Parental Alienation

[thisyoungdad]

I am not sure if this is the correct board to post this on or not. So to start off we are nearing the end of a nasty divorce but we managed to do it through collaborative means. We have a settlement to sign in the next couple weeks at most, my attorney is getting it all ready to go as fast as she can.

In the past few weeks since we came to that agreement the soon to be ex has been relatively pleasant to deal with on a very casual level. Then this week a few things have occurred.

First I asked for some information about our daughter, which per the parenting plan agreement she is required to give to me and I would be to her. She refuses, blatantly in an email even. Since Wednesday when that happened now two more things. One was an email that when I showed to a friend who barely knows the situation his first response was "wow it sounds like she is trying to push you out and alienate you from your daughter" which was pretty intense that was his first comment. Then I came home tonight and find a bag of some items for my daughter on my porch. One item I had requested, the others were thing I have given her to have at her mom's house, so like 2nd's of things. It was a few items but none the less the note I got with it was she didn't need them.

Anyway though this line from her email that I showed my buddy is concerning, and I was hoping to hear some people's thoughts. She says "I understand that you would like for this to be a mutual decision and I understand that 100%. However, that is not the reality with divorce." because she is making a rather large unilateral decision about our daughter. I am pissed and even more so when she sent me an email with this in there.

Anyway she is breaking our parenting agreement left and right and I am documenting it all but I feel so frustrated and out of control (which I am out of control for her behaviors) but I feel like she is baiting me or something. I am just frustrated, she got what she wanted, a divorce, and she still has to initiate crazy stuff all the time. i get an inflammatory email weekly at least where she is "just telling me something" but that something is in violation of the parenting plan or so disrespectful and not at all the best for our daughter is does inflame me.

Just feel like screaming tonight. I also feel like once our collaborative settlement is signed and done that I want to sue for primary custody. I am afraid she is attempting to set up something to do the same. I don't really know for sure.

[ForeverDad]

It is typical for the disordered parent to re-interpret the agreement or order into his/her entitled/controlling perception of how it is to be applied.  And yes, it can even happen before it's finalized on paper.  If stbEx has stated something clearly contrary to the settlement, then I would think it prudent for your lawyer to be sure that is resolved in writing before proceeding with the final decree.  Saying "we'll fix that later" will just bring you right back to court, in my experience.  (I was back in court within a couple months after the final decree, my ex took our child on vacation without any specific advance notice, written or verbal.)

A concern I have is that some or many courts have a policy not to change orders or custody very often.  Some here have mentioned their courts had a policy of one-year minimum between major order changes.  Doesn't mean you can't bring a Contempt of Court motion for noncompliance, but it might not enable you to change huge items like custody or parenting time.  I recall that when I got custody the court included text in the order citing that higher courts have stated that they don't expect to change custody without real basis, that don't want custody bouncing back and forth between parents jostling to claim who is the better parent.

BTW, I filed a motion for Modification of Parenting Time over a year ago.  It was supposedly simple and should have taken jsut a matter of months.  Instead it's still pending, supposed it will be resolved in or after October, my ex's attorney has filed for 4 continuances and gotten two of them.  So it's looking to be at least 15 months and possible longer.  (An ex has said she will appeal to the highest court if need be.)

Parental alienation is an issue some court try to stay hands off unless it is extraordinarily blatant.  They accept that there is friction now as the marriage is being dismantled, with normal people it starts fading after the final decree.  You will need to be alert to the risks now so you are informed on how to handle these common PD behaviors in the years to come.  Do you have Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger's Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder handbook?  How about Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison?

So I encourage you to get these issues resolved - or a good strategy - before the final issuance of the orders.  This will not be the end of issues, but you at least want to have a game plan or strategy for the years to come.  If you think you'll be seeking custody sooner rather than later, you better have a strategy NOW.  It will be expensive and time consuming no matter what, trying to make one up after-the-fact and as you go along will be even more so.

[Matt]

Set up a meeting - you and your attorney, your stbX and her attorney.  Share the information, with as much documentation as possible, and state that there will be no agreement and no further negotiations until she begins to comply with what has already agreed.  Make it clear that you believe alienation is occurring and if it continues your goal will no longer be to collaborate, but to bring the alienation to light, so you can separate the child from the other parent or limit their contact to protect the child.

The other attorney will act like she doesn't believe it, and will take her client's side in the meeting.  That doesn't mean she really thinks you are wrong, just that she is taking the side of the person who is paying her.  You don't have to argue, just state the facts and what you are planning to do.  (Work this out in advance with your attorney so she isn't blind-sided and she can fully support you in the meeting.)

Don't try to get an agreement in the meeting.  The purpose is to put the information out there and end the negotiation.  But let them know that if your stbX decides she wants peace you want that too, and she needs to end the alienation and comply with what has been agreed.  Til then there is no reason for further communication between the sides except as required by the legal process.  Make it clear you do not prefer to go to trial but you are prepared to do that - and get everything out in the open for your child's best interests.

Address yourself to the attorney not to your stbX:

"Your client is not complying with our agreement - I can prove that here and now - and I believe alienation is taking place.  My objective is no longer collaboration or a settlement - now it's to end the alienation as soon as possible and to protect my daughter from the damage that alienation causes.  I am prepared to go to trial if needed, and if we go to trial I will disclose everything I know about your client's behavior.  If that is not what you want, then you need to instruct your client to comply with our agreement and to stop any alienation which is occurring.  When I am sure that has happened, we can resume working on this agreement and maybe avoid court.  Til then, we will prepare for trial."

I agree with FD's book recommendations.  ":)ivorce Poison" is especially good on the subject of alienation.

[ForeverDad]

So to start off we are nearing the end of a nasty divorce but we managed to do it through collaborative means. We have a settlement to sign in the next couple weeks at most, my attorney is getting it all ready to go as fast as she can.

It seems most of us endure long nasty divorces.  Amazingly, most seem to end with settlements.  Court and lawyers encourage it for two reasons.  First, a settlement can't be appealed since it is an agreement and not a judges decision.  Second, the professionals know that if the two (reasonably normal) parents can settle, it helps to reduce the friction and conflict post-decree.

The problem is, at least one of the parents here is not reasonable normal.

It's possible that a settlement now may be a bit premature, your stbEx isn't quite yet at the 'capitulation' point.  No, she'll likely never capitulate completely, but perhaps she needs to be painted a little more into a corner timewise, so to speak where her options are not so entitled?  For many of us that point isn't reached until Trial is right there looming overhead.  Yes, it's costly to pay for trial preparation but sometimes that's what it takes so that the settlement is on somewhat reasonable terms and not the pwBPD's entitled/demanded terms.

However, I'm not saying you should abandon the collaborative approach.  I'm just saying don't capitulate and give in just because she refuses to listen to reason or be even a little reasonable.  Your need to get a decent order that is enforceable and has at least some teeth.

In my case, we went all the way to Trial Day - some 22 months into the divorce process - with no hint of real negotiation along the way.  Then I arrived for the trial and I was greeted with the news that then-stbEx finally wanted to settle.  She couldn't settle until she HAD to settle right then or start the trial.  It was at that point I set one of my terms.  The court's parenting investigator and the custody evaluator had already recommended more time for me and even the subtle preference to try Shared Parenting, so I set the bar one notch higher.  I stated I would settle if I was Residential Parent for School Purposes.  She pleaded to remain RP, she was Mother after all, but that was my single major condition.  I would be RP or we'd have the trial and let the magistrate decide.  Both lawyers, even mine, chimed in saying RP didn't matter, but I held to that.  And so we negotiated the terms while the magistrate waited.  Hey, we had all day reserved and still got it done by about noon.

Side point... . Why was I adamant about Residential Parent, of all things?  I knew there had been incidents between her and our child's kindergarten teacher.  The teacher even told me she would no longer let her into the classroom, yet there I was sometimes volunteering a half day in the class.  I felt RP was my shoe in the door for gaining more parenting later.  Sure enough, she flamed out within a couple months.  School had agreed to let our child remain in the class for the rest of the school year but soon, 5 or 6 weeks before the end of school year, I was told by the principal I had ONE day to enroll him in my school district.  Wow, what documentation.  The lawyers were so wrong, being RP made a difference for me.

[livednlearned]

I'm worried about the collaborative agreement. Once you sign it, you will have a very tough time getting primary custody. The judge will look at it and think, "You said you agreed to this. Now you're changing your mind." You'll need to show substantial reasons to change the parenting plan. Or, you'll need to show substantial evidence (documentation) of serious instability. That can take years.

Or have you already signed the parenting plan and the terms of the collaborative divorce are separate?

[thisyoungdad]

We have not signed anything yet. I have a large stack of documentation that shows her instability. I have documented everything, have witness statements to the biggest craziest stuff. I have some evidence to prove that she is not on her meds or seeing her psychiatrist (for what she claims in Bi polar but either way off her meds). Thankfully I never get rid of anything so I have emails and other documentation from the years we were together that now I can see how crazy they were, the things other people were seeing and I couldn't see involving the child. It would be hard yes, she is also slowing hanging herself as more and more people are seeing. So really she may hang herself first. Of course I just prefer we could stay with the 50/50 custody arrangement.

I did contact my attorney though and we are going to discuss the situation prior to signing anything.

[Matt]

Of course I just prefer we could stay with the 50/50 custody arrangement.

Why?

Do you think that's best for the kids?

[ForeverDad]

Of course I just prefer we could stay with the 50/50 custody arrangement.

Why?

Do you think that's best for the kids?

Good question, if she's unstable, why would you want 50/50?  Or is it that she is wanting more nd you feel you will counter that by being "fair" seeking just 50/50?  The problem iwth that is that if she seeks 99% and you seek 50%, judge could very easily split the difference and you could live as the typical non-primary parent with alternate weekends and a little in between.  (Yes, I know that mothers are often defaulted to being primary time parent, but your odds might be better if you officially sought more than 50%... . under the principle "Ask for something and you might get it, don't ask for something and you certainly won't get it."

she is breaking our parenting agreement left and right

This is a window into the future, what life will be like after the orders are set.  Unless you get an order with teeth - difficult to do since most orders are written somewhat vaguely and so it is difficult for the non-compliant or misbehaving parent to suffer consequences.

[livednlearned]

The biggest lesson I learned about custody is that the clock truly starts ticking once you sign your first legal document. Don't use a legal document as a bartering chip for something else. It won't work in your favor. Don't think of it as something that is easy to change at a later date. If you agree to one thing and then ask for another, you have a much, much harder uphill battle than if you refused to sign it the first time.

For example, my ex and I mediated everything except I would not agree to joint legal decision-making. By default, we had to make joint legal decisions during an interim period. But when I finally had enough evidence to show that he could not handle joint decisions, the judge saw that I never signed off on joint legal. It made it easier for me to get what I knew was best for S12.

Also, once you have hearings, it can become difficult to enter evidence from before that hearing. For example, if you agree to 50/50 now, at a later date, the evidence you have from before signing may not be admissible.

[Matt]

Fathers usually ask for too little and then regret it later.

(That's a gross oversimplification, but of the many bpdfamily.com members who are fathers, it seems to be pretty true.)

Better to ask for what you really believe is best for the kids, and then maybe settle for less if you can't get that.

[Ishenuts]

One thing that I have found is that the way a normal, intelligent person would interpret conditions in a parenting plan doesn't necessarily mean that a pwPD would interpret it the same way, especially if they think they have found a loophole that will benefit them! And you'll find yourself back in court because the only person they feel qualified to interpret it is a judge! Make the conditions in your parenting plan as black and white as possible now, before you sign it.

Example:

Regarding Right of First Refusal, our parenting plan reads: "Each parent shall have the right of first refusal to care for the children if they will be away from the children for more than five (5) hours.The parties shall provide the other with reasonable notice in exercising the right if first refusal"[/b] Seems pretty clear, right? I brought up to our parenting coordinator (big waste of time!) that the exH had gotten a babysitter for our D11 while he attended our S11 baseball games (double headers and no doubt they would go > 5 hrs) = being away for 7 and 8 hours respectively, and he did not offer our DD to me first. Just asked to reemphasize the conditions around RoFR, not threatening court, or anything. But to NPDs every time you call them on their behavior, it's a threat. (He did say to me afterwards, "You already get them 50% of the time. You're not getting them 1 minute more!)

This is what my uNPDexH is asking the court for clarification on, and making me incur the cost of a lawyer for, etc:

"Is there a difference if the child is at a friend's house and the friend's parent is watching them verses a child being at the parent's house with a friend and a sitter watching them? Would both if over 5 hours require the other parent to be notified?

My next question is that being the children are almost eleven, they are at a stage where they may want to spend more than 5 hours with one of their friends or with the friends family or with a relative. How does that work with the 5 hour rule?

I would ask the court to consider changing the rule from five (5) hours to twenty four (24) hours . That way the children can go to a friends house in the afternoon and sleep over their friends house. Since both parents are responsible, it should be up to the custodial parent whose time it is unless that parent is going away for more than a day"

Play dates and sleepovers have never been an issue. It is when he uses a third party paid babysitter instead of me. But because our parenting plan is not black and white to include play dates and sleepovers or a paid babysitter, he's using that loophole to try to get it changed from 5 to 24 hours. My lawyer thinks it'll be a slam dunk for me, but with the current state of the family court system, who knows?

Look at your parenting plan conditions and get them as detailed as possible! A lesson learned the hard, and expensive, way!

[thisyoungdad]

Isshenuts- yep we had those issues. First the wife got a sitter for a few times that were more than 4 hours, which is what we have in our agreement for the right of first refusal. Then she got someone for 2 whole days and an overnight and didn't mention it to me until the day before, and she said to me literally this is word for word "I didn't realize that this counted as something I needed to ask you about in regards to the right of first refusal" ... . that is straight from her email? I was perplexed how she wouldn't see it. From what I know she is asking me now first, at least to my knowledge.

The big issue for me right now is two fold. One is communication, we have a very detailed communication clause in the agreement that at first I didn't like but now love, and it was entirely, 100% at her wishes, she came up with it etc and now she refuses to follow it. I email about something in regards to our daughter, if she got it on say a Tuesday she has until Wednesday night to respond etc. She reads them and judges if they count and if she should respond. There is no place for that in the agreement.

There is at least one other area that I am livid about, maybe 2 now that I think about it.

Matt- to answer your question the reason I settled for 50/50 is because she is a high powered doctor, I am about a decade younger, just got my undergraduate degree after serving in the military and am unemployed now that she kicked me to the curb in my last semester. So I struggled to finish school and now am struggling to make ends meet while looking for employment even though she pays some spousal support. I also got the pets and all our crap, which means where I can rent is more complicated. Anyway so all this to say despite most of her friends falling away she could still potentially do a lot of harm to me in this small city. I also have PTSD from the military and another issue that in theory she could use against me but isn't a mental health issue, but could be something I am discriminated against for in this type particular situation. So to me risking losing 50/50 in an attempt to gain primary custody at this moment in my life is very scary. Especially since I am not the biological father (long story but I can't have biological kids) and so I almost lost my daughter despite being with the ex even before she got pregnant. My attorney had to threaten her and tell her I would sue her for parental rights and she would be made to look horrible because I would easily win. Then she conceded and allowed me to adopt, but not before running off with my daughter on more than one occasion and denying me access and refusing to tell me where they were for days on end. The ex also has dual citizenship with Canada and family with loads of money out of state who would love to see me gone. So to fight her with such limited resources on my side feels like suicide.

My attorney is well aware of all of this and we are talking again this week. We have not signed anything.