SURVEY | Was your relationship ever physically abusive?

[Mr Hollande]

Domestic shelters don't mediate or judge - they help people in dangerous situations get to safety.

Not sure about that. I read a couple of years ago about a man who worked in one of those who was fired for being a man. Details escape me now but it was something about the organisation who ran the shelter had a feminist agenda and a clause in their terms of employment saying men weren't OK to work there. I think the shelter itself were happy with him but not the umbrella organisation so out he went. Very judgemental in my opinion.

The solicitor I know, the guy who was about to negotiate to have my ex's debts written off, told me about several divorce procedures involving DV where he has represented both men and women. He had on many occasions negotiated settlements that were OK for all parties only to see them crumble when representatives of women's shelters had interfered. In his opinion many of the female shelter employees, who were there in an advisory role on behalf of the woman, were so bitter against men that they were downright vindictive. He told me of his frustrations, especially when children where involved, over the many good settlements he'd negotiated with much effort on both sides only to be ruined by shelter volunteers.

There's a lady called Erin Pizzey, famous for having started the first battered women's shelter in the world, whose various books and writings support what he said.

[123Phoebe]

Thank you, Deeno and Mr Hollande (and Blimblam!).  So, would you say that the fear of being alone was greater than ending an unsatisfying abusive relationship?

What's helped you the most to move beyond that fear?

That and the hope, or illusion rather, that things would get better.

The biggest help I got was her already mentioned parting words on the phone. Interesting that. Never thought of that one before. And it's so simple.  Is this where I join the ranks of some of the people I've had such trouble understanding before? The ones who express gratitude towards their ex's? Maybe not, but her booting me out of our relationship in the callous way she did certainly played a major part in setting me on the road from the fear of being alone. You see once out there in the cold I had no choice but to start walking.

Thanks Phoebe.

You're welcome.  All I know is that my ex's sure gave me a better understanding of myself, and yes, for that I am truly grateful.  Without their, umm "help", I have no idea who I might be today.  I might be frustrating the hell out of a really nice guy   I have had it in me.  I was afraid to be alone, too.  Didn't trust myself or something.

[SlyQQ]

People should realize two primary things.

One. Violence breeds violence. Wanting to hit someone is not a reason to hit them. Thinking someone deserves to be hit is not a reason to hit them. Unfortunately there are circumstances where it is necessary to hit someone (male or female) and you have to answer to your conscience on this.

Two. Mental abuse has the potential to far outweigh any other form of abuse including physical and sexual abuse by a fair margin in my opinion (including child abusers). It is the mental abuse component of these two actions that often causes the real damage.

[Ripped Heart]

My exN/BPDw resorted to violence on a number of occasions.

The first time was during one of her rages. The events that led up to it was that we were out in the car and on our way back came to a fork in the road, as this was my home town, I knew that both roads led to the same place. However, she was angry that I didn't go the way she wanted to go. I ignored the initial rage and once she discovered that I was in the right, the rage got even more intense. At that point, I walked away to allow her space to calm down, only she didn't. Instead she followed me screaming at me that my actions had caused her to wake up her child and that it was all my fault. That another couple had come up to ask if she was alright so it was obvious that I was to blame for it all. I went to sort out her daughter and make sure everything was ok and that's when she hit me in the face and pushed me to the ground.

Afterwards, there was no apology, in fact quite the opposite. I should be proud I have a wife that is protective over her children because it proves she cares, is what she actually said to me.

The second time was when her daughter asked if I could ask her mother something because she was scared of her and scared to ask. I did and she flew into a rage. I made the mistake of saying that this was the reason her daughter was scared to ask her anything and she poured freshly made hot coffee all over me and caused burns. I stood up and tried to get inside and that's when she hit me around the head with the empty coffee pot. Her reason and excuse was the fact I was stood in the doorway. Again, never apologised, it was my fault for being hit.

The final time was on a plane. She was angry because I brought my headphones to watch the TV and she had forgotten hers. That made me extremely selfish in her eyes so I offered to share. Then she raged because it was about what I wanted to watch and not what she wanted to watch, so I gave her the headphones and took out a book. She hit me straight across the face with the headphones, stood up and shouted that if I ever raise a hand to her again she will have me arrested for all to hear. I never once raised a hand to her.

This was the kind of abuse I suffered on a regular basis and yet never felt the urge to raise a hand to her or hit her. The last one was extremely tempting given that I couldn't walk away, had to put up with stares and nasty comments from other passengers for 4 hours but my thoughts were that I don't know these people, they don't know me or my darling psychopath of an ex-wife so after those 4 hours, I never have to think about the comments and stares again.

Ironically, it was the last one that she brought up in joint therapy because she was convinced it would prove to T that I was selfish and the cause of all her problems. It was that one that actually tipped the scales against her and that was the very last time he wanted to see her. What was even worse, is that I was so enmeshed in all of this that I took responsibility for all 3 of those incidents and even apologised to her in the Therapists office. And there was the start of my road to recovery, identifying what constitutes as abuse and learning that violence at any cost or for any reason is completely unacceptable.

[downwhim]

This is the hardest post I have ever read on this board. In my opinion, it is never ok to hit a woman whether she is a whack job or not. Walk away.

My ex was a former Marine, physically intimidating, with borderline rages. To say that I was afraid at times is an understatement. My gut   moments would flare up right before, during and for at least 24 hours after his craziness. I had PTSD from him. I worried all the time it would escalate to physical abuse but I was definitely intimidated.

And, then he could be so nice and charming.

[fromheeltoheal]

This is the hardest post I have ever read on this board. In my opinion, it is never ok to hit a woman whether she is a whack job or not. Walk away.

My ex was a former Marine, physically intimidating, with borderline rages. To say that I was afraid at times is an understatement. My gut   moments would flare up right before, during and for at least 24 hours after his craziness. I had PTSD from him. I worried all the time it would escalate to physical abuse but I was definitely intimidated.

And, then he could be so nice and charming.

You're right, it's not OK, but when she's in your face raging and hitting you, it starts seeming like a really, really good idea.  Walking away and not stopping and not looking back is the best course; I'm glad I did that or I'd be in jail for sure.  Unfortunately not every man makes that decision.

[Trog]

If they hit you, walk away, and either set firm boundaries and offer the opportunity to solve or just leave. If the shoe was on the other foot no one would advise a woman to even give a guy a second chance. In my experience, many men are pushed right to the brink of sanity and physically abused, the second they lash out everything before that is forgotten bar their lashing out and they will end up apologising. That's not gender specific though it's an abuser pattern. I was wound up by my partner, accused of utter rubbish with her screaming and raging from room to room, i remember hitting myself as I was so far gone and I had to apologise to her because I scared her! Nothing like guilt shame and minimising the feelings of the 'person you love'.

[Skip]

This is the hardest post I have ever read on this board. In my opinion, it is never ok to hit a woman whether she is a whack job or not. Walk away.

Without judging anyone, and I sincerely mean that, this is one of those treads that will make us step back and think. I know I will. Some significant numbers. The third pie chart suggests that its not isolated to the one relationship.  As hard as it is, I'm glad we got it out on the table.



Click on photo to enlarge.

[SlyQQ]

" Do not ask for who the bell tolls it tolls for thee. "

[Mr Hollande]

I think people should at least consider the possibility that not all violence in relationships are one way and that in circumstances such as the ones we've been in it's not always as straight forward as "why didn't you just walk away".

What we have been through are war like conditions. That's not bravado. Many here suffer from PTSD just like some soldiers do. Someone waged a war on our souls and we are still living in it. Condemnations, moral high ground and dogma is not a solution.

From a personal point of view I think the quotes from Dr Ola Barnett are appalling.

[BorisAcusio]

I think people should at least consider the possibility that not all violence in relationships are one way and that in circumstances such as the ones we've been in it's not always as straight forward as "why didn't you just walk away".

The thing is, we could and should have walked away instead of going voluntarily into a war zone. Nobody forced us to participate and stay until we hit our breaking point.

[Mr Hollande]

I think people should at least consider the possibility that not all violence in relationships are one way and that in circumstances such as the ones we've been in it's not always as straight forward as "why didn't you just walk away".

The thing is, we could and should have walked away instead of going voluntarily into a war zone. Nobody forced us to participate and stay until we hit our breaking point.

No protests from me on that point. But the fact remains that we all did, to varying degrees, and here we are putting the pieces together. I still don't believe that condemnations and dogma is the way forward for anyone.

If some destructive behaviours during our relationships are met with understanding but others are condemned and shamed then that is a double standard. Is that what this forum is about? If it is I will leave now.

[BorisAcusio]

I think people should at least consider the possibility that not all violence in relationships are one way and that in circumstances such as the ones we've been in it's not always as straight forward as "why didn't you just walk away".

The thing is, we could and should have walked away instead of going voluntarily into a war zone. Nobody forced us to participate and stay until we hit our breaking point.

No protests from me on that point. But the fact remains that we all did, to varying degrees, and here we are putting the pieces together. I still don't believe that condemnations and dogma is the way forward for anyone.

If some destructive behaviours during our relationships are met with understanding but others are condemned and shamed then that is a double standard. Is that what this forum is about? If it is I will leave now.

I agree. We tend to be more sympathetic with those who have a long history of wrecking lives. None of us should be condemned for a momentary loss of self-control.

[SlyQQ]

What i am having great trouble with is what is the implied by dont hit a woman... . i.e. it is OK! in some way for a woman to hit a man,The double standard is mind bogling Nor do I think it is ok to judge another person for there actions with out really knowing what happened that is for them an there god to sought out, you should not have to kow tow to anyone on this forum

[Crumbling]

I said yes on the survey to being phy. hit by my male partner, but that was once.  Once in ten years.

Emotions run rampant and people get hurt with BPD. 

Guilt only makes things worse, but understanding and forgiveness, give us strength.

That's why we work at taming the beast, to stay safe!

If hitting happens, whether you are male or female, something is wrong, and you need to either get out or get better.  Male or female.

and that's my 2 cents.

c.

[Mr Hollande]

I did not take part in the poll. It's too late now but since the top question doesn't state that violence occurred with a BPD partner it's not specific enough for me.

[Rise]

I think people should at least consider the possibility that not all violence in relationships are one way and that in circumstances such as the ones we've been in it's not always as straight forward as "why didn't you just walk away".

You're absolutely right. There are many situations where violence in a relationship isn't one way. A lot of abusive relationships are mutually abusive. I get that there are circumstances and situations where "just walk away" is a lot easy said than done. Does that really make violence the right choice? What happened to "Two wrongs don't make a right"? This does seem a bit like trying to excuse our bad choices. Yes, our exes often did things to provoke our anger. How we deal with our anger is up to us. If it's not okay for our exes to become violent with us because they are emotionally overwhelmed, why is it okay for us?

I'm not trying to damn or condemn anyone for slipping up and making a bad choice. We all flub things up at some point. Making a mistake doesn't make us monsters. It makes us people that made the wrong choice. But is the right way of dealing with those bad choices coming up with justifications, or is it admitting we made the wrong choice and taking responsibility for our actions? Are we better off figuring out where we went wrong, or coming up with reasons why what we did wasn't really that bad?

[Mr Hollande]

You still, after my many attempts, work on the assumption that I am justifying hitting my ex. So where do I go? Make my point again or just leave you to your assumption?

[Mr Hollande]

Also there are some people from the staying forum in here confusing the issue. It's their right to post of course but their experience of physical abuse from their BPD partner is off topic.

[Hazelrah]

I've often wondered if beating up the BPD ex is the elephant in the room here. I hit mine towards the end. It was about as futile and pointless as loving her was.

Our bad acts, in general, are the elephant in the room.  We have hosted the threads about our members cheating.  That is an elephant in some of the rooms.

But lets put it in a poll... .get it on the table.

Surprised this is even being discussed.

Right on.  Not that the discussion has turned that way, but I'd hate to see the obligatory tough guy come out of the woodwork and say 'objecting to hitting a woman is further evidence of the wussification of today's man'.  This site doesn't need that crap.

I will ask that no one posture here - truth, no bravado.

No posturing.  Men who hit women are loathsome to me and I have contempt for them bordering on hatred.  This isn't posturing, it's my values.

Same here…no posturing or bravado intended.  As a former ambassador on this site, I should have used tools better suited to approach the topic in a more tactful manner.  However, a thread having originally started off with a comment about knocking someone’s teeth out usually attracts some moderator attention here, which it eventually did.  Turning the thread into a poll was a helpful way of getting the conversation moved into a much more productive direction, however heated it has become. 

[Rise]

You still, after my many attempts, work on the assumption that I am justifying hitting my ex. So where do I go? Make my point again or just leave you to your assumption?

I'm sorry Hollande. I guess I'm just not understanding what your point is. I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I really am trying to understand. Is your point that in an abusive relationship there are mitigating circumstances? That the abuse we suffer is similar to the abuse of a battered wife who shoots her husband? And if we don't judge someone in that position, why should we be judged? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I am just trying to understand what your core point is.

[Mr Hollande]

I'm saying that I lost my self control in circumstances that were so extreme that every day moral standards shouldn't apply. If that's not good enough for you then we can agree to disagree.

[Skip]

Also there are some people from the staying forum in here confusing the issue. It's their right to post of course but their experience of physical abuse from their BPD partner is off topic.

Normally we would pull a member out for not heeding a moderators warning, but Mr Hollande, you're demonstrating the very type of thing that leads to aggression.

I don't usually re-share my personal story (my posts as a member are here for anyone who wants to read back), but I voted yes for physical violence in prior relationship.

30 years ago, during an argument in the car, I punched the passenger seat that my wife was sitting in. I had plenty of reasons. She was pushing my buttons. I was taking prescription steroids for a medical condition at the time. Understandable, right?

For me, no. Those are just excuses.  If those excuses weren't there that day, I could have found others.

That event, that day, changed my life. I realized that it was a lot more than just one bad act on one day. We don't just wake up on a Tuesday morning and impulsively injure (or threaten) someone we love. We worked up to that point, one step at a time. And some keep going. Dominance and control.

What matters here today is not so much what we did - these relationships are over and past - if we were arrested, that too, is past - if we were raised in this environment, we are are own men now - all that matters today is who we see in the mirror.

For the men (I'll let a women address the females  ), it's one thing to stand our ground against an outside aggressor, quite another to turn that power on our sweetheart, our baby, or our puppies.

Some years later I dated a women who had been in a relationship where she was threatened to be hit - never hit - by a boyfriend 20 years prior.  One day, we were having a mild disagreement and I raised my hand to scratch my head and she instinctively covered her face and dropped to her knees.

Is there a place for intimidation in love?

[Hazelrah]

What i am having great trouble with is what is the implied

by dont hit a woman... .  i.e. it is OK! in some way

for a woman to hit a man,The double standard is mind bogling

Nor do I think it is ok to

judge another person for there actions with out

really knowing what happened that is

for them an there god to sought out,

you should not have to kow tow

to anyone on this forum

An objection to hitting a woman does not imply the opposite is, in fact, acceptable.  I don't believe that anyone in this thread has intended to share that opinion, though I should only speak for myself in stating that definitively.  Ideally, the rules regarding domestic violence should contain no double standards.

[Mr Hollande]

Is there a place for intimidation in love?

No there isn't. I had it for a long time with my ex. I was scared of her. It wasn't a good place to be and it took a lot of pain for me to finally see it with clearer eyes.

Please forgive me, Skip. I typed a pretty long reply but managed to wipe it when writing the paragraph above. I will endeavour to write it again. Bear with me.

[Mr Hollande]

Also there are some people from the staying forum in here confusing the issue. It's their right to post of course but their experience of physical abuse from their BPD partner is off topic.

Normally we would pull a member out for not heeding a moderators warning, but Mr Hollande, you're demonstrating the very type of thing that leads to aggression.

I wasn't sure if the warning was aimed at me as many of my points here were either ignored or not accepted by some who've commented. I also posted the above comment almost at the same time as the warning was issued so I didn't see it. I wasn't out to break any rules so my apologies if I did.

I don't usually re-share my personal story (my posts as a member are here for anyone who wants to read back). I voted yes for physical violence in prior relationship.

30 years ago, during an argument in the car, I punched the passenger seat that my wife was sitting in. I had plenty of reasons. She was pushing my buttons. I was taking prescription steroids for a medical condition at the time. Understandable, right?

Yes.

For me, no. Those are just excuses.  If those weren't there that day, I could have fond others.

For me yes.

For me to hit someone else that day would have meant having a parallel 5 year abusive relationship with someone else with BPD and it culminating in alcohol fuelled non stop verbal abuse. Hypothetically possible but only hypothetical.

That event, that day, changed my life. I realized that it was a lot more than just one bad act on one day. We didn't just wake up on a Tuesday morning and impulsively injure (or threaten) someone we love. We worked up to that point, one step at a time. And some keep going. Dominance an control.[/i]

I didn't seek to control or dominate my ex. I believed for too long that she was reliable, capable and mature enough to run her own life. She saw that as carte blanche to sleep around and all the other BS. The trust I had in her was ultimately at my expense.

You're right about things leading up to that event. I played my part as did she. I don't feel sorry for her. I can feel sorry for the child that was abused by her parents many years ago but I don't feel sorry for the monster who hurts and destroys people who love her.

What matters here today is not so much what we did - these relationships are over and past - if we were arrested, that too, is past - if we were raised in this environment, we are are own men now - all that matters today is who we see in the mirror.

When I look in the mirror I see a caring and generous person who loved and suffered for it. I see a person who is picking himself up and carrying on with life. I see a person with flaws and weaknesses like everyone else. I don't see a "batterer".

For the men (I'll let a women address the females  ), it's one thing to stand our ground against an outside aggressor, quite another to turn that power on your sweetheart, your baby, or your puppies.

She wasn't my sweetheart. She's not anyone's sweetheart. She is a monster who destroys and hurts the people who love her.

My sweetheart is the girl I'm with now. The one who doesn't keep hurting and betraying me. My former sweethearts are the many healthy women I've been with who were and are not like my BPD ex. I've never laid a hand on either of them.

[Skip]

OK. I hope you feel that you have been heard, now.

Let's let some other members speak on the subject without rebuttal.   

[Turkish]

Click on photo to enlarge.

Without condoning or excusing violence on any level, the NIMH reports almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent.  Interestingly, this is consistent with the survey here.

The report also points out that when only one partner is the "hitter", 80% of the time it is a women - which also lines up with the survey.

It's sad that 24% of relationships are this broken.  

As staff, we will be working on more tools and material to help members deal with this.

At the end of the day, we are each responsible for our own behaviors.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

[DreamGirl]

There was a bumper sticker not that long ago that was all about "Never, Ever, Ever Hurt a Child".

We can get into semantics (and value systems) -- some parents believe in corporal punishment some think it's wrong. It was about child abuse awareness. What could be agreed upon is that it's not OK to usurp control over a child using force that would hurt that child.

I've been one of the "women aggressors".

I can make the justifications, I was in couple's counseling and my husband announced that there had been more then just one affair partner. With little warning and with poor aim on my part, I threw a half full vanilla latte directly at him. I aimed at his head, and he was able to catch it while mid air but not enough as it spilled all over him (and the chair). I was so angry and I wasn't sure how to vent that anger. I wanted him to be humiliated (or hurt) like I was. So I reacted with what only seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction at the time. I also am diagnosed with ADHD and struggle with impulse control.

Excuse 1, 2, and 3.

It wasn't OK. It's not ever really OK. It wouldn't have been OK if he reciprocated any aggression back. I didn't deserve to be cheated on, but he also didn't deserve to wear my cold coffee. No more then I would have deserved to be slapped for ruining his new shirt.  

We're grown ups and are evolved past carnal instincts.

We also can't justify our own bad behavior based on someone else's. I think that's the bottom line.  

[ForeverDad]

The USA has a law named "Violence Against Women Act" which so far as I can discern totally ignores the lesser but occurring DV by women against men.  Yes, I don't dispute that men shouldn't be hitting women but in today's politically correct unisex world why are men ignored - or virtually so - when victims?  Why couldn't it have been named "Violence against Spouses Act"?

So, with society in general giving more attention and priority to male-on-female violence,  I would say that men in particular have to be very careful not to do anything that could be twisted into something that could be viewed as socially or legally 'actionable' or paint them as 'angry' men.  Court generally deals with people as they are, is unwilling to fix them but is not unwilling to order Anger Management classes or restraining orders.