but i was unable to walk away. She would hide my car keys or lock me in a room or physically block my way. Then she would be the victim of the situation and i would be made to feel like a monster.

No hitting for me. One inkling of this and I'm out the door so fast. I had to live with domestic violence as a kid. My mother could have qualified for a BPD diagnosis, she hit all of us including my dad. She was a violent person with her hands and words. Had enough of that to last me a lifetime.

Zen606

Hi Kay2,
What you describe reminds me of my mom and dad. She was violent -- could have met the BPD criteria easily -- and my dad was scared of her. When I read "Understanding the Borderline Mother" I saw my parents in practically every page. He enabled her in the abuse of all of us, he tolerated his own abuse and never hit her,  although as  a kid I would pray that he would.
Zen606

No, mine was never physical. It was all completely mental. Everything she did was to torment me to beyond what anyone could suffer and i'll never forgive her for that. She knew what she was doing and that was an eye opener to who this person really was in the end. A manipulative, compulsive liar who had a guy on every street corner. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Just seeing this thread for the first time. My stbEX hit, slapped, pushed, elbowed and threw things at me a number of times. I was obviously stunned and furious, but never got physical with her.

One time we were driving in the car together and she would not stop with the verbal abuse. I lost it and just started screaming and cussing at her for 10-15 seconds and she totally stopped. Maybe an hour later, with a huge smile on her face, she said, "Wow, you really let me have it earlier." Unbelievably creepy, and I think it lends credence to what some of you have said in this thread - for a lot of BP's, violence and abuse is what they know, and that feels normal to them.

I just ran across this post for the first time. Wow. some of the stuff that non borderliners have been put through. My heart is out for you people. I too have had physical abuse. I do not believe in hitting women. I would just take the slapping and objects being tossed at me and  tell myself that it would be over soon.

What got me is that my ex borderliner had a victim mentality. When I finally decided to argue back, she would call the police. No charges were ever filed, but my nerves were rattled. Several times, she threatened suicide, and I would not let her leave the house. She twisted that around by just telling the police that I would not let her leave. On other occasions, she would lock herself in a room, start drinking or self mutilating with a razor, and I would try to intervene. I got blamed for not letting her to have space. I was always wrong in her eyes. Just as the guys she was with before me. When these guys were trying to intervene or argue back, they too were accused of things like verbal abuse. Living with the borderliner was a job in itself. The recycles got worse and worse. But when somebody takes on the victim mentality, things escalate to higher degrees. It still hurts that exactly 2 months ago to this date, I got a restraining order and had her removed from my house. I still miss when she was lovey dovey, but something needed done for my own health and safety.