Views on 'forgiveness'...

[mrclear]

Where do you stand on "forgiving" your exBPD for what they have put you through?

Researchers are very clear about what forgiveness is not:

Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. Forgiveness is one person’s inner response to another’s perceived injustice. Reconciliation is two people coming together in mutual respect. Reconciliation requires both parties working together. Forgiveness is something that is entirely up to you. Although reconciliation may follow forgiveness, it is possible to forgive without re-establishing or continuing the relationship. The person you forgive may be deceased or no longer part of your life. You may also choose not to reconcile, perhaps because you have no reason to believe that a relationship with the other person is healthy for you.

Forgiveness is not forgetting. “Forgive and forget” seem to go together. However, the process of forgiving involves acknowledging to yourself the wrong that was done to you, reflecting on it, and deciding how you want to think about it. Focusing on forgetting a wrong might lead to denying or suppressing feelings about it, which is not the same as forgiveness. Forgiveness has taken place when you can remember the wrong that was done without feeling resentment or a desire to pursue revenge. Sometimes, after we get to this point, we may forget about some of the wrongs people have done to us. But we don’t have to forget in order to forgive.

Forgiveness is not condoning or excusing. Forgiveness does not minimize, justify, or excuse the wrong that was done. Forgiveness also does not mean denying the harm and the feelings that the injustice produced. And forgiveness does not mean putting yourself in a position to be harmed again. You can forgive someone and still take healthy steps to protect yourself, including choosing not to reconcile.

Forgiveness is not justice. It is certainly easier to forgive someone who sincerely apologizes and makes amends. However, justice—which may include acknowledgment of the wrong, apologies, punishment, restitution, or compensation—is separate from forgiveness. You may pursue your rights for justice with or without forgiving someone. And if justice is denied, you can still choose whether or not to forgive.

For me personally I am at a crossroads between forgiving, but not forgetting. I cannot forget what she has done and don't see any reason to.

BPD is a disorder, so I feel that the Borderline in their undeveloped emotional state, cannot judge or comprehend what they are doing to others. However, they are adults and are accountable for their decisions and actions. Some people say you don't have to forgive, or that forgiving is patronizing.

I do not have any personal contact with my exBPD, unless it's about our shared children. It helps that she finds herself in the idealization-stage with her new bf. I do not want personal contact with her. I am healing and on the way to recovery. I am fixing myself which is the best thing I can do.

Any views on your perception of "forgiveness"?

mrclear

[LoveNotWar]

I have deep compassion for the mental health issues my ex has to live with daily. I also know he refuses to acknowledge that he has those issues and that he needs help BECAUSE  he is mentally ill. It's a never ending circle of dysfunction.

But compassion isn't the same as forgiveness, I'm not sure I've totally forgiven him... .  yet... .  but I'm getting closer. I know I'm not there because I still feel angry when I think about  all I gave up for a life with him.

And sometimes I'm angry at my self for being taken in by his promises, being manipulated by him and staying way too long.

So I work to forgive him AND myself. I know, until I forgive myself, I can't forgive him.

[Scott72]

I've forgiven my ex. I believe I should. But I'll never forget for fear I allow someone else to behave that way and steal my heart too. I think holding onto something is not healthy

[VeryFree]

I don’t know the answer. I’m struggling with forgiving vs. justice.

The perfect timing of this discussion in my situation.

I’m ready to forgive my stbx for her behavior. I’m ready to forgive my stbx for her false accusations. I’m ready to forgive my stbx for her trying to destroy me and my life.

But…I’m not ready to lay down and let her do it. I feel justice needs to be done, but the only way I see that happening is when I stand up to her. Building a strong case against her to protect my future means I will have to fight a very hard legal battle. There’s a risk this might harm her. I really don’t want that, because I don’t want revenge, I want us both to live our lives, but she can’t compromise and wants to bring me down.

How can forgiving and seeking justice come together?

[Vindi]

i hear alot on forgiveness... .  and i always think why should i forgive anyone for something so bad that they did. But from a logical point, forgiveness breaks that tie, breaks that consuming hold that that person has on you... .  if that makes sense... .  once you forgive someone you can move forward... .  and yes, you will never forgot what wrongs they did, but forgiveness, breaks that hold that that person had on you and consumed all your thoughts and time with.

[WalrusGumboot]

"Forgiveness" is a very gray area to me. Is it an action of the head, or an action of the heart, or can it be both? Can you truly forgive somebody that never apologizes?

My ex felt she was never in the wrong, and expressed that me divorcing her was because I was done using her and was throwing her in the trash. In other words, she never accepted blame for even the tiniest piece of our failed marriage. Even so, I have accepted her mental illness as the root of this and do not hold the illness against her. So in essence, I have forgiven her, at least from my head.

But (and there is always a "but"   ), as I deal with my own issues that resulted from the abuse, I still can be bitter. This tells me my heart has not healed, and who knows if and when it will.

I am looking forward to other responses.

[mrclear]

Some good points... .

Veryscared: I love the "forgiving" vs "Justice" point. This is something I've struggled with. However, since the Borderline has no concept of justice, empathy, closure or compassion, it is doubtful we will ever get it from them. I look for justice within myself. I am happier, secure, safe, there is no distrust, disrespect or emotional abuse going on in my life anymore. That's justice enough for me. Taking care of, or standing up for yourself in the battle ahead is not harming her or about revenge. It's protecting you. You've done all you can for her, but through her disorder, she was not able to integrate it. Is that your fault? No.

Forgiving ourselves first is also a good point. For letting this happen and allowing it. That's the tough one... .  

[wanttoknowmore]

The issue of forgiveness arises when we think that pwBPD did something wrong to us. My concept is it's not the pwBPD who did us wrong ... . it's her illness which caused us all the hurt.

The person is not guilty of hurting us... . her illness is responsible for  hurting us.

How can I think of forgiving her when I do not even believe that it was she who hurt me?

She behaved in this way as she was not able to subdue her disorder and the disorder controlled her.

[theboro504]

Not that I am there yet except in brief moments, but I relate it to the same as if someone owes me money. I choose to forgive them that debt and resolve they don't owe me anything. However, I choose to never loan them money again and be more cautious who I loan it to next time. I am still out the money, but I am no longer waiting for it or even expecting it any longer.

[WalrusGumboot]

The person is not guilty of hurting us... . her illness is responsible for  hurting us.

How can I think of forgiving her when I do not even believe that it was she who hurt me?

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. There has to be accountability. We liken them to 4 year olds, but parents even discipline a 4 year old when they have a temper tantrum, act violently, or lie. If a pwBPD never take responsible for their actions, why would they ever seek treatment?

[atwitsend]

I've always subscribed to my T's perspective on forgiveness. "Why even think of it, if she's not looking for it?"

AWS

[morningagain]

Mercy (as described by my Catholic faith) is the forgiveness of even outrageous wrongs done to you.  Mercy is a supernatural forgiveness that transcends natural forgiveness - I find it easy to forgive those who are sorry and sincere about trying to make amends and/or not repeat the transgression, so that would be natural forgiveness.  (Being sorry and making commitment and effort to make amends and not repeat is repentance - to change).

In natural forgiveness, the other person makes it easy on us to forgive - if we don't forgive even then, that is so clearly on our heads.

And of course, not to forget in either case.  'Forgetting' is perfectly fine if you really mean letting go, or "not holding a grudge"  (this would be what this leaving board title indicates - detaching from the wounds.  You might be 'forgetting' something, but you sure do not to rinse and repeat the damage, so you do not forget, at least, the dumb choices we made (ok, it would be dumb to repeat the choices - maybe we lacked the knowledge, or the practice, in my case, i think i was willing to compromise my values in order to 'get' or at least keep what i felt was so wonderful)

Holding a grudge is a form of willfully poisoning yourself.  :)etaching is the first step to healing; it does not seem logical to be able to heal if you do not let go of your internal stuff which is continuing to wound you.

So, yeah - forgiving is a hope and a help for the person doing the forgiving.  Don't forget to forgive yourself.

[nolisan]

I now see the my rs with my exBPD really wasn``t any different than living with an active alcoholic. She knew she was sick and early on told me she had Complex PTSD. My research afterwards (wish I had of before!) tells me that the symptoms and behaviors are virtually identical to BPD. But she insisted that she did not have and illness, rather she had an injury. She saw herself as a victim and not responsible - everything was someone elses fault (especially me).

She talked about healing and recovery but balked at doing any serious work with a T. (she was afraid of being hospitalized). She went to 12 step meetings instead but didnt do any real step work or have a sponsor (with 23 years of recovery). She had never sponsored anyone - very odd and telling for a person with this amount of time in the program (totally self centered).

So for me it is like forgiving an alcoholic. Yes both are diseases but both have solutions. An adult needs to take responsibility for coming out of denial and seeking a solution.

And something that vexes me is the question `did she get pleasure out of being mean to me and exploiting my nativity and vulnerability`` Was she sadistic. (Am I a masochist.) I am sure she was manipulative in getting money out of me some of the time - other times I was in rescue and controlling behavior.

I do feel she took pleasure in inflicting pain. This probably came from her hurt (sexually abused) inner child that needed to project her pain on someone else to feel better - to somehow get control back.

So do I forgive - can I. I do forgive her hurt inner child - but I do not forgive her acting out adult. She had the self awareness that she knew she was sick but chose to do little about it just blamed others. I feel she liked and enjoyed her behavior and once bragged the `she loved her demons``. Only once did she admit any shame - that she had been a bad mother (I can only imagine what she put her kids through).

I do however have compassion for her and other people that suffer with serious mental heath issues. Personally I will steer clear of close relations with these people in the future.

[Clearmind]

Where do you stand on "forgiving" your exBPD for what they have put you through?

First I had to forgive myself – I blamed myself entirely.

Now I see my relationship as a 50/50 contribution – this lead me to forgive my ex. I know how he feels, because I too have felt that level of disappear.

[Newton]

The topic of "forgiveness" is a regular one on the leaving board... .  

I think it's a word that is emotionally loaded and almost implies someone else being exonerated from shocking behaviour... .  

I prefer to concentrate on "acceptance"... .  that someone else is consistently behaving in a way that is destructive to my life and my emotional well being.  Then "forgiving" becomes a moot point.

[BorderlineMagnet]

I think it's kind of dangerous to forgive them completely. You may feel all zen, buddhist, at one with the universe... .  whatever. Yes it is the disorder, but there is a person that still made a choice. I can agree she didn't MEAN to hurt me. But I can't deny that she DID hurt me. Her disorder was not a ghostly specter that possessed her and made her lie to me. SHE lied to me to hide what she did because of her disorder. I have basically forgiven my last ex for what she did to me, because I do believe there is shame there. But I have held on to a bit of anger and resentment because I will not get fooled again. I will not get sucked in if she ever decides to contact me again. Funny, I heard from the BPD ex that was before the most current BPD ex today, and the one thing that stood out like a sore thumb to me is they both wanted to know if I was seeing someone- be it in their most current interactions with me or my friends. The ex today basically stammered it out because she was saying it so fast, and when a female friend confronted the most current ex the only thing on her mind is if me and her were dating. They don't care about me, they only care if the door to me is open. And though I can forgive what their disorder has done to me, knowing that one fact about both of them makes me a bit mad that they just view me as some kind of tool they will use once they find there is no one else to turn to. EFF that! If I was a bit more sentimental like I had been recently, then I could see myself giving in. To either of them really. But holding on to some anger helped me stand strong against one today, and it will if the other one rears her head too. Forgive the disorder for hurting you, but don't forgive the person entirely for wronging you. You will just end up doing the dance with them again. Just like the alcoholic who thinks after 5 years sobriety they can just hang out at the bar and have a good time without drinking... .  yet they wake up with a bottle in their hand in the morning.

[wanttoknowmore]

BorderlineMagnet,

Do not confuse the human being with   her disorder. These two are not the same. The person is separate from her  disorder.

The disorder makes them behave in bad manner . Remove the fog of disorder and underneath you will find a real person.

If you have sore throat, do you say I am sore throat... . NO... .  you say I have got sore throat. You and sore throat are two different things.

Same way, your loved one is separate than her disorder. She is not BPD... .

she is Ms.xyz who has got BPD.

It's nothing to do with Buddhism... . it's simple scientific logic.

You say the person made the choice... .  no... . they can not make the choice due to this disorder esp if they are not aware that they have the disorder.

Some say it's all about pwBPDs needs... . I ask what needs she was fulfilling in you that you stayed with her and still sometimes, wants her to come back.

The r/s was fulfilling both partners needs otherwise why we are grieving... .  what  are we grieving? Do we grieve the loss of a painful abscess or boil? Don't we grieve loss of something good and valuable.

[Bananas]

"Forgiveness" is a very gray area to me. Is it an action of the head, or an action of the heart, or can it be both? Can you truly forgive somebody that never apologizes?

My ex felt she was never in the wrong, and expressed that me divorcing her was because I was done using her and was throwing her in the trash. In other words, she never accepted blame for even the tiniest piece of our failed marriage. Even so, I have accepted her mental illness as the root of this and do not hold the illness against her. So in essence, I have forgiven her, at least from my head.

But (and there is always a "but"   ), as I deal with my own issues that resulted from the abuse, I still can be bitter. This tells me my heart has not healed, and who knows if and when it will.

I am looking forward to other responses.

This is where I am at. After the breakup I tried to talk to my ex about forgiveness and I was no doubt hoping for some sort of apology. He said to me "there is nothing for anyone to forgive". And then offered a non apology of "I'm sorry but I didn't do anything wrong."

For me it it is not so much the actions (lying & cheating) but what one does after that helps me to forgive. So as horrible as the actions are, to be so dismissive of them is what makes it so difficult.  So I can get my head around it because of the disorder but not my heart. At least not yet.

[BorderlineMagnet]

wanttoknowmore,

The good and valuable was an ILLUSION. My last ex mirrored me so much that I basically fell in love with myself. I don't need to miss myself, I'm still right here. I really don't care if her disorder CAUSED her to mirror me, she still did it. And now I'm stuck thinking who she really was/is. To me she's just a chameleon that changes colors, and yes, just like a chameleon they do it to survive. But I'm thinking my ex took the good things that I am, so she can survive with someone else. And that's not cool to me. I really hope she ends up mirroring the white trash piece of ___ she's seeing now so her life really takes a dive. I hope she records over the good she took from me and is left with nothing but an echo of a loser. Then, if she comes knocking back on my door, while I won't be cruel, I can stand against her and smile in knowing the pain she caused me was returned back to her without me doing a thing. It probably never left her in the first place. And I can feel pity towards that. But I guess it's harder to just say "ohhhhmmmm" and peacefully walk away into nirvana with a smile on my face after forgiving the person underneath the disorder. When you have 2 of them in a row it leaves you a bit angry after all the hurt starts to clear up, and you can replay what happened with better hindsight. When you have 2 people steal so much of your life, only because you were kind and trusting, then at some point the "Kumbayah" becomes leave me the EFF alone.

[eniale]

Three months post b/u, I think I am making progress.  For me, one cannot forgive until one can understand the condition.  I think my ex knew what he did was wrong, but his own needs superseded right vs. wrong.  Let me put it another way:  someone is starving and knows stealing is wrong.  They see a loaf of bread.  Now, what do you think they will do?  Although my ex's behavior caused me the greatest pain of my life, now I understand him better.  I don't consider him a bad person, rather a terribly damaged person.  You cannot judge such people as you would judge yourself.  This is key.  You have to understand:  THEY DO NOT THINK THE WAY YOU DO.  This does not mean condoning the wrong they did to you.  You must acknowledge your own pain.  But do not judge them by your standards.  And this does NOT mean forgiving to the extent of ever trusting them again, or resuming a relationship with them again.  You MUST protect yourself.  You do not want further hurt.  But understand they are terribly damaged human beings, driven by forces you, as a stable person, can't understand.  I am starting the forgiveness process; when I look back on what he did to me, the devastating hurt will always be there, but forgiveness is helping me to understand and let go.  I am sadder, but MUCH wiser.  I am close to THANKING him for letting me see who he really is.  What I saw before was only MY perception of him, not the real person.

[ComoLu]

I know that I am capable of forgiveness.  I currently live with and trust people who have committed terrible wrongs against me.  They changed and proved to me that they were worthy of my trust, and together we rebuilt the relationships.  There is no forgetting, but there is moving beyond.  Until my uxBPDH does the same, I cannot forgive him because he is still doing those things which cause me pain and aggravation.  His apologies are insincere and his promises worthless.  If he changes and wants to try to rebuild a relationship with me, I am confident that I can do that.  If he chooses not to, I will not hold a grudge.  I will move on with my life without him.  He will be an always painful memory.

[Juliecelle]

For me, forgiveness can come more readily when we are apart. I can have more clarity and compassion when I am not a daily target. I'm not strong enough to be understanding and forgiving while in the midst of this turmoil.

Forgiveness will come. I have been taught too much about forgiveness and I know, I know better. Recently I read this quote in a book called "The Peacegiver":

"Being mistreated is the most important condition of mortality, for eternity itself depends on how we view those who mistreat us."

Yes, I must forgive. I'm working on it. What I know and what I do, do not always align. That's where the work comes in.