Insanity

[FaithfulHope]

Verbena,

I do hope that she snaps out of it and gets responsible but these behaviors go way way way back.  She manipulates to get out of doing things.   For example, she just called me this afternoon and started out telling me how she is 'going to be' calling this new place where she allegedly got a job (a pizza place) to get her schedule.  Then she said she is also having an interview with another place for a waitress job and so 'she will have that job too'.  So then she told me that the family she is living with just had their house auctioned off and they have to all move in 60 days so she and her girlfriend and 2 other friends are getting an apt.   So then... . 'the ask' comes.   All this was to prepare me for the purpose of the call that I knew was coming.  She then talked about how she is going to do 'everything she can' to not have to ask me this, but... . just in case 'would I be able to co-sign on the apt' for them.   

It was all I could do to not laugh out loud.   I told her I would think about it but not to get her hopes up.   She knows we have been down this road multiple times before.  She also knows that she still isn't being responsible financially so why on earth would we do this.   

So then she flipped out because I didn't say yes.   She said, 'Mom I am doing the best I can!  What more do you want from me?   All I am asking you for is this one thing... . '   So I said very calmly, 'name, lets be honest here.   You aren't working.  You haven't been working'   To which she then stammered and yelled and then hung up.  So then the texting rage began.  But I gave it some time and wrote back that I had talked to her dad and we talked about it and unfortunately we are not going to be able to co-sign.   I told her we were sorry but we just can't do it.    She came back a few times trying to get things into an argument where she could try to maneuver me.  But I only replied one more time that I was sorry but I couldn't say yes to her request.   

I am trying to learn how to be more validating but at the same time keep boundaries.   I wish she would just work.  If I saw her giving effort at being responsible and paying off her debts and working steadily I would be willing to help more.   But this is just more of the same at this point.   It's more important to sleep all day and go out partying all night than to pay bills.   Bills are for 'other' people in her mind.  She is fully capable of working.  She just doesn't want to.  Never has.   She baffles me.

But your conversation with your dd gives me hope!   I do hope that with age she will gain some maturity and eventually realize she just HAS to face some sort of responsibility.  We all do.   sigh... .

Thanks for your support!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Verbena]

FaithfulHope,

Your daughter talks a good game, just like my daughter always has.  I don't blame you for being baffled by her refusal to get a job.  You definitely did the right thing in refusing to co-sign for the apartment.  We helped our daughter out of one financial crisis after another.  She paid us back sometimes, but mostly she didn't.  Yet, if you were to ask her, she would say she paid back every dime.  In fact, right now she is  behind on her cell and insurance which we pay every month because she's still on our accounts.

My DD never had any trouble getting jobs and was willing to work--if she felt like it.  She CANNOT get up and go to work every day like everyone else.  She just can't do it. She would stay up until all hours texting and talking on the phone, embroiled in some kind of drama usually,  so she could never get up when she was supposed to.  She lived with us until she was 26, so I was well aware of how often she called in "sick" or went in late. 

Usually, she managed to keep the job even with her terrible attendance.  I never understood how she got away with it. And, of course, there were always people at every job who treated her badly.    Now she has a job (a very good one) where she can make her own hours for the most part.  She would like for us to think that she gets up every morning and goes to work, but I know she doesn't.  In fact, at the May 8 phone records ambush her husband said to us, "How can she have all these problems you say she does if she gets up and goes to work every day?"  He is in such denial.  He knew before they lived together that she never went to work five consecutive days, much less on time, and he knows she doesn't now either. 

Maybe you could tell your daughter that when she proves to you that she has worked steadily for six months, you will consider co-signing for an apartment.  Again, you did the right thing in not giving in to her.  I know all too well about those rage texts, too.  I used to try to respond and reason with her at those times, but now I just read them and delete them. 

[vivekananda]

 

So then she flipped out because I didn't say yes.   She said, 'Mom I am doing the best I can!  What more do you want from me?   All I am asking you for is this one thing... . '   So I said very calmly, 'name, lets be honest here.   You aren't working.  You haven't been working'   To which she then stammered and yelled and then hung up. 

Well done for sticking to your boundaries.   Now, could you have preceded your response with a validating and supportive statement before you told her the truth? It may not have made any difference to the outcome this time, but if you follow a validating format (while sticking to your boundaries ... . and be willing to negotiate if and when appropriate), then in the long term it may make a difference. As mums of BPD kids here, we are really looking at a long term situation, aren't we?

TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

thinking of you both,

Vivek    

[FaithfulHope]

Dear Verbena and Vivek ,

I am definitely a work in progress here.  I am getting better at not letting her bait me into the fight she wants but I still have to work on my responses.  You are totally right that I should have preceded the truth with validation and empathy.   In hindsight I now think I should have said something like "I feel badly for the situation you guys are in right now.   It must be scary to learn that you have to move in 60 days.   Dad and I now have bigger expenses ourselves with your brother heading to college this fall.   But the truth of the matter is... . (and then lead into the part I did say?) 

Would that have been more appropriate?

It definitely takes practice to follow these steps but I can see that it does work at making the relationship better.   I wish my husband was reading this too. 

He came home and when we talked about it he just kept saying "But where will she live?"   I know his 'dad' side is wanting to just take her back in here.  Which of course won't fix anything.  I feel like he resents me at times for insisting that we stick to boundaries.   It's very hard for him because she is a girl.   His worries cloud his logical thinking that she puts herself in this 'almost homeless' position time and time again by just mooching off people and not working.

Verbena, thank you for sharing about your daughters history with work.   i go back and forth in my mind on this issue because I have wondered for years if she is capable of holding down a steady job.   I asked the best therapist we had along the way, the one who hit the ground running with her and knew all about BPD and DBT also.   I asked her if she should be on public assistance and she clearly feels my dd is capable of doing this herself.   I talked the other day to another therapist she has had who also agrees that she CAN do whatever she puts her mind to.  They both told me that cognitively she is extremely capable and should be working.   When she was in hot water with the courts over the grand larceny conviction she was ordered to work, get her GED, pay fines, do community service.  She diligently worked and went to school for months with no issues.   We were so pleased with her progress we allowed her back home, helped her get a car and thought we had finally gotten on the right path for good.   

As soon as probation was lifted... .   she went right back to old habits.


So... . that seems to me that its a choice.   Right?   I don't know.   That's the hardest part for me.   I don't want to see my daughter homeless.  But when she is on facebook asking people to chill out with her because she is bored while she is lying about working... . well, then I think she is just rejecting responsibility.   Just like when she was a young girl and just DIDN'T do her homework.   Now she just DOESN'T work.  She just DOESN'T pay bills.   She makes my head spin.   

Sorry to ramble.  Thanks for the input.

 

[Verbena]

FaithfulHope,

If your daughter did so well when she was on probation, that's a good sign that she is capable of doing what she needs to do when she is FORCED to do it.  Right now, she knows she can get by without  working/being responsible and will  probably continue her behavior until  her resources run out.  And that time surely will come.  I can't imagine that friends will allow her to sponge forever.  The older she gets, the less likely others will be so accomodating to her when she refuses to work.   

I know the thought of her being homeless is horrifying to your and your husband.  However, it might come to that and might not be a bad thing if that's her rock bottom.  If she does become homeless, it won't be your fault for not taking her back in. 

A cluttered mind and cluttered environment seem to go hand in hand from my experience.  I am a neat freak myself, and it drove me nuts how my daughter trashed her room and bathroom and did nothing toward the upkeep of our house when she lived here.  It was such a battle to get her to do anything that I gave up and cleaned up after her constantly.  I couldn't stand it otherwise. 

She would start her laundry only to let clothes sit in the washing machine wet for days on end.  If she actually remembered to transfer the wet clothes to the dryer, she usually couldn't manage to get them out before they were wrinkled.  If she did remember, it would be a miracle if she got them folded and put away.  She would throw clean clothes on the floor (on top of the dirty ones already there) instead of hanging them back up when she changed her mind about what to wear.  If she opened a drawer to get the scissors to cut a tag off a new item of clothing (she shopped a lot!), she would leave the drawer open, the scissors on the counter, and the cut off tag on the floor where it dropped.  She would open a Dr. Pepper and take two sips, set it by her bed, and then open another one two hours later and do the same thing. 

She created chaos for herself  emotionally and chaos for herself and us in her environment. 

Now that she has her own home, she seems a little better.  She will let her house get really bad before she cleans it up, but she will clean it up.  Actually, I think her husband does most of the actual cleaning, but she will put things away. She told me not long ago that when her house was a disaster, it really bothered her and stressed her out.   I took that as an invitation to give her some tips on developing different habits to reduce that stress, but she blew me off. 

Looking back, I should have never allowed her to disrespect my house the way she did.  I should have never cleaned up after her all the time.  I should have made her leave and take her chaos with her.  Hindsight is 20/20, huh? 

[FaithfulHope]

Verbena, you make me want to cry!   I feel like we are twins living the same life!  You just described my daughter to a T in how she kept her room!   Like exactly!   The Dr Pepper (OMG that is her fav soda and she drinks a TON of it!) and I can tell you that one time we were cleaning up her room and I literally found open cans with a sip or two gone under her bed!  Sitting up on the carpeting!   I'll never forget that one!

And the tags... . OMG that is my dd also!   She had a wastebasket right beside her dresser but the tags and any other trash would be wherever it fell, on her dresser,on her floor , or in her drawers!  Always had trash in her drawers!   That always blew my mind too as she had a can right next to the dresser.

Holy moly!

And you description of clean and dirty clothes all mingled... . same here!   Piles of clothes on the floor in the closet, mixed with trash.   

Utterly ridiculous.

But... . your dd has gotten better.  Mostly with the help of an understanding partner.   I wonder if my dd will ever find someone like that.  My dd has been with men and women.  Currently her on again/off again girlfriend.   She is just as dysfunctional.  I think my dd loves the drama and chaos of that relationship and not really the person.   But I am not sure.   They are both horrible to each other and then are crazy for each other.  Back and forth.   

I often wonder about the choices we have made and if we did certain things differently where would we be now.   I often feel as though I doted too much on the kids when they were little, and her the most being the oldest.  I didn't assign chores til they were older.   The boys are so much better at keeping things orderly.   Not chaotic.   Growing up with my uBPD mother my sister and I were basically servants to her.  So I went in too much the opposite direction with my kids.   I got better with each child.   But they did learn about doing chores... . all of them.  My dd just got a later start.   

But yet you still give me hope.  If I can just learn how to be more positive with her and validating so that she doesn't feel judged, at least our relationship will be better.   I sent her a text this morning saying some of the validating things I should have said yesterday.   Hopefully a day late isn't too bad.   

Thanks for all your sharing!   Wow!   

 

[FaithfulHope]

One more thing Verbena,

Thank you for the support on the issue of her housing.   And for your thoughts on her ability to meet responsibilities.  I do think she is capable also.  But will she ever do it?  I sure hope so!

Thanks again!

 

[Verbena]

FaithfulHope,

We really do have similar experiences!  The biggest difference is that you didn't allow your DD to stay in your home and continue to wreak the havoc  like I did.  I wonder, too, what I might have done to make my daughter the way she is.  I know that I did too much for her, and I know that I didn't educate myself sooner on what was wrong.  I also know that she grew up in a stable, two-parent home and that there was no childhood trauma as there is often is with pwBPD.  There's just no REASON for her to be this way.  If I'm honest with myself, the signs were there at least by the time she was five. 

My SIL is a good man, and I love him like a son.  I always thought he was good for my daughter and understood how to handle her.  He is now so deeply enmeshed with her denial, though, that he is doing more harm than good for her.  I guess he can't see it.  Any chance of my DD accepting that she needs to get help for her behavior has greatly diminished in the past few months because her husband is supporting her denial.  Big time. 

Your daughter is drawn to relationships full of drama just like mine always was.  If there was no drama, she created it.  She dated some real losers in the past, so we were thrilled when she started dating her husband.  He was head and shoulders above the rest.  I still think a lot of him, but his behavior over the past few months has really shocked me.  He's so logical and reasonable and NORMAL--or he used to be.  Is it an act?  Does he really see how crazy all this is, or is he putting up a front?  I don't know. 

My advice would be to stay strong about not allowing her to come back home.  I will forever regret that I subjected my son to so much craziness from his sister.  It didn't seem to affect him adversely, but I always wonder.  He told me recently that  he accepted early on "how she is" and that he tried not to add to our problems because he knew we had our hands full.  I thank God for that. 

[FaithfulHope]

Verbena,

As with my dd, we had no trauma or abuse either but I truly think it was genetic in our case.  I think my mom had it.  My layperson's guess is that this kind of thing can be brought on by trauma or abuse or genetics.  I really think its a brain disorder through birth or maybe head trauma or maybe even lack of proper nutrition.   But I really believe these people's brains must look different.  I saw this Dr. Amen on PBS and he does brain scans and can see all sorts of things.   I bet he could recognize this disorder.   I really think the part of the brain that deals with emotions and empathy is abnormal in my dd. if, God forbid, I wind up outliving her, I would like to donate her brain for research.   

That is wonderful that your daughter found a good partner.  And I am sure her disorder has changed him.   Living with a pwBPD does make you different.  I can attest to that since I have had my dd in and out of our home 5 times in the past 4 yrs.   I can function so much better when I am not living with her.   Being around their chaos does affect us all.  She is lucky to have someone to stand by her. 

My dd is always surrounded by people who are unstable like she is.   She can't seem to climb up.  In fact she seems to sink ever lower.  Her behavior and her language and her appearance.   it's not good.   

Your son reminds me of my older son who is leaving for college.   I have always been open and honest with him about his sister.   He is a very laid back mature kid.   We have always felt bad that we hold the boys to a higher standard than our dd.  But we would always talk to them about her condition and they seem understanding.   They are both so good with her.   The only time my college bound boy was truly angry with her was when he was a freshman in hs and she ran away from home while I was at school with him for an event and she was supposed to be watching her little brother (age 9 at the time) and he was playing at a friends in the neighborhood and he left and he was locked out of the house.   My older son would not talk to her for about 6 months.   But other than that they both are so good to her.  Perhaps siblings deal with it better than parents.   

Your comment about feeling badly that you didn't educate yourself sooner... .   I know that feeling too but I think we parents are on a journey.   I am sure that you were searching for answers all along just as I was.  It's just taken us a long time to get to the answers.   I couldn't find anyone who had a child who lied like mine.  I searched and searched and there were no books.  I have thought in recent years about maybe writing a book about my journey with my dd.  However, I wonder if it would just be too depressing?   I don't know if things would have been better or worse if I knew back when she was younger if I learned then that she maybe one day be diagnosed with BPD.   Maybe we were both better off not knowing.  I don't know.   

All I do know is that I am so grateful to have found people like you!     

[Verbena]

FaithfulHope,

We do, indeed, share a very similar story. My DD never really cared anything about her brother for years (and still really doesn't although she pretends to on Facebook)  and he knew to stay out of her way.  He told me a few weeks back that he would have liked to have a relationship with her growing up.  That just broke my heart.  Your sons seem to be a great comfort to you, and they can continue to be even if one of them is leaving home for college.  AT least he's only an hour away. 

I THINK I read somewhere that BPD is detectable on a brain scan.  Maybe it's genetic in my DD's case, too.  There is some instability on my husband's side of the family.  I just struggle with how much of this is her choice.  I've seen her control her behavior around certain people even though I know she still feels and thinks the way she does.

I just wish she would get herself into therapy and make some changes before she becomes a mother.  She said to me before the wedding last year that they wanted to wait a few years so they could travel and enjoy themselves before having a child.  She said, "Once you have a child, your life is over."  I truly think she feels that way.  She SAYS she wants children (and I know her H does), but I think she is secretly afraid to.  I think she knows she can't cope.  She cannot handle ANY kind of stress, so I worry about a child being brought into this mess.   

Take care, FaithfulHope, and know that you and your family are in my prayers.   

[pessim-optimist]

So then she flipped out because I didn't say yes.   She said, 'Mom I am doing the best I can!  What more do you want from me?   All I am asking you for is this one thing... . '   So I said very calmly, 'name, lets be honest here.   You aren't working.  You haven't been working'   To which she then stammered and yelled and then hung up.  So then the texting rage began.  But I gave it some time and wrote back that I had talked to her dad and we talked about it and unfortunately we are not going to be able to co-sign.   I told her we were sorry but we just can't do it.    She came back a few times trying to get things into an argument where she could try to maneuver me.  But I only replied one more time that I was sorry but I couldn't say yes to her request.   

Hi FaithfulHope,

When we say no to our pwBPD, there's often a strong reaction (and sometimes that is unavoidable).

Now, looking at your post, thinking about it in the comfort of my home, it is easier to think and analyze. And what I'm thinking is that your dd was probably going to be upset in either case. There may have been a way to avoid the bait for the first argument, though.

And I am not criticizing, just brainstorming for future opportunities... .

When she said 'Mom, I am doing the best I can... . All I'm asking you for is this one thing... . '

I'd suggest saying something like: 'I know you are trying hard, and I am proud of you for that.' And if she pressed again for a yes, I'd hold my ground by pointing to myself: 'This would be a responsibility for me and your dad, that we need to consider. I will let you know if we are able to help you with that.'

I am sure, that when you got back to her with a 'no', she would have been upset. And that would be another challenge for validation/boundaries... .

It's always SO hard to do this in real time, and hind-sight is always 20/20.

But this is a good place to practice and brainstorm and also a good place for   when we need them!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders