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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.
Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
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Topic: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice (Read 549 times)
lookingahead
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Posts: 21
Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
on:
July 05, 2013, 11:38:53 AM »
Where is the line between mental illness and simply not taking responsibility for one's actions?
For a variety of reasons, my H can't bring himself to keep down a job. He getting more education and is holding out for something that he feels meets all his needs (financially, being respected, using his brain, etc.). When he has tried a more "regular" job just to pay the bills, it lasts for a few weeks and then he quits. He gets contract or freelance jobs that keep a little money coming in, but barely at a part time salary level. The quitting is never because of performance issues -- it's because he can't take the monotony or feels like he was disrespected, etc. etc. It seems as though working a survival job causes him a level of pain that it doesn't cause others so he has to leave the jobs because they make him feel suicidal. In the meantime, I hold down the steady job with benefits plus work other P/T jobs to support us. We're also living apart so the money is stretching to support two living situations.
Anyway, I'm getting fed up. I sincerely believe he feels he's doing everything he can, but I'm worn thin dealing with money issues (and all the other things that have to do with BPD). I don't feel supported financially, emotionally, or physically. But of course, I can't tell him how I'm feeling about any of this without setting off major anxiety in him, and those conversations go nowhere.
So my question is, where's the line? How much is due to illness and how much is his own personal choice not to support US as a partnership? And what can I do about it? Am I enabling or supporting? If I were to set boundaries that cause him anxiety and force him to do things and it turns out he really can't do them, I would feel horrible. But I just don't know what to do. Any advice would be much appreciated!
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overwhelmedandconfused
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 35
Re: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
Reply #1 on:
July 05, 2013, 11:52:36 AM »
I am in the same boat. Does it feel like you are the only one rowing so you end up going in circles because you are the only one trying to push forward. I know exactly what you are going through and asking the same questions myself. Unfortunately I am living with my BPD person, because he will not even try to find work because he feels entitled to start at the top because "I know more than everyone else so why should I listen to stupid people?" despite have one year of college and a very broken and disjointed work history. He gives me grief all the time because I have a bachelors from an Ivy League school and can not get a job good enough to buy him a "Ferrari" which he thinks I owe him. I sympathize and know what it is like to support someone out of love only to feel taken advantage of. I hope that we will both find an answer to this very pressing issue. Times are tough for people working together to make it, it makes it nearly impossible when you are working with someone who only cares about their needs.
I also understand the not feeling supported on any level, I get it, I am on the undecided board for this reason primarily. If I am not supported in any way in a relationship, why even be in one, yet I love him and want it to work.
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seeking balance
Retired Staff
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What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Relationship status: divorced
Posts: 7146
Re: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
Reply #2 on:
July 05, 2013, 11:55:33 AM »
Quote from: lookingahead on July 05, 2013, 11:38:53 AM
Where is the line between mental illness and simply not taking responsibility for one's actions?
I understand this question, I really did think that impulses and irresponsible behavior should be able to be controlled. And it can with a lot of hard work, but BPD is truly a mental illness that is in the DSM and it is responsible for very maladaptive coping methods to emotional stresses. There has been scientific data that shows the brain function in the area where emotions fire is actually much higher than nons.
That said, there is successful treatment that brings a mindfulness approach to life and learning how to "sit" in emotions to experience them without reacting. Unfortunately, like most mental illness or treatment - people tend to hit a bottom of losing quite a bit before actually doing the work to change.
Quote from: lookingahead on July 05, 2013, 11:38:53 AM
For a variety of reasons, my H can't bring himself to keep down a job. He getting more education and is holding out for something that he feels meets all his needs (financially, being respected, using his brain, etc.). When he has tried a more "regular" job just to pay the bills, it lasts for a few weeks and then he quits. He gets contract or freelance jobs that keep a little money coming in, but barely at a part time salary level. The quitting is never because of performance issues -- it's because he can't take the monotony or
feels like
he was disrespected, etc. etc. It seems as though working a survival job causes him a level of pain that it doesn't cause others so he has to leave the jobs because they make him feel suicidal. In the meantime, I hold down the steady job with benefits plus work other P/T jobs to support us. We're also living apart so the money is stretching to support two living situations.
The key is bolded - he feels versus reality of the situation. This is very common with pwBPD.
Quote from: lookingahead on July 05, 2013, 11:38:53 AM
Anyway, I'm getting fed up. I sincerely believe he feels he's doing everything he can, but I'm worn thin dealing with money issues (and all the other things that have to do with BPD). I don't feel supported financially, emotionally, or physically. But of course, I can't tell him how I'm feeling about any of this without setting off major anxiety in him, and those conversations go nowhere.
Well, you cannot vent to him and get the sympathy you need, but you do need support. Glad you are here.
Do you also have a therapist that can help you navigate your own emotions?
Quote from: lookingahead on July 05, 2013, 11:38:53 AM
So my question is, where's the line? How much is due to illness and how much is his own personal choice not to support US as a partnership? And what can I do about it? Am I enabling or supporting? If I were to set boundaries that cause him anxiety and force him to do things and it turns out he really can't do them, I would feel horrible. But I just don't know what to do. Any advice would be much appreciated!
Boundaries - plain and simple.
Only you know what you are willing to do, put up with etc.
Have you had a chance to check out the communication tools on the staying board? Ultimately, if you want him to work on a behavior, you will need to learn how to communicate effectively when he is not triggered or without triggering him. It is not easy, but it is possible.
Boundaries are for you - not for him. It is what you need from him and why.
The DEARMAN approach is a proven way to set boundaries - it doesn't always work - but having a guide to work from can be very helpful for both him and you.
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Faith does not grow in the house of certainty - The Shack
lookingahead
Offline
Posts: 21
Re: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
Reply #3 on:
July 05, 2013, 12:03:56 PM »
Quote from: overwhelmedandconfused on July 05, 2013, 11:52:36 AM
Does it feel like you are the only one rowing so you end up going in circles because you are the only one trying to push forward.
YES! That's exactly it! Just around and around... . repeating the same cycles with hardly any forward motion over so many years... . my wants vs. his needs, all the time.
I know the responsibility to change the situation lies with me and gaining the ability to set boundaries and stay strong in them without the FOG overwhelming me. I have a T but for some reason it's so hard to move past whatever is blocking me from being strong. I will definitely look at the communication tools on the staying board. It's been a while since I've read them.
It's great to be able to get support here when you can't turn to your partner and no one in my life who isn't dealing with these issues can understand why I would even bother.
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seeking balance
Retired Staff
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What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Relationship status: divorced
Posts: 7146
Re: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
Reply #4 on:
July 05, 2013, 12:07:37 PM »
You can practice here - get feedback from staying members who use this. I have seen many people effectively use these tools in their relationships.
A way to remember these skills is to remember:
DEAR MAN
DESCRIBE
Describe the situation when necessary - sometimes it isn't stick to the facts and no judgmental statements
"I've been working here for 2 years now and haven't received a raise, even though my performance reviews have always been positive"
"This is the third time this week that you've asked me for a ride home."
EXPRESS
Express feelings/opinions about the situation clearly.
describe how you feel or what you believe about the situation.
don't expect the other person to read your mind or know how you feel give a brief reason for making your request.
"I believe that I deserve a raise."
"I'm getting home so late that it is really hard for me and my family. But I also really enjoy giving you rides home, and it is hard for me to say no."
ASSERT
Assert your wishes.
Ask for what you want.
Say no clearly.
Don't expect the other person to know what you want them to do if you don't tell them (don't expect them to mind read).
Don't tell others what they "should" do.
Don't beat around the bush... . Just bite the bullet and ask, or say no
"I would like a raise. Can you give it to me?
"But I have to say no tonight. I can't give you a ride home so often."
REINFORCE
Reward people who respond positively to you when you ask for something, say no or express an opinion.
Sometimes it helps to reinforce people before they respond to your question by telling them the positive effects of getting what you want or need.
The basic idea here is that if people do not gain form complying with a request, at least some of the time, they may stop responding in a positive way
"I will be a lot happier and probably more productive if I get a salary that reflects my value to the company."
"Thanks for being so understanding. I really appreciate it."
STAY MINDFUL
Keep your focus on your objectives in the situation
Maintain your position
Don't be distracted on to another topic
Two helpful techniques for staying mindful:
1. Broken Record
Keep asking, saying no or expressing your opinion... . over and over and over
You just don't have to think up something new each time, just keep saying the exact same thing. Keep a mellow tone of voice... . your strength comes from maintaining your position
2. Ignore
If the other person attacks, threatens or tries to change the subject, ... . IGNORE, the
threats comments or efforts to divert you. Just keep making your point. If you respond to these attacks, you have allowed the other person to take control of the situation
If you want to deal with the attacks... . deal with them in another discussion.
APPEAR CONFIDENT
Confident tone of voice
Confident physical manner
Appropriate eye contact
No stammering, whispering, staring at the floor, etc... .
How confident to act in a situation is a judgment call. There is a fine line between appearing arrogant, and appearing too apologetic.
NEGOTIATE
Be willing to give to get
Offer and ask for alternate solutions
Reduce your request
Maintain your no, but offer to do something else or solve the problem another way
A helpful skill here is "turning the tables." Turn the problem over to the other person, ask for alternative solutions.
"What do you think we can do." "I am not able to say yes, but you really seem to want me to. What can we do here?"
"How can we solve this problem?"
Using DEAR MAN skills in really difficult situations
Some people have really good skills themselves, and keep refusing your legitimate requests, or pestering you to do something you don't want to do.
*Use the same ":)EAR MAN" skills, but change the focus to the current interaction.
1. Describe the current interaction
"You keep asking me over and over again even though I have already said no."
Avoid blaming the other person... . i.e. don't say "you just don't want to hear me"
2. Express your opinions/feelings of discomfort about the interaction
I'm not sure that you understand what I am asking"
I'm starting to feel angry about this."
3. Assert your wishes
when the other person is refusing a request, suggest that you put off the conversation to another time
Give the person another chance to think about it
When the other person is pestering you, ask them to stop
4. Reinforce
when saying no to someone who keeps asking... . suggest that you end the conversation because you aren't going to change your mind anyway
Relationships Effectiveness Skills... . using skills to maintain or improve a relationship, while you are trying to get what you want.
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Faith does not grow in the house of certainty - The Shack
thinkingthinking
Offline
Gender:
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 103
Re: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
Reply #5 on:
July 05, 2013, 01:08:44 PM »
Before deciding to separate from my then-undiagnosed BPD husband, our counseling sessions would often center around me saying "I just need you to 'drive the bus' once in awhile. I can't always be the one holding all of the responsibility." But as with your experience, despite the fact that I also worked full time and did most of the organizing for our three kids, his "feelings" about his job and other things always trumped what was good for the whole family. So we ended up in a ton of debt as he ended one job and tried to start a restaurant (which failed) and constantly bought things to make him temporarily happy.
He has gone to classes on mindfulness, done STEPPS therapy, and alcohol treatment, but unfortunately has consistently reverted to the old behavior. At some point I really just couldn't deal with it any longer, and could see the effect it was having on my children.
While I THINK that he should be able to control this behavior, he does not FEEL like he can. The hard part is that I have always been a very empathetic person and went along with a lot for a very long time. Always thinking that THIS would be the thing/job/situation that might make him content. Although our separation and pending divorce are no picnic, I can see that his poor decisions are continuing with or without me. Now I can see a time where I won't be pulled under financially along with him.
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bruceli
Offline
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 636
Re: Advice please: the line between illness and personal choice
«
Reply #6 on:
July 05, 2013, 02:58:40 PM »
Quote from: lookingahead on July 05, 2013, 11:38:53 AM
Where is the line between mental illness and simply not taking responsibility for one's actions?
For a variety of reasons, my H can't bring himself to keep down a job. He getting more education and is holding out for something that he feels meets all his needs (financially, being respected, using his brain, etc.). When he has tried a more "regular" job just to pay the bills, it lasts for a few weeks and then he quits. He gets contract or freelance jobs that keep a little money coming in, but barely at a part time salary level. The quitting is never because of performance issues -- it's because he can't take the monotony or feels like he was disrespected, etc. etc. It seems as though working a survival job causes him a level of pain that it doesn't cause others so he has to leave the jobs because they make him feel suicidal. In the meantime, I hold down the steady job with benefits plus work other P/T jobs to support us. We're also living apart so the money is stretching to support two living situations.
Anyway, I'm getting fed up.
I sincerely believe he feels he's doing everything he can, but I'm worn thin dealing with money issues
(and all the other things that have to do with BPD). I don't feel supported financially, emotionally, or physically. But of course, I can't tell him how I'm feeling about any of this without setting off major anxiety in him, and those conversations go nowhere.
So my question is, where's the line? How much is due to illness and how much is his own personal choice not to support US as a partnership? And what can I do about it? Am I enabling or supporting? If I were to set boundaries that cause him anxiety and force him to do things and it turns out he really can't do them, I would feel horrible. But I just don't know what to do. Any advice would be much appreciated!
This is a tough one... . In the above quote what makes you say this? Is he actively seeking employment? Sending out resumes, filling out applications and going on interviews? What would you do if the tables were turned? Have you thought of it that way and if so, have you discussed these solutions with your SO. Money matters are hard ones to deal with because it seems people have different perspectives from each other much of the time.
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