Has anyone heard about this?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hello

Yesterday I posted in the Staying board, but today I´m almost decided to let it go. I was chating on facebook with my uBPDexgf and she told me that she can´t be with me BECAUSE I LOVE HER. I told her that when I wasn´t sure, she was all anxious and everything, and she said that she was like that because she´s very proud and doesn´t like to be rejected, but that she prefers to be with someone who rejects her than with someone who loves her, because she´s afraid of being loves more than loving, and of feeling trapped (engulfment fears). Is this crazy or what?

She also came to chat because she had been vomiting all day, because yesterday she got involved with a guy in a date, someone she had been chatting with on facebook for a week and she hadn´t met before. And she was feeling very guilty today, she felt that she betrayed me. So, I think that´s as far as I was willing to take.

I only want to ask anyone if this crazy thing of not being able to be with me if I don´t love her, and also if I love her, is something anyone has come across with around here, because I haven´t read such kind of behavior in here.

Thanks

[whatathing]

Hello

Yesterday I posted in the Staying board, but today I´m almost decided to let it go. I was chating on facebook with my uBPDexgf and she told me that she can´t be with me BECAUSE I LOVE HER. I told her that when I wasn´t sure, she was all anxious and everything, and she said that she was like that because she´s very proud and doesn´t like to be rejected, but that she prefers to be with someone who rejects her than with someone who loves her, because she´s afraid of being loves more than loving, and of feeling trapped (engulfment fears). Is this crazy or what?

She also came to chat because she had been vomiting all day, because yesterday she got involved with a guy in a date, someone she had been chatting with on facebook for a week and she hadn´t met before. And she was feeling very guilty today, she felt that she betrayed me. So, I think that´s as far as I was willing to take.

I only want to ask anyone if this crazy thing of not being able to be with me if I don´t love her, and also if I love her, is something anyone has come across with around here, because I haven´t read such kind of behavior in here.

Thanks

[pallavirajsinghani]

Yes.  It is a phenomenon that I read about repeatedly on this site.  The BPD sufferers have a fear of engulfment.  Their, push-pull cycle is a result of this.  As you learn more about this disorder, this pattern will become clear to you. 

I am sorry that you are going through this.

I think that learning more about this disorder will help you a great deal.

Also, learning about the effect of this disorder on individuals who have a relationship with BPD sufferers, and/or who love them... .   will also be of immense help to you.

I am glad that you are here with us.

God bless.

[whatathing]

Hello pallavirajsinghani. Thank you for your reply.

I´ve read a lot and found much information on co-dependency, etc., and it has been a great journey. But regarding that engulfment fear, the thing is that with her, it comes if she feels that I love her, not if she feels that she loves me or that we are getting intimate. And she says specifically that she prefers to be with someone who rejects her than with someone who loves her... .   is this still frequent?

Thanks!

[hithere]

And she says specifically that she prefers to be with someone who rejects her than with someone who loves her

I think what she is really saying is that she, on some level understands that when someone loves her she pushes them away, so by default she has concluded she needs someone that rejects her... .   yes it makes no sense and of course she won't be happy this way.  But that is the nature of BPD, it is a really illogical illness.

[grad]

Yes, it is very possible.  The thing they want the most, to be loved, also triggers their fear of abandonment.  If you read the forums for pwBPD, they will reinforce what is said here.

The reasoning behind this paradoxical nature is because when the pwBPD starts to care, that triggers the engulfment and abandonment fears.  If they start to care, then they have something to lose, and since they can't deal with loss they start to push you away.  It's very difficult for them to accept vulnerability and it takes time and (almost always therapy) for them to overcome these fears.  A pwBPD feels empty inside and although they want to be loved and love in return, they also don't feel like they're worthy.  It takes time, patience, and the right chemistry for a r/s to work.  If she truly does love you and can learn to accept it, she will return.  Otherwise she'll seek her needs elsewhere.  Do not pressure her, be understanding, and also don't focus on trying on anything more than maintaining your friendship.

[whatathing]

Ok, thank you very much. I think that in her, the engulfment fears are much higher than the abandonment fears, since she can´t deal with me  when I assume that I love her.

So, I should be a friend, and validate her while she goes in an adventure, flirting and making out with another man? That´s my limit, I can´t do that. It´s incredible, I mailed her today telling her exactly this, that my limit had come and that for me all was over. She hadn´t talked with me by phone or live for 2,5 months, it was only by text chat, but the day I mailed her telling this, she phoned me a couple of hours later crying and saying that she misses me and that she wished that she could be with me without becoming disregulated. I asked why didn´t she tell me that before my decision, and anytime these last 2,5 months, and she said that while I was wanting to be with her and saying that I loved her, she was afraid that if she said that she missed me that I would think that she loves me and hope that she joined me, and she couldn´t deal with the responsability of sending me dubious messages that could give me hope, because she doesn´t want me to lose time with her that she can´t give me certainties.

She said that I´m the only person who she trusts and that she´s all alone, in spite of living with parents and 3 brothers and sister. I had to soothe her by telling her that I´ll be friends with her, and that I´ll be here for whatever she needs. Crazy... .  

thanks

[grad]

Ok, thank you very much. I think that in her, the engulfment fears are much higher than the abandonment fears, since she can´t deal with me  when I assume that I love her.

So, I should be a friend, and validate her while she goes in an adventure, flirting and making out with another man? That´s my limit, I can´t do that. It´s incredible, I mailed her today telling her exactly this, that my limit had come and that for me all was over. She hadn´t talked with me by phone or live for 2,5 months, it was only by text chat, but the day I mailed her telling this, she phoned me a couple of hours later crying and saying that she misses me and that she wished that she could be with me without becoming disregulated. I asked why didn´t she tell me that before my decision, and anytime these last 2,5 months, and she said that while I was wanting to be with her and saying that I loved her, she was afraid that if she said that she missed me that I would think that she loves me and hope that she joined me, and she couldn´t deal with the responsability of sending me dubious messages that could give me hope, because she doesn´t want me to lose time with her that she can´t give me certainties.

She said that I´m the only person who she trusts and that she´s all alone, in spite of living with parents and 3 brothers and sister. I had to soothe her by telling her that I´ll be friends with her, and that I´ll be here for whatever she needs. Crazy... .  

thanks

i think you're beginning to realize that you don't truly love her unconditionally... .   that you lack devotion and selflessness she requires.  the best definition of love i've ever been given by people i've asked came with one word, sacrifice.  

anyways, the fact that she phoned you over the email you sent and spilled what she was feeling at the time is not how she truly feels.  what you sent her hurt her and in response, she dysregulated from her guarded behavior and sought the validation she needed at the time.  pwBPD are very perceptive to others and she realizes the emptiness of your version of love and even reinforced that belief with showing defining your boundaries.  she basically can't trust being vulnerable to you. my suggestion to you is to keep contact as minimal as you can while you pursue other interests and if she starts to express a desire and level of effort you seek for something committed then reassess at such time.

a pwBPD can test devotion better than any other disorder with their fear of abandonment and push/pull behaviors.  they are very controlling and manipulative and you must really begin to understand her disorder to truly love AND accept what she is

[whatathing]

Thank you Grad, for your reply.

I´m confused, do you think that she went with another guy to test me? I don´t think so. She told me that she likes the seduction part, the conquest, and that she´s afraid that disappears in a marriage. She told me that she accepted to go out with that guy because she was curious and liked the "game". What does that have to do with testing me? I think it´s more about not being able to commit and get intimate; about feeling more comfortable with the disengaged fooling around with someone new, than with the "getting serious" of our r/s. And, I´m sorry, but I also think it has to do with not loving me. How can she be with another guy and don´t have thoughts or feelings about me while she´s at it? She even asked him what were his intentions, pondering if he could be her next "teddy bear".

I do love her, and I was with her through a lot, having and expecting very little in return. But to "stay put" while she goes having some fun with another guy, and then be here to give her what he didn´t, that´s not for me. I must tell you, though, that we both are christians and share a conservative perspective about relationships: she had never done something like that, and is against it. So, maybe this is deeper than what someone with a regular kind of values would think.

Thanks

[Clearmind]

Her sense of self is pretty fragile. She fears engulfment, intimacy and abandonment - these diatmetric feelings can cause the push/pull. "I hate you, Don't leave me".

What would you like for yourself? What would you like to see happen?

[whatathing]

The only thing I needed was her to trust me. I wanted her to be able to look at her own behavior over time and realize it was a pattern, and be able to go through the devaluation phases with good sense and patience, accepting that it´s a psychological mechanism that has to do with her inner world and would evolve again. I know, to much to ask... .  

After her being infaithful, I´d only return to her if she felt the meaning of what she did in her heart, i.e., that she could link our intimacy, our special bond, and that moment when she broke it. I think that she feels guilty because of some sense of morals, and not for the right reasons - affection.

For me, I want someone who doesn´t do this. But don´t move me to the leaving board yet, I´m still talking from an aroused emotional state.

[Clearmind]

Yes my friend you are asking too much. BPD is an attachment/emotional disorder - you cannot reason with it and you cannot intellectualize it. Its tempting to do that I know - she doesn't think/rationalize like you do.

She fears intimacy. We equate the idealization phase for intense intimacy however its fair from it unfortunately.

You now know what you don't want and you can work on you now to find a healthy relationship.

But don´t move me to the leaving board yet, I´m still talking from an aroused emotional state.

Its natural to feel fragile - be gentle with yourself

Everyone on Leaving is fragile to a degree whatathing - move there when you are ready - just know that you will be supported.

[whatathing]

Thank you very much, Clearmind

[grad]

Thank you Grad, for your reply.

I´m confused, do you think that she went with another guy to test me? I don´t think so. She told me that she likes the seduction part, the conquest, and that she´s afraid that disappears in a marriage. She told me that she accepted to go out with that guy because she was curious and liked the "game". What does that have to do with testing me? I think it´s more about not being able to commit and get intimate; about feeling more comfortable with the disengaged fooling around with someone new, than with the "getting serious" of our r/s. And, I´m sorry, but I also think it has to do with not loving me. How can she be with another guy and don´t have thoughts or feelings about me while she´s at it? She even asked him what were his intentions, pondering if he could be her next "teddy bear".

I do love her, and I was with her through a lot, having and expecting very little in return. But to "stay put" while she goes having some fun with another guy, and then be here to give her what he didn´t, that´s not for me. I must tell you, though, that we both are christians and share a conservative perspective about relationships: she had never done something like that, and is against it. So, maybe this is deeper than what someone with a regular kind of values would think.

Thanks

Seeing the other guy was a test for both of you.  In her mind, you lost in the challenge phase of early courtship, committing to someone who is empty.  In a sense, it was a test to see how you'd react as well.  It was a test for her to see if she really felt anything for you after she diverted her attention elsewhere.  The validation that you sought after the split seemed to only push her away further and probably came off as needy.  Think of it this way, she thinks of herself as broken and when she knew your feelings were stronger than hers for you she shutdown for fear of engulfment.  You wanted commitment, she lacked the patience.

[whatathing]

That makes sense, Grad. She even told me in the beginning: "poor you, you don´t know what you´re facing". So I did everything in a way that I pushed her away. I don´t feel it was wrong, though. It´s what´s natural to me. So, what I should do now, if I would want to continue? I already told her it was my limit. What works with her? Does she want to be despised while permitting her to be around, is that it?

I´ve been thinking about what you said about unconditional love. I think that maybe there´s a difference between romantic love and other kinds of love. A father loves and stands by a son unconditionally. A friend, also does it with a friend. But don´t you think that romantic love has an inherent selfishness, a healthy one? It becomes a life sharing, how can you share a life with someone who doesn´t give you back? It is supposed to go in both directions, us-them, and them-us. That´s a horizontal relationship, not a vertical one. To love a romantic partner also means to be thrilled with the exclusiveness of another human being with us, this is part of the feeling. If we "dance" along with this child projection of a vertical relationship, that the pwBPD wish for, aren´t we crossing the line between being a parent figure and being a partner? Is that healthy, is unconditionality really love, or is it a shared pathology? I don´t know, you´re making me work on that one.

You seem to understand this PD very well, is it easy for you to have positive results with a pwBPD?

Thanks

[benny2]

Yes its a no win situation. When you get to close, they push you away. If you don't get close they think you don't want them. I am going through this right now. Its hard to know what to do. I am keeping things at a distance, as he is, for my own sanity.

[grad]

That makes sense, Grad. She even told me in the beginning: "poor you, you don´t know what you´re facing". So I did everything in a way that I pushed her away. I don´t feel it was wrong, though. It´s what´s natural to me. So, what I should do now, if I would want to continue? I already told her it was my limit. What works with her? Does she want to be despised while permitting her to be around, is that it?

I´ve been thinking about what you said about unconditional love. I think that maybe there´s a difference between romantic love and other kinds of love. A father loves and stands by a son unconditionally. A friend, also does it with a friend. But don´t you think that romantic love has an inherent selfishness, a healthy one? It becomes a life sharing, how can you share a life with someone who doesn´t give you back? It is supposed to go in both directions, us-them, and them-us. That´s a horizontal relationship, not a vertical one. To love a romantic partner also means to be thrilled with the exclusiveness of another human being with us, this is part of the feeling. If we "dance" along with this child projection of a vertical relationship, that the pwBPD wish for, aren´t we crossing the line between being a parent figure and being a partner? Is that healthy, is unconditionality really love, or is it a shared pathology? I don´t know, you´re making me work on that one.

You seem to understand this PD very well, is it easy for you to have positive results with a pwBPD?

Thanks

I believe you made the right choice of enforcing the boundary of exclusivity.  I was in a similar situation where we had dated for 1.5 months and now all of the sudden she wanted "to be free and see other people" and also see me as well and at first I agreed but then a few days later I decided I deserved better than that and we should just be friends.  I even began to waffle a bit unsure of whether that was the right decision and instead of holding back and thinking it through, the more I talked to her about it the more I realized it was pushing her away and the damage had been done.  Her idealization of her new supply had taken affect and was already devalued me.  she just wanted to keep the option open in case this new supply didn't workout.  

As far as the unconditional love aspect of this, I believe this is mainly as friend aspect of the r/s.  When a commitment is made to be exclusive, it should be kept as such.  a pwBPD may try to cross this boundary and triangulate you with someone else but if the roles were reversed, they wouldn't tolerate it so why should you?  It's a means of control when they try this route.

If you want to continue a r/s with her please understand you will only be exploring new levels of pain.  While I'm 95% recovered from the emotional pain my ex inflicted, some things still get to me.  Yes, I can love her unconditionally but at the same time I realize it's a very one-sided affair where I put in all effort to maintain the r/s.  She also has financial gain from it as well, and it probably also serves to make her current supply uncomfortable and focus to serve her needs more.  


Throughout the entire 1 year I've known my ex uBPDgf with waif like qualities, I've always felt she was passive-aggressively testing me, seemingly wanting to invoke a emotional reaction out of me she rarely could succeed with.  Only once or twice has she seen me angry (breakup and another time where she was upset i didn't give her affection when she wanted it in front of some acquaintances and wouldnt stop harping on it, i had no interest in discussing it with her while she was drunk).  She's never seen a tear and never seen me sad or upset.  I posted about this on another forum and my suspicions were confirmed and the insight helped me understand her motives even further.  She unequivocally was testing me the entire time because she knew I had complete control and was emotionally absent, knowing she was everything I wanted and finally giving it to me only to rip it away and try and hurt me in which she succeeded.  She wanted what I had, emotional regulation, independence, and a successful career.  we were both alphas, very strong-minded but she also knew that within the r/s i was in control but continuing the r/s in the short-term she was in control.  long-term i knew it probably wouldn't work but my love for her and the amazing sex made it worth the effort to help her overcome her many flaws. she knew she was transparent to me, i never complained, never whined, i just took it cuz i saw through it all and the wounded, vulnerable little girl she was inside.  we both agreed we weren't ready for each other at the time for several reasons and even though she's with someone else our feelings for one another still linger.  i was terrible at validating her emotions.

In fact, when I saw her yesterday she was talking about how in the 2 mo since our split she's gotten her GED (and named a correspondence school which checks out), that her current supply makes her happy and showed me pics of them together at the zoo with her nephew and at a park which were all within the last few weeks of reconnecting since the weather wouldn't have accommodated it any earlier.  I also know that some aspects of our r/s still make her emotional and discussing some issues we had even made her shed tears or get emotional.  I've seen her breakdown and show signs she's gotten worse since our split, but in a subsequent meeting everything is fine and better than ever.  It's seems mostly like a lie, I really feel for her but I just go along with what she says because that's what she believes and what she really needs to do with her life.  It's as if she seeks to impress me with how well she's doing now, but at the same time she constantly probes about how much it hurt me to have her leave and she even brought up a particular incident on the last two times I saw her where i didn't validate her emotional dysregulation and it apparently pissed her off.

here's the response from a pwBPD about said suspicion on another board and it should sum up what you're dealing with and where you should proceed from here.  my advice is you do truly love her and want to continue to have her in your life, be unconditional and expect to be tested.  if you can't handle it, RUN.  unfortunately for me i do truly love her and since i have NPD i want to keep them around and have them realize down the road that i truly was the best guy they ever were with.  even my ex while we were dating said i was so different than anything she knew and that i deserved better.  in essence it was too much for her to handle and since she couldn't get a grip on me emotionally she had to find new supply.  her emotional dysregulation as an attempt to control me wasn't working for her and she couldn't truly love me the way she needed to.

-----pwBPD response-----

maybe she was pissed off that you weren't crying over her leaving? that that's what she wanted you to do? whereas the fact that you maintained your composure spooked her out? I would guess that's why she's probing you because she wants a reaction! whether it's good or bad, she wants a reaction! When my mood was really all over the place, I would feel perturbed by calm people because I couldn't relate to them... . I'd notice that they were calm but it would feel so alien to me... . I'd want them around because I wanted their positive energy but at the same time I hated them because they had what I didn't... . they had peace of mind and I wanted that so badly and I just wanted to know what their secret was yet I felt too proud to actually ask. But yeah, I would guess that your sense of calm alone is triggering off an emotional reaction in this girl because you have something that she doesn't... . emotional regulation.

I really think you need to work out whether you're prepared to put up with this passive aggressive behaviour or not. If you want to stay in contact with her, then you'll have to set firm boundaries but she probably won't respect your boundaries anyways so that could be difficult to actually implement! I'm a bit baffled that you're still in contact with her tbh... . what exactly are you getting out of the situation aside from a load of hassle from the sounds of it?

[grad]

If we "dance" along with this child projection of a vertical relationship, that the pwBPD wish for, aren´t we crossing the line between being a parent figure and being a partner? Is that healthy, is unconditionality really love, or is it a shared pathology? I don´t know, you´re making me work on that one.

a pwBPD typically has issues dating to childhood, perceived or actual abandonment from their mother not validating their emotions, and a lack of respect for their father-figure who probably physically and sexually abused them (as was the case with my ex).  so they create this independence in their mind to not be like their mother and want the control in the r/s.  yes it is a very delicate balancing act and even for the pwBPD they confuse these roles and sometimes will tell their partners they are their parental unit!  my ex even called me daddy during sex once which felt really weird.  and after speaking to her a few days ago about the amazing sex, she indicated "it was good, wasn't it" which leads me to believe everything she said was true, she found pleasure in the sex with me in a way she wasn't able to previously since i could make her lose control during sex and previous partners couldn't.  perhaps it was the guilt of the pleasure from being molested (but also knowing it was wrong) and she wanted to pass that on to me in some sick way.

[grad]

However, after having said all that, I think it's best for you to just accept that she wasn't really that interested in you once the challenge was lost.  From everything you've written about what she's said, that's my take and to continue the r/s would be very toxic for you as she has complete control of the situation and she doesn't fully respect or care about what happens with you.  It really seems as if she just cant' handle being alone and currently doesn't have control of anyone else.  There is no point in giving your love in any shape or form when they lack zero feeling for you.  

One other suspicion, I don't think you've been good at validating her emotions and empathizing so perhaps that's another issue you've yet to realize.  When she called crying, she didn't want you talking things through, seems like she wanted empathy.

[whatathing]

Hello Grad,

I see your knowledge comes from a long painful path... .   But you really hit many points there. I think she´s passive aggressive, and that she devalued me after gaining control, etc. Thank you for all your insights, it´s very helpful.

I feel like those hunting dogs, the pointers, who are taught to do the opposite of what their instinct tells them to do: not running after the prey, just stop. I really have to think about this, I don´t know if I´m able to go against my spontaneous reactions of complaining, pulling, etc. But I also really love her.

I hope you´re ok there.

Thanks.

[grad]

Hello Grad,

I see your knowledge comes from a long painful path... .   But you really hit many points there. I think she´s passive aggressive, and that she devalued me after gaining control, etc. Thank you for all your insights, it´s very helpful.

I feel like those hunting dogs, the pointers, who are taught to do the opposite of what their instinct tells them to do: not running after the prey, just stop. I really have to think about this, I don´t know if I´m able to go against my spontaneous reactions of complaining, pulling, etc. But I also really love her.

I hope you´re ok there.

Thanks.

ok for the most part, but a little sad because this guy has made more progress in their 2 mo together than i did with her facade.  i'll be fine because i'm strong-minded and have strong sense of self, and the ability to see straight through most of her.  i still care and will continue to keep seeing her once every month or so but also haven't lost the foresight to pursue other interests.  the difference between my situation and yours is i know my ex has deep-seeded strong feelings for me and her insecurities get in the way but yours seemed to have a  superficial attraction to you.  these women like to breakdown men in a sadistic fashion which is why so many here have therapists.

[whatathing]

I don´t know, maybe you´re right about that, but I´ve also been the guy she connected the most and longer.

Hang in there thanks