Behaving perfectly, except at home...

[Survive2012]

Hello, good morning from Italy,

Our son 15yo is behaving terribly at home: violent, insulting, disturbing everybody, hating us. When he isn't at home, he is well mannered, smiling, helpful, nice with people, well behaving... .

He says he hates us and wants to make life hard to us (succeeds perfectly). Are WE the problem? We asked a psyc whether we should send him to live away from home. He said he "opens" himself only at home. I am not sure about this. He seems so "normal" when not at home. He might be happy living away from us... .

What do we do?

Have you got the same situation?

Have you got advice for us?

Thanks. Have a good day,

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Good morning from New York

My dd is described by others as delightful, well mannered, smart and even her P told me she has a magnetic personality. At home she is often I'll mannered, moody and will say nasty things to us.  The therapist always tells me that this is very normal because she feels safe with us. She can let out her anger, show her dysfunctional side because she knows we love her and it is safe. We will not leave her or hate her. It doesn't make it easier but it helps me to understand.

Your son doesn't want to be away from you. He needs you. It is the place that he can feel safe and it is okay to be himself.  We have set some boundaries as to what we will accept from her and it is very hard sticking to them but the more we do the better it gets.

Griz

[Reality]

Good Morning from Toronto, Canada,

My son was very charming, kind, sweet and delightful in the outside world.  He could be monstrous at home, raging and quite impossible.

I have been thinking about structure and order and how cfh tells us that her son seems to be better in jail.  Believe it or not, for some reason, I have been interested in the Manson Family, noticing their very strange and scary behavior and even more fascinated watching Leslie van Hooten's parole hearings, as she is truly a lovely older woman now, very measured, very respectful.  How did she change? 

I see now that I needed to be very firm and consistent with my son, when he was younger, at around the age of 15 or so, when he started to de-rail from school, when he started getting off track.  Unfortunately, really, my son's behavior was still very normal in the home though and I had no idea how crazy this illness would make him.  He had lots of friends until he was 18 or so.  The BPDExtreme emerged when his friends went off to university and he lost his girlfriend.

What am I saying?  These highly sensitive souls are in so much pain that the more consistent the routines at home, the calmer and more normal the environment the better.  They need strong boundaries to contain them.  If the parents are the same every day, the same expectations, routines, sensible behavior, it soothes the pwBPD.  If the parents are taking very good care of themselves, they are calm, rational and yes, somewhat detached.

Lbjnitx's daughter had 9 months of this kind of environment, routine, daily chores and work, kind people... .when she was at her RTF.  Lbjnitx has a very calm and consistent demeanor. 

It seems to me that most of us mothers are highly sensitive, very kind souls.  Clearly, I made many mistakes; however, I found when I adopted what I call a professional manner with my son, the situation improved greatly. 

This mess isn't about us.  It is about huge emotional pain experienced by our child.  Just like newborns, our darlings need swaddling, they are too embryonic in their pain.  They need containment, kind of like a jail in the home.  They need to know that their parents are basically the same boring way every day. 

These beautiful souls charm us into trances, in a way.  They are so loveable.  They are so wise.  They are also extremely vulnerable and they need a very safe place to live.

Musings... .

Reality

[Survive2012]

Dear Gritz, dear Reality,

Thank you for your messages.

Well, I am exactly the person described by Reality... .quite boring, routine, taking care of my kids and dog, working, then doing the garden etc... .This is what my son hates!

I gave my two boys rules, love, routine, calm and quiet home, a doggy to stroke, a nice neighborhood, plenty of friends, family gatherings etc. When my son was 12, suddenly he "exploded": he was mature and good at school, full of friends... .he became unwilling to work, he overturned all rules... .Now he is stronger than me. He does exactly what he wants. No matter what I say, he does the opposite... .

I just cannot give him rules. My husband is weaker than me, and often away from home... .

I have only one great hope: that the very good psyc will get in touch with him and make him feel better.

Ciao from Italy,

Thank you, you are so warm! You are all helping me so much. For the time being, I just feel unapt to help anybody... .Everything is so new to me!

Survive

[Oneneatguy]

Very interesting post,

I have been thinking about this for the past week.  My ex wife was the same.  I think that many pwBPD have great social skills and extremely poor interpersonal relationship skills.

My ex has extremely good social skills, people would be shocked at the things she says when no one else was around.  She would insult close friends and family behind their back.

It was a Jekyll and Hyde personality.  What made matters worse, is if I raised concerns I appeared to be the crazy one.

Interesting comments that they feel they can rage around close families.  My ex never did that in front of her parents, always being the perfect daughter.  Odd little things, she smoked yet when it came to her parents they don't know she smokes she puts on an anti smoking front.

Thankfully I don't have to deal with it anymore.  It's an awful feeling being raged at.

[Reality]

I just cannot give him rules. My husband is weaker than me, and often away from home... .

I have only one great hope: that the very good psyc will get in touch with him and make him feel better.

Survive2012,

Just curious.  What do you mean your husband is weaker than you?  I am being very nosy here and I hope you understand that I am not asking you to answer.  It is just that I have been told by a social worker, who heads Family Psycho-educational groups that she notices that the parents are often very similar, a highly sensitive mother and a rather distant, uninvolved father.  You know, now that my son is dead, my husband realizes that his ways could have been quite different, more involved with my son.  He says that he didn't realize how serious the problem was.  How he missed that piece is beyond me!

I have been reading a book by Michael Reist, a high school teacher with 30 years experience, called Raising Boys In a Modern World and he talks at length about how he sees this same pattern over and over again, mothers shouldering the load and fathers practising avoidance.  He thinks this contributes greatly to the problems boys are having in school and in life.  

Have you talked with your son about his father being away from the home so much?  I know it bothered my son terribly that my husband was working overseas.  

Your son is maturing into a man.  You are no longer a needed role model.  He needs to break away from you and find his groove from male mentors.  My husband was not very present, so my son had lots of male friends, but they could not provide the mature model he needed.  Too heavy a load for a young man... .

I wish now I had insisted that my husband stay home the last years.  I know that it would have made a difference.

My situation may be totally different than yours, so please understand that I am just musing and wondering... .

Reality

[Survive2012]

Dear Reality,

Very interesting what you say. I am the strongest character among the two of us. My husband is very loving, sweet, understanding. But he would never say something like: "Well, now it's bed time for kids" or anything that would mean:":)o this". I am not criticising, it's just the way it is and has always been. My husband accepted the rules I gave the kids because he saw they worked well, and they really did until our dog died and our 12yo son got so upset everything turned upside down.

After this, we had a lot of discussions where we wondered whether it was because I gave too many rules, or because he was working too many hours a day, or because his brother was not friendly enough, or we got the wrong school and so on.

We really don't know. Something we agree on is that we gave our sons a good base and a loving surrounding. One is doing ok, perfectly happy, full of hobbies, working well at school, friendly with us. The other one is sad, hates our society, criticises us, friends, classmates, hates everything of his close family BUT as soon as he closes his home door, acts as if nothing was wrong... .

What Oneneatguy says rngs a bell. We too have the feeling of Dr.Jekyll and Mr Hide.

Thank you for asking, Reality. If you care you have to ask... .that is sweet of you!

Survive  

[lbjnltx]

I believe that the rising rates of mental illness is tied to the decline of the family unit... .

As Reality mentions, the male role model in the home is important.

Divorce rates and single parent families contribute to the demise of the children in many ways.

I believe children need the female and the male role model.  They also need the mother/father, husband/wife relationship model!

For a few years I listened to Dr. Laura... .I agreed with a great deal that she said and a few things she didn't... .one of the things I didn't understand on the level she presented is this quote "If you love your children make the marriage work."

Now that I am married with a child and much much much older I see the powerful meaning in those words.

[Being Mindful]

I believe that the rising rates of mental illness is tied to the decline of the family unit... .

As Reality mentions, the male role model in the home is important.

Divorce rates and single parent families contribute to the demise of the children in many ways.

I believe children need the female and the male role model.  They also need the mother/father, husband/wife relationship model!

For a few years I listened to Dr. Laura... .I agreed with a great deal that she said and a few things she didn't... .one of the things I didn't understand on the level she presented is this quote "If you love your children make the marriage work."

Now that I am married with a child and much much much older I see the powerful meaning in those words.

Once again lbj, we have common ground. These are my beliefs too. I have been a follower of Dr. Laura too for a long time. I also believe that when our society moved away from multi-generations living together that much was lost.

[Reality]

I also believe that when our society moved away from multi-generations living together that much was lost.

Being Mindful,

That lack of multi-generational support fed into our troubles.  My mother is BPDExtreme and she was/is insanely jealous of me and did everything in her power to keep my father away from our home.  My son was so much like my father and that lack of contact definitely fed into his disorder.

My BPDbrother also played his part in this mess, spreading lies about my children and me, aiding and abetting my mother.  They both made sure we were always isolated... .

Reality

[Kate4queen]

My BPD son was the same. To almost everyone outside our immediate family he is witty, charming, smiling and very charismatic. He also has mild cerebral palsy so all his life people have bent over backward to help him. We've struggled for years to tell people how the moment he gets into our car or house he is a nightmare. We call him the Toxic terminator because "Nothing would stop him coming after you and screaming and raging and threatening us until he got what he wanted. Usually because we had to safeguard our other kids we'd give in, so he was enabled by us and by society's attitude to a disabled kid. No one believed he could be the problem and he happily manipulates everyone he meets first to make us look like the parents from hell.

Occasionally someone else sees the real him and they are usually horrified, at which point he cuts off communication with that person and they become evil beings like us.

We're still dealing with his lies (well his version of reality)  to this day and even though he's moved out 3 miles down the road to a new more supportive loving family (his words) he's still trying to manipulate and control us from there.

It's not working so well now we have set firm boundaries and have not asked him to come back (something we've done previously). he can't physically get at us for the first time and that is wonderful.

He's still dependent on us financially so we control that too. He's 21. It was time to save the rest of our family and although it is very sad, stressful and heart wrenching, we're not gong to let him dictate our emotional wellbeing anymore.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Survive2012]

Good morning!

Thank you for your messages.

I agree that the multi-generation families of the past were much healthier for kids to grow in. Less tensions, more people, all ages. Now, small families with only two generations. Great expectations for the children who have to be always at the top.

Nevertheless, in our home, we were happy and loving to each other. The only thing that I can imagine as not good was my husband working too many hours and me, the mother, giving the rules.

Kate4queen, our son too stops the relationship as soon as someone discovers his behaviour at home.

It is very sad to see our son suffer and not wanting us to help him. We love him desrly but can't approach him.

Have a good day,

Survive

[js friend]

survive2012,

My dd18 is generally the same as you describe your son. To the outside world she comes across as charming, but when she lived at home she behaved like a tyrant. The rages were awful and she seemed to be consumed with anger all the time.

Outside of my immediate family dd portrays herself as a meek and mild waif, with beautiful manners who has been hard done by the world. She is usually good at keeping this charade up, but over xmas members of our extended family who came to visit actually saw how she behaves most days. She was rude to almost everyone in one way or another.She ignored them, barged past them, left the room when they entered, spoke rudely and  isolated herself.

Those who had never seen this side to her where shocked by her rudeness and tried thier best to keep out of her way.

They went away seeing exactly what I had been describing all these years.  


Interesting Oneneatguy describes his exwifes poor interpersonal skills, but good social skills.

I know some pwBPD can hold down pretty demanding jobs and work for years, but I dont think this will apply to my dd, and I have come to the conclusion that my dd is low functioning without the obvious self harm.

I would have to say that growing up dd  never had very good interpersonal or social skills. She always seemed afraid and very timid even from birth, but seemed to get by one way or another. Now when I think about it I dont think dd ever really developed these skills fully and has just a basic primative knowledge of these skills to get by. Weirdly yet in another way she is very good at being secretive and has planned really elaborate deceptions in the past.

[Survive2012]

I wonder whether you notice the same thing as I do... .

My son 15yo, perfectly well behaving when not at home has a strange aspect, though, that I noticed: when he tells a joke, it is often a strange joke... .his humour never makes me laugh (although I would so much like to laugh!) (of course, I act as if the jokes were funny, but they aren't very much). He is very bright, intelligent, sociable, easy going etc (out of home). This lack of sense of humor kind of "doesn't go with" the rest of him outside his home.

Have you noticed something similar in your kids?

Good day!  

[js friend]

YES... .survive2012!

I have noticed a very similiar thing about my dd's humour.

My dd can tell a joke but with a flat tone to her voice.You know... .like there is no build up to it. Just flat.  Everything she says is with the same tone. Its hard to describe... .but Ive noticed it. She doesnt seem to have the non verbal body language and expressions that goes along with telling a joke succesfully if you know what i  mean. She never laughs at herself and laughs at things I dont particularly find funny. Like if someone gets hurt. Not in a serious way. But like if someone trips over something or if someone bumped into someone else she would find it hysterical... .She nearly wet herself lauging when i bumped my elbow the other day... .her humour is a bit immature i suppose.

[Survive2012]

OK, I will make a new topic of this lack of humor. Let's see if there are other people who noticed the same as we have.

[Reality]

I wonder whether you notice the same thing as I do... .

My son 15yo, perfectly well behaving when not at home has a strange aspect, though, that I noticed: when he tells a joke, it is often a strange joke... .his humour never makes me laugh (although I would so much like to laugh!) (of course, I act as if the jokes were funny, but they aren't very much). He is very bright, intelligent, sociable, easy going etc (out of home). This lack of sense of humor kind of "doesn't go with" the rest of him outside his home.

Good day, Survive2012,

What do you mean by strange joke?   Dies the joke seem to indicate a shift in being, from Dr Jekyll to Mr Hyde?  :)o you mean he isn't aware of his audience?  

Reality

[Survive2012]

Dear Reality,

I think it is my english that isn't good enough. Sometimes I don't have the right words to tell. When I say that he "tells a joke" I mean he tells a "funny story" or a sentence that is supposed to make the people laugh.

I will tell you an example:

While leaving our street with my car, I see my eldest son waiting at the corner of the street. I ask him "Are you waiting for a friend". He might answer:"No, I was just here waiting for you to ask me this question" (a normal silly joke, a sentence that makes you smile and that's it)

In the same situation, if I ask my 15 yo son he can answer: "No, I'm here waiting for my customer who is coming to buy the heroin I have in my pocket" (he has no addictions). This is good humor for him, but it doesn't make me smile!

 

Survive

[Reality]

Dear Survive2012,

Your English is brilliant!  You express yourself far better than we do often, I think.  I find people who speak English as a second-language have to work at it more diligently and the thoughts are more complex somehow. 

Your example could have been taken straight from my son's mouth.  I have a message on my phone that he left years ago, probably when he was 16 or so, saying, " I am in the ganglands of Ontario dealing drugs... ." 

A different reality.  I think pwBPD are in trances, places of total non-cognition.  They sound as if they live in another world.  I guess they do.  The same trancing place where great art and music lives, but a dangerous place to live non-stop.

Reality

[Survive2012]

Dear Reality,

It is amazing to hear how sometimes the behaviors are so similar among the BPD persons.

I still have a hope. My son has not been diagnosed BPD. We know there is something that is upsetting him very very much. The psyc are going to enquire. I hope he can be healed.

However, when a psychologist told me the name BPD and I had a look in the net I was shocked to find how I could see our family when reading of BPD families... .So there must be something of the BPD in our young man, I am afraid.

Do you have other children than the one who died?

Have a good evening,

Survive

[Reality]

Dear Survive2012,

Thank you for asking about my family.  Yes, I have a living son, who is 26, bless his heart.  He has completed his university degree in business and history and has completed his Private and Commercial Pilots Licences.  He is looking for a job as a Flight Instructor; however, he is quite low and he misses his brother terribly, so we are letting him take it easy for as long as he needs.  The trauma of losing a brother is shattering his whole being right now.

Have you read Valerie Porr's chapter on Mentalization?  Mentalization focuses on understanding the misunderstandings that occur within relationships by changing how a person perceives interpersonal situations and experiences, lots of listening and understanding, lots of conversation.  Two British doctors, Anthony Bateman and Peter Fonagy, created MBT from Cognitive Behavior Therapy and Psychodynamic Therapy.  Mentalization  relies less on technique and lingo and encourages a more complex, yet personal approach when communicating with a person with BPD, in my opinion.  You can watch Dr Anthony Bateman on You Tube to see him modeling Mentalization.  I found that my son's logic was brilliant, once I stopped judging and started really listening to what he was saying, probing his thinking for clarification, for explanations... .the more I conversed with my son, the more I saw how his complex and very subtle reasoning was very sound.

You know, people with BPD do get better.  The video, Back From The Edge:Borderline Personality Disorder, available on You Tube demonstrates without question that people can lead fulling functioning lives once they have mastered the necessary strategies for dealing with emotional distress and emotional pain.  

I see BPD as a societal disorder, rather than as a distinct psychiatric pathology.  Once isolation feeds the genetic predisposition of exquisite sensitivity, though, the disorder churns like a whirling dervish.  The highly sensitive soul seeks solace in non-reality, in trancing, in Peter PanLand, in escape of any kind... .cutting, drugging, eating, being by one self... .

Just some thinking of mine... .

Reality

So you understand, we tried for over 8 years to find out what was happening with my son.  It was a family friend, who told me about BPD a year and a half ago and four months later, the diagnosis was corroborated by professionals.  We needed the information when we started to be concerned when he was 15 and he became ever so slightly less mainstream, less normal.  With his girlfriend leaving him at 18, the stage was set for a full-blown BPD disaster.  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[trainwreck4]

Survive 2012,

  Last fall, my BPDd15 came home with 80's in gym and music, and a 60 in geography, and a 43 in science. As I always do, I arranged a meeting to see what she could do to bring this mark up.  The odd part was the handwritten note from the vice principal.  It read as follows,  "x is a very conscientious student that cares deeply about her marks. She is very concerned and wants to do better".  She has never had grades like that before. At the meeting, her science teacher, guidance counselor, vice principal, learning support teacher, and gym teacher (?)explained that my daughter is such a nice, caring, loving girl... .  To which I replied that I thought so too, but what about her scienmark?  They went on to say again what a nice, blah, blah, blah, girl she is to which I again redirected to the task at hand, science.  After a few more similar rounds, I lost my patience and said "yes, I get it.  If this was Barbie Charm School, my daughter would be valedictorian, but this is high school and she is here for an education!". Unbeknownst to me, my BPDd15 had been hinting at abuse in our home and telling all kinds of tall tales. They were so dazzled by her charming personality, they did not see why I was disenchanted with her science grade. I have come to the conclusion that she is a high functioning (for now anyway) BPD.  But at home, she was having violent outbursts, abusive to myself and my husband, and contemptuous to the three younger ones.  But at school and at her place of employment, she was totally sweet!  I left that meeting so confused!  I really had no idea what was to come later... .!

[Survive2012]

Dear Reality, Dear Trainwreck4,

Sorry I only read now your post! It went on page 2 and I lost it, and so I did with Trainwreck4's!

I am reading Valerie Porr's book very slowly because, at the same time, i translate it into italian. I am sure there are plenty of families in the same situation as we are, and they deserve a family guide book. So I haven't reached the mentalization part yet.

Trainwreck, my son's teachers too think he is very bright and so nice etc. But he is not studying since november, and in Italy you have to pass the year every month of june, otherwise you stay for the second time in the same class. My son wants to quit school, and this makes me very sad. He is such a smart chap... .  His passion is history and he loves literature. He has read hundreds of good books... .  What a pity to stop abruptly going to school, isn't it?

Have a good afternoon,

 Survive