Am I making too much of this?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

The latest mess started 1.5 weeks ago while I was out of town on business.  UBPD ex picked d10 up from school and was to keep her until I got home later that night.  Ex ended up suggesting that he keep d10 overnight and I agreed.  While talking with d10, I mentioned that I was going to see a movie with a friend since she was staying with her dad.  D10 asked if I was going with "S" and I said yes.  She likes my friend and he treats her well, sometimes acting like a kid himself.

Let me give a little history here.   The friend is a guy whom I've known about 10 years.  Dated him once while the ex and I were broke up, but decided that we were better off as friends.  The ex is extremely jealous that this guy is back in my life and tells d10 horrible things about my friend.  Once he found out about my movie plans that night, he told dd that he hoped my friend would choke and die on the popcorn... .   among a few other things, this being the worst.

Now here's were it gets a bit crazy.  D10 offered up a lie to her dad... . maybe to get on his good side?  Not sure, but it created a lot more conflict than what was already there.  She willingly told her dad that she had seen me sit on "S" lap many times.  This, of course, is not true, but the ex latched onto it and I was painted blacker than black that night.  This was the first time (that I'm aware) that d10 has trashed me like this.  She confessed to the lie once she came home the next day and said she had wanted to make her dad more sad.     My male friend thinks that maybe the ex "rewards" her for the information by paying more attention to her and giving more love (if that makes any sense).

The ex is a very closed off person.  Not real affectionate, loving, or anything really unless it was in the bedroom.  I spent many years doing stupid stuff to try and get him to open up and be all the things he isn't.  I see d10 doing things to get his attention and can relate to her and why.  The thing is, it's never going to be enough.  Anyway, I grounded her for lying, and told her that she could see her dad once he calmed down (he was in quite a rage, telling me I shouldn't do those things with d10 around, etc... .   ). 

Fast forward to now and he hasn't made any attempt to see her although she has called him several times.  I had asked him to not contact me anymore (because of the out of control rages), but he has texted once and emailed a few times since then.  Part of me doesn't want to let her go with him anymore.  He gets so out of control, what's he going to say to her next time?  D10 has become his verbal punching bag.  She hears ALL this stuff and he's not shy about what he tells her.  Everything is fair game.  Government, racial/homophobic slurs, negative comments about people in general... .   whether he knows them or not.  These are things you discuss with family or friends (or not!), but not your 10yo daughter.

I haven't discussed this with my L yet.  I know here-say in court is just that and I know I can't control what he says or does when dd is with him, but if she's offering up lies to make him happy (end result = gets her the attention she craves, love), I feel I need to do something... .   but what?

[Untouched]

The latest mess started 1.5 weeks ago while I was out of town on business.  UBPD ex picked d10 up from school and was to keep her until I got home later that night.  Ex ended up suggesting that he keep d10 overnight and I agreed.  While talking with d10, I mentioned that I was going to see a movie with a friend since she was staying with her dad.  D10 asked if I was going with "S" and I said yes.  She likes my friend and he treats her well, sometimes acting like a kid himself.

Let me give a little history here.   The friend is a guy whom I've known about 10 years.  Dated him once while the ex and I were broke up, but decided that we were better off as friends.  The ex is extremely jealous that this guy is back in my life and tells d10 horrible things about my friend.  Once he found out about my movie plans that night, he told dd that he hoped my friend would choke and die on the popcorn... .   among a few other things, this being the worst.

Now here's were it gets a bit crazy.  D10 offered up a lie to her dad... . maybe to get on his good side?  Not sure, but it created a lot more conflict than what was already there.  She willingly told her dad that she had seen me sit on "S" lap many times.  This, of course, is not true, but the ex latched onto it and I was painted blacker than black that night.  This was the first time (that I'm aware) that d10 has trashed me like this.  She confessed to the lie once she came home the next day and said she had wanted to make her dad more sad.     My male friend thinks that maybe the ex "rewards" her for the information by paying more attention to her and giving more love (if that makes any sense).

The ex is a very closed off person.  Not real affectionate, loving, or anything really unless it was in the bedroom.  I spent many years doing stupid stuff to try and get him to open up and be all the things he isn't.  I see d10 doing things to get his attention and can relate to her and why.  The thing is, it's never going to be enough.  Anyway, I grounded her for lying, and told her that she could see her dad once he calmed down (he was in quite a rage, telling me I shouldn't do those things with d10 around, etc... .   ). 

Fast forward to now and he hasn't made any attempt to see her although she has called him several times.  I had asked him to not contact me anymore (because of the out of control rages), but he has texted once and emailed a few times since then.  Part of me doesn't want to let her go with him anymore.  He gets so out of control, what's he going to say to her next time?  D10 has become his verbal punching bag.  She hears ALL this stuff and he's not shy about what he tells her.  Everything is fair game.  Government, racial/homophobic slurs, negative comments about people in general... .   whether he knows them or not.  These are things you discuss with family or friends (or not!), but not your 10yo daughter.

I haven't discussed this with my L yet.  I know here-say in court is just that and I know I can't control what he says or does when dd is with him, but if she's offering up lies to make him happy (end result = gets her the attention she craves, love), I feel I need to do something... .   but what?

[Blazing Star]

Hi Untouched,

That must be so hard, letting your daughter go to your ex, not knowing what is going to be said, and worrying about how this is setting your daughter up to relate to her father (and her relating skills in general).

I spent many years doing stupid stuff to try and get him to open up and be all the things he isn't.  I see d10 doing things to get his attention and can relate to her and why.  The thing is, it's never going to be enough... .  

... .   but if she's offering up lies to make him happy (end result = gets her the attention she craves, love), I feel I need to do something... .   but what?

This stands out for me, I think your insight here is great, and key to it all.

You are right, you cannot control what he says or does, your concern lies with her.

In your shoes, I would have a chat with my daughter, I would be very honest (gentle and age appropriate) and talk about how he is, I would also talk about how I was with him - the things I would do to get him to give me some attention.

I would validate her feelings, and talk about how hard I found it when he wouldn't give me the attention I craved.

I might tell a story about a time I lied to make him happy/more loving/more responsive/interested in me - even if negatively.

I would also reassure and affirm that he is the way he is, that we need to remember that.

That I am here for her to talk about it any time, any of her feelings, which may be conflicting and confusing - again I might tell a story about a friend that I loved, but also felt hurt and confused by.

I might also express my worry about sending her to her father's, worry that she is going to come back talking about people in a way that is not nice (racism, homophobic etc) and affirm that we are all entitled to our own opinions.

I wouldn't talk about all of this in one go, rather on a few occasions. Sometimes casually, sometimes more focused. I would probably have a mental list of the things I wanted to address with her, and over a few weeks bring them into conversation. I would also try to help her explore her feelings about all of this - perhaps before I started going through my mental list.

Do you think she would respond to an open dialogue like this?

And do you think it would help you to feel more comfortable sending your daughter there?

Love Blazing Star

[Untouched]

It is very difficult to send her with him knowing what he says and does.  He is a loose cannon; ready to go off at any time.  He claims he's being "brutally honest", yet can't tell the truth to save his life.  I have talked with her a few times briefly.  She seems to understand what I say, but will turn right around and defend him and his actions.  Case in point?  I explained that it was not a good thing to wish death upon any person (most of what she hears at dad's contradicts what she learns at her Christian school).  She'll defend him by saying that dad doesn't like "S" and that's why he said it. 

She mentioned last night that it feels like someone is trying to keep her from her dad.  She made sure to say that she wasn't naming my name, but just "someone".  I assured her that I hadn't heard from her dad about dates/times that he's able to get her. 

Just out of curiosity and nosiness after what d10 said, I unblocked him on FB this morning.  He had blasted me a few times about the issue I posted here... .   nothing new there.  Random posts about how crazy I am, yada yada.  One post he made about how I keep d10 from him and go against the CO and there's nothing he can do.  Of course, his friends don't know he's texting asking to see me and spend time together.  They feel sorry for him and jump in to call me a B---- and lunatic.  I see his game plan now.  He likes playing the victim and does it pretty well. 

[Blazing Star]

Oh how frustrating and hard that must be! Great that you have outed him as playing the victim, this clarification will help you to  stay out of the Drama Triangle with him! 

Re your daughter, it sounds like she is struggling too, you could try keeping it about your feelings and not so personal to him if she is defensive about him. Like her saying ":)ad doesn't like S and that's why he said it" a causal "Hhmmm, well for me, I wouldn't feel good wishing death on someone, and of course it is fine not to like someone. I try to keep in mind how that person would feel if they heard me talk about them". Or even "Yes honey you are right, that is very perceptive of you to see that Dad is saying that bc he doesn't like S, how do you deal with it when you don't like someone?"

And the 'someone' keeping her from her Dad comment - wow that must have been hard to hear, amazing that you kept your cool! If you are able to do this you could also try validating her feelings "Oh honey it must be hard feeling like someone is keeping you from your Dad".

I understand how frustrating this must be! Do you have a Therapist that you have worked with, or know anyone who would be qualified to advise you on how to deal with and help your daughter?

Love Blazing Star