BPDFamily.com

My wife and I got married in 2018.   She was happy it seems and appeared normal but seems quite emotional and "off" when she is.  I overlooked it thinking it's just a common female thing.   Early in our relationship, she was reading bipolar articles and said out loud "I think I have bipolar".  I told her, no way you have that.   You seem pretty normal.   I thought nothing of it.

Her history:   she was abandoned by her parents at 5 years old.   She told me in couples counseling she cried everyday for months.   She also said she was physically abused by her grandma until she fought back when a bit older.  I thought nothing if it. 

Throughout our relationship, she would say some horrible things when she got emotional.   She was very unaware of situations and always blame first, ask questions later.  I always thought it was odd.   We fought a lot so I dragged her into couples counseling.   She kept saying I was always angry etc so the therapist for a 6 month period took her side often. 

Once I shut down my anger for almost anything she did, the therapist was happy but told me that she had extreme high anxiety.   Therefore, even if I get slightly upset, she would get fiery.

I never thought she had bpd but she seem to check off many of the categories to be one.    She didn't seem like a cheater nor suicidal throughout our relationship so I didn't think she could be that much of a bpd.

Last 3 months, our counseling has been going well and we fought less and less.   We also have a 2.5 year old baby and we were trying to conceive a 2nd baby in dec 2022.

All of a sudden, I found text messages of her displaying she is having sexual relations with someone.     I kept the evidence with images but wanted to wait until our counseling session before I confront her.   My therapist agreed with this since it was the holidays.

She breaks off our marriage on new years night after spending time with her family.   She faked a stomach ache and was in bed texting this guy she just met.

I can see how addicted she is to her phone as I still live with her.  It was rough waiting for our session.   She kept blaming me for our relationship failure.  This all stopped when I revealed to her I know about the other guy.  Since then she slowed down with the mental attacks.

But she is still in this honeymoon stages with this guy and is walking around with so much confidence and attacks my manhood every now and then saying I am not that manly in our relationship. 

We have a 2.8 year old baby and I am scared dealing with this as she is so erratic.  I told her I just want her to be happy so she even openly talks about this guy around me. 


I've never seen this side of her before.  She has only been irrational when emotional.  Is it possible that she is constantly in this "remorseless, evil" state because she is now emotional most of the time because of her current honeymoon stages?  Am I being split?   Please help?  I typed so much, I may need to elaborate more in another post.

Our marriage counselor was very shocked by her affair as she and I thought things were improving.  6 months prior my therapist did recommend the book "how to not walk on eggshells".  Was she hitting that my wife is possi lying bpd?    I understand they won't diagnose.

She says she is okay with 50/50 child support but my interactions with her tells me something is fishy.  Sometimes she brings up my issues in the marriage and then says "I don't know if my baby should be around you too long"

I am so sorry that you are experiencing this. You are in a safe place, and the people here will be able to point you in the right direction.

I also have a 2.5 year old with a BPD. However, we were never married. I moved out almost two years ago. This past weekend I literally was thinking to myself that my life is finally getting back on track. It took a whole lot of work, self-improvement, and learning about BPD to bring me to this level. I'm sure it feels like the walls are crumbling around you, but it WILL get better, and maybe even easier.


This sounds like a real possibility given the circumstances. Besides infidelity/promiscuity what other BPD traits are you seeing?



I definitely recommend reading Stop Walking on Egg Shells, if you haven't already. For me it completely confirmed my suspicions of BPD. Most likely your therapist did have a potential diagnosis of BPD if they suggest you read this book. My couples therapist recommended I read BIFF, which lead me to Stop Walking on Egg Shells among others. I would also recommend BIFF. It will help you manage your responses in the tumultuous environment you find yourself in. Also in this forum there are a lot of references to not JADEing https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0. This will be really useful in your communication, as well.

Also absolutely keep going to therapy. Even if it's alone. First, because you are going through a lot and a trained and experienced professional can help steer you through the difficult paths ahead. A therapist may also be able to help you with documentation if there needs to be a court case.


Document, Document, Document. Anytime she starts flying off the handle get the voice recorder on your phone running. Document all of her erratic behavior. It'll be especially useful if she sends you nasty texts to make screen captures or recordings of them.

Please stay strong for your baby. They will need you more than ever. Having young children going through a separation seems like a nightmare, now. But in the long run it will be easier, because the baby will not have many memories of an intact family. Hopefully I am premature in this statement and your therapist is able to help you piece things back together.

I recommend you take some time and try to figure out what your real goals are with this relationship/family at this point. Make a vision of what you want and then start to take actions to make this vision a reality. Maybe the first step is finding your own place. Maybe it is getting your wife back into a couple's therapy session and trying to save the relationship. If you do choose to leave, from my experience don't do it with the thought, "We need some space and this will give us time to work things out. I'll go back when we're rational again." Moving out would be a serious form of abandonment and it will be difficult for your wife to see it any other way. For me it amounted to the final nail in the coffin, even though that wasn't how I intended it.

BPD and Bipolar have similar behaviors.  The difference is that Bipolar can often be addressed with meds whereas BPD requires long term therapy that is diligently applied in life and perceptions.  Yes, BPD behaviors may be moderated while drugs are taken but the real answer is intense therapy.


Having a baby typically makes BPD (and ending a relationship) more problematic.  Definitely having another baby is to be avoided.  Repeat:  Babies don't make a dysfunctional person better.  No more babies!


Most people, especially historically, view infidelity as a marriage or relationship breaker.

On the other hand, while she is ecstatic over her new adult relationship, you may want to do as much as possible to take advantage if that distraction to "get your ducks in a row".  Start interviewing divorce attorneys.  Find out that the courts are like in your area.  Select an attorney with experience and strategies.

Most important, this is a time to avoid TMI - too much information.  Your discussions with attorneys and others are private, privileged and very confidential.  Sharing anything more than parenting information could either trigger her or give her ammo to sabotage you.  Oh, and forget being your normal overly-fair self.  A disordered person sure won't be "fair".


This is PD-speak for watch out for what comes next.  Do you have her 50-50 comments in writing (emails, text, etc)?  Save them!  Once separated, she will not be remotely fair or reasonable.  Most of us were perceived as evil incarnate once we separated.

To focus in, what problems are you trying to solve in the short-term?

You're being Split and it's hard to say if it's recoverable given she's going out. My ex did when our kids were 1 and 3. During and for the few months before she moved out, she lived a double life and openly talked about her beau, zero empathy. I was left at home with our kids while she was out clubbing and then into her r/s.

Stop sex and trying to conceive. Think about you and your current child. We will help and support you.

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Welcome to the group!  :hi:

I am sorry to hear about this and also all the feelings, uncertainty, and doubt flowing through your head.  This is totally understandable and normal.  Keep talking with your T, friends/family, and us.  That emotional support network will be critical for you as you navigate this rabbit hole.

Yes, you are being split.  Read about limerance also, it is highly addictive and she is very likely BPD if your therapist is recommending books like that.  As you learn about BPD - she has found a new “favorite person” to focus on, and you will hear lots of disparaging remarks and be the brunt of many inappropriate actions that will make no sense.  Especially in our rational brain thinking about this coming from someone who is married to us and supposed to love us.  When the limerance wears off - she may even try to recycle you.  Be prepared.

Document, Document, Document everything.  Take videos, record conversations, and journal/write down dates and events and things said or done.   She may be saying 50/50 because that is what is on her mind now but it could change to be worse the blacker you are painted.  Additionally, you may want to protect your young kids from growing up in that environment.  Some of us have teenagers, and the emotional manipulation damage sets in prior to age 12.  Do you want that for your kids?  Something to think about if asking for more than 50%, and your documentation will help.  Regardless of what you decide, the documentation and reflecting upon it will help you reflect on what you want for your life and your kids.

Talk to and secure a lawyer specialized in high conflict cases soon regardless of what you decide.  They can educate you. - Be proactive with your life.  Rational and reason will not exist with BPD.  It is raw emotion that can turn on a dime.  If you decide to file first, you can control the narrative on your terms.

Glad you found us, sorry for the circumstances.  Keep talking.

I thought it through long enough and I am improving on detaching from her.   I still have to live with her to finish off our lease and agreed in our counseling session that we will be roommates and coparent.   I said thar I am all about the baby and do not want to fight around him and I want us to be cool and possibly start our friendship and coparenting relationship for the future.

I avoid her at all costs and notice she still wants to do some things that we usually do when we were coupled.  My goal is to make sure we get our custody paperwork done so I am truly walking on eggshells.  We are trying to do it with self help court and avoid spending money.  I am considering using a mediator buy that will run us thousands.

If a "normal" woman cheated, she would normally have some empathy and be nicer correct?  Cheating and then destroying the victim mentally has to be a bpd trait right? 

Thank you all for your support

I doubt that, though my ex did have some empathy towards me in her twisted thinking. I took advantage of her obsession with her beau to negotiate a custody outcome. It still killed me emotionally to live with her for 4 months. Play the long game.

I also want to add that about a year ago in counseling, our therapist recommended us to a psychiatrist who began prescribing her zoloft.  This improved our relationship so much.

The expbd wife wanted me to be on something as well and my psychiatrist prescribed me sleep medication but I went to her for adhd and also ended up getting prescribed non stimulate adhd meds.    

Is zoloft used for bpders?    Is our counselor and psychiatrist knows something and are not telling me?

I'm in this exact same boat.   Trying to get the custody going and will have to finish my lease with her which will be 8 months or so.    I am detaching and trying to avoid her as much as I can without being obvious about it so she doesn't get upset.

Use the tools at the top of the Bettering Board, especially SET and BIFF. My ex was so into her One True Love and a New Better Life that I stopped criticizing her  lack of wisdom. We negotiated the joint custody stipulation, finalized 5 months after she moved out. D was 1 and S had just turned 4. I filed with the court, no need to show up in court. I kept spinning it as "this protects all of us" which was true. I paid for the lawyer.

I want to get this done fast but the ex-wife wants to go cheapest route possible since we are on "full agreement" withb50/50 custody.   I have been told that there are self help mediators that are paid for by the courts- which I am trying to use but the appt wait is over a week from now and who knows how long that process will be from then on.

A family friend lawyer says i can do that but I can use an outside mediator that will cost around 4,000 assuming no conflict.   But that may expedite the process.

Some news, the exbpd wife who has been addicted to her phone for a couple weeks now comes home from work last night telling me she's going to be "single" so that she can focus on this divorce and be more "respectable".   Then she says "I'm ending it with this guy, hopefully he'll be okay". 

She wakes up this morning texting me from the other room that she wants to go on a "solo" trip now.

Hi engiebpd;

To answer your question:


zoloft is used for lots and lots of different things, not solely BPD. I'd recommend against reading anything "diagnostic" into her taking zoloft. It truly doesn't say anything one way or the other about BPD or not.

Instead, like you described here

 
keep your focus 110% on what's best for your child (i.e., lots of time with you). That's great that you can articulate that you want to be all about the baby.

Turkish has "been there done that" and has good feedback, especially about "striking while the iron is hot" in terms of leveraging her obsession with another relationship (or, obsession with "going solo" or "finding herself") to get the best terms for custody/parenting time.

Which relates to your comment here:


One idea is that you can do an "initial consultation" with a lawyer or two, for a lower cost and NOT equivalent to hiring a L/putting a L on retainer. You call them up, describe your situation, and you can either talk on the phone about it right then, or schedule a meeting (remote or in person) where you bring in your paperwork and the L can check it out and briefly give feedback on "this is how I'd do it if you hired me".

Note, this isn't you doing an initial consultation for you and your kid's mom together. This is you, doing what you want and need to do for you, because it's important to you. It doesn't matter that she doesn't want to get it done quickly -- you can take your own steps to protect your own interests (and your kid's interests). I would recommend against telling her that you're doing that. Sure, if you were still healthily together, you would share more. Now, though, as you unwind the relationship... it is OK to protect yourself and do your own priorities. It isn't "hurting her" or "unfriendly" or "uncooperative" for you to do what you need to do.

So -- you can bring in the current proposed custody and parenting time agreement, and the L you are doing the "initial consultation" with can tell you "if you were my client this would look pretty good" or "if we work together I would definitely change parts A B & C because they will come back to bite you".

I am assuming that you have an actual, specific, detailed parenting plan and custody agreement? This is absolutely critical if you suspect your kid's mom has a PD.

I'll wrap things up for now...

Thanks for keeping us posted on developments --

kells76

My ex wanted to go "East Side" (joke about our borderline ghetto) and not go to court. "You can just pay me X/month" a reasonable amount. No. Way.

I hired a lawyer, and spun it as I said earlier. That was true. It was about $1800 in 2014, the  attorney wrote a boiler plate stipulation for joint custody and CS which closely matched what I calculated on the California state website. After some back and forth my ex agreed. She was served by mail which avoided possible humiliation of a process server (which even could have been one of her brothers, less humiliating). She eventually had to show up at the lawyer's office to sign final documents, but KID GLOVES.

My ex was relieved that she didn't need to show up in court, I think to save face as she tried to keep that she was leaving me for her young college football jock stud  :( secret even from her friends who encouraged Eat, Pray, Love. I had a journal which I would have submitted as evidence... my ex loved court, too (TPOs against her prior bf and her husband's brother). The core emotional response of a pwBPD is to avoid shame, so I did my part.

As kells76 said, strike while the iron is hot!  As in my case, there isn't punishment here, and deserving's got nothing to do with it. It's to protect all of you and to preserve the family. You'll still be a family, even apart.

Thank you for your responses.   You have no idea how much healing it is to read these posts.  I can read a thick book of all your responses if it exists.

I had dinner at home with my ex-wife tonight and was able to obtain more information on her thought process.

The pattern I see in her life is that there are things she wants in life but is completely oblivious and unaware that everything comes at a cost.  Once those costs comes up, she seems to want to bail.  For example: getting married, she didn't realize the married life would be the way it is and wants out.  The way she describes it is like wanting to be single.   "I want to go out more, I want more connection, I want to hike l, skydive etc." "We don't do these things"   She doesn't realize that a long term relationship goes through phases of lower and higher disconnecting periods and less going out simply because we are getting older and we are busy trying to raise a child and make money.

The best example:  having a baby.   It comes with a lot of work and at some cost to our relationship for a short period.  I feel like she may bail out on our boy sometime in the future when I am no longer there due to the workload and life changes.   She seems to neglect the baby more and more during our separation.  She's unaware that the baby drains our energy and less time to "have fun".

I literally schedule and make pretty good amount of time for us to have fun, this was done with our conselors guidance but it's not enough.

Another example, is us getting older.    It seems like she is completely unaware that we are getting older and therefore we are not the same couple as we were in our late 20s to 30s.  She keeps making statements like "before us, I used to go out so much more,"

Everything she wants seems like shes fantasizing of being younger without a child.

She would point out a couple that are in love and that we are not anything like them.  The couples she usually points out are couples that are still in their honeymoon stages and childless.

She seems to really lean on her emotions to make decisions l. "I feel this, therefore it is that".   We are both reaching our 40s and we simply get tired going out past 10pm with a baby.  But she believes it is a problematic in our relationship.

It's as though she's going through some kind of midlife crisis but since she has zero awareness, she cannot sit and think why things are the way they are in reality.

What do you guys make out of this?   I am so glad I figured this out about her now and are making moves to separate because i will end up spending my life with her dealing with her emotions and behaviors as a result of these high emotions.  "I feel like i am in love with this guy, therefore it's my marriage is loveless"

Throughout our relationship, it seems nobody including her family nor I are able to speak any logic to her.

Isn't this really weird?  Have you guys encountered something similar to this?

I think once she realizes how difficult life is with a baby as a single mom, she may want out.

In her mind, the solution is to get with a young rich guy and all her problems will be solved...

Sorry for the lengthy post, this one was tough to convey.  Please let me know your thoughts.  Thank you.

Engie...the only part I want to chime in on is for you to stop apologizing for lengthy posts or feel that are you sharing too much. No, you are not. It is okay. Vent away. Ask questions. Share. We are a family here. You have lot to get out and the only way you get better is by sharing. I pay attention in addition to the rest of my team as well as the rest of the community. I will jump in if there is something of substance to add, but you keep venting and stay engaged. We got you. Okay? No more worrying if you have said too much...you just let it fly and let us help you.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Your child is leaving the toddler stage and entering the preschool stage.  She is no longer a baby, though you will always feel so.  There is every reason to seek as much parenting time with your child.  Currently she is distracted with seeking other adult relationships.  For all you know then one may fail too and she'll seek another relationship elsewhere.

What the others wrote here, that you should take advantage of her looking elsewhere and focus on strategies to benefit your child, may not be a long time window.  She may be "up" now and somewhat agreeable but likely it won't last.  You can't fix her, she would have to fix herself, generally that takes a professional such as a therapist.  So work with the cards you're dealt and stay focused on what's best for your child.

States vary on their default approaches to custody and parenting time.  Your lawyer can answer specific questions.  But most do limit father to equal time or less.  You probably have have to step forward with reasons why your child needs to be with you more and responsibilities cared for by you.

My divorce was over 15 years ago and I had no control over the temp order which defaulted to mother in charge.  Two years later we did settle on equal status as our custody evaluator wished but... I had one condition, that either I was parent for school matters or we would proceed with a trial.  She caved and that slight edge I had (which our lawyers imagined meant nothing) laid the ground work for further tweaks for the better.

You're the father, just as important as the mother.  Do not "gift away" more parenting than necessary.  Yes, in the years to come she may (emphasis on "may") relinquish some parenting to you... but don't count on it.

For example, very soon your child will reach preschool or school age.  You, as the more responsible and reasonably normal parent, ought to ensure (as I did) that you're the parent handling school responsibilities, your school in your area and you as school contact.

That may be a part of the Decision Making or Tie Breaker status you could set up in the custody aspect of any agreement so she can't obstruct you as much, if that happens in future years.

My ex was 31 when she went out on me, her beau 21 and me 41. She wrote in her journals that she wasn't ready for the stable family life basically. She wanted to have fun, despite desiring babies.

I grew to resented the crap out of her (and I didn't handle our deal with it well) which she picked up on. Death spiral for the r/s. I'll own what I owned.

She's doing better as a mother now, 4 years after she divorced her boy toy whom she grew to resent... because he was a young dude who wasn't mature or stable or able to provide. A blind person could have seen that coming. I told her and she mocked me at the time, natch.

Focus on you and your child. Let her do her Eat, Pray, Love deal by herself.

Hi All,

Throughout our relationship, I find us arguing about the most ridiculous things.  I want your opinion on what could possibly be wrong with my ex-wife when she has these kinds of thoughts.  Here's an example:

I change my baby's diaper, and supposedly I lift his leg up too high.  She then gets slightly upset and says "you are lifting the baby's leg up too high!  Did you know that's how he can become gay?"

My face expression is like 'WTF'  and this is how one of our arguments usually begins

What do you guys make out of something like this?   She makes these far stretching comments often and I would have to explain away...  could there something else be wrong with her besides bpd suspicions?   Thanks

Using logic to explain the bold-underlined question...

BPD is irrational.

That is an irrational statement.

She is irrational.

In addition to Salty’s comment - BPD devalues and finds negative things to comment about the behavior of the person they care most about.  She is devaluing you.  I personally see an uptick in the quantity of these absurd “picking on” type items when she is stressed and/or has limited sleep.  The more “WTF” they are the more I know it is the BPD talking and plan my day accordingly.

BPD is a disorder most evident the closer the relationship.  Maybe some on the fringe, a coworker or an occasional acquaintance, may notice something "off" but you as the person close and sharing a huge amount of private time will experience much more and be impacted more.

Agreed.

Like all mental disorders, they lash out at the ones that they love the most, or whom they feel the safest with.  It is how they function.

SD

I didn't want a second child based upon what I went through with the first. I was hardly allowed to touch our baby son for months. My ex was wrapped up in her mother's Anxiety. Bathing a baby was a sacrosanct event. Any deviation and the baby would get sick or cursed.

It's unbelievable guys.   I told the ex bpd wife that no matter what happens, illl always have her back and that she is the mother of my child.    In many ways I feel bad for her.   She has revealed to me more about the guy she was seeing and it looks like he was selling her a dream.   He isn't what I feared to be which would be a ridiculously rich guy that can bankroll a custody court case against me.    I had anxiety over this and told some friends who did bring me back to reality by explaining how unlikely of a situation that would be.

She sounds wholeheartedly real about the 50/50 custody.   I just submitted a form for an informal mediation with the courts.  If I can get this done without spending money since we seem cordial so far about everything, I think I will be anxiety free.

I just want my son.   He's the best thing that came out of this tornado.   I love him so much and it sucks that he isn't going to experience a life with real parents together.   This was why I tried so hard in counseling for this marriage.  The more she talks about us, the more I realized how delusional she is.   She truly thinks that our disconnect, which may have occurred within the last 6 months due to my baby going through tantrums and I having to work more+ handle the baby.   I did overlook and took off time between us.  But this is standard in many marriages.   She doesn't seen this at all.   It blows my mind.  All I know is that if she can't handle this temporary period when we have a baby, it'll be impossible for her to move further beyond a long term marriage.   Can't imagine when we just get old and lose some more connection, or when real life problems occur.  It's truly immature thinking.

She and I are just light years apart in thinking and maturity.  I made the mistake thinking I can lead her and save her. I did save her but I brought her to a level where she thought she can do better.   And she's into a guy with 2 unmarried baby mommas and is 27 years old.   I just turned 40 and she's 37, and she keeps comparing me to him as far as "energy".   

In many ways, I can frame this as a blessing un disguise.  My boy is still only 3 years old and he may not know what is going on when we we do separate.  It would break my heart so much if he was 5+ and this happens.   

We were trying for a 2nd child all year and somehow it failed.   Maybe God didn't allow us for a reason.  My first boy came through easily.   She did blame me for a "low sperm count" as to probably why we didn't get a 2nd child. 

Our mediation custody date is coming up. Now she tells me she's pregnant.   

She believes it is very new and not with me.   The last time we had sex would be early December.   I am a little nervous by this but I believe it is likely with the new guy.   

What to do?   Help please.  Thank you

Oh boy engie.  Paternity test - you must make sure - it will affect everything (money, feelings etc.) for the rest of your life.  Plan for the worst and hope for the best.  Talk with your lawyer and therapist.

She's only 4 weeks pregnant based on clinic.  So it's not with me

OK, good to know that biologically it is not yours.

That being said, in some states, a child conceived while the wife and husband are married, is considered to be a child of that marriage -- you're the imputed father.

To make sure that you are not responsible and that the child's father is responsible for the child, you will likely need to get a paternity test, regardless of the fact that you know it isn't yours.

A brief consultation with one or two local lawyers would be time very well spent for you.

We still live in the same apartment.  Her current guy is currently not texting her due to a "family" death and needed some space.  I can tell she's a bit annoyed of it since she is pregnant with his chuld.

She is asking me to go out with her to an amusement park for the baby.    I honestly don't know what to say as this is what we didchild. when we were together.   

I am trying to live in the same unit with her as friends and coparenting partners.   I am still healing and doing things separately with the baby so he gets starts to know we are separate.   Is taking the baby and her out to the amusement park a good idea occasionally?   Is she stringing me unknowingly?  Thanks

I will reply with the baby's perspective.  Most people do not remember details from before 3 or 4 years of age, sometimes not even that far back.  So whether you take the baby together with mother to Disneyland, Disneyworld, Grand Canyon, Yosemite or any other special (and often expensive) location, the baby won't remember or care.  Going to the local park, playground or nature area is just fine and in most cases far less expensive.

I would look at my family's albums with our vacation photos when I was very little and what I remember most are the pictures themselves, looking at them and not so much the actual trips.

What the small children will remember most is the overall environment.  Was it happy and calm, did it lend a feeling of safety and attention?

Yes, I am trying to make it as peaceful as possible for the baby.   It's also another reason why I worry about hanging out with her for a long period of time.    She says things with absolutely no regard for my feelings and I just have to take it for the good of the baby

The ex wife no longer wants to use our marriage counselor anymore.   We are going to get our own separate therapist for this divorce process.    This was recommended to me by my psychiatrist.

Will it be wise for me to continue the same marriage counselor since she knows us so much?  Would it result in some kind of conflict of interest?

My ex wife who loved this therapist now hates her.   Maybe a splitting issue.  She says that she is too biased and that she should've told us sooner that this marriage wouldn't work.  She now feels like our marriage counselor has been "milking" us.

Obviously marriage counselors are to help resolve marriage issues and not say "you're not good together".   It's very weird how my ex wiffe thinks.   Thoughts on this matter?   Thank you

If you are comfortable with the counselor, go for it, she will have a better perspective of the situation as she has already met her.  That is assuming the counselor is also on board with it.  The counselor would be the one to determine if there was some kind of 'conflict of interest'.

I talked to my individual therapist on this very topic, she much prefers individual clients as she can do a lot more with them.  With marriage counseling, there is a high failure rate, as the two people often cannot meet in the middle with a compromise on the issue that is ailing them.  Here is why [my coach gave me this article by Laura Doyle, a NY times best seller, has some good points, which I agree with most, not all of them]:

Ugh.

My ex lured me to counseling only to abandon me there to get fixed. My mother with BPD did the same thing to me when I was 12. My ex did the same thing to her later husband, the guy she left me for, a few years later.

I continued individually, spending enough $ for a decent down payment on a new car because...  :cursing: her. At least that's what I felt initially. It was very helpful to me as a safe place to discuss what was going on and to provide me feedback from someone who wasn't angry at me and hurt.

After it was too late, I was accused of not paying attention to get is into couple's counseling myself... this from the woman who before we had kids tried to send me to a couple's communication class by myself.

I broke down just now.  First time since I found out about the affair - I initialized routine to detached asap from there on.

  I had a couple of beers just nowband ended up looking at some of our old pictures.   I know, probably a dumb thing to do.

The thought process that came to my head is as if I was mourning her death.   She is literally not the same person.   It's as if she doesn't remember anything we went through.  I probed her about some events when we first dated, she's all "I don't remember".

She came home just now and told me she feels like she can have chemistry with so many guys.  I tried to tell her, you can have chemistry with anyone you allow into you.   It went out the other ear.   There is truly something completely off about her.  She is a different person now.

She recently took zoloft for about a year, is it possible it rewired her brain in some way?  Or maybe the stressor of marriage and having a baby made her go off somewhere?  It's too bizarre.

I can't respond to the question about drugs and lasting effects.  As an overview, such as an airliner 35,000 foot perspective looking down, it has often been noted that though drugs may be helpful (Bipolar has some similar behaviors but is largely chemistry based) drugs really only moderate the behaviors, BPD really needs therapy.  Medications alone typically are not enough help.

The other thing I will add is that in my own life and marriage, having a child changed my ex-spouse, big time.  As I look back, it was as if before becoming a parent I was only a husband but afterward she perceived me as a father instead.  Married for a dozen years she surely knew me well that I wasn't a bad person but once I became a father she suddenly started comparing me to her abuser stepfather.

So it's possible part of her increased "acting out" involves you or her becoming parents and then, adding to that, trying to have another baby.

I’m so sorry you’re going through this, engie.  Pretty natural you cried and had a few beers last night, as long as that isn’t an issue for you.  I’m hoping you have some very close friends who can also support you in person if you need that.  This is a horrible situation for you and your precious boy.

I’m a bit confused, though.  Why does your psychiatrist think you need to go to separate counselors rather than continuing with the joint counseling you and your stbexW have been seeing?  (Aside from the fact that your W is now splitting the counselor).

It would seem that the joint counseling could be helpful in managing through coparenting while you’re stuck in the same house; but then separate counseling for you IS a good idea.  Does your place of work offer a lower cost confidential employee assistance program?

And about your W’s now disdain for and splitting your couples counselor, my guess would be those nasty feelings lie in the “shame” tied to her cheating and pregnancy dilemma?  Your counselor KNOWS about that infidelity.  Your counselor also seems to understand BPD (recommending the Eggshells book, right?).

It may be helpful for you to look through the tools for “Mindfulness” techniques for yourself.  You can also google that term for online resources.  It’s a really good way for you to keep your feet on the ground during this incredibly trying time.

What is this “solo” trip she mentioned?  Has the affair partner (AP) responded to her texts?  Sorry to ask...I know it’s difficult, and I’m only asking because she says she’s pregnant.

Your thoughts on all of this?

Warmly,
Gems

She mentioned the solo trip.  Who knows if it's her new guy wanting to go with her.   I've been working to detach as soon as I can.   I let her do her thing because I really want her to guarantee me 50/50 with my boy without spending k's on lawyers.

Some news, who knows what is true though.  She apparently had a miscarriage yesterday.  I guess that's good for all of us overall. 

She came home crying today.  She didn't understand why her new guy went to another country due to a "family death" and not care to message her at all..    she's not even sure what is happening between them.  All of a sudden she is less mentally abusive to me while telling me all this.  There was some tiny logic in what was coming out of her mouth.   She's watching tarot cards on youtube -_- and then tells me we shouldn't have ever gotten married.   She says "you need to be with someone more logical and grounded, I am too emotional and needy".  While true from my perspective, I don't think she can have her needs if she wants children and a normal marriage. 

My only concern is my boy.  I heard someone mentioned that she may just sign off on the custody agreement because she is too occupied with her new guy.   Supposedly if he's gone, there's a chance she may backpedal on me.   

Thank you for your concern Gems.  I think the psychiatrist recommendation on separate therapist is probably because more privacy.  Maybe they want to each tell us we have something like bpd but refuse to do it while both seeing the same therapist.   Maybe I have some codependency issues that needs to be addressed.  Who knows.  But also, i think they want me to separate so I can learn to handle the things that are to come from this breakup.   

I've read a lot about bpd so I think I have a good grasp already.   I'm unsure if i want to pay forba therapist on my own right now. 
If the ex is truly bpd, a single therapist may help me understand why my ex says the things she says that are extreme when it comes to confidence killing.   I can see how a man can really lose confidence if there is lack of awareness as to whats going on.

Be wary of magical thinking. My ex thinks that she has magical Bruha powers. Focus on you and your boy. There's also nothing wrong with being kind to her, but focus on you and your son. Play the long game.

I'm in a weird spot.  I'm trying to get this custody agreement signed soon.  The date is coming up.

This ex of mine woke me up at 3am crying saying she believes she is getting played by her new guy.  She comes cuddling into me and wants to sleep next to me.  I was super nice to her and told her I needed sleep and that she will be okay and to not think about it.  She says she got "betrayed" and her heart hurts so much..  "omg" I'm thinking in my head.  I get her to leave by saying i haveba lot of things to do next day. She asked if I can sleep by her in her room.  I said no.  She says she paid for a psychic and the psychic said she's getting played and none of it is real.  ZZZ.

3 weeks ago this woman broke it off with me, emasculated me, mentally abused me by blaming me the entire time why we are not working, slandered me to her family to justify her divorce intentions, having sex with her new guy, comes home and tells me I need to take testosterone etc.   All horrible things.

Please don't tell me she is going to want everything back. I neeed to get these documents signed and move on with my life.

What are your thoughts?  Is she going to now charml,   ask for forgiveness and if I don't grant these things, will she give me a hard time with this paperwork?   Thanks all

Use wise mind - first item under the tools menu bar above.

Follow your gut [logical mind], not your heart [emotional mind].

She cheated on you, plain and simple -  for me that is an unforgivable transgression, I suspect the same for you.  Follow your moral compass on this.

Yes, she is probably going to h-o-o-v-e-r you as part of her extinction burst if you don't allow it.

PD's most of them are about control, especially BPD/NPD.  As long as she perceives that she can control, she will likely NOT sign the papers.  If you can, do it sooner rather than later.  You may need to lull her into a false sense of security to do this, perhaps you will allude that you will do the things that she wants if she signs the papers with words like "I will seriously consider..." - and then when she signs it, follow through with what you have decided to do after you 'considered'.

In any event do the 7P's [Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance, plan for all logical and illogical behaviors with plans on how to handle each.] to minimize the damage to yourself.

I know you see your child as a baby - and I'm sure she does even more - but your child is a toddler blending into a preschooler.  You can be a primary parent to a toddler or preschooler much easier than a babe in arms.

Now that her adult distraction has skipped, likely she will shift her focus to you and/or motherhood, even if she doesn't do as much mothering as she imagines.

Avoid any risk of another baby.  We assume intimacy has stopped, what with the infidelity, but if not then ensure you're in charge of birth control.  She may be even more determined to have a new baby fix her problems (and gain more leverage over you) than before.

Depending on a number of factors such as her level of mothering, how fixated she is on mothering, your local family court's policies and procedures, etc, you probably will have to be smart working out custody and a parenting plan.  Parenting is a long struggle for the next 15 years, so "choose your battles".  Focus on the important things that will have a long term impact.

For example, unless you step forward for a different outcome, most people, including family court, will assume mother is in charge of school decisions.  (Alert - this is only a couple years away!)  Beware of letting school default to her.  What if she wants to move elsewhere?  Even if it's not on the other side of the state, do you want to have to follow her around in order to keep parenting regularly?  If you are the "residential parent" it may very well be the "doesn't matter" item  (now) that will enable your long term parenting more than you realize (later).

Lots of orders may state "joint custody".  Sounds equal.  But what happens if the parents disagree?  Off you go to court, a mediator, or some other professional for a decision months later.  (When I filed something in court, it took a year or more to get addressed.)  So try to be the "Decision Maker" or have "Tie Breaker status" on the important matters.  Sure, she could still object but this way she would have to be the one to make the effort to take you to court.

Okay so he's "back".   He distanced from her because she went crazy over text messages to him for his lack of contact with her.   She's been very open to me about him and even shows me her text messages to get my opinion on their matter.  This is because I said I want her to be happy and I will support her decisions as long as we agree for 50/50 custody and we work towards an amicable coparenting relationship without fighting.   She seems to be on this page.

I talked with her lengthy last night and she is becoming aware that she either has bipolar or bpd.    She always suspected bipolar.  She explained to the new guy that she has fear of abandonment issues and that's why she acted crazy over texts.  Also said it's because she was hormonal due to having a miscarriage from his baby.

She told me that he said he can handle a little bit if crazy so now she's back in this infatuation stage with him.  I am pretty detached now and I am trying to focus on succeeding and making sure we get this 50/50 divorce and custody going.    I just had 1st meeting with her and the mediator today and it seem to go well so far.  She's preparing our divorce documents and then we can lay out the custody plans. 

I have to live with her for 8 months so I'm trying to keep things peaceful.  It's kinda wild how open she is to me about the affair guy.  I'm actually okay on the inside as I know I cannot be with this woman and this is the time to get out while my baby is only 3 years old.   Unfortunately so unfair for him.

They are moving extremely fast and this guy must be infatuated by her beauty. When she told him she has abandonment issues, he says "I'm not abandoning you" hah.   I guess he has no idea what these things mean yet.

She's been defending him by saying "I was acting crazy on him, he's been very busy with his work etc". 

My focus for now is to make sure the 50/50 is signed in place.  Her focus is this new relationship.

We are conflicting a bit on distance to the baby in our custody because she is so unsure what is happening with her and the new guy.

She tells me she suspects he's a bit crazy too.  She told me that I am too stable for her and that I may need to be with someone more logical and grounded (I was shocked by this comment because she is actually correct)   

I dont know how long theyll last but it seems they are both very dreamy during this infatuation stage.   

Are you OK with her oversharing with you like this? My ex hid some things from me, but not really and was rather blatant about her beau. It's disrespectful and hurtful and lacking in empathy. Like you, however, I endured a lot to get her out of the house with minimal conflict and get the custody stipulation signed.

Please check whether your state allows something similar to "Decision Maker" or "Tie Breaker status".  You could explain it in a calming way as one way to move ahead with decisions without having to get a professional involved, or even spend months waiting for the court to decide.  As I wrote before, two important aspects of custody that ought to be important for you are (1) school decisions and contact and (2) medical or at least authority for mental health to handle him getting counseling if ever needed in the years to come.

I felt I knew what's to come the moment when I saw her behavior a week after seeing the text messages on her affair.   I've experienced something like this when I was young.  It's the addiction.  I am unsure still if this guy wants love or is just using her for sex.   She is very good looking.

She is immaturily addicted to this guy and cannot wait for him to text her.    She is neglecting her child and life essentially.    She makes excuses for his lack of contact and the moment he texts her just a bit saying he's sorry, she's all into him again.  It's unbelievable.

I have made the full on choice the last couple of weeks to emotionally distance myself from all this and just focus on my baby and to get the paperwork signed.    And yes, it has gotten to the point where she sees I am okay with all this that she starts to push boundaries even more.  We are trying to finish out our lease.

Tonight, she missed this guy so much that she asked if it would be weird if he comes over.  Lol wtf? I said, don't do that to me, I let a lot go and you know this but you cannot bring this guy over while we have a baby sleeping in the other room and i in another room.  We are still processing our dissolution.   For goodness sake go get a damn hotel or something if you miss him I told her. 

So he pulls up in front of our apartment in a tinted truck and she goes down there for about 1.5 hours.    I srsly think she's out of her effin mind guys.    This is why I pushed myself to detach emotionally and able to listen to everything she says about her problems with the new guy.    This guy has her so wrapped he could just be using her as a sex machine.

She is not smart.  She was calling up pyschics and youtubing tarot cards when he went no contact for 2 weeks.  And it appears that when she's emotional, some kind if disorder comes out where she is possessed or becomes something else.     Earlier I told her, you are addicted to this infatuation.  She says "I am addicted to love"  this woman is closing into her 40s btw..   

I seriously cannot believe what I am seeing.   No normal person would behave in this manner when they have a 3 year old.   

All I am doing is Journaling everything in case this ever goes to court.    At this point I am just looking at 50/50 in CA in hopes that I get my baby without having to go to war.  She thinks I can come at her with shame and the pregnancy etc to take more but I am not going to.  I told her I just want 50/50 with peace.

Your ex reminds me of my love addicted BPD mother who was so focused on her love-life that she basically forgot that she had children…. I think this kind of behavior usually indicates a level of rather profound emotional deprivation during childhood — which certainly was the case with for my mother.

The good news is that there is a good chance that she will be so caught up in her love addictions that you will end up becoming your child’s custodial parent regardless of what the official custody agreement is.

Get 50/50 custody as soon as you can.

Also, secretly find a new place to live, until...

The 50/50 custody is signed get the f- out of there to your new place, manipulate it so she can have this new guy take over the remainder of your lease, and let both him and her deal with the consequences of their fallout.  You don't want to wait 8 months for her/him to lose interest, then she may circle back to you...

She gets what she deserves [a new boy toy alone with her in 'her' home], the new guy gets what he wants [borderline sex], you get what you want [preferred custody, and escape from insanity where she is no longer your 'problem', or at least less of one].  A potential win-win-win situation.

Even though she is f-ing the other guy, you are still her FP [favorite person] and true borderlines have no emotional filter, and will tell you exactly what is on their mind good and/or bad especially to their FP.  Use this to your advantage during the split, gain valuable intel and use it to your advantage without letting her know, and then do it all at once, once she figures out what you did, she will likely go NC and/or rage on you.

Move as fast as you practically can, keep it moving, while there is inertia of the mutual infatuation between him/her.

Take care, document, be careful, and definitely work it to your advantage for your child as well as yourself.

engiebpd,

A lot of what she says is what mine said. Joint custody is the default in Cali. I'm here. Don't give up anything less.

I hired a lawyer to write it out. I kept her updated. She was served by mail, avoiding the humiliation of being served by person.

I did this while she was still living with us living her double life with her young, college football stud. Communication tools helped, like SET and BIFF.

Did I write on your thread how I walked out at the end of my divorce as "residential parent for school purposes"?  My point is that even with "50/50 custody" one of the parents is assigned in charge of schooling?  Don't assume it will be dear dad.  In my county, mother gets default preference in many aspects of custody unless something otherwise is placed in writing.

In my case our Custody evaluator had recommended we try (equal) Shared Parenting first. I told my ex when we were at the court house in conference on the long awaited Trial Day, "If I am not to be the residential parent for school purposes then let's go in to the judge and start the trial."

Mind you, both lawyers insisted it meant nothing.  And it didn't, well, not directly.  But... once I had that hat in place, my son (in kindergarten) had to attend a school in my area.  All of a sudden that seemingly minor clause mean a great deal.

Here's the kicker... During the divorce her school had stated they had resolved issues with mother and had nothing to report to the court.  However, once I was the responsible parent for school, I applied for Open Enrollment so son could stay there another couple months until the school year ended.  But mother had more 'incidents' with the school staff and the vice principal, as I recall, told me the school board had rejected my application for Open Enrollment and I had ONE DAY to register him in my own school district.  Oh yeah, something big had happened, some scene in front of the entire school.

All because I made sure I was in charge of schooling.  Schools often have to quietly suffer with the problem parent or parents, but if they can boot them elsewhere, they will.

I don't know whether your spouse will be high conflict or not, but if you can include a clause, perhaps among other clauses*, that you're the residential parent for school, you will be spared a lot of grief later.

* Other clauses may detail which holidays will be specified on a holidays list, which parent handles religious instruction, which parent in charge of medical heath, mental health, etc.

Thank you all for your responses.   I'm in CA, I sent in a temporary proposal to our mediator and I also asked her about the residential school parent clause.  

Some updates:   we went to a mediator last week and it seems amicable for 50/50.  There are some conflicts that our mediator says we may need to resolve.   It's her uncommitted to where she will live when our lease ends.   She's unsure because she's waiting to see if she can convince her new guy if he can move to our county.   He previously asked her to move out of state, she declines because of our child, then suggests a rich area that is 2.5 hrs from our current residential county.  Which she was interested in and tried to convince me to send our baby to school there.  I said no way so now she's trying to convince him to buy a place in our county.

Over the weekend, she went nuts via texts on him since he ghosted her the whole time.  So I became her favorite person on the weekend and we talked a lot (which was what one of the posters mentioned that a borderline will say what's on their mind to their favorite person and being super honest)

 She did say she wants what's best for our boy and I was telling her that the best thing is that she does whatever takes to stay in our county and in our area that way if he cries for mommy or daddy, one of us can show up to see him.   She "agrees" but who knows as she can easily be swayed by her new boy toy.   She thinks that he is super in love with her so she believes she can convince him and his daughter to move here.  This is essentially where we will conflict when custody signing will occur.

My lawyer told me that we cannot force a 3 year old to remain in the school here for a lengthy time but the judge may see it not in the baby's interest to remove him from an area he grew up in so fast.

So while I became her favorite person over the weekend just because he ghosted her, she tells me just today that she talked with him before work and that he is still committed to her.    When she came home from work, I felt a slight split again.   But i avoided talking to her that evening.  

Our mediator sent us each a retainers agreement and first deposit fee.   I paid mine and signed mine but she was "tired" and will do it tomorrow.  We will see.

I worry her family will try to stall her from signing anything because they are only told what she wants them to know.  Which is that I am a bad husband, unemotiobally available, and that I dont love her... "we dont love eachother anymore"

They have no idea of the affair and that she is currently in a full blown relationships.   I know that they know that she is not that bright so I can imagine them telling her not to sign anything until they see it.  

However when we briefly talked about her family trying to stall, i did tell her it's because they don't know the entire story and believes we can reconcile at some point since her reasonings for the divorce is not good and that she is making a mistake - this is one of my anxieties.

I did tell her that we must do this as soon as possible so that her new guy can try to marry her.   She seems convinced but she is moving slow- guess we won't know until tomorrow.


I've been documenting and taking pictures/videos of myself with the baby on the daily.   I dont really know how well this will work in court though.  It seems everyone on this board is really for it.

What should I do if she starts backpeddling, stalling or not agree?

Do I have enough evidence to do a court order and try for more than 50%?  My family seems to believe so but they are not lawyers.

How can you threaten more custody?

While everything seems amicable, I do get paranoid about her doing some homework behind  my back on all of this.   She isn't that bright and is very lazy so I am acting on this with that info in mind.

Her being "back" with her new toy is giving me mixed emotions.   While I rather him being truly committed so it gets her off my back.  I wasn't sure how to feel when he ghosted her.   If he's not real, then she will struggle and I have to deal with it because I live with her.  If he is real, then I may have a better shot at getting custody without a court battle.

Please respond to my questions above as I am very curious and thank you again for your inputs.

My lawyer told me that we cannot force a 3 year old to remain in the school here for a lengthy time but the judge may see it not in the baby's interest to remove him from an area he grew up in so fast.
Agreed, the judge likely knows that 3 year olds will not remember specifics from this time period later in their life, so living in a specific area really isn't a consideration, so the child will not be tied to a specific location.  The judge will typically rule in what is the best interest of the child.  Make sure that you can prove that you can provide a good upbringing, a better one that the new 'rich' guy can provide.  Also prove that you are a better parent, than the other.  Go for 50/50, and be the better parent.  Do not agree to any changes, just as her family is urging her to do.  However, do be prepared to prove to her family, if you come in contact with them about her infidelity; this can be very powerful, in persuading them, especially if they are not knowledgeable of it.  Photos, social media (if she isn't posting on hers).  Be prepared, I have known of parents of a girl siding with a scorned boyfriend in the short term because of her infidelity, until the mother's unconditional love game through some time later and both were treated equally but seperated.

7P's - Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance.

So while I became her favorite person over the weekend just because he ghosted her, she tells me just today that she talked with him before work and that he is still committed to her.    When she came home from work, I felt a slight split again.   But i avoided talking to her that evening.  
While he is together with her, she will prefer him, she is conflicted between you and him.  So, it will feel like a split.  Just listen to her, take mental notes, and use it to your advantage.  However, do not expect this arrangement to last, especially if becomes more influential in her life.

I worry her family will try to stall her from signing anything because they are only told what she wants them to know.  Which is that I am a bad husband, unemotiobally available, and that I dont love her... "we dont love eachother anymore"
Gather proof for her family of her infidelity, use the BIFF [be Brief, Informative, Friendly and Firm] method of communication.  Just explain that you want 50/50 custody since she cheated on you [showing proof], be friendly wish her the best expressing your desire for what is best for the child, but be firm on your rights as the child's father.

However when we briefly talked about her family trying to stall, i did tell her it's because they don't know the entire story and believes we can reconcile at some point since her reasonings for the divorce is not good and that she is making a mistake - this is one of my anxieties.
Anxiety is only natural, you don't know what is going to happen to your child.  Follow the advise of your attorney, they usually know best.

I did tell her that we must do this as soon as possible so that her new guy can try to marry her.   She seems convinced but she is moving slow- guess we won't know until tomorrow.
If it takes her a little bit to secure a retainer fee, that is understandable.  However, if it drags on, then be worried.  Talk to your attorney for the typical timeline on this.


I've been documenting and taking pictures/videos of myself with the baby on the daily.   I dont really know how well this will work in court though.  It seems everyone on this board is really for it.
That is good.  However, do document her being irrational, that will be more impactful.

What should I do if she starts backpeddling, stalling or not agree?

Do I have enough evidence to do a court order and try for more than 50%?  My family seems to believe so but they are not lawyers.

How can you threaten more custody?
Talk to your attorney on this.  Make sure they know the full story, and follow their advice.  This will be money well invested.

While everything seems amicable, I do get paranoid about her doing some homework behind  my back on all of this.   She isn't that bright and is very lazy so I am acting on this with that info in mind.
This is always possible.  Practice 7 P's here.  "Hope for the best; prepare for the worst."  You cannot control what she does.  However, you do control what you do - the better prepared you are, the better the outcome, generally speaking.  However, if her new guy is 'rich' as you have alluded to, money does talk in this situation, so plan for it.

Her being "back" with her new toy is giving me mixed emotions.   While I rather him being truly committed so it gets her off my back.  I wasn't sure how to feel when he ghosted her.   If he's not real, then she will struggle and I have to deal with it because I live with her.  If he is real, then I may have a better shot at getting custody without a court battle.
Wishful thinking of her being 'committed'.  If this new guy has half a brain, after she sees how she treated you, it should be a red flag to him.  However, you need him to be 'real enough' or interested in her long enough for her to sign the papers.

So he is the "primary parent" of his child?  (So often courts will default to assigning primary parent status to mothers.  Doesn't mean that dads can't get that but that means a dad usually has to step up and seek that.)


The reality courts face is that once divorced the parents will live apart.  No one knows how far apart in future years.  Typically one parent is assigned as primary parent for various issues such as "in which parent's area will the child attend school?" especially when the parents move around in future years.  Or... the various responsibilities (school, doctor, counselor, religion, etc) can be split between the parents.  That's what I tried to explain in my previous posts where I said you can choose your battles for which things that matter long term and yet still are largely 50/50 overall.

The mediator sent me a document to sign as petitioner of a marriage of dissolution with my proposed requested custody.   
She says this does not matter as much until the final judgement comes. 

She says things can change and that my ex wife may reject some parts of it. Things changing could be her moving to another county with her bf. 

I guess the good news is that things are moving and that she signed our mediator retainer and paid for her portion of it.   I don't like though how things can just change.  After she signs, wouldn't it be hard to change unless she spends money to do so?   

The good news is that it IS moving, and seems to be moving in a direction that you want.

However, like your advisor indicated, it could change.  Do not let your guard down, but do continue to practice 7 P's here AND "Hope for the best; prepare for the worst."

Take care & good luck.

If you two can't agree on the terms, then what?  Do you expect that if/when "my ex wife may reject some parts of it" that you will feel powerless and not contest it?  Or step up for yourself as father?  I suspect that if the mediator can't bring you two to agreement then I have a few concerns.

Some mediators, hopefully not yours, may try to fix the impasses by asking the more reasonable parent to give in.  A mediator ought to have the interests of the children in mind as well as not just getting a deal done.

However, if the mediation process for dissolution fails, can you prepare yourself for a divorce to ensure yourself and your child of the "least bad" outcome?

Will there be a temporary order during the divorce process?  The structure of a temp order is important.  Often, unless the court sees a need to adjust the terms, a temp order can easily morph relatively unchanged into a final decree.  Hence the need to try your best to get the best temp order possible.

In my own experience, in my divorce, it wasn't a walk in a park.  I walked out from a brief half hour hearing with only alternate weekends and mother walked out with temporary custody and majority time.  My name for the magistrate?  Sir Bump-on-a-Log. He followed the state and county's policies, procedures and default mother preferences.  And my lawyer merely told me "We'll fix it later."  And yes it did get fixed... eventually... just two years later at the end of my divorce.

She's telling me everything about her situation with this guy.   I am shocked by the things she saying.   She feels as if she's in sync with this guy.  She's smoking weed and drinking with him. 

The bizarre thing is that those were the things we did when we were in our honeymoon stage.   At some point when we got out of our honeymoon stage, she barely wanted to drink and she didn't want to smoke weed anymore.  We pretty much stopped doing any of the fun stuff we used to do.   

It's as if once she is bored, she also stops doing things herself.   This has to be some signs of real splitting here.   I notice that she just loves "new" things.   New cars, new place to live, new toys, material possessions...and once she's over them, she discards them. 

And her lack of awareness is so high that she absolutely has no idea she does this.   

Thank you Forever Dad, I will keep in mind all you have said.   

I lived with my ex for 4 months while she phoned it in as a "teen mom." One night I slept on our son's trundle and next to our baby's crib. Mommy didn't come home until 5AM, out with her beau.

You are a better man than I big bro...I could never do such a thing. To that end you have the fortitude of a lion and balls of steel.  |iiii

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Definitely sounds like 'rinse and repeat' just with a new guy victim.

Thank you for sharing your 'bored' observation, my I never really realized my uBPD wife does the same exact thing - I couldn't quite put a finger on that, until now.  Now that you have made observation, it really resonates with me as well, there are so many parallels on how she treats me and objects.

We had a session together with our marriage counselor.  It's intended for how to coparent from here on out.  

My ex asked me that she's having problems and wants to talk to the therapist about it.  I said go ahead.  The entire time she talked about how much she is inlove with this guy and wanted her advice as to whether or not he is committed to her.  She told her the love bombing things he says and wanted her opinion.    Our counselor gave me a "wtf" look but proceeded to answer her questions.

2 days later our counselor sent me a text  wanting to talk to me and told me on the phone that over her entire career she has never seen a more bizarre session.   My ex literally doesn't realize that she was talking about a guy she had an affair in a marriage counseling session with me.   Mind you, we broke up just 4 weeks ago, and her timeline on everything is obvious and very fast.  

My counselor told me that she thinks her emotions or mental growth is stunted and she sounded like a 15 year old.

She reached out personally to discuss with our psychiatrist because she is very concerned for my ex wife.

Save such texts.  Often it is very hard later on to get documents or records from professionals, typically for privacy concerns (and also to avoid lawsuits or complaints to licensing boards).

Wow, this is an incredible story. I think her assessment is spot on, although I think most BPDs are stunted at about 12 years of age.

It’s unfortunate that so few therapists seem to have any knowledge of personality disorders.

My fault, I don't know why I wrote my sentence like that. I was probably tired. She texted me that she wanted to talk and later revealed that information to me over the phone.   

My wife often displays BPD symptoms while 'in-session,' it happens most of the time with me [it is very rare for a session to not exhibit one or more symptoms/traits of the borderline], the more my wife is comfortable talking about it [I don't judge her, nor does the therapist, most of the time] the more symptoms and traits she displays.  At least the T sees what I am going through, and is taking appropriate action to address it.

The behavior that you have described, I have seen many times, while not in a clinical session, it is on a Facebook group by borderlines for borderlines.  The more severe the person exhibits these and other symptoms, the more they do it, the more comfortable they are talking about it.

A true borderline, has no filter, and will speak whatever is on their mind without any thought for the consequences of their actions.  My wife has been disciplined at work for this very issue.

Their behaviors and lack of filter is truly mind blowing.

Similarly, my lawyer said he'd never met a crazier ex than mine.  I'm told he will use my case as an example of the most protracted divorce/parenting case he's ever had.  He just told me that the magistrate who handled my last hearing (two full days 9 years ago) is retiring and she mentioned to him recently my case was the strangest she'd handled.  He told me the story the magistrate reminisced about was when my ex asked me to bring her restaurant food to the exchange and then she claimed I was late for the child exchange.

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

It's not quite as simple as that.  I had been married over a decade before it really went full scale dysfunctional, though it had been getting worse very gradually over the years.  I did not separate and divorce until that was the only option left to remain a parent.

It worsened suddenly when we had a child, it as as though she only then saw me as a father figure.  Unfortunately, her father was never in her life and she always said when she was 3 years old her stepfather came into her family.  He was an abuser.  So when our child was 3 years old, she was comparing me to her evil stepfather.  I could not remain with her in that state or she would have concocted something to excise me from her and 'her' child's lives.

Would I still be married today if we had remained childless?  I just don't know how much more her dysfunction and conflict would have risen.

I’m sure you had very good reasons for staying as long as you did. All that matters is that you eventually got out, and you deserve kudos for doing so.

What stories like these tell me is that, paradoxically, marriages that include a pwBPD seldom end in divorce. This must mean that a partner of a pwBPD is deriving some benefit from the union, and are getting their needs met in spite of how destructive the relationship is.

I am going to push back a little bit.  I am remaining in the relationship for a few reasons.

1.  I am staying for the benefit of my children.  If I were to leave, they would become NC - no contact when they become adults; I am performing damage control to reversing/reducing the extreme psychological [weeks away from death had I not intervened when I did] damage to moderate to severe to them.  I know me being absentee father [through my career] and left them with a mentally challenged individual [I had no idea how severe until June '22] of my uBPDw.  Through challenging my wife's narrative I have gained the respect of my children.  I have given both of them emotional tools to deal with my wife's irrational behaviors.  For this reason alone, I will not leave my children with a 'monster' until both of my children are free and clear of this situation.  I definitely feel trapped, as I have the stereotype of being a sailor, and my wife the perfect church lady -- it sucks.  I much rather deal with the devil, I do know, that the extreme situation of being divorced to a potential psychopath.

2.  My uBPDw is an accountant and valedictorian smart, she has maneuvered the money so if a divorce happens I will be financially ruined going from a multi-millionaire to someone with a couple hundred grand to live on for the rest of my life.  Not cool, but that is the reality of my situation.

3.  Most of the time my wife is a very good person; however, when something lets loose inside of her mind, she becomes a very bad person.  A Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde type personality dynamic.  I like the good version of my wife; however, I hate the bad version of my wife.  My relationship with my wife is too bad to stay in, but is too good to leave, so in this respect your observation is correct.

4.  While not verified, my individual therapist thinks I may be a codependent caretaker of a borderline which makes it very difficult to break the trauma bond [even though I have successfully done that in a previous relationship with an uBPD/NPDexgf] due to the intense attachment style of a codependent.  In other words, I have my own mental issues; albeit, not anywhere near as severe as my uBPDw. 

5.  My moral compass won't let me.  I do believe in the sanctity of marriage and the marriage vows.  I see my wife as having a mental 'sickness', and I will stand by her in 'sickness' and in health.  So, I am learning about BPD, and how to treat it, so my family can have the least amount of impact from this very impactful condition.  This reason pretty much sums up yet another reason to stay, and that is to care for my wife's mental 'sickness'.  I know I am affected by F.O.G.; however, my conscience won't let me do otherwise.

I’m sure you had very good reasons for staying as long as you did. All that matters is that you eventually got out, and you deserve kudos for doing so.

Yes, my reasons, are good, but I am still in my relationship with a pwBPD.  So, if you can't beat em, join em.  Since I cannot accept or leave the 'evil' version of my wife, it is my goal to make her self-aware of the 'monster' that she is - this has been partially accomplished, so her moral compass [which is a good one] will encourage my wife to correct her more severe behaviors.  I am also highlighting her behaviors to our couple's T who is in direct communication with her individual T, in order to address the issues that my wife is not directly aware of.  I think my wife's individual T is doing a really good job with her.

I hope this makes sense to you.  I am documenting it, primarily here and with a penpal too in a similar situation as mine.  If successful, I will definitely share a summarized version for anyone who is in a similar situation to benefit from it. 

lmk if you have any more thoughts or observations on this, as I am doing everything I can to better my own situation from learning from others, even though I am conflicted in my thinking, I am formulating strategies to mitigate the damage, and hopefully making it better.

This here is key in my opinion about BPD or possibly a cluster B that is not truly devious.  I know my wife is a good person too and can be rational when she is in a normal state of mind.  

Salty, does your wife change at any moment she becomes emotional?  Does this switch happen when she gets even slightly emotional then does or say something to then further her to become even more emotional and thus becomes an awful person?

My counselor told me last week that she was surprised by this sudden change from my ex wife.  My counselor said, there are times in the session where she is levelheaded.  Our counselor came up with some strategies to bring us into a place where we were no longer arguing and fighting (which was driving me insane in our relationship and exhausting for me).  The stableness of our relationship was doing something internally to my wife.  She is addicted to friction and chaos but is unaware of it.

The problem with my ex wife with recent events is that I learned that she can be easily manipulated.   Salty, you have a rough situation as you say your wife is smart.   I have read on forums that many bpd women are quite smart.  My ex wife is not smart at all.  She jumps to conclusions and gets upset when someone tries to show logic or evidence.  She is reads deeply into astrology and anything that is just vague - usually something that is easy to understand and not specific.   She's also a feel type person "i feel this, therefore, it is this".  

She feels like she and this guy has a strong connection but is completely unaware that they're just in the infatuation stage.  We all can get into an infatuation stage with almost anyone if we allow it to happen.  She sees our temporary disconnect (because we are both exhausted from working and having a 1-2 year old baby) as if we were never in love.   She totally blocked off the memories of our infatuation stage - possibly to convince her that this divorce needs to happen.   I know that it will hit her hard later because this tends to happen to bpd women when they have time to reflect and they get into friction with new victim.

Although I will take some responsibility for our disconnect.  I overlooked it a little bit as I was spending too much time trying to make money and taking care of our baby that was going through temper tantrums.  I was exhausted every single day.  Our counselor made gave my ex wife a schedule for us to spend time together because my ex wife always feels like it was never enough.  

She needs to take accountability that she never really expressed this disconnect in counseling.  She kept saying we are doing great!   Which then makes me overlook even further thinking that she should know that we are both just tired and this is a temporary phase.   Once the baby is in school more, we would have more time to ourselves.   I was wrong!  I was vocal about this many times too but it didn't matter.

Due to my ex wife's weakness, she allowed a man to sweet talk her and then infiltrate her emotions.  She was lacking attention and this guy gave that to her.   She has become attached and obsessed over this guy.  She won't listen to me or our counselor or anyone at this point if we were to tell her that this is not real love.  Because it's her feeling, it's absolute.   Everything wrong he does, she defends him.  He love bombed her so much in the beginning and promised her this "amazing" life with him, she discarded me immediately and slandered me awfully because she needs to have strong reasons to divorce me to her family and friends - since they do not know about the affair.  

She thought this guy was rich, but he's actually not that rich.  I suspect the family  thinks something is off though.  The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.

Salty, I feel for you.  I have to consider that I am in somewhat of a lucky position if things go the way I hope it goes with my custody situation.  My child is young enough to not remember we separate.  This was at the top of my mind when making any decision.   There was a 2 - 3 day period where this guy ghosted my exwife and she even mentioned reconciliation with me.  I'm said "absolutely not".   She is now forced to be committed to this guy or find someone else - which she is also now on dating sites to distract herself from when this guy ignores here for a couple of days.  My reason for this is not a selfish one.  I know her well enough now that she will leave me at any point in our marriage and I ABSOLUTELY cannot let her do this when my child is older.  If she does this to him at 5 years old, I will be so crushed for him.   I am already crushed for him, but this timing is the best at any point.

You are a strong person Salty because I know what you are doing for the best interest for your kids.  You are strategically making it work so that your kids won't be ruined.  This is also one of the reasons why I am trying to finish off my lease with her.  It's so that when we move, my 3 year old will see us both packing our stuff and moving to different places.   I don't want him to see one of us leave all of a sudden.  I made sure to spend time with him without her and be in my room most of the time.  She sometimes tries to drag me out to an amusement park with him.  I don't want to reopen a wound.  

For me, if this separation is inevitable, this is the time to rip off that badaid as it'll be in the best interest for my baby and also myself.  And she wants it because she is in lala land with this guy.   I told her that if she were to marry him, obviously we have to be fast with our divorce and custody.  She agreessssssssssssssssssssss

This sounds familiar. My ex wrote in her journals, "I wasn't ready for this!" 31 years old  :(

She married barely out of his teens boy-toy and they both got caught up in an insurance MLM where they'd get rich. Right. She grew to resent him soon after she realized she had become The Provider. Then mutual DV (which I predicted and told her) and a late night tearful call, "I never should have left you!" Maybe I was boring to her and maybe I couldn't compete with a young college football stud, but that's fantasy substituted for the reality of running a home with a baby and a 3 year old.

I'll give her some credit for working on her past trauma. It's too bad our family as it was had to be destroyed and also her then marriage to her dream man.

There's nothing wrong with being kind to your wife, but divorce by design is adversarial. Protect you and protect your child.

Hijacking is against guidelines so I'll keep this short: my ex once told me about her aunt and uncle. Years ago, they both decided to remain in the same home, but do their own things. I really think that my ex would have stayed many months or even longer if I hadn't pushed her out. Two of ex's female cousins have major emotional issues to this day and I can't help but think his they grew up affecting them. Similarly, so were my ex, her older brother , and her slightly younger sister, all witnessing a serial cheating dad.

Engie BPD,


This here is key in my opinion about BPD or possibly a cluster B that is not truly devious.  I know my wife is a good person too and can be rational when she is in a normal state of mind.  
Agreed, my wife is that way too.

Salty, does your wife change at any moment she becomes emotional?  Does this switch happen when she gets even slightly emotional then does or say something to then further her to become even more emotional and thus becomes an awful person?
Yes, she changes at any moment whenever she becomes triggered.  Apparently she used to go from 0-100% full rage in less than a second - totally ruled by her emotions - the last time she did this was in September/October.  She has not done the 'borderline rage' since November when she has become partially self-aware of it - nothing short of a miracle on how she can control her rage that was previously uncontrollable by her.  I cannot explain how she has been able to change.  However, and this is a big however, while the 0-100 rages have stopped, the 0-100 splitting has NOT.  She will also split just as fast.

I actually recorded our interactions [predominately to record how unstable and irrational she was], and listened to them when I was calm and meditative several hours or a day later, her emotional state actually feeds on my emotional state - although I was unaware of it while it was happening in real time - I have since adjusted my behavior to avoid her becoming pre-triggered.  A normal person would not get triggered, but BPD is not normal.  My responses would do what I would call a 'pre-triggering' event in my wife, where she would become agitated or anxious.  For lack of a better term, I would call it emotional pre-arousal.  Depending on the topic matter, she would either revert back to baseline, or if I triggered her further, she would explode and/or become irrational at a moment's notice - a really fast response.  Going from baseline, to pre-triggered, to full-triggered would be anywhere a few minutes, to a few seconds, and occasionally less than a second, depending on how triggered she had become.

My counselor told me last week that she was surprised by this sudden change from my ex wife.  My counselor said, there are times in the session where she is levelheaded.  Our counselor came up with some strategies to bring us into a place where we were no longer arguing and fighting (which was driving me insane in our relationship and exhausting for me).  The stableness of our relationship was doing something internally to my wife.  She is addicted to friction and chaos but is unaware of it.

I'm not surprised at all - I have observed my wife's interpersonal interactions for decades and they have become very predictable.  Whenever there is a difficult person in her work dynamic, it spills over into the home dynamic too.  Eventually she will encounter a toxic personality - generally a NPD'd individual, usually a supervisor, at work, and that would really trigger her at home, since she cannot lash out at that person at work, she redirects her emotions to whom she feels the safest - that person is me.  This is a dynamic that plays itself out over and over again.  When there is no toxic personality at her work, she is much more level headed at home.  I suspect you have a different dynamic with your wife in this regard.  However, my wife might have an 'addiction to chaos' as when things initially became smooth after the boundaries were initially established, they were repeatedly sabotaged over and over again, until the past 2-1/2 weeks.  Also, at the beginning of our relationship, she deliberately avoided conflict with me for 'fear of abandonment' issues.  I suspect my wife doesn't like chaos; however, it has become so familiar, when it is missing, something is wrong, so she creates it again - this is the cycle I am currently trying to break in her.

The problem with my ex wife with recent events is that I learned that she can be easily manipulated.   Salty, you have a rough situation as you say your wife is smart.   I have read on forums that many bpd women are quite smart.  My ex wife is not smart at all.  She jumps to conclusions and gets upset when someone tries to show logic or evidence.  She is reads deeply into astrology and anything that is just vague - usually something that is easy to understand and not specific.   She's also a feel type person "i feel this, therefore, it is this".  

You mentioned that your pwBPD is 'easily manipulated'.  Well for my wife, that all depends on how you define 'easily'.  Yes, I can manipulate her using tools like the 'seed planting tool'.  However, this tool takes time to implement, but it is 'easy' to plant the seed as her need is more instant gratification and less strategic planning - except for money matters which is OCPD-like for her with occasional impulsive spending which is really unique to my wife.  She also recognizes when I use disarming statement like 'I hear you' as her T has trained her to do that with me, so I cannot use that term, but I have to use more clever words when implementing the SET communication tool.  My wife is not into astrology or anything equally as vague as fortune cookies and the like.  However, she is a person who responds immediately to whatever feeling she is feeling at the moment with very little logical thought processes behind - in essence she wears her emotions on her sleeve, and she knows it.  When my wife becomes educated on something that her T has trained her on, I can no longer use that tool, as she weaponizes it to her advantage and recognizes it when I use it.  Her therapy, definitely keeps me on my toes where I have to constantly adjust to new dynamics - I often recognize new tools that she has been trained with on me - and I adjust accordingly.

She feels like she and this guy has a strong connection but is completely unaware that they're just in the infatuation stage.  We all can get into an infatuation stage with almost anyone if we allow it to happen.  

My wife interpreted our infatuation stage as 'love'.  However, when she was no longer infatuated, she no longer felt 'love' for me.  She equates infatuation for love.  I know she cares for me, but she cannot equate that as 'love' although her actions speak otherwise.

She sees our temporary disconnect (because we are both exhausted from working and having a 1-2 year old baby) as if we were never in love.   She totally blocked off the memories of our infatuation stage - possibly to convince her that this divorce needs to happen.   I know that it will hit her hard later because this tends to happen to bpd women when they have time to reflect and they get into friction with new victim.
I agree with your assessment.  However, my wife's T's are working with my wife on this, and I do see some progress, much slower than they, she and I anticipated.

Although I will take some responsibility for our disconnect.  I overlooked it a little bit as I was spending too much time trying to make money and taking care of our baby that was going through temper tantrums.  I was exhausted every single day.  Our counselor made gave my ex wife a schedule for us to spend time together because my ex wife always feels like it was never enough.
This is nearly identical to what I am experiencing with my wife.  My wife, when she was splitting me black, in session, in front of our couple's T telling her that I do absolutely nothing for the relationship - Our couple's T gave me a homework assignment to keep score [counter intuitive by any standard of couple's therapy] on how much of her primary two love languages I am doing.  It turned to be 75 and 1/4 hours per week of effort I was making.  After deducting for sleeping/showering.  That left a little over 5 hours per day for me and 'self-care', and all other waking hours 10-1/2 to 16 hours per day were spent trying to satisfy her, which is 5x to 10x the overly generous amount allocated by the "His Needs, Her Needs" marriage counseling book that quantifies this effort to at least 15 hours per week with 7-8 hours done by the man and the other 7-8 hours done by the woman.  I was doing 75 per week, and she was less than one hour per week [now two hours due to homework assignments] - something is definitely wrong with that picture.

She needs to take accountability that she never really expressed this disconnect in counseling.  She kept saying we are doing great!   Which then makes me overlook even further thinking that she should know that we are both just tired and this is a temporary phase.   Once the baby is in school more, we would have more time to ourselves.   I was wrong!  I was vocal about this many times too but it didn't matter.
I hear you loud and clear here, same thing happened with me when our children were and are still in school - she gets too busy with her part-time job and volunteer work to pay me much attention.

Due to my ex wife's weakness, she allowed a man to sweet talk her and then infiltrate her emotions.  She was lacking attention and this guy gave that to her.   She has become attached and obsessed over this guy.  She won't listen to me or our counselor or anyone at this point if we were to tell her that this is not real love.  Because it's her feeling, it's absolute.   Everything wrong he does, she defends him.  He love bombed her so much in the beginning and promised her this "amazing" life with him, she discarded me immediately and slandered me awfully because she needs to have strong reasons to divorce me to her family and friends - since they do not know about the affair.  
I have not experienced this, as it has not happened in my relationship.  However, if it were to happen, I could and would ethically end the relationship, much like you are doing now.  In fact, I did this very thing with my previous uBPD/NPDexgf

She thought this guy was rich, but he's actually not that rich.  I suspect the family  thinks something is off though.  The truth is, she just wants to live an easy fantasy life and that's what she is dreaming with this guy.  She didn't realize how tough married life is with children in general.  She just wanted things without the consequences.  She wanted to be married, she wanted to have a baby, she wanted wanted wanted but never thought that it takes away other things.  It's as if she wants to be single and also be a mother and also be married happily.  It's so ridiculous.
This is the way my wife thinks of me.  I had to work my @$$ off for everything.  She wants to have the male role in the relationship and leave the domestic work to me - it doesn't work that way.  I am agreeable to split the domestic work 50/50, but that doesn't happen.

Salty, I feel for you.  I have to consider that I am in somewhat of a lucky position if things go the way I hope it goes with my custody situation.  My child is young enough to not remember we separate.  This was at the top of my mind when making any decision.   There was a 2 - 3 day period where this guy ghosted my exwife and she even mentioned reconciliation with me.  I'm said "absolutely not".   She is now forced to be committed to this guy or find someone else - which she is also now on dating sites to distract herself from when this guy ignores here for a couple of days.  My reason for this is not a selfish one.  I know her well enough now that she will leave me at any point in our marriage and I ABSOLUTELY cannot let her do this when my child is older.  If she does this to him at 5 years old, I will be so crushed for him.   I am already crushed for him, but this timing is the best at any point.

I agree with you, I personally feel that sooner you leave the better, any time after 5-7 years of age will make it more difficult for your son.  I know you are looking out for your son's best interest in addition to your own.  You are not being selfish, you are being selfless.

You are a strong person Salty because I know what you are doing for the best interest for your kids.  You are strategically making it work so that your kids won't be ruined.  This is also one of the reasons why I am trying to finish off my lease with her.  It's so that when we move, my 3 year old will see us both packing our stuff and moving to different places.   I don't want him to see one of us leave all of a sudden.  I made sure to spend time with him without her and be in my room most of the time.  She sometimes tries to drag me out to an amusement park with him.  I don't want to reopen a wound.  

I am strategically making it work to prevent my children from being 'ruined' any more than they already have, and to do some repair work too, that would not be possible if we separated/divorced.  Circling back to your lease, with your son at 3 y.o. while it will be impactful for your son for a week or two, at that age, all they care about is who is feeding them, and playing with them on play dates.  The longer you wait, the more impactful it will be for him, and you too. 

For me, if this separation is inevitable, this is the time to rip off that badaid as it'll be in the best interest for my baby and also myself.  And she wants it because she is in lala land with this guy.   I told her that if she were to marry him, obviously we have to be fast with our divorce and custody.  She agreessssssssssssssssssssss
Faster the better, do this sooner rather than later, before she figures out she is not into the guy [or the guy is no longer into her], and changes her mind.  If you can afford it, leave before the lease is done, and pay off the few months of your share, or convince her for the new guy to move in, and have him pay it.

Good luck, and take care.

[/quote
Faster the better, do this sooner rather than later, before she figures out she is not into the guy [or the guy is no longer into her], and changes her mind.  If you can afford it, leave before the lease is done, and pay off the few months of your share, or convince her for the new guy to move in, and have him pay it.

Good luck, and take care.

[/quote]

I thought of this and will still consider this.   But only until I get some custody orders signed off first.   I am unsure if this will be healthy for our baby.  It may still look like I took off as he is so used to this apartment at the moment.  I asked my family lawyer that after paperwork is done, can I just have this new bf take over my lease.  He said it may still be in my name and that can be disastrous.   I haven't spoken to the leasing office about this yet though. 

But my family lawyer said this may not be in the best interest of my son.   I'm guessing it'll be because my son will all of ansudden see a new man in the apartment that he is used to.    Surely, my son may see me on X days due to custody order.  But how will that affect him in this circumstance.   I was told that it may be best for our son to see that we (ex wife and i) completely move out and be in separate locations as he sees a drastic change and gets used to it

In this case, he will just see a new man in his own apartment.. I'm unsure if it'll be in the best interest in our boy.   My family lawyer knows I am walking on eggshells well and avoiding all fights so he may think this is the best road to take.   

But yes, many people have suggested that I leave after custody is sign but I am unsure of it at the moment because I am thinking, it would be weird for my son to just see another guy in my room. 

There are millions of families that have split apart and/or experienced divorce and those children can/do adapt to changing circumstances.  They're generally not fragile Ming vases.  Any change can impact them but your child has surely been exposed to some discord already, so the largest factor helping them is you maintaining as much contact as possible, so very helpful.

Similarly for moves.  Millions of families move each year.  The kids adapt.  Even transferring back and forth between two separate homes quickly becomes normal, kids are quite adaptable.

You're worrying about the short term impacts, it is the long term status over the years that has more impact.

Hi engiebpd;

Here's another way to look at this situation:


I think I'm reading some assumptions, that:

-->you have to be the one to leave

-->she gets to stay and have the apartment

-->that apartment has to be your son's "real home"

Those are just that -- assumptions, not necessarily "how things must be". Those assumptions may color what you believe is possible or even worth trying. And, assumptions, for a dad in a divorce working out custody, aren't always helpful.

For example, my H's parents divorced when he was very young. Back in those days, the assumption was -- kids live with mom in their "real home" and "visit" dad occasionally at "dad's house" which is not their "real house". And that is what H experienced, so he assumed, many years later, when he and the kids' mom divorced, that:

-he had to move out
-it was mean to make the kids move out of "their real house"
-he had to be nice to Mom and "let her have the house"
-he could only have "visits" with the kids... his own children
-because he worked full time, he couldn't have "full" or "joint" custody... he had to give Mom full custody

These assumptions have been devastating to his relationship with the kids, and aren't true.

engiebpd, what if we challenged some of those assumptions you've shared?

What if she moved out?

Or, what if you had to move out, yet took your son with you?

What if instead of referring to the apartment as "your son's apartment" and imagining that the only path forward was "my son will have to get used to seeing another man in his apartment", we did a powerful reframe:

"After my son and I move out to our own place, my son will get used to spending time both at my house and at Mom's house, whether that's the old apartment or not."

or

"After my son's mom moves out, I will help my son get used to spending time at two houses, and both will be his homes"

...

While I understand that there are logistical hurdles in every divorce (leases and finances are no small issues), I want to encourage you so much at this stage to consider reframing your thinking to be that you are just as important in your son's life as his mom, and you don't have to "be the good guy" by giving up ground to her based on the assumption that "I guess my son has to stay in the apartment, and if his mom and I can't be together, I guess I have to leave". I hope you can understand that that isn't true any more.

We can be here to walk alongside you and help you stay involved, empowered, not giving up ground, and proactive for your son's best interest.

Like ForeverDad says, it's not where your son lives that has to always stay the same -- people move all the time. It's that you never give an inch in standing up for your son's right to have you in his life. I'd suggest that you strongly consider finding an alternative to moving out, letting your son's mom have the apt, and treating it like your son's only true home.

Don't hesitate to run this past your lawyer, and between the group here, and your L, I bet we can come up with some assertive, practical, feasible ways for you to stay a primary parent.

Lots of food for thought,. Really glad to hear that you are prioritizing getting custody orders signed -- smart move  |iiii

Keep us posted;

kells76

My ex moved out of my home (it was only in my name). She moved apartments 4 times in the following 5 years due to... Lack of foresight. It did affect them, but as the others said, a move or 2 is not abnormal. The kids desired to stay with me at first more not due to the home, but that I had been primary caretaker for them for the better part of a year. If you're focused on your kid, he'll be OK. It's hard not to overthink these things.

I am getting Intel on how a bpd mind thinks.    Recently, my ex wife was completely being honest about her situation with this new guy.  She openly told me that she wants to "trick" him into marrying her.  She said that he is a insecure so she is going to blow up his ego and tell him how amazing a person he is.

Can you believe this?  This is textbook bpd behavior during idealization phase.   But I've always thought it was their natural bpd behavior.   She's sitting there devising a plan on how to ensure she secures this guy.  

Which means she's probably trying her best with wild sex in order to try to get him pregnant with her.

Btw some interesting news,  my counselor called my psychiatrist to talk about the ex wife.   I went in to see her yesterday and she believes my ex wife is currently on manic behavior and is either bipolar or bpd.    She needs to figure out which it is.

She says she is unsure how my ex wife will respond to these diagnostics and asked me to see if I convince the ex wife to let me go with her to see the psychiatrist.  I asked the psych why she needs me there and she says it's to give higher probability that the ex wife will be truthful.   Apparently the ex wife has been lying to her a lot in their sessions together.  The psych tells me she doesnt know what is true but has a better idea of the situation after talking with the marriage counselor.

Btw, I think I'm split now because I told her that she's leaving me for this guy not because of the things she's been telling her family.  

:caution:

Right now you are your ex-wife's "Favorite Person" - she trusts you implicitly with her emotions.  If you go to her psychiatrist [or is it your psychiatrist] with your ex wife - do not let the psychiatrist make a diagnosis [formal, or informal (e.g. you have BPD-like symptoms) with you present, as that may be perceived as a betrayal by your ex wife and you will not longer be gathering valuable intel for you upcoming custody/divorce.  Right now you need to look out for what is best for you.

Perhaps, offer up a compromise, that you will help out your ex wife in this manner after all of the papers you want signed are indeed signed.

A different compromise, if the aforementioned one is not accepted, offer that you will talk to the psychiatrist in a one on one session without the ex wife, and ask you probative questions about her to discern what is going on with your ex wife, request that this conversation not be communicated with the ex wife.

What you shared is incredibly fascinating, I don't even see that level of sharing in the group by borderlines for borderlines - this takes it to the next level - literally.  The hypersexual behavior I thought was to compensate for the 'fear of abandonment' on a primal and instinctual level; however, what you are describing is premeditated entrapment, and is different that the more primal fear of abandonment [I am theorising (educated guessing) as I have not read about abandonment rising to the level of deliberate entrapment] - there may be something else going on there as this is a deliberate behavior versus a subconsciously reactive one in response to the fear of abandonment.  "Wow" is the word that comes to my mind.

I'm thinking that this level of manipulativeness is not connected to normal BPD but is a symptom of having a character disorder, as described here: https://www.drgeorgesimon.com/the-character-disturbance-spectrum/

I was my N/BPD SIL's favorite person for a while during her dramatic breakup with my brother, and she revealed to me the extent to which she was consciously and deliberately attempting to manipulate him. It was quite shocking and I immediately ceased all contact with her when I realized what was going on. 

 

She definitely has fear of abandonment with this guy and I see some of that with me still but the worry is not there yet since I am still living with her and she knows I'm still here when she's home.  I mean, we do have a 3 year old together still.  So it hasnt hit her yet.   Unsure what it will be like for her when I actually move out of here.

I see her behavior when affair bf goes no contact for a couple days.   It's very predictable.  She will start asking me to go do things with her like the spa or amusement park with the baby.  I try to avoid all.  She also is more depressed and drinks more when he does avoid her.  She randomly defends him "wow this guy is just so busy, I know he loves me, but he's so busy"

She openly admitted to him she does not like him going in and out of her with communication.  Shes concernee because he is still living with his baby momma (or maybe theyre together and hes also cheating - we dont know at this point).  In fact, she started flirting and kissing a coworker of hers.  

She told me this "since he's been avoiding my texts, I texted him that I am going to hang out with my coworker, and he immediately texts me back"  the guy she's seeing (guy she had affair with on me) is now pissed that she kissed her coworker and started going off on her about how he's been cheated on before and doesn't want that trauma to happen again -_- (my face when hearing this)   She told him it was a meaningless kiss and there is no connection.  

I guess that's okay with him since they're still talking.  My ex wife is very desirable at her work place so it appears that this guy is actually worried he may lose her to somebody else.

Also, now she's again talking about wanting to pay the lease here and moving out because her new man is uncomfortable with her living with me.  

Also I want to reiterate that we are only 5-6 weeks in since our agreed breakup and all this drama is happening.   

She definitely has fear of abandonment with this guy and I see some of that with me still but the worry is not there yet since I am still living with her and she knows I'm still here when she's home.  I mean, we do have a 3 year old together still.  So it hasnt hit her yet.   Unsure what it will be like for her when I actually move out of here.

My guess is that she will 'loose her stuff' emotionally when she does realize wtf happened.


I see her behavior when affair bf goes no contact for a couple days.   It's very predictable. [...]  She openly admitted to him she does not like him going in and out of her with communication.  

Behavior patterns are usually repeated...


Shes concernee because he is still living with his baby momma (or maybe theyre together and hes also cheating - we dont know at this point).  In fact, she started flirting and kissing a coworker of hers.  

Behavior patterns are usually repeated...  [sounds a bit HPD too]


Also, now she's again talking about wanting to pay the lease here and moving out because her new man is uncomfortable with her living with me.  

Agree to it, once your papers are signed by her, and you notify the landlord once she has paid you.


Also I want to reiterate that we are only 5-6 weeks in since our agreed breakup and all this drama is happening.   

I agree, this is a very short time for all this :cursing: happening.

Do self-care, do document, and do take care of you & your 3 yo child.

I can see why a lot of my friends and family and you guys on BPD forum here advise me to try to find a way to get away from her:

Earlier today she tells me she broke it off with the guy last night.   Apparently they got into a conflict and she got mad at him and she told him great lets break up and I can go with someone else to valentines day.  I think he got pissed or something.   

Throughout the day, she's all "he's in love with me, he'll come back and it'll be all passionate again".    I'm like "ok.." just trying to have a straight normal face on everything she says. 

Later on in the evening, I can tell she's moping about something.   She comes out of her room and says "i get it now, it's your fault".   I said "what's my fault".  She says "it's because of our lack of love in our marriage that i became overly obsessed over this guy and acted crazy on him".  It's as if she forgot he loved bomb her and promised her this amazing life with him.  I told her that's just your opinion and i disagree, but I don't need to talk about this anymore.  She says you can tell this to our counselor but she's probably just going to be on your side about it again.  I'm like, a lot of people will side with me on this one but again, i don't want to talk about it anymore.   She says "this is my opinion and you need to support it".  I'm like "i dont need to support anything, we are divorcing already".

It sounds like if they break up now, she's going to be blaming it on our "loveless marriage".   I dont know if they'll break up because they've been on and off for weeks now.  I hope they dont break up, i need these papers signed!

It sounds like you've realized your own value. Good.

My ex shared with me early on [boy toy/beau] observed her anger and asked me about it." That was months before I got her to move out.

In the "bro world" I'd have had contacted him and told him to run. He wouldn't have believed me anyway, much as I ignored my own indistinct to run before I had a kid, much less two.  Let it play out. Use it to your advantage.

A phrase I haven't noticed in this thread is that a pwBPD typically craves engagement, even if it is "negative engagement".

At some point (perhaps once you have custody details resolved?) you need to step back from even the reduced amount of current contact.

Everything has been okay in the apartment but now I am seeing some physical things.  More cussing even when I am trying to remain calm.  She got so upset this morning over some dirty laundry.  She went on a yelling and cussing rant and while cooking she slammed the pot into the stove and broke it.

I have a voice recorder recording, but I am a little worried this can escalate the more time here.  Any advice?   Thanks

ugh for the first time, my recorder didn't work. So weird.

She’s basically experiencing withdrawal symptoms so it’s not at all surprising that she’s lashing out at you. She’s trying bait you into game of emotional hot potato and if she can succeed in making you feel like sh*t then she will feel better. The problem is that calmer you stay the more agitated she will become.

So what you could do is to pretend to play her game by acting as if you are hurt and feeling defensive, (maybe even pretend to shed a few tears), and then storm out of the house (and stay out for the rest of the day while enjoying some peace and quiet) and see if that might calm her. Yes, this is extremely manipulative, however, desperate times call for desperate measures.

Edit: For more about emotional hot potato (aka the psychological game called Uproar) see this webpage:   https://web.archive.org/web/20201022211854/https://sites.google.com/site/worldeveryone/home/ta-games-using-criticism#

My ex has mentioned that I have become like a parent to her.   I'm taking care of most of the chores and the baby and she's sneaking out with her new guy and going out. 

The argument this morning was like I was a parent.  She comes home from work as if nothing happened.   

So I essentially went from hub to best friend to now a parent?  lol

For those of us when went through the divorce mill and exited (somewhat) intact, our parenting was what really counted over and above everything else.  Often it was a struggle to get as much parenting as we needed.  Document how much parenting you're doing and how little your spouse is doing.  If she sinks her parenting ship, that's on your ex.  With the relationship doomed, accept the added parenting responsibilities as a Gift.

I remember once, just once, a dad complaining the ex often backed out of exchanges and failed to take the children.  My reply was, "Don't complain! Although it may frustrate your plans, Accept the Gift of additional parenting time."

If you are recording for possible courtroom drama, I advise against any kind of 'play acting' - anything you say and do can be used against you in a court.  Remain calm, cool, and collected no matter how irrational they become while recording.

In addition to your audio recorder, use your cellphone to record too. 

If you have an android phone this is what I do to document with a date/time stamp video recording
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=354091.msg13181755#msg13181755

How do psychiatrist diagnose bpd or bipolar?   My exwife has been prescribed with Lamictal.  She's been on it for 2 days and she has been telling me that it has been helping her with her emotions.

When I spoke with the psychiatrist, she says she can't tell if it's bipolar, bipolar 2 or bpd or a mix of any.   If the prescription works for my ex wife, does that mean she is bipolar?


The only thing my psychiatrist said is that bipolar, there are meds but none for bpd.     Apparently, in order for bpd to be improved is through therapy and dbt.   

I'm actually very curious if  she is bipolar or bpd.   

Updates:   she got into a fight with her new guy and he is not talking to her atm.    She is telling me she still loves him but thinks he is a dick now. I'm slightly concerned as we just barely received the respondent side to sign the divorce paperwork that includes the 50/50 everything agreement.   

After that is signed (she would need to) we would then proceed to negotiate the details within the 50/50.. custody, physical, location.

I was hoping this guy would still be with her at this period so she is less focused on the paperwork and more on him.   

I did see her reading the email from our mediator last night so I'm unsure if she plans to send it to people like her family to look at it.  Man I just want to get this over with without a fight

Also, if she is actually bipolar instead of bpd, how different is my situation?  Thanks guys!

Ideally, a diagnosis of BPD or Bipolar would be made using a comprehensive diagnostic interview, plus monitoring of symptoms over a period of weeks/months. I am not a psychiatrist, but my understanding is that the therapeutic effects of Lamictal (for Bipolar Disorder) typically take a few weeks to kick in. Any effects within the first couple days are likely to be placebo.

In Bipolar Disorder, the mood episodes tend to last weeks/months. In episodes of mania there are often very high energy levels, no sleep, rapid talking, delusions of grandeur, and dangerous behavior (drug use, excessive spending, risky sex, etc). And there are typically also episodes of depression.

In BPD, the mood episodes tend to last hours/days, and are often triggered by interpersonal conflict. You might see some of the same self-destructive behaviors (drug use, risky sex, etc). But the behaviors are fueled by different factors. In Bipolar Disorder, the dangerous behaviors are typically very out of character for the person, and only occur during a mood episode. In BPD, the dangerous behaviors are in character for the person, and are often driven by a frantic effort to cope with sadness, anxiety, fear, etc.

You are right that there are no officially approved medications for BPD. Anti-depressant and anti-anxiety medications can sometimes take the edge off of symptoms, but typically the 'core problems' remain. Whereas in Bipolar Disorder, mood stabilizers can be very effective in preventing the mood episodes from coming back.

Sitting here in my armchair, my two cents worth is that I usually describe that Bipolar is typically a chemical imbalance of some sort that meds can address.

With Borderline, meds may moderate behaviors for a time - until the side effects are claimed to be a reason to stop them - but the real solution (well, if there is one the person will stick with) is focused and applied therapy such as DBT, CBT or similar.  Of course many with apparent BPD resist serious therapy, use it to pose as improving, or claim they were quickly fixed.  And you can't do it for them since BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships and hence your efforts won't succeed because of your closeness or even be sabotaged.

I see a split often throughout the week.   She will be angry with me for chiming in on something she says and will hate me.   Then a few hours later after a break, she comes back talking to me as if nothing happened.   Again, sharing all her information, sharing everything on her mind.  I am a parent to her...

She signed the respondent paperwork it turns out.  On it states we are joint and physical custody.   Next step will be detailing out the custody plans.   A slight relief for me this week, but the custody plan and judgement is key coming up.   I just want my boy to be safe.     

It should now be hard for her to fight for more than 50/50 so I think she won't at this point.  It sounds like her inital agreement is coming together, but we will see.  Now I just need to make sure my boy remains within same school and close to his drs, speech therapist etc.

I want her to be within proximity to ease my boy when we do move apart, but we will see.

Her guy is back.  He ditched her for a week during Valentines Day and all of a sudden called her and talked her back into his web.  He is stringing her along and is likely wanting sex now and sadly she's falling for it.   I can't talk to her about that even though I can see right through everything.    Any negative talk about that situation will result in a split.    I guess I should be glad he's back at least until the judgement is signed.

After doing some reading online, I read in a couple places where psychiatrists rather diagnose Bipolar even if they suspect bpd because apparently insurance drops diagnose bpd patients and its difficult for bpders to get help.

The split and the situational emotions she's going through is what makes me believe it's more bpd than bipolar.   I read on some reddit threads about bpders taking Lamictal and it has done wonders for them apparently.

Thanks guys for your continual replies.

I walked into her room and she has a self help notebook.  On it, she wrote some paragraphs about the need to love herself.

I didn't want to go through her stuff but I quickly glanced. 

She has said this many times when we talked "I have to love myself".

I am reading online about bpders and how they hate themselves.  I kind of don't understand what this means.

What do you guys think about why she is writing in her journal or self help book about the need to love herself?   

Is there some kind of guilt going on with her?   Are these signs of suicidal thoughts?

She has said this many times when we talked "I have to love myself".

This is something that she may have learned in therapy or the psych and has stuck in her mind - this is a good thing for her.  It is likely 'positive self-talk' so she can learn to self-sooth and start to love herself.


I am reading online about bpders and how they hate themselves.  I kind of don't understand what this means.

This may be true, it is more of a shame element.  However, if there is self-love, there could be a narcissistic component to it as well.


Is there some kind of guilt going on with her?   

Possibly, part of the 'shame' component if she is self-aware of the crap she is doing.


Are these signs of suicidal thoughts?

Unlikely.  She is likely trying to do the primary suggestion for self-care.  Self-love is the opposite of suicide.  On all 6 of my wife suicide attempts, my wife indicated to me on the majority of those occasions that she told me that she 'did NOT love' herself.  I know her T's worked on helping her learn 'self love' after the most recent suicide attempt, so, do be on the lookout for anything out of the norm.  The mere fact that you are asking this question tells me that your gut is telling you something is amiss.  Do follow your 'gut' feeling on this.

I thought this did an excellent job explaining it: https://www.mcleanhospital.org/sites/default/files/2021-03/MH-Webinar-Self-loathing-WebinarFINAL.pdf

A pwBPD has an "inflated false self." A recovered pwBPD on Quora explained it like, "i felt like my emotions and feelings don't matter; therefore, I don't matter and am unlovable." <-- explains easy invalidation.

Now 41 and 9 years gone, my ex posts things on FB, Instagram and recently on LinkedIn that to me are cringeworthy... like stuart smalley auto validations presented as coaching. I'll give her credit for self-work. I'm from a different generation, too. You don't telegraph that stuff or seek public validation. But if it helps her cope, more power to her.

She left several journals when she left and she wrote things then that sounded similar.

I was bullied, often badly, as a kid,  and raised my a mother with BPD. I've been depressed and even felt unlovable. Yet i can't comprehend feeling empty, nor no one liking me that I have to mirror them due to no sense of self (not to say that i haven't engaged in unhealthy coping mechanisms). The whole "self work" thing taken to an extreme i can't understand. She also devours self-improvement books and social media.

I can't help but think that this is how extremely dysfunctional parents raise a child and it's sad.

Pretty well summed up. I would only add that typical cases of mania usually have an element of elevated/irritable mood accompanied with hyperactivity. There is also a cognitive element wherein patient's speech becomes more rapid, unable to be interrupted indicating racing thoughts.

Her gaslighting is soo annoying.   I cannot stand it.   I do whatever it takes not to bite or get upset by it.   But it is soo annoying. 

I feel like she knows that her gas lighting gets to my head.   Yesterday she started calling me names, then says I threw a tantrum from it when I just went out to walk the dog.

It sometimes makes me want to use the same tactics on her just to piss her off but I don't.  How do you guys deal with this chronic gaslighting?   

For my uBPDw's gaslighting I used a two-pronged approach - the first is to use 'radical acceptance', and the 2nd is to triangulate our couple's therapist to assist in setting up firm boundaries for 'gaslighting' being unacceptable behavior.

I used to be reactive in my abuse to her [e.g. 'use the same tactics on her'] and that only escalates the situation unless you become more crazy than her.

I'll first talk about 'radical acceptance' which can be found here on 'BPD family' under topic 1.06:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329744.0

One of the components of my version of radical acceptance is to pre-forgive, in essence, I know the reality of my situation is that my wife will eventually transgress against me in the form of gas lighting when she is splitting me black. Since I know this to be a fact [based on historical patterns], I know this is going to happen again, as long as I know that she is not deliberately doing this, and I see that she is being triggered by external forces; therefore, I have already forgiven her for what she does not know that she is about to do. That's what makes it radical.

Part of radical acceptance is "Once individuals can accept reality [with forgiveness] while simultaneously not approving of it is when change can be made" and I have added forgiving her in the accepted part of reality, even though I do not approve of her actions and will state as much when it is happening to me.

In essence I have mentally compartmentalized my wife's bad behavior as being attributable to her mental state of mind, and she is 'not guilty by reason of insanity' literally, and that is how I treat it when she splits gaslights me [splitting me black].

Now I am going to talk about setting up boundaries with love - specifically a boundary to limit the amount of emotional/verbal abuse that I am receiving.

The first boundary I set up was against physical violence - if she hits me or kicks me, the authorities will be called which is endorsed by the T - kind of severe, but it is effective.  Only one incident occurred since this boundary was setup.  My wife immediately recognized it and apologized for it, so it was only brought up in couples therapy - as 'self-sabotaging' type behavior and was not escalated to 911.

The second is to establish that emotional/verbal abuse will not be tolerated.  I have shared the issues that my wife was aware of with her T, her T did an excellent job in having my wife modify that behavior.  Now that all of my wife's self-aware issues have been addressed, now the trick is to get her to address the issues that she is not self-aware of.

Right now, I am at a point where all of the 'low hanging' therapy fruit has been picked, now I am going after the higher fruit that my wife is not aware of, and the therapy is getting rougher and more difficult - it may not last.  Currently, this is a stalled work-in-progress.  Because of jury duty, and the T's planned vacation, this has been frustratingly 'on-hold' for the past two weeks where the last session ended with a 'blow up'.

I am being patient, and do want the progress to resume; however, a large part of navigating this is to employ a neutral 3rd party to resolve this issue in the form of our couples therapist.

Every case will be different; however, I have shared what has been working in my specific scenario.  Hopefully this is helpful to you.

Take Care.

Hi engiebpd;


It is really annoying. It's so tempting to want to "set the record straight", yet it's hard knowing that even a full explanation of the facts won't stick with her and won't make things better. The "not in touch with reality" part of BPD is extremely difficult to deal with -- you could literally show her a video of what happened and that wouldn't matter, because what's most important to her is her desperation to get her extremely deep and intense emotional needs met.

...

What's your timeline right now on divorce/custody? I think I'm remembering that paperwork is in process -- do you have some specific deadlines coming up?

Might be helpful to get some dates on your calendar, so you know that this won't last forever, and you can just buckle down for the next X days for your kid's sake, then be done.

First, thank you salty.  I took your advice well and addressed her verbal abuse in therapy and to my surprised she admitted it and apologized.  It's been 4 days since that therapy and she hasn't verbally abused me.   Her gaslighting does seem strange though.  I am reading and understanding that it's not intentionally to hurt me in anyway so I am doing what ever it takes to take a step back and just view it as this (and a friend told me this)  "imagine you're in an insane asylum watching this person locked up and when they see you, they do nothing but constantly berate you and say the meanest things.  You should know that they are "insane" so you shouldn't have any anger towards it.  

This extreme example is what I try to keep in mind when she does this.   But it is awfully hard because she looks like a normal person and it comes every now and then.    


Okay so here's the news on my paperwork.   We have BOTH signed with the mediator regarding the divorce filing at 50/50.  My mediator was absolutely shocked that she signed and sent it in the night it was given to her.   (It was when she was in limerance)

The next step is the financial portion of the mediation process and she has been lagging on this part.   I can tell it's mainly because it looks like a school project and she is putting it off.   But we need this done to then move to the judgement signing, which should seal the deal on everything.  

Here's the problem though,  her bf broke it off and went no contact just as you all warned me about.  When she was in liminerence, she didn't care about anything.   Now all of a sudden she's back helping out with the baby and assisting with cleaning our place.   I'm a little disappointed this happened before the judgement signing but I guess I have to roll with the punches.

My mediator has told me to nudge her and she (mediator) will do it as well as the financial portion is a requirement.  

Tonight I told her that we need to complete this part so that we can be free and "you can be happy without me".   She now is processing that she won't be with this new guy and is now asking me to help support her or give her child support.  PLEASE READ (https://bpdfamily.com/safe-site.htm) me.    But at least I know it'll be tough for her to get this as she already signed the divorce filing @ 50/50.    

But it appears she's concerned about her financial situation when we are apart.   I told her I will help her out as much as I can but we need to get this done so we can move on.

She's says "okay" but can I get it in writing that you'll help me.  I said no.   But I will help you in any way I can because you are the mother of my child and I don't want to see you get buried.   I told her that I willl take care of our boy with his sports and everything that he ventures into and I will give her cash if I can.   She kinda doesn't believe me but genuinely I will in the long run.

But the fact that she's now asking for child support concerns me a bit guys.  What you guys wrote earlier in this thread has been so effin dead on.  I still wish she was still in lumerance with this guy.   Now she's actually processing her bad upcoming situation.

I'm going to call the mediator up tomorrow and tell her my concerns now but what do you guys think?  

If she tries to go for more custody to get more child support it'll cost her lawyers fees.  Which doesnt seem to be in her cards.   I am doing what ever it takes to convince her that I have her back after we separate but I don't want to promise her any specific # or figures.  

What do you guys think of my situation now that Mr. Wonderful has left her?  Now all a sudden she wants some custody $...ughhhh

First, thank you salty.  I took your advice well and addressed her verbal abuse in therapy and to my surprised she admitted it and apologized.  It's been 4 days since that therapy and she hasn't verbally abused me.

You are welcome.  One more word of advice on the reduction of verbal/emotional abuse.  Initially my wife was in compliance once she was stung with the slap of the boundary that our T put in place, and then like a small child, she tested the new boundary, please be prepared for it to return, do not let your guard down with a false sense of security that she actually has stopped this behavior for good.  It will return, it is a matter of when.  Be prepared to re-address this in therapy.  Do not give an inch on this new boundary or it will become meaningless.


Her gaslighting does seem strange though.  I am reading and understanding that it's not intentionally to hurt me in anyway so I am doing what ever it takes to take a step back and just view it as this (and a friend told me this)  "imagine you're in an insane asylum watching this person locked up and when they see you, they do nothing but constantly berate you and say the meanest things.  You should know that they are "insane" so you shouldn't have any anger towards it.  

A pwBPD gaslighting is a 'coping mechanism' for them.  They are telling themselves, and anyone who will listen, this is their distorted [to the point of being false] narrative, as they cannot accept the fact it is they themselves that are doing this terrible behavior.  Video/audio recordings, even if you are the only one reviewing them and it doesn't escalate, will reveal that you are not the crazy one.


This extreme example is what I try to keep in mind when she does this.   But it is awfully hard because she looks like a normal person and it comes every now and then.    
It gets easier to do with time.  I just think to myself, with a neutral face on, "here we go again, she's losing it, she is painting me 'black' and everything coming out of her mouth this point forward is a distortion of her truth".  Basically, I put up a mental shield, and it no longer hurts like it used to.


Congrats on the 50/50 custody arrangement. 

Regarding financial mediation:  I haven't been there, I am watching what you, and others have learned; however, I will share my thoughts...

The financial portion, you may have to do the legwork.  If you do the taxes, it is tax season (here in the US), and if you guys file jointly, offer to do the taxes for her.  Get access to all of her accounts, document everything (she has in those accounts if you can), figure out her income vs yours, if it is comparable, then likely no alimony/child support.

However, if there is a difference between your incomes, I am assuming you are making significantly more than she is.  Instead of paying her directly, consider putting this in writing, that you will pay for your child's educational expenses, your child's clothing, setting up a 529 college plan, etc. that way you take care of your child, and keep the $$$'s out of her impulsive hands and you know the money is spent on your child and not her vices to the detriment of your child and with the college plan you get the tax benefits.

If she refuses, perhaps considering sweetening the deal with paying for security deposit and 1+ months worth of rent, a one time payment, so she will not be a burden do you when you re-enter the dating scene some time after the divorce.  Or consider putting in writing that you will give her cash up to a time period mutually agreed upon.  Whatever your agreement is, make sure that it is limited and won't balloon with COLA and other unforeseen expenses.  I did something similar for my uBPD/NPDexgf and I had no bio kids with her.


She kinda doesn't believe me but genuinely I will in the long run.

I know this is the way you feel now; however, if and when you re-enter the dating scene paying money to your ex may be perceived in a negative light by the new gf unless it is court ordered.  However, if you ensure that all of the monies are directed to your son this will be seen more positively.  The new gf, who us now my uBPDw, shut down such support to the uBPD/NPDexgf and was very upset when I paid the uBPD/NPDexgf's bail when her uBPD behavior landed her there, so her bio kids wouldn't suffer.

I know you are a caretaker, otherwise you wouldn't make those financial offers.  However, you need to look out for your best interest, and that means limiting your losses in this situation, and minimizing your financial obligations moving forward.

For the rest of the comments, I will defer to FD as he has a wealth of information.

Take care with self-care.

I think I'm seeing some leverage here.

If you need to wrap up the financial side of mediation, and she's dragging her feet, and you've already decided that you'd be OK with covering sports fees, and she wants that in writing --

(check with your L first, and if your L says OK, then)

offer to her you will include in writing something like "engiebpd will cover 100% of Little Engiebpd's sports and/or extracurricular fees, provided the sports/extracurriculars are agreed upon by both parents in writing or email, until Little Engiebpd reaches age 18 or graduates from high school, whichever comes later. engiebpd will pay the fees directly to the school or organization." (make sure to run whatever wording you use past your L, so you don't get stuck with bad verbiage/loopholes)

as long as she signs by Day/Date. If she doesn't sign by Day/Date then that will not be included in the deal in writing.

Might be a win-win.

Hi All,

Based on the things I've been telling you about my ex unpbd ( but diagnosed bipolar),   it seems you guys suspect that I am her favorite person since she is emotionally opened to me about her personal life and also she splits on me.

I am trying to figure out still if this is true or if she is trying to be nice to me for a reason.   Reasons maybe that I am able to care for our son while she's out or if maybe it could be due to just her playing a role until the divorce finalizes.


If she is ill, I can see favorites person being possible.   But all of a sudden, she has been more nicer to me ever since her affair lover and the guy she's dating has been less committed.   

It's hard for me to distinguish.   

I saw a YouTube video where a girl said its possible to have a favorite person and also a lover as well.   It sounds like I may be in this situation and then I am switch to the main person since her dating life is not all she thought it would he so far...

Am I her "favorite" person?   Sometimes I don't think I am

Since you share children, it may be that you'll always be on her back burner simmering just in case (a stove analogy) for all the times her other life hits a speed bump.

So her perception of you may vary from evil incarnate to a renewed love.  One explanation is that BPD behaviors may moderate with distance apart.  That's why you being closer to her in a marriage faced the full brunt of them while those on the periphery of her life merely noticed something 'off' about her with occasional flare ups.

Goodness Foreverdad, you seem to nail it on the spot.  It sure does seem that way. She has mentioned that she thinks we will be closer and better when we are apart - less fighting, less toxic enviroment, good friends "coparenting partners"

It's as if she is aware of something.   She has been drastically nicer right now ever since our last counseling session where she apologized for being abusive.  But I am unsure of anything because she has been putting off on the financial documents of the mediation.  Also, her affair partner blocked her # but calls her middle of the night occasionally but she doesn't pick up.  She says she calls him the next morning but her # is still blocked.  Then she calls him from a restricted # and he doesn't pick up.   -still amazes me that she tells me all these things.

She tries to come up with a positive reason why that's happening and it annoys me.  She says "I think he still loves me and misses me which is why he calls me middle of the night"

Imo he's just tugging on the string and is not picking up normal hours because he is probably still in a relationship with his babymomma but who knows.  Its all speculatio at this point and I don't even have the time to think about this stuff and told her I don't want to hear about this guy again. .  But she sometimes wants my opinion on the matter...so weird and off indeed.

 So the 2nd guy she was dating since affair partner has been out of the picture (she says she's not physically attractedto him but he makes good $), she pushed him out a little recently because he's also dating someone else and she didnt like that and got into an argument with him about it.    He says he has been hanging out with the other girl for 9 months and can't just throw her out for my ex wife since he only been seeing my ex for 3 weeks or so.   So she's in a limbo with no victims in hand - and I can't tell if this is why she has been nicer to me.

She is likely talking to family and they are worried about the mediation process perhaps - they don't know about her affair and pregnancy.   I think they only believe she dislikes me for not being a "loving & affectionate enough husband" and whatever she is saying about me.  But they are going to support her through this. 

So I'm still not sure of the future at this point and I still have a little bit of anxiety.  I need the financial documents submitted to the mediator and then proceed to the judgement with both of us signed for anything to clear.   

Though the mediator did tell me that the divorce has been filed and the 6 month clock has been started.  That's one relief. 

I have to stick around with her until October and I am still a little nervous about our 3 year old who will be about 3.5 when we do separate in different locations.

Why do you have to stick around if you have already come to an agreement on custody? You can also get temporary orders if need be.

Perhaps you can start a new topic (thread) focusing on status of parenting your child, about 3 years old now.

She's willing to do 50/50 parenting, on paper at least.  (Around here that's a bit surprising since many Borderline mothers are very possessive of their children, some fanatically so.)

Historically, who has done the most parenting thus far?  I ask because there is a relatively small percentage of mothers that are more concerned about their adult relationships than with parenting their children.  You don't speak much of the actual parenting so I'm curious.  If she is more preoccupied with her adult life then after the divorce she may gift away even more of her parenting.  Considering that her life is disordered and surely would impact the child to some extent, that's not a bad thing for you to shoulder more of parenting responsibilities.

We have the divorce filings signed and on it had a custody order sheet with 50/50 that she signed.

But my mediator and some family attorney advisors said that the judgement orders is what matters most and said I shouldn't make a move before that gets signed.    We both need to turn in financial  paperwork and then it gets process and then we move towards signing the judgement.  At this point, I've turned mine in and she has been delaying.   It looks like it's because she's talking to family or someone about the situation.  She might be worried because she makes a lot of cash tips that she may be storing in another bank.

From my understanding so far, the divorce filings is strong for me but might not be the nail in the coffin yet?

I've been documenting and taking pictures with my care for the baby m-w and Saturday and shared Sundays.   we also have daycare m-f.  There are many times where she would make excuses on her days and asks me to care for him.   I also documented nights she has gone out late, stayed out late to party etc.  

I take pictures of my baby everywhere I take him pretty much.

She also may not want to reveal the way she spends her money.  Which has been on botox, lip injection and $300 on her nails every week.  

Also Foreverdad,  according to my family and close friends who are much wiser than me, they said she's behaving as if she may leave the baby as well.   The signs according to them are when she was in lala land with affair partner.  She completely neglected the baby for like 2-3 week period and did 0 chores.   They believe that when she actually lives by herself or if she has a new bf, the baby may become too much for her to handle and she may just throw him off more to me.

I have read some articles of borderline mothers leaving their children but I guess it's too early to tell right now.

She has not taken the baby anywhere fun especially without me because I can tell it will be too much for her to handle. 

Lately she has been good to the baby at home but has not taken him to anywhere including the mall ever since our separation.  She's been telling me to go with her and the baby to an amusement park but I've said no and that she can just take the baby.  She hasn't yet.

Keep doing what you're doing. My ex acted very much like your stbxw, childish, neglecting the kids (phoning it in as a mother), staying out late... unless she contests it, the court is likely to sign off, happy not to have you two show up in front of a judge.

I only called her out once when she returned from a tryst at 5AM. Really? While I'm home with our 1 and 3 year old? She looked like a scolded child.

It may be frustrating and painful to see her act like a "teen mom" as I used to think. Yet it isn't your job to teach her Mothering. Get that legal stipulation signed by her and the court and go from there. If she's holding up on financial disclosures, see if you can do that later (I don't know) after securing custody.

FWIW, my ex did better patenting after she moved out, and much better after she divorced her Beau though that took a few more years.

Please, let us encourage you and lend you strength.  Right now life is distressing and surely topsy turvy.  Here's a quote from my quotable quotes post over in "Stump the Experts (off topic)" board.


Some day you will come across a mentally healthy woman who will be "someone you cannot live without".  Until that time focus on getting through this rough patch, being a reasonably good parent and taking care of yourself!

OK so her affair partner is back and apparently wants her to be exclusive.   Since she is in limerance with this guy, she dropped the other guy she was seeing.

She had a bunch of good feelings over the weekend.    I am unsure if it's due to this guy being back but she has been back to being contemptuous with me.   This occurred at the beginning of our separation when this guy loved bomb her and kept promising some kind of future with her so it led to her breaking up with me.

She's back to heavy emasculation comments,  immitates and exaggerates my voice and saying I sound like a girl.  Is there coincidence that this pattern is back because the affair partner is back?   It's some kind of superior position.

On new years when she broke it off, I saw these behaviors. Then when the affair guy started to distant from her, she became nicer which led me to believe our amicable agreeement divorce and coparenting relationship was genuine.  

Now I am having suspicions and back to being unsure of what's to come.   She has been avoiding doing the financial step in the mediation divorce process.   My family attorney said that I may just need to let it play out and go from there.

I also want to add that i have been more friendly and for a few weeks prior to her being contemptuous.  Im trying to showher i want us to have a good coparenting relationship as we finish out our lease.  After some time of this, she would ask me to take hee to work out and eventually wants to go somewhere like an amusement park with the baby.   I avoid the amusementpark as i try to avoid anythingg that puts me in a lock with her for a prolongue period of time.  Past couple days, I've been trying to be nice but stay short with her.   She came home from work telling me she told the affair bf that she gets uneasy again that he doesn't spend much time with her.   So she tells me "he's so sweet because he says he's going to work less and have other employees take over some of his roles so he can spend more time with her".   

I wonder if she is getting the sense that I am pulling away even more because of her increase in verbal abuse.   It looks like she needs someone there emotionally and I was kind of the crutch for her and now that crutch is breaking a way, is she now trying to manpulate her affair partner to spend more time with her?

How do you feel about her sharing all of these details about her Beau with you in such detail?

The verbal, emotional abuse and contempt on top of everything is enough to get to detach.   It is annoying in some ways to hear these things but I feel like I'm getting better overall as each week passes.

It's possible that I may be just convincing myself of this because I have been having dreams of her old self a lot lately.   So maybe unconsciously, I may not be fully detached?

In many ways, I am also hearing these things for Intel purposes.    We still have two more steps in our mediation process.  I think when all complete, I'll ask her not to talk to me about her guy problems anymore.

What's insane is that the guys phone this week is "turned off".   From my perspective, he's just love bombing her to pull her back to possibly have sex with to then go dark the following week.  Its happened multiple times like this and she is not catching on.  It's crazy how she rationalizes his behavior into positivity.

This is clear classic idealization when a bpd sees only all good and none of the red flags.  She says "wow this guy is just so busy".   Then today, she says "this guy loves me so much, he's playing games to make sure i love him"   <----- can you believe this thought process.   Unbelievable

But overall Turkish, I am mainly thinking for my boy and I have to make sure I do this right.    And if it takes some pain in the process, I'll be willing to walk through that fire.    I imagine myself in a kind of prison, where I must behave for a certain time period (october or after the judgement is signed).

Yeah, that was my thinking at the time. She once told me that he had noticed her anger over something (likely inconsequential to him) and he asked her about it. I thought  :) he's in for quite a ride!

A couple of years later, I actually felt sorry for him.

Turkish, you're talking about your existence affair partner or current relationship?

It's so crazy how I am seeing  extreme bpd thought behaviors from her against her new guy.  She told me she wanted to slash his tires.  My eyes lit up.   Because I am good person as she says sometimes (it's like she 2 persons) somehow deep down inside I think she wouldn't do that to me.

She also said she wanted to stalk him etc. 

Speaking of which, I understand bpd but is it possible they can have 2 person personality.   I sometimes think that when I remind her what awful thing she said to me she would say "when I say those things, just don't take it so personally" - which i started doing awhile ago.

I'm going to look into multiple personalities.  I do understand the mr jekyll Hyde analogy I keep running into when researching bpd.

BTW I booked a session with a therapist that is expert in these cases.   This will be for my 1on1.  Hopefully she can help me understand things.

BPD isn't MPD, though pwBPD tend to have dis-intregrated personalities. My ex married the guy she left me for, eventually divorcing him when he didn't live up to her fantisization of him. She was 31 and he was a 21yo college football jock with narc tendencies. Of course he wasn't going to meet her expectations as a provider or guru/leader! Poor kid...

In retrospect, our relationship was like an even numbered star trek movie: better than the odd numbered ones. Both relationships either sides of ours involved courts, restraining orders, cops, and domestic violence. Though she did exhibit some DV tendencies.

She's now 41. May the odds ever be in favor for the next poor  :cursing:

So let's share a Scooby-Snack given our maturity to avoid the worst. It sux now, but you'll get through this and hopefully have an effective coparenting r/s in the future.

Thanks Turkish, I am in the midst of it and trying to survive this.

Had my session today with Dr T from YouTube.  She says being in this situation until October can implode at some point.   I am unsure.  I'm hazy because sometimes the ex wife is being super nice but then when something triggers her, she is raging and goes off saying randomly terrible things at me and rushes out the door

It's really hard as I an trying to be amicable and hoping for everything to play out on that road but the rage and abusive words makes me think twice.   It's so back and forth.  I'm at confusion here.

For example this morning she raged at a disagreement when I said "what?" At something she said I would pay for when I clearly never did.    It's an amusement park where I've already paid the deposit when we were together but I made it clear I'm not paying for it monthly.  She said "you said you'd pay for it".  I'm like "what? No I didnt".  Then she went raging and complaining and then mouth off "I f***ing can't wait until I move out of here, your voice is so annoying when you said "what?".   Then she mocks my voice (level of contempt)  Then takes off to work..  I was silent the entire time.

Just now she comes home from work, 9 hours lateer.  Shes all super nice to me.  Saying some nice things and comes into my room leaving me no choice but to hear about her day about what guys are doing for her to have her in their presence.  They apparently wanted her to go to dinner but she decided to go home instead.   Anyway, I listened and was nice.  Then she says "it's always good to hear your thoughts, you're really level headed".  I'm like "thanks I appreciate that ... anyway I'm going to bed".

Then she says "you know what, why don't we get another apartment and still stay together passed October, it'll be so much cheaper for the both of us.  We will be roommates and we can agree to both bring girls and guys over.  I said "no that'll be too much on me if you bring a guy over while I'm in the other room and the baby in another room"  Just pay the higher rent for a single bedroom and you get your freedom, you can have guys over when I have the baby on my days"

Can you friggen believe what she just asked me?  It's obvious she has a great life with me being here (having her cake and eating it too) and handling all the extra baby duties when she throws him on me.  I cannot believe the lack of empathy of even asking me that kind of question.  BTW she asked me to watch the baby when she's at Coachella one weekend in a few weeks (damn such nice life she's having in this circumstance)

 

I have to admit, it's pretty tough dealing with this type of person and be forced to live with her.    Every other day, she will try to hurl some form of insult at me.   Whether it's my intelligence or my manhood.   I'm generally a pretty intelligent person as well as I have succeeded in many things that are quite difficult.  I'm not some dummy loser.   

I've applied Grey Rock very well and it feels like she keeps trying to push harder to try to get a reaction out of me.   The good news is that Grey rock does work as it does limit conflict but it does something to her because she tried to say things to keep pushing me to get heated up.   I won't even get heated up and then she will continuously say I am being angry and that "I am acting crazy".   

I literally have some interactions recorded and I play it back and I hear myself in the same normal tone and she would say "omg look at you being all angry", "you take name callings soo personally".   It is very weird.  While I did manage to maintain this situation for a couple months, it feels like she just wants to try to push me further and further.   

The other day I got it out of her as to why she keeps saying my voice is like a girl, and that I am soo "feminine as a man".   I asked her why do you say these things when I am doing my best to avoid conflict.   She says "because it gets to you, i am trying to poke the bear".   

Unbelievable.   I bit and told her that a real man, takes care of his baby...your baby and makes sure he is responsible".  She says you take it so personally, it's funny.   I'm like "I'm not taking it personally, your words are irrelevant"  she's all "good, I'm making you stronger, into a real man".    Lol.   Omg.  This illness is so real.

She was literally never like this before when I was with her for 8 years.  I have no idea what happened to this woman that I knew.   I can't believe someone can go through so much changes in their 30s.

She's like trying to cut  my balls off.   I Grey rock to all her insults and she just goes as far as she can.

I had 2 therapy sessions with a specialist in this area that ive been watching on youtube and she was very blunt and not nice as to the things she was saying about my ex.  I told her about my October date living with this woman until lease ends and her words were something like "that is a gosh long damn ages, this will implode"   

At the time she told me this, I was fairly optimistic that it can be done, but the last 3-5 days has shown me how correct this therapist can be.  I've essentially been handling this by avoiding being around her for longer than 20 mins, rejecting all her attempts to pull me to hang out with her and our son. 

But the moments where I cave and was "forced to" be with her longer are when I am trying to get the baby ready for school and she's in the living room with me.  I obviously can't just walk away as I have to try to get the baby to school.

Last weekend she convinced me to wagon walk our baby to get a haircut near our apartment.  I was like okay.  Within that short 1.5 hour time frame, she would be nice but eventually tries to get to my nerves about something.

I keep reminding her that it is these conflicts that makes me not want to spend any time with her.  I told our marriage counselor that we have been getting along mainly because I avoid her at all costs.  But it's impossible when there are times I am forced to be in a long car ride with her.   

Then there are moments where the baby will be in my room and she would jump on my bed to cuddle the baby and I'm there.   She would eventually say things that would lead me to tell her to get out of my bedroom.

I feel like of all the victims in this similar situation, I am handling it fairly well due to my continuous reading and falling asleep to podcasts about bpd, narcissist etc.    But even then, I still get pushed to a certain place.   

I feel like the more I am able to maintain composure the more she tries harder and harder.  Then later apolgoize and be nice for some time only to get me off guard and the bam, hits me with some form of emasculating comment when I I am drained

I am now really dreading the lengthy October date but feel like I must do it for the baby. 

Yes, the callous boundary pushing is relentless.  One common attack vector is your manhood and disparagement as effeminate.  I lived with that too as my marriage was aimed for the rocks.  You can't risk a single outburst in frustration or it will be held over your head for forever.

I too suspect there will be some sort of implosion incident before autumn.  As that time nears she will ramp it up even more.  Don't let it catch you off guard and unprepared.

I am confused.  It's like she knows how to get me to really care about her and be her emotional support.  Due to our recent argument where she was calling me names and saying I have a voice like a girl (then starts imitating me in exaggeration with a pathetic girl voice), and then when I respond slightly saying that your words don't affect me and these are all just your opinion.

She'll say something back like "you get sooo butt hurt when someone calling you names...its so funny".  Walks off smiling..

I pretty much had enough and told her that my family hates the things you say to me etc. Then she says I don't get affected by these at all and walks around all proud saying she got to me.

Now here's the weird part. She'll text me saying I can't believe how "angry you get and you yell at me".  She calls me up some time later and says "should we do an emergency therapy session, do you need it".  I said, no we have a session next week and I am okay.  Let's just stay away from eachother for awhile and just coil down.    She texts saying " okay I need YOU to be calm and balanced, you are the man in this house and when you are calm and balanced, it makes me calm"

Then I say fine, I'm over it let's just stay away from eachother.   She says okay.  

So I go 2-3 days avoiding her (I'm actually working most of the time and don't even pick up her phone call)   Today, she texts me and ask me if I want to go have lunch with her, I say no.  She says she will pay.  I say I'm working

Then afternoon, she picks up the baby from school as I'm at at work, she calls me and says "Pls just listen to me...i should move out.    This relationship is too toxic for me and it's affecting me.  I am on my medications and I have a huge headache, I can't be having you call me names ALL THE TIME, it really hurts me, im struggling with the baby, struggling at work, this is too much for me, I can't believe your family hates me...I am so hurt"   Then I said "I don't call you names".  And she says "you're suppose to listen to what I have to say and be there for me!  Not talk about you" Then hangs up...

10 mins later, she calls " look I am depressed by our last conflict, I want you to come home and give me a hug, please I really need it.  I need everything to be okay, you hurt me so much the other night"   I'm like "we should be staying away from eachother not get closer especially if i am supposedly hurting your feelings when we talk"

She says "please just come home and give me a hug, I have nobody to talk to, nobody!  My mental health is deteriorating and I am suppose to leave for a trip in an hour.    I am your baby's momma and YOU need to be there for me."

I told her I was going to stay out and I think it's just best I am away from home until you leave.  She ends up demanding me to get home so I can help the baby and that she really needs a hug.

I'm like okay fine blah blah.  I go home give her a hug and she behaves extremely nice again and apologizes for the emasculating comments and that she will try her best not to do it again.   She cooks dinner and we help around the baby and she leaves for her trip that she genuinely doesn't want to go but was excited up until now.  But realized she was going to miss the baby.  This is the popular music festival she's going to.

Now here's my problem here... WTF is going on?  Am I talking to two persons?    The conflict the other night she was so bold and was tearing me apart and today she is like super nice soft and exactly how I would want her to be as a coparent in front of our baby.  

When she made the first call saying that she wanted to move out and how I have been hurting her- I literally started calling some friends and family because I was paranoid that she was going to set up something badly.  I was considering bringing a friend or family member withme.   She calls back and she somehow convinces me that she "really" just needs me to give her a hug and it'll make her feel better.

This is stupidly confusing as heck guys.  When I was dealing with conflict version of her she was so brutal and mean and unaffected by the conflict. Then days later she's mentally distraught from it?

What exactly am I dealing with here?  This is just so bogus.    The nice version of her , i feel like I can have a successful coparenting with her, I feel like our divorce will be truly amicable and think that we will be great friends throughout this process.

But when I see her bold and brutal version, I immediately have my guard up, I don't want to see her for days and I am worried about false domestic abuse calls, and I pretty much have feelings of hatred towards her, and I worry this is not going to work out.  I get anxiety of what's to come.

Then in matters of 2 hours of interacting with her nice version, I feel okay again.

OK I know I typed a lot but I guess I'm just trying to understand this because it is soo confusing.   I would feel sorry for her, then I would despise her, then sorry for her, then despise her.

This back and forth has been messing me up guys.  

She's projecting her behaviors onto you, not to mention being extremely emotionally immature.

Agree with Turkish. It sounds like she is very confused and experiencing emotional volatility. And she’s projecting that onto you.

As my T would say, “the pieces don’t fit together.”

My ex had a father issue.  I didn't realize how much until I looked back at it all.  Her father wasn't in her life.  When she was a preschooler her SF came into her family's life.  This nighttime abuser really messed up her and her sister.  I came along riding my white horse and shiny armor.  We married but soon I realized she was damaged.  Over the years things gradually became more difficult.  More inexplicable rants and rages that left me flummoxed.  But most problems were her increasing conflicts with others.

After we were married a decade I got the cluelessly brilliant but disastrous idea she'd be happy to have a baby with whom she could discover the joys of life.  Ouch.  I had no idea of a truism often mentioned here:  Having a child does not fix a serious mental dysfunction.

Unfortunately, when I became a father that shifted how she viewed me, I was no longer the spouse she'd been married to for over a decade.  As I father I was then compared to her experience of being fathered... by an abuser.  There was no way to address how badly life then went downhill toward disaster.

That's my own marriage's background.  What happened next is what I'm seeing with you.

In the final years the discord increased.  In the final months her derogatory insinuations increased.  The pushing never let up, well, until the marriage imploded.

In those last months I noticed how she could start the day by promising intimacy that night, but during the day she would sabotage my feelings so badly that either she would reject me or I couldn't bear to have intimacy with her.  Over and over this happened.  Every few weeks we'd finally have intimacy but it was soured with all the disparagement in between.  Oh yes, that I wasn't a man, I was effeminate, she wore the pants, etc.  She knew how to hurt me.  It was sheer torture and I was the dog under the table begging for scraps.

I see your spouse is making insinuations, claiming you behaved badly when you didn't.  I saw that too in my marriage.  The disparagement.  The sneers, then lovey then sneers again.  The relentless back and forth, a sickening roller coaster carsick.  Yet I stayed on and never got off whenever the car came into the station.  Frankly, this will end badly.  You're in the middle of it all so of course you can't let yourself give up or take and exit when you're least in danger.

My now-ex over time emboldened herself, convinced herself that I was the worst person ever.  The reality was that I was the closest person ever but that's BPD - the worst behaviors are most evident - and most dumped on - to the closest person.  You.  Me.  And so many others here.

Her claims about how bad you are seem powerless now, even crazy making.  But what if she saves all those messages about how very bad and heartless you are?  Then when the marriage really does break down and she starts filing allegation after allegation, then where will you stand?

I'm not saying she will, but it's a very real risk.  I've been there, done that.  I lost count of the allegations my ex made.  Sure, 10 to 15 years have passed and my kid is grown now, but for years it was torture.  Courts and agencies don't know either of you but they are tasked with presuming an allegation might be true.  And they might not scrutinize her the claimed victim, they will be focused on you the claimed perp.

I know I'm being blunt but I don't know how else to express myself.  I was where you are.  The appeasing, the micro-management, nothing works very long, sadly.  On the bright side, it is good you're looking after yourself and have support.  Protect yourself.  Don't let her egg you into a frustrated overreaction she can capitalize on.

Forever dad,

I think her family may have thought the same.   That if she got married and had a baby, she would change.  I think they knew something is completely off about her especially her grandma who raised her.   Problem is, grandma speaks a different language from me and doesn't know English so we can never communicate.  Whenever we had family get together, she was always worried about me and they always ask me "is everything okay".   My ex would get a little upset because she feels they are on my side over her.   But I guess they pegged me as a competent person that is a good person.    

For some reason I always thought something was a little off with her family when we were serious in the beginning couple years and preparing to get married.   But I thought that may be they didn't think she was a smart person and that they may be worried because they pegged me as a smart person.   I thought this was the case but "was in love" and had the naive assumption that if a wife allowed me to make the decisions in life, she would find success.

And it lead to her having more $ than she ever had.

Once I clamped down on those monthly expenses, it immediately changed her.    She is incapable of making small lifestyle adjustments just for a better future +  we now have a baby and things have to change like less going out. She didn't like those changes.  Still wanted to go eat at high end restaurants even when we have a toddler that tantrums in the restaurants.   So I remember telling her, let's not go out and eat anymore, it's too exhausting and she was a bit upset.


Anyhow, my point is that I was confident to "carry" I guess you can say rescue - which is bad of what I did unknowingly.  I figured I can get us there financially if she is just a good mom- which she can be when present but not when she gets selfish and neglectful.

She is literally unaware that SHE even gets tired from handling the baby and doesn't realize that affects us both and is the reason why we've toned down from our outgoing ventures from when we didn't have a baby.

She is not a smart person, and I knew and was fine with that.  But she was meticulous with baby stuff and things she's into at the moment.  But I learned she gets bored fast.   I got her a poodle which she adored so much, took a ton of pictures of the puppy and we took him on trips and she would love him so much.   But once he grew and became tough to handle (which isn't that tough, he just needed to be walked but was stronger so its a struggle for her), she now wants me to have him after we split lol.   I wonder if this is a sign of things to come when our toddler grows up.   She's already neglecting him.


But he is still so very cute so when she has him she does a lot with him.   But then throws him off to me on days she's supposed to care for him.   She'll book nail appts at times she's suppose to pick him up and then asks me if I can do it.  My family and elderly people believe she is eventually going to ditch our son one day because she has shown a lot of selfish tendencies.  

We have an annual pass to Disney and she took him once because I refuse to go with her.   He's much to handle for her alone so I think it's dreadful for her.  She keeps wantIng me to go with her.  I've been taking him every week because I know how to handle him and understand his moods since I am with him so much.

Ever since we split, she has barely taken him out for fun.  Her fun at the moment is cooking cupcakes with him at home.  

But thank you, I've put some thought into what you said about possible bad situations and allegations in the future.  I know I need to keep my guard up 110%, but honestly I get thrown off when she behaves well - but it is a HIGH possibility that she knows how to be to get me to let my guard down.  

Also Turkish,

Thank you for reminding me that she's projecting onto me.   She said some things that I felt like I've been wanting to say to her forever.   I felt like she could read my mind.  I did mention this to her in the past and told her that "as friends and coparent of our boy, I am your best friend, you know that genuine, and I want the best for both of us for our baby.   We don't ever want to be adversaries.  We need to do our best to be a team even though we are not lovers"

She said something similar to this after I gave her the hug.  She said I "came onto her so hard, and it hurt her feelings that she literally thought our friendship agreement was deterioting".   She wanted a hug to "believe everything is still okay".   Omg this is so childish imo.  I feel like I'm going to have to be her emotional support forever or else something bad may happen.  I can't imagine if in the future, I just don't pick up her call for 2 weeks or a month, or if and when I find a new partner.  I know she wants to be single but a part of me thinks that she is asssuming I'll be like this forever for her due to our shared baby in the middle.

She knows I'm genuine deep down  inside, that is also the reason why she previously 110% entrusted me with our assets.

She's planting the seed to h**ver.    I can see it thanks to you all that are guiding me.  I appreciate a ton.

Update:  she's been delaying on financial portion of the mediation still to this day.  Our mediator has been prompting her to do it.  

She has been peaceful since our last coparenting session (former marriage counselor turned coparent counseling now).  I raised the issue of her consistently making fun of my voice and saying I'm not a man.   Somehow she has stopped doing that for the last 2-3 weeks and our household has now been peaceful...so far.   Peaceful mainly because I picked up a an easy government job that my family recommended me to do in order to get out of the apt and be away from her.  I can see how therapeutic working can be even though it is a position I wouldn't normally take but I just need to be doing something else and meeting new people.  

It does feel like a different world.   Anyhow.   Since I've been briefly talking to her and handling most of the baby duties.  Avoiding going out with her and only taking the toddler out when I am with him.   Here's how she's h**vering me already before we even move out.

We may be getting a 1 bedroom apartment separately in the same complex.  We spoke to the leasing manager and they said we can leave our 3 bedroom early if we move into their units.   For some reason I find that this may work out since i can exit begore October.  

So now she's searching at 1 bedrooms here and is actually happy at moving out because she will get her "own" bigger space.  I'm obviously okay with this as our 3 year old toddlers school is nearby and it may be easier.

I did tell her we need to first and foremost finish our mediation paperwork process before we move out.  She says "okay".  But I don't know where it stands at the moment.  

While "dreaming" of living separately in the same complex and she can have guys over at her place.  She would say stuff like "I can do a lot of things when you're with the baby and I'm by myself, like cleaning etc.  But it'll be nice if I can come over to your place when I need to see another human being".   What do I say to this guys?

Mother's day*   she texted me saying we should always celebrate mothers day and fathers day for the baby.   She's all "I want earrings".  I said no, I can't afford that... and that I had no plans for mothers day but I guess  ill think about it.    

I did some research online and the general belief is that we should  for the kids.   I got a little emotional thinking about all the things she did and was a bit angry at then moment while being by myself and reading.  Felt like she doesnt deserve a mothers day celebration after all shes done But I ended up getting over it.  

I came home and she was like "fine let's just go to church as a family and have a nice lunch for mothers day".  I said that sounds fair.   But I am a bit nervous being out with her for that period.  We haven't been out as a family for awhile.

She's now using mothers day to get us together as a family.   But I'm going to do my best to dodge any abusive comments that comes from her when we are together.  

Now get this.   She just texted me and said for "mothers day I want a Cabo trip or hawaii...or maybe for my birthday".

Really?   We are divorced...   also a couple weeks ago she said she wanted our toddler to experience a trip to Japan and that I should save my credit card points for that when he is 5 years old.

She is so unpredictable.   She has been dragging her feet on the disclosures of financial paperwork.   It's been 2-3 months now.  She says it's just overwhelming and she puts it off.

She's back with the affair guy again.

She really seems to have 2 sides to her personality.  She told me that her guy says this since she's super emotional and then behaves nicely.  Weve been avoiding conflict ast couple weeks.   In my mind, I literally think she's actually being truthful to her agreement all along.

Tonight I asked her if she is going to do thr paperwork since she texted me this morning that she'll get to it.  All of a sudden she says"well this has to be fair, you're not going to ask me for money right?"  I said no of course not, this is a 50/50 joint custody agreement.   And then she says "well I want money, I don't know if me and this guy will work out.   So I want money".

This is going to be tough guys.   I am at the end of my rope living with her.   She didn't pay for the electric bill that is in her name and it's around 2700 right now.     She did this last year to her car bill and when we walked out, I almost called the cops thinking our car was stolen.

We've already signed the summons and petitions at 50/50, how can she switch midway and want some money?   

I currently have none but I hold our assets which I do intend to give her half. 

Any thoughts please, I am soo exhausting from all this.   Thanks guys, you've been a great help to an anon. 

My friend, Power bill at $2700? What in the Actual F :cursing:?

How is that even possible? Sorry to focus on something else and I assure I am paying attention...just haven't responded as you have gotten solid feedback from the community and other members of the team.

Again though...$2700? Seriously good luck and I hope you find a way out of this giant fustercluck ;-)

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

I think you have to figure out something she really wants and use leverage to move this forward.

People with BPD tend to drag things out, even things that work in their favor. Stonewalling should be listed in the DSM as the 10th trait.  :(

Does she know how much you hold in assets?

You know her best. What could motivate her?

Everything about the current situation is excellent for her. Why would she change anything?

Are you willing to move out and use your assets to pay for two places? It is a change you choose for you, even though there is a downside. But for her, it introduces a new hard edge. Now she has to choose between the reasonable thing and the one that makes things worse for her.

From her perspective, and from affair guy's perspective, you are great at stabilizing this three-legged stool. They think they know you and aren't expecting something different, like harming your own finances.

We often have to be willing to go through with things but in my experience my ex was more interested in not giving me what I want than getting what he wanted.

She can switch because until it is both signed by the judge and filed with the court, anything can be undone and renegotiated.  And the lawyer bills will grow.


What you have, to put it bluntly, is Leverage.  PwBPD leverage is typically delay and often could care less about not paying bills.  Your leverage is your ownership of assets.  It's not a lot of leverage since most courts officially lean toward splits down the middle but they also are inclined to allow Gifting the problem parent a lot of extras.

Isn't this the time to stop being the Nice Guy or Nice Gal?  Of course, don't be mean or nasty but stop trying to follow your natural inclination to be super-nice or super-fair.  Those are normally excellent qualities but in these difficult times those inclination can enable you to commit self-sabotage.

If you can't manage to control your inclinations, then let your lawyer have room to be the "tough guy".  "I'm sorry, my lawyer won't let me pay that bill."  Let the lawyer take the blame.  That's one of the reasons we hire lawyers.  They can deal with the core issues without being conflicted with our Nice Guy feelings.  That's their job.   Of course, don't give them freedom to bloat their bills.

OK.  I saw a video about the importance of leverage when it comes to negotiating with a narcissist or bpd.  Even if you offer something that is favorable to them but it seems to them like it's what you want, they'll decline or do anything so you won't have it your way.

Her raging is becoming more frequent.   The more passive and avoiding I have been, I think she thinks she has more power over me.  

Through a normal text conversation she was raging and being verbally abusive.  I have to find the right times to talk to her about the important things like the baby or bills or prompting her to sign the paperwork.   Literally the only time is through texting and even then she rages.   I have ceased to talk to her about anything that can trigger her.

 I told her "OK If you're going to get angry, I guess we can talk about it with the therapist".   She then says I can't handle life and that I always have to run to our therapist.  

She says she doesn't want to do those sessions anymore.  Which probably means she wants me by myself.

I sent these texts messages to the counselor and we have our last session tomorrow.  I honestly don't know what will happen from then and to the end of our lease.

She says she wants to move out and be away from me but her actions are showing that.  She's just living this comfortable life of me doing most of the chores, being with the toddler 4-5 days out of the week and using me as a punching bag.

It seems a lot of the things mentioned in this thread is coming true.  

I'm kinda lost at what to do and having some anxiety of not knowing what will happen.  

The assets in my hands will be used for leverage but I am unsure if I want to make those kinds of threats yet.

 

I just want tonsay thank you all for all the replies.   I'm not sure what I'd do without all your information and love and support.

I am feeling so down right now.   I don't understand why she's trying to destroy my confidence.   I feel like I've been remaining as strong as possible these last few months. 

I used to be muscular.  I took muay Thai for 4 years going like 3-4x a week.  I am very skinny now within the last year since I haven't been working out as much as I used to.  A lot of it was from taking care of my toddler.   She's making fun of my skinnyness.  Telling me that men should get fatter when older not skinnier.    Saying i look like a girl.  Every now and then she'll tell me I'm not manly.

We are divorcing so I am trying to save money and make sure I have bills to pay and avoid overspending.  She makes fun of this too while she racks up her credit card bill impusively spending.

Is this what bpders do?   Or is she really out to try to destroy my confidence?  Are they even aware the kind of damage they're doing with these words?

And usually after she says stuff like this, she acts extremely nice later.   Acts normal.  I'm so thrown off

She's Splitting and likely Projecting. Realistically, since you're divorcing, it's none of her  :cursing: business, not that such criticisms in a relationship are healthy.

In my relationship, I was criticized for not being manly enough in the fix-it and emotional categories. It hurts, but chalk it up to her being mean because she is. 

Turkish,   how do we know it's splitting?  Can a normal person behave like this?  We know she's at least 100% bipolar.  Undiagnosed  for bpd.   Although has all the history of physical abuse and was abandoned by parents.   She has admitted to have fear of abandonment. 

Reason why I ask is because sometimes there's no conflict and the moment something irritates her, like something as simple as me walking slowly with her and the baby, she would resort to extreme hurtful comments.

While I can't vouch for current patterns, it is well known that in decades past insurance didn't cover Borderline PD (viewed for a long time as untreatable or unresponsive) and since the behaviors were similar to Bi-polar, that was often the diagnosis... so insurance would cover the doctor visits.

However there is a difference... Bi-polar is largely a chemical imbalance and there are drugs that can adjust those levels.  On the other hand, while drugs may help moderate Borderline behaviors to an extent, the real need is for intensive therapy over years.  Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT & CBT) have been credited as the better available therapeutic approaches.

Also, it can be that an individual suffers with more than one issue, called co-morbid.

When I was still married to my now-ex, it became worse and worse over time, especially after we had a child.  In the morning I would leave a spouse who was reasonably normal and I didn't know whether I'd return to a ranting and raging spouse.  Or in the morning I would leave a spouse who was ranting and raging and I didn't know whether I'd return to a reasonably normal spouse.  Predictably unpredictable.

I recall one time I came home in the evening and was relieved that she was calm.  Then in the middle of her describing her day's events she suddenly transformed, her face contorted, she became a different persona and it was all because something she was telling me had triggered her.

It wasn't long before our marriage imploded.  The final couple years I'd been desperately trying to hold it all together but the triggers, traumas, behaviors, entitlement and twisted perceptions were just too much.

I absolutely cannot show any negative emotion.  Not even the slightest.   The moment I "sigh" because of something ridiculous that she repeats, she'll attack me by saying I'm yelling.  And this sigh would only come out after she repeats it until I get annoyed.

This morning she did this and repeatedly say "I have trauma I have trauma I can't take you yelling".   I just walked into my room.  I never really understood why having a child would make these effects much worst and I am experiencing it.  It's so hard to explain to people.  

Dr. Ramani in one of her interviews said that she is all for narcissist and bpds to be together in the same house hold as long as they don't have children.   I get it now.  

They simply cannot handle the stressors that comes with a child and they end up blaming those stressors on their partner daily.  And this is due to having zero awareness.


She has quit our coparenting/former marriage counselor session and she is doing therapy on her own.  How do you guys think this will go?  Will she lie in there or will she actually be truthful and eventually the therapist will figure it out and maybe she will do DBT?

I haven't yet figured out how thatll work to be honest because of my experience with her in our cosessions.  But in our sessions, she viewed it as a competition so there was too much manipulation and trying to get the therapist to side with her.  

Eventually our therapist figured it out (after a year of therapy twice a month) when she got me to behave like a Grey rock (she is an older therapist so she probably didnt know the term) but she coached me to do it.   That happened for like a year and my ex still had bad behaviors.  Now that our therapist figured it out, the last session she accused her of "always siding" with me.  Oh well.

So I can't really imagine what would happen if she goes to a therapist on her own.  Will she tell the truth about things?   It would be a waste of money to go in and just lie for validation.

Anyways, I feel a lot better from the other day.  I just have to accept this current "prison" I am in and know there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I am constantly shifting from hating her and feeling sorry for her because she would rage and say gruesome stuff to me to destroy my confidence and then an hour later would be extremely nice.   It is just way too weird.  Now I can see why the victims start to think they're bpd or narcissistic.

I was actually questioning myself a few weeks ago.  

There is some research suggesting that pwBPD tend to seek out therapy to work out relationship conflicts, not work on themselves.


I disagree. For someone who is starved for validation, paying to be validated probably feels well worth the cost.

 

This is splitting. She cannot reconcile the good and bad parts of people around her. It was a helpful adaptation as a kid. Now it's destructive.

We see little kids do this. We help them regulate emotions so they can begin to integrate good/bad in others (a developmental stage). Your wife is an adult and these patterns have worn deep grooves.

She cannot self-soothe so she throws fits and has no way to comprehend there is another way to exist. People cannot be trusted unless she can complete a transaction with them, and that experience is fleeting.

Also, you cannot have confidence because then she won't have company. She hates herself. She hates you. She wants you to hate yourself. Now you're all miserable and no one is better than the other.

Is the light at the end of the tunnel moving to different apartments?

It sounds like she has not yet agreed to sign the papers?

Hi Engiebpd,
I have read all your texts on this thread and totally sympathise with you for what you’ve been through.

The advice on this site has been incredibly insightful too and I thank God for this awesome community we can all rely on.
Four months ago I was in a similar situation as you are in but I am a female in my 30s divorcing a male ubpd following DV.
In my experience you have to be unpredictable and stop giving her tge heads up as to what’s important to you and your child.
In addition to stonewalling, another bpd/narc trait is sabotage.
Say you have mentioned that this and that is important to your sons well being, she will go ahead and sabotage it. My experience was with my sons skin condition, I kept reminding him of the things that made it worse and guess what, he goes around to undermine my instructions ( I’m a trainee medic) to ensure my sons skin condition gets worse.
So I have learned to state the opposite in some matters such as the assets that he is refusing to share. During our arguments I have stated that I will gladly fight this mess in court to the point of using all the assets on solicitors fees.
I have moved out of the family home and I took our 2 children with me 300miles across the country. He lives in the family home awaiting the finalising the divorce. I’m sure he is racking up bills to reduce my share of the assets but I’m not bothered because I am free.
Someone once said in dealing with the disordered be prepared to count your losses.
If I were in your situation I wouldn’t live in thesame apartment complex with your ex. I understand your doing it for your child but the healthiest boundaries you can set with the disordered is no contact or minimal contact. Don’t forget that she may stalk you after moving out and by living close to her you are giving her more power over you.
It is also in your child’s interest to live totally separate and far from her so that you can regain your confidence and peace.
Take care

Hello Engie,
I read this this whole thread and it has helped me a lot. My wife was recently diagnosed as BPD and in a mental hospital right now. Reading through your experience helps me see that maybe she is a bit illogical. She blames my lack of helping around the house to us losing connection. Now I am not perfect but I feel I try to help as much as I can without burning out. I am the bread winner and coming home to doing chores 50/50 seems a bit unfair.

Recently she is dead set on a divorce. I have not seen any evidence of infidelity. All I get from her is she is unhappy. I too worry about our 20 month old daughter. However, I like your perspective of providing her a more stable life apart than a chaotic one together. The fact that she is so young and will not remember much of a "family" unit is also some relief. We have not talked logistics about anything or even started to proceed with the divorce but this thread is helping me to think a bit more clearly and focus on my daughter.

Hi Tangle,

A high conflict divorce that requires heavy cost lawyers is one I am trying to avoid.   My Grey rock behavior and being nice and non confrontational has so far allowed me to minimize conflict with her.   This is useful so we don't argue around our son. The only problem is that I have to take a lot verbally and mentally without defending myself nor getting angry.

Your plans of running away with the kids is not an option for me.   She can call the cops and say I kidnapped the kids from her.  


Your wife is diagnosed,  I hate to say this but my relationship got much worst after my baby was 2.5 years old.  It was easy 2 and under.  When she became more stressed due to how tough the baby was, she blamed everything on me.  

It was illogical blaming.   You may experience worst when more life stressors occurs.  If your wife is really a cluster b, I would try to plan a way out as safely as possible without a high conflict divorce.  It's about to get messier.  

I had a very normal and great life until everything flipped on me just months ago.  She may have been nefarious before I found out but we don't know for sure.  

I've read and researched so much on narcs and bpds.  Every professional that I have listened to on youtube has said that exiting is the best way.  Listen on youtube to Dr ramani, Sam vaknin and Dr palmatier.  

1.5-2 months left

Time is almost up.   I've lost 20 lbs of muscle since last year.  I lost 10 lbs this year.  I was at 168 towards my highest.   Now I'm 148 and look scrawny.   

She still hasn't submitted her financial portion.  Mediator gave up on that and is just trying to draft the settlement up for her to sign.

She's still on and off with affair guy.   

She's blaming me for "manipulating" our counselor and also our psychiatrist for putting her on bipolar meds.   She thinks she doesn't have it.   

That's all I have on this update for now.

Thank you all for your support

Don't worry about the muscle part. You can gain it back relatively quickly once your mind is clear. Muscle memory is a thing and it'll be like getting newbie gains all over again. LOL. If you are ever curious as it pertains to the putting on muscle part let me know.

Keep your head up, be kind to you, and take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

engiebpd - your story mirrors mine very closely.  i'm still hanging in with my marriage, but it's not good.  seriously, so much of what you have said is precisely what i'm going through.  this comment:
really hit home.  lately i've been greyrocking a lot, and getting pretty good at it.  but it's hard to endure those attacks sometimes when all you want to do is lash out.  i guess i had been using my fights with my wife as my own emotional dumping ground, so now that i'm not fighting back and defending myself or allowing myself to get visibly and audibly angry, all that anger i'm having to shove down needs a place to go.  i havent figured out yet how to deal with that. 

Bipolar and Borderline are fundamentally different though with similar behaviors.  Bipolar is evidently a chemical imbalance and meds do help.  On the other hand, while meds can moderate BPD behaviors, the real solution is experienced therapy and diligently applying it long term in one's perceptions and life.

Not sure if High-Conflict Couple by Fruzetti might help but it seems like it could help you understand the nuances of your own emotions so that you're less likely to build resentment or minimize your own needs here.

HCC was written for two people with PDs (trying to imagine that ...) but honestly, it's helpful for anyone. I know toward the end of my marriage my emotions were so raw I felt all but unrecognizable. I didn't have this book but I wish I did, if only to understand the physiology of high conflict emotions and what was reasonable to expect from my myself in response to someone who seemed to fight for sport.

I am absolutely drained.  Things have somewhat gone my way that I hope it would go when this all started.  It feels like she isn't going to go at it with me hard with custody, but we will yet see until settlement is written down.

She did request for a reconciliation recently which is absolutely insane to me.   

I am just so exhausted from handling more of the babycare - probably why she wants to rconciled because od the amount of work i put into the baby.  Essentially reconciliation feels like enslavement to me at this point

It is only recent that she has been there for the baby on her days.   It's very weird.  I can see she can be a good mom for him when she is there but she is so inconsistent.   Her affair partner has been less there for her so that means she's more at home for the baby.

I don't know why I am so drained.   Is it the depression and stress that I've been fighting these last few months?   Physically and mentally, I feel like I am at my worst.  I am tired every day and can't seem to get to my important tasks.   

I have this thing about wanting to do these things when I am in my own space.  The other day I woke up with a little clear mind, I woke up listening to a podcast, doing chores, went to the gym etc... and then I get zapped into an argument with her which I tried to dodge but I got upset by how these things constantly gets me off track.  I swear, she loves drama and we are just at the age where we have 0 time for this crap.

I told her I am at my whits end and that I need her to just stay away from me.  I am a competitor and I run a sole proprietor with some contract jobs.   I recently picked up at government part time job to get my foot in the door with public service just in case I need something more stable being a future single dad.

I have various ways to make $ but it is so difficult to get to those tasks.   My resume is decent but haven't worked for a solid organization for a while.

Every week this year has been some kind of challenge that I am being put through.  It feels very weird to not have a prolonged period of time without any drama or challenge. 

We have to potty train our 3 year old so he can move up in class and even this feels dreadful with my current low energy level.

I met some friends that told me they got so much stronger and better after the divorce.   It's been so long in this physical confined space with her that I start to believe its not possible to get better. 

I have to trust the youtubers and everyone that says it gets better.

It is just so draining as I figured out that she baits me into arguments with her so she can be fed a dopamine hit.   Getting upset takes up so much of my mental energy.  I don't understand how she wants to be in that state for so long.  She cab literally argue and fight all day if I allowed it.   

She wants to just "feel" something.   It is so damn toxic and my mental brain is poisoned right now

She has moved on to a replacement.  Do you conclude she has more interest in adult relationships than in parenting?  Some pwBPD do have that inclination.

Some here too have reported that even when their ex sought as much time as possible, it was more to show their public image and later they gave up much of their parenting.  She does appear to have a comfort zone where you will eventually end up with more parental responsibilities.  Step up whenever the opportunities arise.

i'm in a similar headspace.  very hard to find motivation to do the most basic tasks.  feeling very physically tired most of the day, which is unusual for me, because i'm typically very active and fit.  i've stuck with my workout schedule which helps, but it's only discipline that's getting me through the workouts, certainly not energy or motivation.  i think the constant low level anxiety interspersed with unexpected spikes of high stress engagements are just taxing on us physically.  that's my theory anyways. 

Yes, all the things I usually do with ease gets put off a bit more.

I try to pyscholgically do everything on a micro level.   For example, If the dishes are overwhelming, I just tell myself to out away 5 dishes.  Eventually my mind will see that there are less dishes and will want to complete.   

I do video editing and it is very difficult to get through completion.   I would just have to make sure I have it all set up, then take a break and then naturally I would get to it.   

This is teaching me the importance of what I need to do to succeed as a single dad.  I am going to write everything down and do everything little by little and just follow the todo list.   I've studied this strategy before but never had the need to implement it until now.   If I don't do this, nothing gets done


"
She has moved on to a replacement.  Do you conclude she has more interest in adult relationships than in parenting?  Some pwBPD do have that inclination.

Some here too have reported that even when their ex sought as much time as possible, it was more to show their public image and later they gave up much of their parenting.  She does appear to have a comfort zone where you will eventually end up with more parental responsibilities.  Step up whenever the opportunity"

I suspect that when she knows for sure I am not going after child support, she will eventually just give him off to me.  It's similar ro what's happening in the household right now.  I am doing a ton more chores, taking the baby to his appts, taking him out to play consistently (the kid knows how to ride a bike with training wheels),  I am always talking to his therapists - she is okay with all these things because nobody knows.   I bet if I care for him 100%, but tell our circle it's shared caring she will be happy.

I do know that if affair guy ditches her, she's there for the baby.  But I can't tell if it's because of her needs in that doesn't want to be lonely.

I believe that if she gets into another romance with another guy, the cupcake stages will make her rather be with her new guy than with the baby.   Right now, it feels like she's more present because she's realizing affair partner is not really there for her (this is also why she mentioned reconciliation last week).   Affair partner keeps blowing her off.   She would even ask me to watch the baby on her days and say "I may need you to watch him, but I don't know if I am going out for sure".

She can't even get a committed date time with affair partner.

The fact that she really wants me to go out with her and the baby is really because it's too exhausting for her to be alone with the baby. 

I am certain she would have more interest in adult relationship than the baby but I know she loves the baby a lot so it's very hard to tell what will happen.

When we separate, I do not mind on paper sharing custody even if she keeps giving him off to me.   I won't go after her for child custody or anything but I will tell her she can take him out or be with him whenever she wants except for the days I'm scheduled with him.

Only time will tell at this point but I really hope it turns out this way because I don't want her to damage him with her issues.   

Settlement paperwork is on its way.   I have a question if you can please help me.  I am really confused lately.

About a month ago she wanted to go off her bipolar meds and convinced the psychiatrist that she doesn't have bipolar but has adhd.   So now she's on light dosage of Adderall because she claims and thinks she has adhd..   At that point, she was really upset at me and our former marriage counselor for "convincing" our psychiatrist that she was bipolar.  It wasn't me that said it, it was our marriage counselor.  

She said she saw extremely weird behaviors that led her to that conclusion, which was the mania that she witnessed during my ex's affair//infatuation with her new guy.

She was so emotionally and verbally abusive to me at such an extreme level.  Moments of saying I am not a man, I am probably gay, etc.   "Why don't you be the man in this house". Literally screaming this stuff at me.   This is contrary to all the good things she said about me last year to her family and friends, our marriage counselor, and psychiatrist.  All of us thought our relationship was great just last year.


Anyway, another significant thing just happened a couple weeks ago.   She got fired from her job.   It was a very good job for her that she worked for like 10 Years.   She made a lot of $ from tips at this place.  She is good looking and people tipped her well.  

Now we are a month away from moving.   Settlement paperwork is days away as I just need received and reviewed it with some adjustments.   Soon she will see it.   She's currently overwhelmed looking for a new job and wants to follow me to the same apartment complex but separate 1 bedroom units.  I am unsure how she will handle the paperwork 50/50 custody just as we agreed.  Unsure if she will sign since she is overwhelmed.

While I am a little worried about her being living close, I don't mind it as it'll make my life a bit easier with the 3 year old.  She also knows she needs to be close to the baby because he is speech delayed and the preschool we have him in is important because he's getting aba therapy and speech Therapists coming to the school to help him.   He also was kicked out from a church preschool last year because he was too disruptive.    It's a bit risky for her to move him to any area and put him in another school as the same can happen again and he'll be on the wait list again which can take months.  So this scenerio is beneficial to me.

Here's where I am really confused.  I can see that she is back to her "normal self" of trying to avoid making me mad.  It's like she turn off all the buttons that she implemented to get a reaction out of me.   She's still so lazy with the chores though but I just man handle everything for the baby.  I try not to get irritated for doing more of everything because I stay positive knowing we only have some time left stuck in these walls together.  When she will live on her own, she has to handle her own crap with the baby and I only need to worry about myself when the baby is with me.  No longer will I see piles of dishes that belongs to her.  She is an absolute mess this entire year.

We are also potty training him right now working heavily with the school and aba therapist.   Trust me, I am so friggen exhausted from everything that's coming at my life right now.  It is so much and I believe in God so it has to be some form of trial and tribulation for me.   It feels like being in a kind of prison if I were to compare my life now to last years and previous years.

How can she all of a sudden be more "nice".   There's too many factors that confuses me as to how she is able to turn off all her extreme behaviors that occurred earlier this year.

Is she not bipolar and the adhd meds are helping her?  Is she doing this in hopes I take her back ?  She did ask for a reconciliation a couple weeks ago too- which is absolutely insanity to me.  She said "maybe I needed this to learn more about myself and but I think things can be better" - she's referring to the affair, seriel dating, and freedom of going out.   Essentially, the keys to being single the last 6 months or so and doing whatever the heck she wanted that I gave her as an agreement to our divorce.  Whenever she asked to go out I said yes 100% of the time and handled the baby while she was out.

She lost her job and it made her high head come down a bit.

How are they able to just improve from intentionally be toxic to not being toxic?   I saw some of this during our relationship but always wrote off her nonsensical words and behaviors as her being emotional.   There were moments where she was somewhat rational and it led me to believe that she understood some things.    This was what allowed me to continue on with the relationship.  But then she would forget about those rational moments and then become nonsensical again.

The rational moments were when she would say how I am a great father and husband - and laying out all the things that I have done for her life.   And then some time later saying I am so awful.  

I would be soo confused because I would think in my head "you just told me that I was a good husband etc etc"

Right now, it appears she's more of that rational side but I can't tell if it's intentional.   Lately it has been making me feel so sorry for her.  Her on and off affair partner is messing with her badly.   One night he texts her offering her to move in with him.    That high came out of her again as she spent the day planning how great that would work out and that she won't have to worry about moving out on her own and he would "take care of everythin".  When she said yes, he said never mind apparently.

Then some days later, she tells me he said he can't commit to her
.   Talk about some messed up stuff this guy is doing to her life.   I cannot elaborate and tell her what this looks like to me all this time because she wouldn't listen and would accused me of being "negative".

Lately I am feeling so sad for her.   But then my memories of her being so atrocious to me earlier this year comes back and then I would be reminded why I need to leave this relationship even with a 3 year old boy in the middle.

Please help with my confusion here, I am considering booking another session with a therapist but we are a bit low on cash as I am being forced to pay for some more things because she's broke, no job, and ran her cc bills up this entire year during her mania.

Some good news is that I have been approved for another apartment and she is currently working with her family to help cosign her to live in the same complex.

Again sorry for the wall of text her but I tried to keep it short but also feel the need to provide as much information as possible because I am soo confused by her improved behavior lately.  Don't get me wrong though, she is still short wick and gets irritated easily especially when the baby is tantruming..    Still blames me for things but has improved a lot from the previous months.  

Her slight improvements has made me feel so sorry for her even though she nearly destroyed my soul this whole year.

What do you guys think about this change in behavior?  Is it intentional?   Is it due to desperation?  Or is it possible she improved?   I've read and saw too many testimonies of people saying they narcissistic and bpds improve to lure the victim back into the relationship but the next cycle will be much worst once they hook you back in.  

This disparagement is exactly what happened to me.  None of the professionals - and especially not family court - were interested in seeking a diagnosis.  The last time we were in court the magistrate wrote in the decision she needed counseling but declined to order it.  To this day nearly two decades later I still haven't heard a diagnosis.

Court does not try to fix them, it deals with people as they are.  That approach can work for us too.  Document the poor behaviors and, if necessary, return to court in the future if these new boundaries and order don't work.  That's what I did.


My marriage was great at first and then later it was "manageable" though becoming slowly worse.  What drastically triggered our relationship's implosion was having a child.  It happened so drastically we never got to have a second child.  I wonder whether that's the case with others here like you?


Extreme cycles of bad and good behavior are typical.  Perhaps it would be better to say "bad and less bad" behavior?

Yet at some point we have to ask ourselves, "Why should I put myself and the kids through this again and again?"  You can end the adult relationship and focus on doing the best you can with shared parenting.  You soon won't be a spouse anymore but you will always be a parent.  It has often been commented that as long as we are there for the kids and setting an example of good parenting in our own home, then the kids do better than in the midst of bickering and fighting parents.

Be aware that Bipolar is a chemical imbalance and meds can make a substantial improvement.  But Borderline is a cognition/behavioral disorder in which meds may moderate it somewhat, the real solution is long term therapy which is diligently applied to one's thinking, perceptions and behaviors.  Dialectical or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (DBT or CBT) is considered the most helpful - if a person applies it and sticks with it.

I hope it's ok to ask ... this is probably getting outside the lane you're in, but it might be connected to some of the confusion you're experiencing with your wife's mental health issues.

When you mention an aba therapist and speech delay, it makes me wonder if professionals suspect your son has autism?

I ask because in preschool my son presented with behaviors that in retrospect I recognize were consistent with autism but no one said anything directly. It wasn't until my son was in high school that we got a dx and one piece of the puzzle was, oddly enough, a 12-page court-ordered psyche eval done on n/BPDx.

n/BPDx was dx'd bipolar in his 20s (rejected dx), then ADHD in his 40s (accepted dx). But that didn't explain the utter insanity and extreme abuse that rained down on me and our son for the better part of a decade.

Foreverdad,  you are right and have always been spot on.   It is extreme bad behaviors to less bad behaviors.  Definitely good is giving too much credit.  I am in just confusion lately as I feel like I've lost sense of what's right and wrong because I have been engulfed by spousal extreme bad behaviors.   The only thing that didn't happen is anything physical.   This incident has definitely changed me as I don't feel as wholesome as I was before.  The fact that she has asked for an open marriage to remain being with me made me tonstart thinking that all married couples have open sex with other people but they stay together.   

I know for sure that something like that will just destroy my soul further.  I will feel like just a slave.  Everything I have done by "doing more" in this marriage was out of love.

I told some friends that something about my inner viewpoints on life has changed but can't really pinpoint what it is.  I married her believing that she was a Christian and grew up church going.

All the lies and her using tarot cards and psychics earlier this year made me start to think a demon has entered my household and that somehow she got possessed since she has behaved so differently than what she was before.   The things she said to me were so atrocious that when I have dreams of her at night, I dream about her being her old self - way more innocent.  The last 6 or so months has been unbelievable and it sickened my family and friends.  I am embarrassed to tell anyone much about the things that happened. 

I wondered if she was always like this or she changed somehow due to the stressors of life and having a baby.



This has been the weird part.   I think he is considered diagnosed autistic but when he went in to the clinic to test, he passed 3/4 tests.   The one he failed was just speech.   He's Cognitive, is able to solve problems etc.  They tried to place some wires on his head but he wouldn't let them so they didn't do it.

I've spoken to a lot of friends as well as my family and learned that that so many kids are speech delayed and they told me not to think he's autistic yet.   They've seen my child on many occasions and don't think he's autistic.  He doesn't tantrum often enough as I have seen autistic kids tantrum and can become physical.

The thing about my ex is that she exaggerates stories about him when she talks to drs. She's very extreme with her words.  I see this because of the things she says about me in our marriage counseling.   She fooled my counselor for almost a year until my counselor started to realized what was going on during our 2nd year.

IMO, he's likely just speech delayed and has occasional tantrums just like any other kid because of his inability to communicate.  The kid is smart though but is just slow on speech, probably both of our faults as werent t that consistent when talking to him.  She is better at it than me because she's a woman - all of our speech therapist are women.  I have not met a single man that does it.  It's true, that speech Therapists are usually women.

 I am kinda introverted so my energy levels of talking is not that great.  I usually have to build energy up for meetings or to talk to people.  I'm kind of a computer nerd and I am good with competition and strategy.  But I know how to get good at things like martial arts and building muscles so those activities make me less nerdy.

I've taken drama in high school so I know I can go far with speech.

It is difficult for me to constantly talk to him with an animated tone so he can hear our words.  We read to him and do talk to him but it's not every single hour of the day.  ABA therapy is essentially giving him extra exposure to someone talking at a prefessionally to kids.   

I was bad too as I made some mistakes of just giving him things I knew he wanted instead of making him ask for it.   I didn't know these things as he was my first child but I learned how to do it from observing aba therapists and speech Therapists.

At this point, they don't know 100% if he's autistic.  If he is, he isn't that high on the spectrum.  The kid can ride a bike with training wheels, do well in playgrounds, knows his shapes, and a lot of words.  He just can't string phrases together.  He understands a lot of things we tell him but he just doesn't answer sometimes but I can see he understands.

The aba therapists told me that if he's just speech delayed, then no matter what aba therapy will be good for him.  I think their approach is that if he is autistic, itll lessen his autisim sooner as he gets older or if hes just speech delay, it'll just expedite his learning in the  areas he's slow at.   

But right now, it looks like he's just speech delayed to me and maybe struggles with social interactions as a result of it. 

 But for him to get ABA therapy with our insurance, my ex was very convincing to the drs about his behavior.  I think they're doing things with "just in case" in the back of their minds.  He passed 3/4 tests, but until they put some stuff on his head, we truly won't know for sure.

My nephews and nieces were speech delayed and they grew up fine.  Again this is one of the areas that I am also very confused as well.

Overall I am happy with the aba therapy and extra speech Therapists as it just gives him more exposure other than myself or my ex.

It's good that they're providing services. Like you say, it can be helpful whether he's on the spectrum or not.

You know the saying that if you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum?

Anyway, the reason I was curious about autism is more about the hereditary nature of it.

My son is now 22. He doesn't present as "classic autism," or what used to be called Asperger's and is now considered Level 1 ASD.

In retrospect he used social strategies in very clever ways and still does. But as social interactions became more sophisticated, especially around 4th grade, he would choose to be alone, even though he had friends and kids who liked him. It was confusing. He is charismatic and you might think shy, but his autism was (and is) quite masked to most people.

When his psychiatrist suggested autism (S22 was in high school) I was floored, although slowly over time things began to make sense and now it seems clear as day. I was pretty ignorant about autism, which isn't uncommon, even when it might run in your family, which I now suspect it does.

Even more surprising, though it wasn't a diagnosis, was when my son's psychiatrist had me re-read a 12-page court-ordered psyche eval conducted on my n/BPD ex. I had given the report to the psychiatrist for background years earlier. The psychiatrist wanted me to re-read it after working with my son for years. He wanted me to see how some behaviors could be considered consistent with autism. Meaning, if n/BPDx was autistic then it would make an even stronger case to have my son tested.

This is not to say that n/BPDx does not have a personality disorder because my god the shoe fits.

However, I suspect the base layer is autism.

n/BPDx was diagnosed in his 20s with bipolar, a diagnosis he rejected. Later, he was diagnosed with ADHD, which he accepted, in part (I believe) because he loved the stimulants. ADHD and stimulants led to mania and abuse of prescription medications and alcohol.

Suspecting n/BPDx might have autism does not change how I feel about the abuse or the chaos or anything that happened, because at the end of the day, n/BPDx was a man who made willful decisions that hurt people he claimed to love. It was impossible to remain in a relationship with him.

Whether autism or bipolar or ADHD or BPD or NPD or an addict, he did not want to do the hard work and get better. And by get better, I mean say and do it. Don't just say it.

If someone does not take responsibility and take that first terrifyingly vulnerable step to make sense of who they are and how they hurt people then the diagnoses are simply an expensive way to describe bad behavior. Maybe they bring up the compassion level although for me feeling compassion from a healthy distance is a form of self-respect.

When it comes to my kid, though, I wish I knew earlier. There are so many things to learn, like using declarative language instead of imperative language. (Declarative Language Handbook is a fantastic book if a child has speech delays or social learning deficits and happens to be great for communication, period).

I would've learned about double empathy and had him work with occupational therapists and I would've believed my son when he described sensations I didn't understand. Double empathy means there is equal need for non-ASD people to understand the experience of someone with ASD, and vice versa.

You're trying to figure things out with your ex, and that's tough because you might have tendencies that predispose you to caretake her depending on what she has or not. Whatever, she has, it's probably complex and could take a long time for her or people working with her to understand.

We can't know what is going on for her, and honestly, whether it's diagnosis A, B, or C, or DEF combined, you can't fix or rescue or change or save her. Everything we talk about here on this site with boundaries applies because it's based on behaviors.

Last, and this is just ... we don't really know what to make of this because the parallels seem almost made for tv. But this post I'm writing probably already sounds far-fetched so wth  lol

My current H has a BPD ex wife. H has three kids and two are diagnosed with autism. The revelation about autism and BPD on my side of things has H re-evaluating where autism comes from on his side. Neither of us are autistic. However, H is beginning to see his BPDx in a new light, especially given what we are learning about PDD-NOS (a subtype of autism) and research being done on trait clusters.

My apologies if I'm overstating things ... I feel grief about not recognizing my son's autism and rarely talk about it.

One of my husband's kids, my stepdaughter (26), is why I'm still here on this site because she displays behaviors consistent with BPD. Being an autistic person is not what I find difficult about her though. It's the BPD behaviors that I find challenging. While I'm sure autism compounds her struggles, it's her BPD traits that cause a majority of the problems.

And trying to figure out what is intentional or not just made me feel insane. I think it is more complex than that. What is important is that it isn't consistent, whether she wants it to be or not. One may seem more evil, so if you don't want to have those thoughts give her the benefit of the doubt that she has little control over these behaviors and without top shelf care and 110 percent commitment to getting better, over a period of years, you will likely see the same stuff rip through like a cycle.

SD26 sees a therapist but my sense is she is dabbling. We think she uses therapy to triangulate family members and sometimes gets a reality check that honestly strikes me as pretty simple stuff. Meaning, despite being diagnosed and seeing a therapist, I think there are limits to what wellness will look like for her.

I'm now at a place with people who are abusive, whether it's intentional or not intentional, driving by a diagnosis or not driven by one, where I withhold trust. I might find respect, and compassion, and concern, and even love, but trust, no.

And it's hard to have a meaningful relationship with out that.

Thank you for sharing.  My ex has accused me of being autistic so it has messed with my head and made me research whether I was  an adult autistic.   I don't think I am.   If I am I may have done so much work growing up that made me fit in well.  

The social aspect of it is confusing.  There's too many factors at play.   I do have a ton of friends and close relationships.   The social parts that didn't work out for me in life are generally due to lack of understanding different cultures.  

She claims that I cant feel other people's emotions therefore I am autistic, therefore our son is autistic.  

But what you said here is probable, that she may have some autistic traits or is one.   I mentioned this to my siblings and they said to stop because nobody in our family is autistic.   They said if my son is one, it's probably coming from her family.

My ex does and say things that makes people feel weird.  I can't tell if it'd lack of awareness, lack of education, bpd, or autism.   She doesn't connect well with people because I know for certain that she doesn't want people to interact with her for a long period because she says some ridiculously weird things.  And her assessments of things is usually completely off.  

I can interact and talk with people for a long time and I am not afraid to show people who I am.  

It's possible she can be autistic herself but there are just so many factors.   When I explained her behaviors to some friends, they said this woman is a narcissist.   They don't know much about bpd or anything.   Like 5 friends of mine that have no connection with each other have told me that this is narcissistic behaviors.

The fact that she had an affair, wanted a divorce, and then proceeded to date and then get pregnant after I agreed to the divorce within matter of days shows them that she lacked some kind of empathy.   And she would explain to her family that it's okay because I agreed to it.  

Generally normal people hearing this story would be weirded out by it.  And the fact that she is oblivious to how other people would perceive her story is very strange.  Maybe autistic, lack of awareness, bpd, narcissist, who knows.  But something is just extremely off.  

 

Do you think that she feels other people's emotions?


Having autism doesn't mean you can't have narcissistic traits.  :(


How do you think she'll feel if you both lived in the same apartment complex and you began dating someone else? Maybe not right away but eventually?

She is probably BPD (diagnose bipolar) so she has a heighten sense of emotions.   But that's the problem because she behaves and acts on her emotions which is what triggered our divorce. During our relationship, I actually thought she could be an empath,  so it appears she can sense emotions more.   I really don't know though because now it could just be full blown BPD.  And I found out recently that BPD AND empaths are connected in some way.

I'm more logical and a big part of my career was intense mental  competition.  My circle of friends and I are heavy researchers and are former competitive gamers.   This history of mine allows me to know how to approach anything i learn or research with rational and reasoning.    I guess this makes me appear more of a robot according to my ex.  It hurts her head when I or anyone provide logic to her for some weird reason.

She's dating around and openly talks to me about her dating life.  I try to use logic to separate my emotions.  People think I'm crazy for allowing this but imo it provides me with some Intel as to what can happen in my future for myself and my boy.

She openly says I can date anyone so it should be okay if I have a new romantic partner.  But these are just things she says.  Who knows what will happen when she actually sees me with someone. But the fact that she sees that I am okay with her dating around and possibly have a new bf (this is not her affair partner btw),   she can't really say much.  They just can't come into this current apartment we live at with my 3 year old.  I told her she needs to wait until we physically separate.

 This new guy shes hanging out with is so into her that he may help her cosign the new apartment with her.  She still has strong feelings for the affair guy but he is just playing her and she can't see it.   Apparently she's not into the new guy as much.  We will see though.

I am a bit far from dating though.  I have to do a lot of rebuilding and self improvement.   Also I want to make sure my 3 year old will be okay.

Not that it matters what I think  *) but I find "empath" to be based on pseudo science. It's often used by people who seem to think it's based on being highly empathetic.

My stepdaughter claims to be an empath yet she is often so self-absorbed that she doesn't think about how her behaviors affect other people, only herself.

What she has is a hypervigilant radar that scans the faces and behaviors of people around her. She is often astute that people are experiencing emotions but rarely accurate about them.

Mostly she is an "empath" when she is highly distressed and emotional about inaccurate, often negative perceptions she assigns to others. Her perception becomes accurate only after she drives them nuts with her need to work through beefs of her own creation.

I'm sure there are people who take on the emotions of others to a degree that is beyond the norm. However, I think many people conflate "emotional sensitivity" with "empath" and probably aren't necessarily known for being "empathetic."

I used to think I was something like an empath into my 20s, maybe even early 30s. In retrospect, I had poor boundaries.

I Turkish.   I sometimes don't even know anymore.   I've watched so many videos on boundaries.   The general belief is that it is almost impossible to draw boundaries with bpd.   I feel like I did a pretty good job of it in my marriage the 1st few years but then let some slide because I thought they were emotional.   When the boundaries started getting worse, which coincidently is after having our first child (now I'm stuck), I pushed us into counseling immediately.

Counselor started working on it with my ex.   For me, it was the constant blaming, assuming every little thing is my fault.  An example here would be the baby waking up crying, I'd go to the crib to grab him.  She runs in and sees him crying and would say "omg what are you doing, you made him cry again".  And constant criticisms.

I don't have much experience with a relationship with a healthy mentally stable adult female so I don't know how they would take boundaries.   Will they stay around it until they know you're stuck?  Or will they respect it for life?  

I mean after the baby is 3 aka I am more stuck, she pushes the boundaries more.  

Do you still think you had poor boundaries?   I can't imagine you would just allow something that is common sense to me like flirting and cheating.   Some boundaries can be taught because some people don't know how certain things are disrespectful... so you teach them and they learn.  

But in my case, I can't even tell if I am a person that had poor boundaries or my ex a person that maintained those boundaries until she knows I was "stuck" with her aka having a baby.

I guess an example would be like an nba superstar that would remain faithful until he has 4 kids with his wife and made a ton of money thinking that she will now no longer leave him so he can get away with a lot.

My ex too claimed she was an empath.  Small world!

Our marriage counselor during our relationship was pushing my ex to do individual therapy and the counselor was upset at one point when she found out my ex wasn't doing it. 

Any possible reason?   

So earlier this year, my psychiatrist who is also my ex's psychiatrist told me that it would be good for me to do individual therapy and also my ex.   But when I was in the appt with the pysch, she says that I should go given all that I am going through is extremely difficult for anyone.   

I was a little paranoid why she was pushing me to do it and also I am a bit tired of spending $ on so much therapy lately.

I told her that I am listening to a lot of podcasts and also use the forums online for support and think that should help for the time being.

Is there any theories you guys may have as to why I would need individual therapy in light of all that I am going through?

Is she telling me to go so that I can learn that I am being abused and that she nor the marriage counselor would openly say  this because my ex is also their client?

I wonder because when I booked 2 sessions with a professional from YouTube, she was much stronger with the negative viewpoints about my ex.   Please help me understand this.  Thank .you

that should help for the time being is the operative phrase.  We here in peer support do encourage new members (and the lurkers too) to take time to inform themselves of what they're dealing with, plus skills and strategies how to address it.  After all, you can't repair a house without tools, plans and instructions, right?

However, and this is a huge however, if the poor behaviors remain, then what?  Do you want the rest of your life to be so abysmally impacted?

That's why the counseling (or therapy if you prefer the word) now shifts to include a separate and personal approach.  If the other person refuses meaningful therapy, then that is a strong signal life will continue to be dysfunctional.  In that case it is up to you to decide what YOU will do in your own life, which is why personal counseling is a positive.

Does that make sense?  You both are adults, no one can tell you what to do or not do if you don't agree.

• Your spouse is free to seek or to refuse additional personalized help.
• YOU are free to seek or to refuse additional personalized help.

Thank you Foreverdad.  I may just be paranoid.  I went to marriage counseling for over 2 years with my ex and a part of me felt like the marriage counselor milked our $.  We did it twice a month and it costed $400 a month.

I continued to go because I was was fighting so hard for the relationship and my son.  I didn't want us to divorce but I was getting destroyed by the constant arguments.  And the moments where we went 3 weeks + without sessioons, I was get into arguments with her and I was trying to get it to stop by explaining the behaviors to the counselor.


It got to the point where my ex would think i am just going in sessions "ratting" her out.   The weird thing is that the counselor seem to only give us strategies on what to do but never really explain the why's.   For example, she would tell me not to take the bait when my ex would say x,y,z.   And this actually worked because it does prevent us from arguing, I learned from YouTube that she was teaching me Grey rock essentially.

But then after some time without getting angry for probably a year, my ex went into counseling and claimed I was emotionless and was a robot.  So that became a problem.   My counselor got my ex to a psychiatrist and they put her on zoloft.   Then when my ex had the affair and showed mania behavior, counselor went to the psychiatrist and said that my ex may be on wrong meds and needs to be on bipolar meds.  This is when she became diagnosed bpd.


Overall it was just so difficult to distinguish what was happening in our sessions looking back.   Was my ex gas lighting the counselor so often that it took so long for the marriage counselor to figure out what was going on?  Or was counselor milking us?

While it is my ex-s fault that we are divorcing but she told me she doesn't like our marriage counselor anymore because she thinks our counselor failed our marriage and that it felt like she was just stringing us and treating us like a business.

I guess that's why I am hesitant to do individual counseling becuase we have poured so much $ over this and now we are divorcing.

The forums and YouTube has been helping me and I thank you all so much.

Based on what I just said, do u think the counselor wasn't telling us or me everything, or did the continued therapy take so long because my ex is just that bad?

Yes, that has been the case with me as well. In the end, I had to decide to provide a household free of this behavior even if for just 50% of the time.

@engiebpd - counseling or any other form of support is helpful in that it provides another perspective on your situation and is another resource to help one cope with such a situation. Additionally, therapy also helps you come to terms with the limits of your capabilities. I lucked out with a good therapist who has experience with BPD behaviors.

Additionally, each time that I gave in to BPDw (who also had bipolar), the subsequent incidents would be even more disruptive and unpredictable. In the end, I had to come to the realization that even if I could have the BPDw go to therapy for herself, I cannot make them implement those techniques when they are calm, much less when dysregulated.

This is my conclusion with this divorce.  It is better for my child to be alone with me 50% so I can teach him better in life.   Everything went from good to 2.5 years of needed marriage counseling and then absolute implosion the last 9 months.  Everything went immediately bad after having our first kid.  We wanted at least 3, and we were working on the 2nd.   Thank God she didn't get pregnant again with me.   She completely nuked our family financially, mentally, and physically.    It's so tragic.

I was telling a friend today that I never believed in divorce especially with a child, but I am witnessing and experiencing a situation where there is no choice. 

I will look into my individual therapy.   I am a week from moving out and getting paperwork signed this week.  I am just so exhausted...

Don't underestimate how much positive influence you can have if only half of the time. Though divorced 5 years now from the guy she left me for, it was a lot of dysfunction. I don't shame or accuse her, but I think that on some level my ex appreciates me being there for the kids.

Tonight, she stopped by to get uniforms and asked me to watch the kids later next month when she was going to a "next level" meditation retreat in another state. I had already watched them on some of her days when she went to a weekend meditation seminar in another part of the state last month. No problem. I'll take any extra time i can get with the kids. If things like that help her cope, then more power to her and I'll support it, no matter what I think.

Yesterday when I and the kids were at a BBQ with my friends, D11 said that mommy told her and S13 that they needed to be quiet in the mornings not to disturb her morning meditation. To my values? That means she's into herself rather than being a mother/parent. If it helps her from being "aggro" to the kids,  then more power to her, even if D11 comments upon it.

Do therapy! Marriage counseling revealed that your wife is troubled in ways that are probably co-morbid. Meaning, biological plus trauma. There was a lot there.

You've endured a lot and there is more to come, and now it's time to focus on you and you alone.

Youtube and peer support and other sources will help you intellectually understand. Therapy can help you process what is specific to you and your experience, your emotions, your history, your challenges under the care of someone skilled to walk you through new terrain, in person. Without your ex.

Related: I understand how it makes your life easier to have your ex live nearby but there's also something to be said about clean slate and strong boundaries. You deserve to define who you are without her chiming in. It might be that individual therapy helps you see the trade-offs more clearly so you can recover from what you've been through, and let there be a silver lining to all this suffering.

She signed and notarized the judgement today for 50/50.  She  looked to make sure it said joint physical custody.

I am not the one that would do sneaky things.  I was only worried that she falls in love with some guy and go with her feelings even at the sacrifice of my 3 year old and myself.  

I got very emotional about it when I drove it to our mediators office.   She eventually agreed to what she said she would do.   It was so tough because she was so unpredictable earlier this year.    The affair guy is in and out and it appears she may realize he's just doodling around.  

She's dating a new guy now who is very into her and wants commitment.  I think this factored into her signing it easier.

I don't know what to say everybody.  I feel like she is still that good person except she's a child in an adults body.  Doesn't know exactly what she's doing.  It made me really sad.   I never take advantage of her and I was praying for a fair 50/50 hoping she would not go court battle with over our child.  It would've been too devastating.

I told her in the past that I will still be there for her as a family member since we shared a child together.   We wanted to make the best and easiest decision for him.   So far, it seems like she is actually going that route with me.   I do know though that this may have been done due to her current bad situation.   With the affair guy, she thought she was upgrading her life so she pretty much dumped our marriage and wanted to take the Baby 2.5 hours away from me and his cousins (our hometown).

I'm mixed of emotions and I was listening to Sam Vaknins youtube video "separating from a bpd" and it gave me such great insight.  We pretty much have to be as soft as possible when separating and not induce trauma.   I recommend it for anyone in my situation.   He says the goal is to free yourself and avoid making a life long enemy.  

He also said that we have to also admit our faults in the separation and maybe that may have been due to being a rescuer and poor judgement on our partner decisions. I can see this but also can see how even the smartest can make these mistakes.  Not everyone learns about mental illness growing up.

This is tough, I am feeling so sorry for her even though I have been nearly destroyed in this marriage.