How bad is too bad?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi, how are you? My wife has left but I do want her back. I have started writing things down that have happened in the last 5+ years and it has really frightened me.

Right now she blames me for Everything and her new bf doesn't help much because I am sure he has no idea he is being lied to. He is being completely supportive just as any new bf would be... . just as I was even till now knowing that she isn't telling the truth.

What I am asking is that even with help, is there a limit to how "bad" the disorder is for anything to ever work out?

Right now its lying every day, manipulation on a grand scale, deep rooted lying, lying to courts and other authority figures, complete disregard for her role in our relationship and blaming me for anything she ever did wrong, consistently blaming me for her not doing things, cheating, no idea or regard for the consequences of her actions, complete selfishness, etc, but yet all the time knowing that what she is doing is wrong... . to a point.

I have changed a lot myself and I feel that maybe me changing into a better man would help some of those things but I really don't know.

[MarkMo]

Hi, how are you? My wife has left but I do want her back. I have started writing things down that have happened in the last 5+ years and it has really frightened me.

Right now she blames me for Everything and her new bf doesn't help much because I am sure he has no idea he is being lied to. He is being completely supportive just as any new bf would be... . just as I was even till now knowing that she isn't telling the truth.

What I am asking is that even with help, is there a limit to how "bad" the disorder is for anything to ever work out?

Right now its lying every day, manipulation on a grand scale, deep rooted lying, lying to courts and other authority figures, complete disregard for her role in our relationship and blaming me for anything she ever did wrong, consistently blaming me for her not doing things, cheating, no idea or regard for the consequences of her actions, complete selfishness, etc, but yet all the time knowing that what she is doing is wrong... . to a point.

I have changed a lot myself and I feel that maybe me changing into a better man would help some of those things but I really don't know.

[Validation78]

Hi Mark!

Sounds like this is a tough time for you, and has been for some time.

Kudos to you for acknowledging the need to change some things in yourself, and owning up to your part of the dysfunctional dance. It's growth, and a step in a healthy direction!

That being said, you say you want her back, all the while taking note of all of the behaviors she exhibits, that are clearly not alright with you. Instead of asking what you can do to be a better man, you may consider asking yourself why you are willing to accept her behaviors.

What do you think?

Best Wishes,

Val78

[SweetCharlotte]

Hi Mark,

I am in the deciding phase too, taking inventory of what the heck happened. I've cut off all contact with my long-distance uBPDh as part of the "Take a step back" phase.

As far as I know, my husband has not cheated on me, though he has shown other kinds of hurtful disloyalty.

Infidelity is a non-negotiable for me at this point. I did permit a man to cheat repeatedly and come back when I was in my twenties, and I regret the wasted time. If my current husband had been unfaithful, the inventory would be easy because it would be an open and shut case against him.

Furthermore, your SO is currently involved with a new beau and shows no signs of ceasing. This is too disrespectful and harmful to you as a person. I would urge you to move on and to begin by restricting any communication to the essentials.

[empower-me]

Hi Mark,

Well... . Only you can really answer that question my dear.  You know her better than anyone else and know what your feeling inside/ what you've brought to the r/s and what you feel you can do to help things in the future, given the chance.

The question is will she be regulated enough in the near future to even consider that and if so what would you have to do in order to endure the r/s in this phase.

You clearly love her and want to work things out, that's obvious and you are very strong in stating this.

We all must remember that even though we may leave our pwBPD, we are always trading one set of problems for another set and we have to determine individually which one will be worse or better for us in the long run.  So many factors to consider that there is no 'one size fits all' scenario or what is bad in one situation may not be the breaking point bad in another as was already stated.

You are able to forgive the bf she has now and others may not.  But they may put up with other things that you've not had to deal with in your r/s.

So its all give and take and learning what you honestly can and cannot handle.

You sound like you've been really educating yourself to be able to do your best in your own role in the r/s and put the tools into practice if given the chance but you have to remember that if she is still using or causing you and your family major grief, you still may have to allow her to hit some kind of bottom before you can even consider moving forward with her unfortunately, if that is what you want to do.

We are all in this together at different levels of understanding and experience and we are behind you 100% whatever you decide, remembering that this is a personal journey and we have to take our own road to find ourselves and find a way to heal and live our lives while loving our person with BPD.

prayers sent your way friend,

e-m

[MarkMo]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I guess to answer the first question of why am I willing to accept her behavior is simple... . I have no idea, I just do because I love her so much and we have a great family... . when we aren't fighting that is.

I know that I have changed completely and while some may say that its not real, it was difficult yet easy. The changing of myself occurred slowly over the years that we were married to an angrier and angrier person. I was Never an angry person myself. I hated that person that I had become. It was easy changing back to who I was and I do not mean to get all Churchy on people but I started going to Church and praying and I found a ton of answers that way. So, in that respect, I know that the things that triggered her before just don't exist anymore and now that she left, I have found this site so between the two things I have a much better understanding of how to deal with her and some of her emotions.

As far as the cheating goes, well I think that is a level beyond BPD or maybe just another area goes. She has always needed a daddy figure in her life. I do not know for sure but I suspect that most of her cheating had to do with sugar daddy type things. Some were desperate attempts to just find people to talk to and like her. Unfortunately, she had to lie to these people as well in order for them to feel pity for her and want to know her. One guy stopped talking to her all together once he found out the truth. Of course, she blames me for talking to him and not herself for lying and talking to him behind my back in the first place.

Her new boyfriend is 49 and she is 24. No, I do not totally forgive him because he is knowingly helping to break up my family. Even when I have contacted him, he would just ignore me no matter how I told him I felt or my children felt about what was going on. However, I can relate to where he is. Right now he is in the, 'No one can possibly make up all this stuff so she must be telling the truth' phase. To him, I am a horrible and disgusting abuser. So, he has no problem comforting and being there for her.

The problem is, that now she is starting to believe her own lies because she is being validated. So, now there may be an even bigger problem. If he was to find out the truth and kick her out, how likely is she to want to get help now that she has been so validated over the past several months?

As far as not contacting her. Well I am in that phase. Again, I know that there is nothing that I can say now that will change her mind or show her the light so to speak. The only thing I can do now is show her. However, I am worried about this backfiring because of the "healthy" relationship she has with her current bf. Who knows how long it can last with it going the way it is. I mean he may turn a blind eye to a lot because he has arm candy now and sex with a younger girl every night, even though she says that since she has been and they sleep in the same bed, that they have only slept with each other once because she is still married... .

I'm almost worried that her problem might get even worse if this relationship does ever end, because of the constant validation. Which in turn, will making our possibility of working things out get even more difficult.

[MarkMo]

I was just sitting here and thinking that there is no way I could possibly trust her again fully and no way I could even trust her for the most part without her getting help. There have just been far too many lies and too many deep rooted manipulations. I believe that her problem is too bad to continue without help.

However, this still does not make things easier or make me love her any less. At moments it does but then I just go back to loving her every time I see her. The problem is that she is Everything that I want in a woman aside from the BPD issues.

I'm sorry to change this up a little, but I'm starting to know that my initial plan of just letting her back in and starting to get help that way will not work. I know that pwBPD have to choose to seek help but how is it that they come to this realization when their problem is this bad?

Of course this may all be a mute point because of her bf and the fact that she blames me for everything.

[SweetCharlotte]

Yes; it may be a moot point, Mark.

She is not returning "repentant and contrite" as we imagine in our fantasies about an ex with BPD.

Instead, she is merely using her still-married status to create distance and pain in the new relationship.

I'm sure you recognize this for what it is. She is manipulating a new victim. If the new guy is willing to cheat with a married woman, he may deserve what he gets.

[MarkMo]

Well I continued to write things down. Things got even worse. I started to realize more and more and more lies with possible cheating involved. I almost broke down at Starbucks when I wrote what I did and realized everything.

I would like to think that he will get what he deserves but who knows when that will happen and how much pain the situation will cause in the meantime.

This is going to take so long to get over

[empower-me]

you no what mark?

give yourself a break and realize that you will go back and forth a whole lot during this process and that s just the way it is.

So we get that and are right there with you... . its ok as long as your learning about yourself in the process.

[MarkMo]

This is hard doing things with my kids alone. I have no one adult to talk to, and when I have normal issues that I would usually talk to my wife about, now there is just an empty seat.

I don't resent her for having a bf but I just don't know why I mean so little to her that she could just leave me alone for her own reasons. She doesn't even want me talking to her unless its about the kids. I know here we go with the Whys again but its hard not to ask.

Im alone now in everything I do and she has a companion and its not me. I have to get used to it and she gets to just have support nonstop. That I resent. I am sorry for ranting. I have never had to go through such rejection and loneliness and I have a ton more responsibility. I know I can handle it once I get a handle on it. Its just getting to that point. I have all the responsibility now and she has zero.

She keeps saying that me changing after she is gone isn't fair to her but I don't think she gets that. Sorry again for ranting. I just had to vent and get it out. It stinks

[Inside]

MarkMo, it’s hard… a former wife left me five years ago to ‘finish off’ my daughters alone.  It was lonely and scary.  But ‘we’ did it, them and me!  They’re now 18 & 20, straight A’s and in college for free because of it.  The strength you exhibit to your children now they will remember forever - so consider this a teaching moment!  I’d suggest being straight with them too, depending on their ages and ability to comprehend.  And, you’re never alone.  People who would, do, and will care are everywhere.  My children and I became even closer, and as my concentration was on them, it took nearly three years for me to connect with another woman…

…too bad she has BPD…  So much of what you described seems to have played out between her and I; right down to the ‘older guy’ or Sugar Daddy - replacing the deceased biological one who spoiled her.  What I’ve become is a safe harbor, so after around 6 recycles, she comes back to me to pick up the pieces.  Upside, we’re not married …though she was once pushing hard for that …signing her name with my last to numerous items.  

Be them as they may … there is ‘healthy’ out there – it just seems to take longer…  But, it’s real, and hopefully (cuz I’ve only had brushes with it so far) worth the wait.  No one’s going to ‘sweep us off our feet’ like our BP’s did.  But, as I’ve come to realize, though it felt good, I paid a heavy price!  And in the end/s, it wasn’t real, and it just kept taking more and more (and more) effort to keep alive less and less of the original passion and love.

To me, if we were strong enough to put up with them – we’re strong enough to live without them.  My suggestion is to use that strength to move on.  Invest in your children – they’re better than a house - and do the hard stuff to keep what’s left of your family together and you’ll be spotted by a healthy woman whose likely got everything your ... . wife does - and a whole lot more. [heck …I’m still waiting for the ‘dating thread’ to appear around here, there are some mighty impressive non’s out there ]

…so OK… here’s me, fresh over from the ‘leaving threads’ after having had some recent contact from my uexBPDgf …and wondering (yet again ) if there’s hope…  But what I’ve learned is they’ve serious life limits.  Learn them, and if so inclined, proceed accordingly.  I’ve often read you can never get back to where ‘you once were’ with them.  Perhaps that’s true with many marriages (I did nearly 30 years), but as long as you know what you’re getting yourself in to, you’ll never be hurt quite as bad.  At least that’s how it seems to be working after my 2.5 year on-again off-again r/s with a BP.  Focus on your children – they’re you’re best investment, and those efforts will not go unnoticed or unappreciated.  BP’s are not as good an investment, so if for any reason you allow your ‘wife’ back into your lives - never again invest as much …and always keep your eyes open for others.  You’ll win, because she can’t... .  And as mentioned above – we’re with you

[MarkMo]

Thank you again for the kind words. I am just hoping that I get the chance to be with my kids. My wife is extremely convincing to others, especially when you just meet her. I have long divorce and custody battles a head.

As I write everything down I can't stop thinking to myself, "where does she get off even coming close to blaming me for everything?". I just don't think she has any concept of what I have been through. Well I know she doesn't considering she thinks there is absolutely nothing wrong with her and that all of her actions were justified by my actions.

I started this thread because I can no longer sleep. The Zanex that I was prescribed, does nothing. I'm awake more now than I was before I started writing everything down. I know its because I look back on the relationship and ask myself if she was ever telling the truth, much less lately. I ask if she has it in her to absolutely manipulate me to the point that she did a few weeks back (she said and did some very hopefully and amazing things for me) or if she actually did in fact feel something.

I understand the things that I did wrong to trigger certain responses in people. However, the responses I got from her were just such not normal responses, ie me making an inappropiate comment to a friend and her response was telling a 3 month lie that led to daily deception, a fake job, kids being in unpaid daycare, getting friends, family, and strangers at wedding involved, having me help her with "work" and almost quitting my job to work for her fake company, "fake" bosses and coworkers yet real people, and a 2 week "business trip" to California so she could get away from the family and have an affair with an old friend.

I mean I know that there were things that led up to that but the year before was something different as well.

I want her back so bad but I cannot deal with all these kinds of things again and she looks like there is no end in stop even with her current bf. I know she is texting other guys behind his back or at least was until she got a new phone. However, she said she wanted the Ipad to come with the kids for educational games or is it because she can Imessage all day with him having no clue.

[Validation78]

Hi Mark!

Sorry things seem to have gotten worse for you since you started this thread. The fact is, all of these truths were there, you're just coming to terms with them as you reflect. It's hard, it sucks, and it's not fair, I know.

So, now you have to decide how to proceed. I don't mean to sound harsh at a time when you are feeling sad, however, you have some serious business at hand. You have to take care of yourself and your kids.

Let's face it. Without help, she is not going to get better, so the only choice you have is to get better yourself. Start with deciding what you want, formulating a plan to get it, and moving on your decisions. You can lick your wounds along the way, grieve your loss, feel sad. It's all part of growth.

If you decide that you do not want to stay in this relationship, check out The Family Law board on this site. There are many folks there who have been in your shoes. Yes, this will be hard, and will take time. The thing is, it's hard  now, and always will be unless you do something about it.

Best Wishes,

Val78

[MarkMo]

Val78,

   Thank you. I know that I have done a lot for myself and once school starts I'm sure it will be a lot easier because the kids and I will have a stable schedule. She hates the person I have become since I left because it is so much different than even the person she married, in a good way. 

The hard part, as you said, is the reflection. It's the WOW, was anything real? The strange part is that I know that she wants certain things in life but just can't help herself.

I also know that the blaming me for everything is in part due to the validation that she is receiving.

Going forward is tough. I have been reading a lot on unconditional love. I know that I would have unconditional love for her BPD or not. I know that my new knowledge of what makes her tick and respond to certain situations will help but I'm just unsure as to how much. I guess that's why I feel that the only way to know is to try. But then we all know the risks in that.

Right now, I know there is no one thing that I could say to change her mind on anything. She will need to figure this all out for herself. Unfortunately, she may hate me by the end of this divorce and custody process.

I know she hates me now in large part due to the validation and thinking everything was my fault. I guess oh well for now. I am so back and forth. Lol the ups and downs right now are crazy.

[Inside]

MarkMo, my observations often seem too close to my own experiences, thus the best advice around here comes from those apparently capable of viewing this from a few more steps back.  I suspect we’ve all experienced very many of the same behaviors and antics you’re compiling right now.  I also know that feeling of want.  Though this sounds like the most difficult point, treat it like a beginning – an opportunity to stop the insanity in your life, and to some degree, that of your children.  

You say: “The strange part is that I know that she wants certain things in life but just can't help herself.”

That may be the number one impression we all get from our BP partners – they want to be ‘normal,’ but from all I’ve learned, they can only pretend... .  They can only come so close to the feelings we share, value, and act on.  They’re view of the world is so clouded with fear and confusion they’re afraid to share it or attempt to seriously reshape it.  Instead, they repeat patterns of behavior that have allowed them to simply survive.  It appears that some can keep up a ‘normal’ facade longer than others, though as you’ve described, recounting all that misbehavior …they never were healthy or whole -- and unless someone close enough is seriously ‘keeping score,’ most ignore it and focus on what they/ we like.

Mine claimed to know nothing of BPD, though had (unknowingly to me at the time) constantly projected behaviors and descriptions of it at me.  And seemingly like you, I seriously doubted ‘my’ behavior.  But unlike her, I was willing and capable of instantly doing as deep a self-analysis with regard to any accusation as necessary, and they didn’t add up.  But after I pieced together her BPD behavior (with some couples counseling & constant research), and feeling that if ‘she knew’ what it was that kept tripping her up in life …and that I’d be here/ there to help her through whatever it took to get beyond it … I was met with instant denial.  She would accept my financial, emotional and logistical support, but other than some ‘counseling around the edges’ (which once led me to return to her), she shows no sign or consistent desire to take on the BPD :'(

If your wife is one of the ‘higher functioning’ BP’s, as my gf is, it’s very difficult to convince others of their condition ... . as an inordinate amount of their life energy and intellect is focused on hiding their affliction.  But like most PD’s, they need a safe harbor in which to let loose and be themselves.  That’s what we see …though admittedly continue to love…  Who can’t still occasionally relate to or appreciate a childish tantrum?  But when such behavior leaves an adult dysfunctional and incapable of committing to and maintaining an adult relationship, or life in general, we need to get (and stay) serious.

In your case, unless she admits to herself and those closest to her that she needs help - she won’t seek or accept the level of intervention necessary to move forward.  Another thing, that I don’t hear mentioned often enough around here…  Mine has a serious fear of intimacy, so much so, she’s convinced me (for various reasons) that she’s not had or is having sex with the men she teases.  Even the feedback I get from them (a network of mutual friends) confirms as much.  But with Aids alone floating out there …along with a multitude of STD’s… if she’s been or planning, or even capable of bringing something back to you.  Well, that fear alone would mean ‘game over’ for me.  It’s one thing to gamble with the instability of their emotional lives – and quite another to gamble with our own health.  

…so what I’m mainly trying to say is – listen to Val78   it’s a perspective I admittedly lack, though care ~

[SweetCharlotte]

I second Val78 (you need to take care of yourself and get ready for a possible legal battle) and Inside (the danger of STD's is real and makes infidelity a non-negotiable).

I would add, regarding your question about the kids' iPads, is that these devices are addictive for both kids and pwBPD's. It may be that the kids can't be away from their favorite apps. However, for the pwBPD, the iPad FaceTime app is a powerful medium for flirting, teasing, and fooling around. It's like Skype, only easier and more portable. It is on iPhones as well as iPads. My uBPDh loves it, and I know he is not using it with me!

[MarkMo]

I know that it will be a battle in court. I have already told this to my attorney. We have mediation at the end of the month and I already know that will be pointless. She has no desire to work, she didn't work while we were married and now she wants me to pay for her to live and her bfs house. That and now she realized that she would have to pay child support so she has changed her mind from wanting the kids every other weekend to wanting them M-F.

I have been working on myself and I have been there for the kids. I am not saying that I have that totally covered but I am getting there.

As far as the topic goes though. Well the cheating is an issue for sure. If we were ever to get back together, then I would ask her to be tested. We all know how well that would go over.

But more so on topic. Right now I am struggling with how bad her BPD is. I know that I could have been a much better husband. As I write things down, I see how much better I could have been. I mean I am on page 20 and I have not gotten to the good stuff of this year yet but how much of what I did triggered her behavior.

She told me yesterday that she doesn't want to be in a relationship where she has to lie for someone to like her. However, I know that she has lied about our past already or at least exaggerated it and left out some key details of her role for sure. How much is this normal behavior for being hurt and how much is the lying and manipulation and now wanting to hurt me, part of the PD?

The other thing she said was it was about her and not her bf. She was happy now that she wasn't in a relationship like we had and it was about her happiness and she didn't have to do this or worry about that. Its just hard for me to see right now whats going on because I know I wasn't the perfect husband. I'm not sure if I was just a bad husband or her PD just finally got to me.

I know that part of this is manipulation to get me to stop going to Church, (a Church that she was a member of but quit), doubt myself, and things like that. It will not stop me from going to Church but I am surely wondering how big a role I played in her PD.

I mentioned loving her unconditionally and that is why I have been able to forgive her. She keeps bringing up stuff from the past over and over and saying that she loved me unconditionally but has always brought things up. I don't know, I honestly can't sleep anymore because things that she says and the situation keep running through my head. Its not that I don't sleep. I just wake up about 50 times before midnight. It stinks

Thank you for all of your support and I know that I need to take care of me. I'm starting INSANITY! tomorrow and I have been going to Church to restore myself to who I am from who I became in the marriage. 

I am doing things with the kids all the time especially now when I have the time. Its going to be difficult when I have to go back to work. (Out for back surgery) Then even out of the 3-4 days a week that I get them, Ill be working part of that. I know I will rapidly get better once everything is set into place.