Joint parenting decisions

[momtara]

Hi everyone.  I have primary residential custody of the kids.  Hubby has visitation.  We have joint legal custody so we have joint decision making.  Our agreement means we have to agree on major decisions - medical, dental, education, etc.  We are going thru divorce and almost done.  This is upsetting my husband.

My husband, out of spite, has been just saying 'no' to things or changing his mind.  In the last week, he's said no to routine dental followup exams and a followup eye exam for the kids, saying "our son's eyes are fine."  The doc recommended the followup.

My lawyer advises me that I can just take the kids to their checkups anyway.  However, hubby frequently takes situations like this out of context and uses them as justification for his own bad behavior.  If I take them over his vehement objections, then he will someday do something with the kids that I object to, and say, "Well, you took them for those appointments that I didn't want to."

I would just rather have him agree to these appointments, but I haven't been able to change his mind.

So I am trying to limit contact with him for a few days to see if he calms down and relents.  However, I am thinking that this pattern will continue for some time, and we need to send a lawyer letter stressing that he needs to stop saying 'no' to everything, and that these are non risky appointments and he should discuss with me, not make co-parenting so difficult.

I don't want to set him off further, and unfortunately, this will do that.  At the same time, I think something needs to be said.  Will it help?  I honestly don't know.

What do you think?  I have to always be so delicate because I don't want him to get back at me while he has visitation with the kids, by taking them to some unnecessary appointment, or worse.

[Free One]

It's not rational for a parent to say no to routine exams and doctor recommended follow ups. I get what you are saying that he will use it against you, but it's not the same thing for you to get a child medical care against his wishes and for ex to take them on vacation against yours.

My ex showed little to no interest in being part of routine health care. The first year after divorce, I emailed all the info about exams ahead of time so he could participate. He did not; often not even responding to the fact I had informed him. I feel I made a valid attempt at co-parenting in this way, but I also can't force him to be involved. Now, I schedule appointments, take son to check ups and send ex visit summaries from the doctor after.

No one (except your irrational ex) is going to fault you for taking your children to checkups and exams. If anything, right now I would document this and see if you can use it right now in the divorce proceedings to get sole legal custody. Show that ex is not rational and not willing to communicate on these kinds of things.

What kind of unnecessary appointments or "worse" do you think he will do in retaliation?

[momtara]

So do you think I should just take the kid to the appointments and stop worrying?  I am asking my lawyer to write his lawyer a letter.  I just want him to know for the future that I tried to include him.  But maybe even a lawyer letter is an overreaction.

What am I worried about?  Anything.  Hubby could just take our son to the ER for no reason.  He did it once last year.  It was a waste, and plus, the kids are both on my insurance, and that would cost money.  Or he may just hurt one of them.  No, it hasn't happened yet, but that's because he has other ways to intimidate me.  Maybe my fears are exaggerated.  Maybe not.

I sort of think that I stand up to him, he will do worse things.  That's usually what happens, until he decides on his own to cool down.

Maybe I should inform his therapist of what's happening.

[mamachelle]

Can you try for final decision making on education and on medical?

Agree, this stuff is ridiculous. I just took kids to appointments and never asked Dad and he never said anything but I know others here have dealt with similar things.

Now is the time since stuff is being finalized to get the decision making taken care of though. Waiting will just cost you money later if you have to change things.

If you can't get it then personally, just speaking as me... . I would wait a bit and take them anyway. BPDDad will never know until he gets a bill. (if he gets a bill) Your kids are too young to say anything.


mamachelle

[Free One]

There is something in our agreement that says you have to have approval from other parent if medical costs are going to exceed X amount. Obviously a true emergency wouldn't fall under that category. Also, the doctor offices around here don't have absent parent billing, meaning which ever parent brings in the child is ultimately responsible for bills.

It's always scary to take a stand, but the more you do, the easier it gets and the less tricks he'll try to pull.

[momtara]

Sounds good.  Thanks for those specifics.  I do need to make sure the financial stuff is in a final agreement.  

I had my lawyer send a letter to his lawyer.  I think that's a good step.  I wrote most of the letter and let the lawyer change it a bit.  At first I was worried that she'd get offended by my sending a draft, but I figure, lawyers have enough to do, might as well give them something to start with.  I was very careful to be mindful of his BPD when writing it.

I feel a little better now.  Except for the fact that... . er... . I probably paid a laywer $400 to write a letter so I could take my kid for a #%^%& doctor checkup!

[Matt]

Mom,

I'm sorry, but I don't remember how old your kids are?

And do they usually tell you anything significant that happens when they're with their father?

When I was where you are now - we had separated, my wife was acting out a lot, and the legal stuff wasn't super-clear yet - I took the approach that I was going to provide what the kids needed, and trust to common sense that I wouldn't be punished for that, and it worked.

I took the kids to the doctor when they needed to go, and didn't consult my wife.  If it had been a big deal, or a tough choice needed to be made, I would have consulted her, but for checkups, dentist, etc., I'm their father and they need to go to the dentist so I take them to the dentist.

I even took them to a counselor, which is a little more controversial, but again, I figured, that's what is best for them so I'm going to do it, and my wife's lawyer did eventually try to make an issue of it, but I just said what I did and why, and the judge not only said OK, but made my wife pay part of the cost for the counselor.

As much as possible, try to do what's best without making a big deal of it.  In time, maybe things will calm down, and then you can find a way to make more decisions cooperatively, but for now that doesn't sound practical, so you just have to do what you think is right and be prepared to explain why.

[momtara]

Sounds good.  I just fear the retribution from him.  You know, "Well, I just did such and such without asking you, because remember how you took him to that doctor's appointment without consulting me?"

My kids are babies, too young to tell me what daddy did.

I do want hubby to feel comfortable with parenting decisions.

I am hoping that the one lawyer letter we sent will at least document what's happening.  And maybe will calm him down.

[thisyoungdad]

My ex will make doctors appoints on the days she has our daughter, then expect me to take her even when she is really ill and needs to go, and if I can not she just doesn't go. No canceling, just doesn't show up. Then they call me, because they know she is unreliable to get a hold of, and I usually end up taking her on my days or sometimes on her days because it needs to happen. Last time this happened, recently, our daughter was really sick. After I said I was unavailable to take her because I was out of state, she just didn't show for her appointment. The doctor called me worried. My ex is a doctor, for the same place, and is colleagues with this doctor! So then I made an appointment for my daughter 2 days later when I had her and sure enough I get this long scathing email about how I undermine her parenting and don't trust her to judge what is best for our daughter and I have no business nor do I get an opinion about what happens with our daughter when they are together blah blah. Which she invited me into that situation when she "asked" me to help her so I did have an opinion. She isn't doing what is best so no I don't trust her. Thankfully she sent that scathing email to me and both attorneys, her attorney dealt with it because she too was appalled. It was just unreal how she turned on me. So I just keep doing the right thing, maintaining my integrity and when she sends emails like that it only looks bad on her.

[Rubies]

The more of this crap that can be documented by emails before the final decree, the more it can be tweaked by the judge putting more restrictions on him with the kids.  Medical care?  That's a no brainer.  A judge sees a parent who would deny their children medical care as unfit.

I didn't have an attorney for my divorce, I couldn't afford one.  BPDxh had an expensive one.  I did however work as a children's advocate a couple of decades ago and had an idea of what the judge looks for in parents.  Give a BPD enough rope to hang themselves then put it in front of the judge.  Let the judge deal with him.

[momtara]

Thanks.

Well, our order is (I think) final since it was agreed in mediation and both attorneys had weeks to look, and then the judge signed.  The divorce itself is not final.  I wonder if stuff can be altered.  That said, I don't want to alter it too much, lest he ask the judge for more time with the kids than he has.

[momtara]

I re-read our agreement and I don't even need his consent.  We are just supposed to collaborate on decisions.  I'm kind of annoyed I wasted probably $1,000 at least sending his attorney a letter.  He just knows how to push my buttons and exert control. 

What I really should have done was what a few people suggested - stop worrying about his responses, and set clear boundaries.  Instead, I kept just responding to him, hoping the harassment would end, just like I did in my marriage.

Oh well, lesson learned.  And at least it's on record that he changes his mind frequently about decisions, large and small. 

I hope he doesn't respond to my lawyer letter with some untrue accusation, because then I have to respond and it gets expensive.

[Matt]

You don't necessarily have to respond to false accusations, unless they are communicated to the court.

[momtara]

Yeah, good point.  Or I can just email him and cc my lawyer.  I really wish I'd responded to the harassment that way last week.  Ugh, $1,000 over nothing.  We need that money for our kids.  Ridiculous.

[Matt]

Some attorneys will be happy to exchange letters and charge you for doing that.  Like you said - sending a carefully-worded e-mail to the other party, and cc:ing your attorney, might save a lot.  Or no response at all.

If at some point his accusations are put into court documents, or expressed verbally in court, I think it's important to respond quickly, strongly and clearly.  But for now, maybe any accusations he sends by e-mail just go into your file to show how dysfunctional his behavior is.

[Rubies]

Just remember your job is to be the best parent your kids can possibly have and to be their advocate.  Provide a physically and emotionally safe environment for them.  Everything else is BS you don't want in your life.  That's why you sought divorce.

[momtara]

Yup.  Sometimes I just get so flustered that I waste time responding to hubby instead of focusing on the kids.  Aargh! 

[ProfDaddy]

I'm with Matt on this one -- take the children where they need to go.  Sounds like you and your ex are still fairly entangled, which is normal at this point but very frustrating.  Obviously, he is using this as an opportunity to get attention from you, even bad attention.  If your relationship is as warped as mine was, you give him attention to avoid his tantrums and to be sure he doesn't block what the children need. 

My solution has been to disengage as much as possible, take care of things that don't require discussion to reduce interactions with my ex.  A lot depends on how you interpret "decisions."  I have primary custody of my children and our parenting plan states that medical and educational decisions are joint.  I don't inform my ex about every checkup, dental appointment, parent-teacher conference, etc. because they aren't decisions, they would happen no matter what.  Joint decisions also doesn't mean we have to attend everything together.  Initially, the ex wanted to know about every parent-teacher conference and school event -- but she was insisting that I provide that information and wanted me to be there with her.  After a year of that nonsense, I started going to the first parent teacher conference, sent a brief email update to the ex, told her to contact the teacher to schedule the next parent teacher conference.  Took myself out of her communication loop. 

The solution is mostly working; I haven't achieved total relief.  Anyhow, I send an update by email either weekly or at the end of the month to inform about routine things that have happened and let ex know they will be part of joint decisions (e.g. something like "eye dr. and medical checkups were last week, D11 stays in glasses will need to discuss contact lenses with you next year; vaccines for middle school done, scanned receipts for copayments are attached, as per the parenting plan, please reimburse your 1/2 within 30 days.".  I insist on an email response and don't answer any phone calls about non-emergency matters. 

This has worked best when the emails are kept short.  Simple sentences, bullet point lists, no more than 6 total.  No immediate responses to anything, even by email.  Only 1 response within 24 hours, business matters only.  Resist responding to provocation, even by email. 

[Free One]

Took myself out of her communication loop. 

This is something I have been working on. Ex has specific questions about what XYZ professional is doing/saying in regards to S8, I give contact information and tell him to contact the person himself. I don't want to be in the middle, but also, I don't want to be responsible for ex being an active parent. Either he is or he isn't. I'm done providing the illusion of him being active by doing all these things for him.

[momtara]

All good advice.  ProfDaddy, you have the situation about right.

Responding just continues the back-and-forth.  But sometimes if I don't respond, I miss my opportunity to calm him down.  Argh.

[Rubies]

All good advice.  ProfDaddy, you have the situation about right.

Responding just continues the back-and-forth.  But sometimes if I don't respond, I miss my opportunity to calm him down.  Argh.

It's no longer your job to calm him down.  Let him spin in his own world, collect evidence for the court for the future, and ignore.

Your new job is to be the best parent possible and advocate for your children, and to build a new, BPD free life for yourself.

[ProfDaddy]

But sometimes if I don't respond, I miss my opportunity to calm him down.  Argh.

Been there, done that.  On a bad day, I still do that.  Not our job to calm them down -- resist that trap. 

[scraps66]

I would just take the kids.  I would also downplay this on the legal side.  This type of thing can rack up expenses with lawyers with limited consistent successful results.  No one will fault you for taking care of your children and if they did it would be easy to refute even in court.  Document your advising ex of the appointments, if he goes, fine and if he does hopefully he does not interfere.  In a way, call your ex's bluff, if he feels strongly enough about you taking the kids to Dr appointments or not, have him state his concerns in front of a judge.  I would hope his L would advise him against this in hopes of not looking absurd in court.

This is a whole lot different than the more typical situation on this board of a BP parent setting up the appointments in a controlling way to prohibit the involvement of the other parent.