Big, scary news

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I just went to a friend's wedding overseas, and the day before I left I learned that my two SD's (9 and 13) BPD mom has been hired to work in the school, as a aide in the glassroom of SD9.  This is pretty devestating for a lot of reasons.  BPD mom has a history of violence with my DH.  They split up 7 years ago, and she still rages at him during any attempt at negotiation or discussion.  About every third time she sees me, she approaches me with the kids in tow and says something inappropriate... . last time it was "I don't like you.  I don't have to like you!", yelling.  For two weeks SD9 was devestated, alternately saying and writing bad things about me to her sister, then sobbing and apologizing and confessing to me, telling me she is only doing these things so her sister and mom like her. 

I have been SM for about 6 years (and the kids knew me before their parents split up as they were friends of the family), so both girls love me and are close to me. 

A little more history:  In the first few years of our relationship, there was no parenting plan in place and DH saw BPD mom often for regular exchanges.  It was very hard on the kids, as mom has done some severe parental alienation stuff, and rages at dad in front of the kids, usually blaming him for all that is hard in her and the kids' lives, even if it is completely irrational, and the kids have taken on some of her beliefs.  For SD9, she has remained loyal to all parents, telling me that we are all three her parents, that she loves us all the same (I have been her SM since she just turned 3), and that she wishes we could all live in one big house.  We have the kids 50/50 with BPD mom.

At one point, SD13, who is just coming out of being terribly enmeshed and parentified (but has snapped back due to this stuff), staged with her mom an incident at school where she demanded a meeting with dad on transition day at school and told him about how he was a terrible dad, and that she would run away if she had to live with him.  Her reasons were mostly facts, told in her mom's voice, about her MOM's father, such as "you abandoned me when I was 2" when in fact he was with her mom full time and an active parent until he and mom broke up when she was 7, and then he has had her 50/50 since.  There was no real "reason" that she did not want him that made sense.

She and mom also said that mom was going to move to another state and take the kids.  Because he had no parenting plan and things were escalating, he filed to maintain 50/50 custody and to get BPD mom to get a full psych evaluation.  The day the evaluation came out (it found her unstable emotionally, him stable, and required her to be in therapy if she was going to have 50/50), she accused DH's mom (who volunteers regularly in the class and is very close to the kids) of abuse, which has been very traumatic to the kids and her and all of us.  Fortunately, this accusation went nohwere, but BPD mom kept trying to get court orders to have the kids interviewed again and again, and one finally worked.  The result was that court staff found that "there is no way the alleged facts could have taken place." 

She still tried to get 80% custody, making lots of random accusations--that we expose the kids to adult sexuality because one of the kids opened the door to the bathroom when a houseguest was showering, accusations that I was having sex in public with guests of my wedding when DH and I married--in other words, totally bizarre stuff. 

At the 11th hour, right as the case was going to be heard by a great judge, she agreed to a detailed 50/50 plan that included written communication only between the parents, special co-parenting counseling, therapy for her, and an agreement that she would not work in or volunteer in the school during DH's custody time--DH made serious concessions to get that and it was critical to the parenting plan working, as with the parental alienation transitions have been horribly stressful for the kids and our family, and with the threat of false accusations, it is very important to DH to have parenting time where mom is not a major influence. 

The day after she signed the settlement, she went to court to get an order saying she could work in the school, and the week before also got a DUI.  The court treated the DUI mildly, and the court said it could not interfere with her ability to get work (she has never been able to keep a job for more than a few months) and thus was changing DH's existing order to allow her to work. 

Last year, she worked a couple of days in the classroom, and it was horribly stressful for the kids.  SD9 came home each time sobbing, saying "I hate myself!  I want to kill myself! Don't touch me!" 

We have also heard from others that mom has been drinking more, even on mornings before school.  She is also living/housesitting in three homes, so the kids' lives with her is very unstable.  The hard thing is that when mom is having a more chaotic, harder time, the kids tend to insist they want to live only with her, do not want to be with us.  They feel like they need to prove their loyalty to her all the more.  But normally, this is only on transition days, which is very painful and challenging, but then after the kids throw fits and rant and rave about what they and their mom need and how it is all dad's fault they are not getting what "they" need, then they are totally in love with us, very cooperative and extremely willing to work through hard things, like they are so hungry for our more peaceful, consistent life that it is a huge relief to be with us... . but on that day they see their mom in the AM and is in the PM, they are just trying to prove their love to her by rejecting us.  I am just not sure if we can deal with this happening every day, for three reasons:  1) It is terribly stressful for the girls, and particularly SD9 who feels like she is betraying her mom or us by loving us... . but she cannot help it, so she turns the anger on herself; 2) it is terribly stressful for DH and I, who work on using good parenting techniques, etc., but in times of this level of stress every day, our happiness degrades dramatically, and then we are not sure we are really offering the kids more than mom would; 3) this will be terribly stressful on BPDmom, though she has no capacity for avoiding stress for herself--she tends to move toward the hardest, worst thing for herself, and then things explode. 

Part of me feels so angry and powerless that the school would hire her.  They know their is a history of her abusing my DH in the past, and if he was a woman, I feel this never would have been allowed to happen.  I feel angry that they do not see her for who she is, that there is poor communication so those school employees who do understand have no say.  I also feel upset with DH that since we started the custody litigation, he has been so careful to always be the "good guy" that no one knows the reality of the situation.  She litterally cannot be in the same room with us without exploding, and has threatened everyone close to the kids who cares about us with terrible things (false abuse reports, etc.).  How is it going to work to see her every day?  What makes this worse is that DH is on the school board, so he cannot really question the decision to hire her as he has a conflict of interest. 

Phew.  Not sure what to do or what our options are.  Support and feedback would really help. 

[ennie]

I just went to a friend's wedding overseas, and the day before I left I learned that my two SD's (9 and 13) BPD mom has been hired to work in the school, as a aide in the glassroom of SD9.  This is pretty devestating for a lot of reasons.  BPD mom has a history of violence with my DH.  They split up 7 years ago, and she still rages at him during any attempt at negotiation or discussion.  About every third time she sees me, she approaches me with the kids in tow and says something inappropriate... . last time it was "I don't like you.  I don't have to like you!", yelling.  For two weeks SD9 was devestated, alternately saying and writing bad things about me to her sister, then sobbing and apologizing and confessing to me, telling me she is only doing these things so her sister and mom like her. 

I have been SM for about 6 years (and the kids knew me before their parents split up as they were friends of the family), so both girls love me and are close to me. 

A little more history:  In the first few years of our relationship, there was no parenting plan in place and DH saw BPD mom often for regular exchanges.  It was very hard on the kids, as mom has done some severe parental alienation stuff, and rages at dad in front of the kids, usually blaming him for all that is hard in her and the kids' lives, even if it is completely irrational, and the kids have taken on some of her beliefs.  For SD9, she has remained loyal to all parents, telling me that we are all three her parents, that she loves us all the same (I have been her SM since she just turned 3), and that she wishes we could all live in one big house.  We have the kids 50/50 with BPD mom.

At one point, SD13, who is just coming out of being terribly enmeshed and parentified (but has snapped back due to this stuff), staged with her mom an incident at school where she demanded a meeting with dad on transition day at school and told him about how he was a terrible dad, and that she would run away if she had to live with him.  Her reasons were mostly facts, told in her mom's voice, about her MOM's father, such as "you abandoned me when I was 2" when in fact he was with her mom full time and an active parent until he and mom broke up when she was 7, and then he has had her 50/50 since.  There was no real "reason" that she did not want him that made sense.

She and mom also said that mom was going to move to another state and take the kids.  Because he had no parenting plan and things were escalating, he filed to maintain 50/50 custody and to get BPD mom to get a full psych evaluation.  The day the evaluation came out (it found her unstable emotionally, him stable, and required her to be in therapy if she was going to have 50/50), she accused DH's mom (who volunteers regularly in the class and is very close to the kids) of abuse, which has been very traumatic to the kids and her and all of us.  Fortunately, this accusation went nohwere, but BPD mom kept trying to get court orders to have the kids interviewed again and again, and one finally worked.  The result was that court staff found that "there is no way the alleged facts could have taken place." 

She still tried to get 80% custody, making lots of random accusations--that we expose the kids to adult sexuality because one of the kids opened the door to the bathroom when a houseguest was showering, accusations that I was having sex in public with guests of my wedding when DH and I married--in other words, totally bizarre stuff. 

At the 11th hour, right as the case was going to be heard by a great judge, she agreed to a detailed 50/50 plan that included written communication only between the parents, special co-parenting counseling, therapy for her, and an agreement that she would not work in or volunteer in the school during DH's custody time--DH made serious concessions to get that and it was critical to the parenting plan working, as with the parental alienation transitions have been horribly stressful for the kids and our family, and with the threat of false accusations, it is very important to DH to have parenting time where mom is not a major influence. 

The day after she signed the settlement, she went to court to get an order saying she could work in the school, and the week before also got a DUI.  The court treated the DUI mildly, and the court said it could not interfere with her ability to get work (she has never been able to keep a job for more than a few months) and thus was changing DH's existing order to allow her to work. 

Last year, she worked a couple of days in the classroom, and it was horribly stressful for the kids.  SD9 came home each time sobbing, saying "I hate myself!  I want to kill myself! Don't touch me!" 

We have also heard from others that mom has been drinking more, even on mornings before school.  She is also living/housesitting in three homes, so the kids' lives with her is very unstable.  The hard thing is that when mom is having a more chaotic, harder time, the kids tend to insist they want to live only with her, do not want to be with us.  They feel like they need to prove their loyalty to her all the more.  But normally, this is only on transition days, which is very painful and challenging, but then after the kids throw fits and rant and rave about what they and their mom need and how it is all dad's fault they are not getting what "they" need, then they are totally in love with us, very cooperative and extremely willing to work through hard things, like they are so hungry for our more peaceful, consistent life that it is a huge relief to be with us... . but on that day they see their mom in the AM and is in the PM, they are just trying to prove their love to her by rejecting us.  I am just not sure if we can deal with this happening every day, for three reasons:  1) It is terribly stressful for the girls, and particularly SD9 who feels like she is betraying her mom or us by loving us... . but she cannot help it, so she turns the anger on herself; 2) it is terribly stressful for DH and I, who work on using good parenting techniques, etc., but in times of this level of stress every day, our happiness degrades dramatically, and then we are not sure we are really offering the kids more than mom would; 3) this will be terribly stressful on BPDmom, though she has no capacity for avoiding stress for herself--she tends to move toward the hardest, worst thing for herself, and then things explode. 

Part of me feels so angry and powerless that the school would hire her.  They know their is a history of her abusing my DH in the past, and if he was a woman, I feel this never would have been allowed to happen.  I feel angry that they do not see her for who she is, that there is poor communication so those school employees who do understand have no say.  I also feel upset with DH that since we started the custody litigation, he has been so careful to always be the "good guy" that no one knows the reality of the situation.  She litterally cannot be in the same room with us without exploding, and has threatened everyone close to the kids who cares about us with terrible things (false abuse reports, etc.).  How is it going to work to see her every day?  What makes this worse is that DH is on the school board, so he cannot really question the decision to hire her as he has a conflict of interest. 

Phew.  Not sure what to do or what our options are.  Support and feedback would really help. 

[newlymarried]

All I can offer is support. I am really sorry that your Skids are going through this. I know that it must hurt you to see them in pain. I want to that you for being a stabilizing force in their lives. 

[mamachelle]

ennie,

I'm sorry about this. yikes.

My kids don't know their teachers yet even so I assume this is a small school yes with no other class to transfer her to?

If you can transfer maybe you can say a transfer is in order since it's not a good thing for kids to be in classes with sibs or parents.

(twins get broken up et al)

Has Bio mom been able to hold a job for an entire school year in the past?

I'm thinking she may bail early if she can as it's going to be stressful for her.

Where is the classroom teacher in this? Is she a new teacher or someone you know?

mamachelle

[Ishenuts]

In our school system, a parent cannot be an aide in their child's class. If she needs a job, and an aide is the only option, can you ask that she be an aide, just not be associated with her own child's class?

Is there any recourse re: the alienation and the resulting behavior? I, too, have issues with my son on transition day. It hasn't gotten as bad as you have it, but I am always diligent about trying to connect with him on that day.

[david]

Document everything from the start.

If this were me, I would go to the principal and let him/her know exactly what I believe is going on and is not in the best interest of the child. I let them know of her drinking, etc... . EVERYTHING. All in as calm a manner as you can and always staying focused on the kids. I actually had it written out so I didn't forget anything. The principal tried to be as diplomatic as he could and eventually told me the things I was saying didn't make any sense. I replied, "that is the point I am trying to make." This was only about parent teacher meetings and having separate meetings. At first he refused. I went to the meetings and ex was there. It took the school 4 meetings before they realized who the problem was. After that, the school figured out how to have separate meetings. Eventually they had a meeting with me and began asking me how to deal with their mom.

Carry an audio recorder with you when you pick the kids up so you can have proof of the things she is saying with the children present. Family court may bend the rules about recording if it is in the children's best interest.

Is BPD mom in therapy or did she disregard the court order ? That needs to be addressed.

Also, when SD9 was younger did she have problems in the classroom. If not and problems begin then you can also point that out before it happens.

The documentation may be useful in court if that is the course needed. I think if enough documentation happens and you go to the school they may figure a way to resolve the situation without getting dragged into court.  Alway in a polite manner, of course.

My ex enrolled our youngest in CCD (religious education) classes and also volunteered as the teacher last year. They both were asked to leave before the end of the school year.

I would suggest that she be allowed to be an aide in another classroom, like ishenuts said, but not in SD9's. That may give the school a way out.

[momtara]

I think you should tape record all these things the x wife says and the kids say, just so you have proof.

It's so hard that the kids are being used this way.  I used to side with my mom even though she was nuts, because I felt sorry for her and knew my dad could take the pain.  So that's probably where they're coming from.  Plus, it hurts to have mom mad at you.  I'm sure they are pressured and their minds are screwed with.  I was older, too.  It's worse if you're young.

I don't know enough about how these things work to know what to do, but maybe a school therapist can help with the kids, so that they don't feel obligated to lie for their mom, and at the same time don't feel guilty or bad about telling the truth, and won't be alienated by their mom.

It's hard for some of us to deal with being hurt by our pbd spouses, so having a mom that turns on her kids must be very hard for them and of course they do what they can to get into her favor.  So this is tricky. 

I think that a dui, even if treated lightly, is still something on paper that can help you.

[david]

I also had a long conversation with the school counselor. I suggested she be at all meetings. She attended and I do believe she helped the others understand.

[ennie]

Thanks for all your suggestions .  Unfortunately, one of the problems for us is we have sort of already done all these things, and STILL they hire her, which is really hard. 

Mamachelle, I think this is a realistic possibility.  She has never been able to hold a job more than a month or two.  The only difference here is 1) she is doing it to upset DH, and that is a powerful motivator for her; 2) the people she wants to look good to most in the world is the people who know her as a mom--she REALLY wants to be seen as a good mom. That said, I still do not think she can pull it off.  Unfortunately, I am also not sure we can!

As to david's comments, these are all the reasons that our situation is totally prickly.  First, she was hire to be the special needs aid of a boy in SD9's class who LOVES her.  That is why she was hired.  That is where she shines--with people who are "victims," who need her.  Second, this school is all about keeping the kids with the same class their whole time.  There is one other class, and this might work, but it would be hard to get the teachers' support for this.  Third, talking to the principal is not an option. My DH is on the school board, and when we tried to talk to her, she said that DH has a conflict of interest and she cannot talk to him about it.  I tried calling her, and she called DH and said there is no way she can get involved in this.  She was the one who told DH, and says she could get in all kinds of trouble for that.  So it is a terrible prickly problem.  And the principal does know about the drinking, and BPD mom was still hired. 

As to going to court... . we spent all the money we have in court to get the plan we have now.  It was so stressful for the kids.  Part of the problem in litigation when there is alienation going on is it just adds fuel to the fire of the mom... . she tells the kids her story constantly, telling them that we are trying to take the kids away, that if they tell the truth she will kill herself, and they see her in such distress and blame it on dad.  Dad, on the other hand, follows the court order NOT to talk to the kids about litigation. In this case, this is even more so, because what he would be trying to prevent is what they would want, which is having mom in school all the time.  There is not the other story of "I want time with you too," because he does not want to work in the school too--he is a business owner.  So to the kids this would validate the story that dad wants to ruin mom. And mom exploits this, and tries to get them to advocate for her--thus the false allegations of sexual abuse.  The only reasons SD13 was willing to make false allegations was because she thought it would prevent her from being taken away from her mom. We have been through years of litigation just to get 50/50, which is what we already had!  So I am not sure DH would be up for that. 

I think that even if mom was in a different classroom, it would cause horrible stress for the kids.  Even seeing her once makes it hard, because the only thing mom wants to heear is how bad it is at our house.  On day one now, the kids have that story going, but the totally drop it once they are here for a day or two, because they love their lives here.  Litterally, SD13 writes "I love my life!" often, but coming from mom's, the story is "I hate my life!"  so it is really hard to imagine parenting kids who hate life every day.  Not to mention how hard it is to feel that way every day... . is that better for the kids than just living with a crazy mom? 

I think what is so hard about this is that we lack power.  That jThat whether we try to fight it, or see how it goes, or just relaive the terrible stress on the kids by letting them live with mom, it is hind of like a check mate in her game of power.  She agreed not to work in the school, she knows he does not want that and that is the only reasons he did not complete litigation and agreed to a settlement, so that is what she wants.  And now she has it, and she will use it to make the kids lives hell and our lives hell, because when life sucks, people want their mommy.  And otherwise, they become adults and live their lives and just be happy.  That is where she has power.  But the hard thing is where we have power is being happy and feeling good.  That is what we love, and if we engage at all on her terms that seems to go out the window.  There is probably a way to "win," but that might break up our marriage, cause the kids to make some terrible accusation, and be so stressful for them that we cannot stand to witness how hard it is for these kids.  Add to that the fact that they insist they want to live with mom, though are miserable with mom and happy with us.  Makes no sense.   But it also makes no sense for us to engage in a way that wrecks our happiness, which is what has happened in the past. In the past, I took on the legal battle, DH took on the communication battle, and we got pretty much eaten by the court.  I mean, we got what we wanted, but it cost so much money and energy and ultimately the court ordered settlement was immediately dismantled by the court under BPD mom's attack. 

So we are really considering going much slower and really being aware that we need to do this on our terms.  That it is not about wielding power over her, because she is far too squirrely for that to really be effective, but rather to act out of what makes us happy, knowing that our happiness always includes the girls' well being.  As someone said here, sometimes you lose.  But we will do some communicating, while not sacrificing our souls. 

[mamachelle]

ennie,

This sounds awful that the principal is so not understanding. The concept of keeping kids in same classes now undermines your SD's stability.

Theoretically mom will be in her class until junior high or high school if she is an aide for one student-- or is it just per grade level?

I would still scour school policy to see if there is any legal way to separate the 2 of them. Has your SD shown any objections to mom in the class ?  no kid wants mom in their class full time. ugg. My SS9 would throw a fit if me or bio mom was there every day. 

I guess at this point from my perspective it does not seem like there is much you can do directly but indirectly just letting the flow of the "bureaucratic" river take things where they go.  If you greet her with a smile and welcome her and act like its no big deal to the kids-- she will have much less fire to feed on. More likely she will call in sick as she is prone to do-- and lose the job on her own.

mamachelle

[david]

Does the special need boy's parents know of the DUI. Maybe the principal should be asked that question. Put her in the hot seat at the right moment.

Also, since she hasn't been able to hold a job for long this may be a matter of waiting for her to be removed. Yea, this is bs but it may play out for the best. Stay focused on the kids needs. I have become very good at listening and validating my kids. This has helped tremendously whatever their mom throws at them. Our youngest is 10 now and he was the easiest for xBPDw to manipulate. That was 5 plus years ago. At 10 he is starting to speak up and question things.

[NorthernGirl]

Ennie -- this all sounds so horrible for the kids, and for you and your DH.   

I can relate to your story on so many levels given what DH and I have been through with his kids.

You've had some good advice from others and I thought I'd add in a few suggestions:

* since this all may take some time, keep focusing on the kids. Listen to them. Hug them. Help them come up with coping strategies. We have learned that as trying as things were for DH's youngest, he has faired much better than his brother who never learned to talk about the challenges and who pretended all was fine. Even though it was hard hearing DH's youngest when he spewed out all the things his mother was saying and doing, the fact was that he was vocal and that was a good thing. Take some small comfort in the fact your SD's are talking about all of this.

* Remember that everything you say and do gets transmitted back to Mom. I'm guessing you already know this, but sometimes I don't think we use this as much to our advantage as we should. I think DH's ex gave up on some of her fights when she learned they weren't working to make our lives miserable. Are there fun things you or DH can be doing with the girls?

* Can your DH escalate this? If the principal says there is a conflict of interest, then can your DH push with some of his colleagues on the school board to help determine how this can be resolved. Someone higher up than the principal should be handling this if she feels she can't. There may be something written out of how conflicts of interest are handled, and if there isn't DH could push to say it should be written out and he would like to be a test case. Maybe they need to hire an arbitrator to handle the case - someone impartial to hear the facts and provide a recommendation?

Above all else, look after yourself so you have the energy to hug and do fun things with your DH and his children.   

[ForeverDad]

It sounds like the best you can do for now is document your Concerns.  Continue with your stance, that you're not advocating, encouraging or even okay with her actions.  You may not be able to do much now, but in time the issues will probably become apparent even if you don't get an acknowledgement.

My ex too seemed to bond better with the under-trodden, the disadvantaged, I've come to see it as her being able to have power or sway over those people, friends on her terms, to a certain extent she despised those who didn't 'need' her.

[ennie]

DH and I had a great talk about it over the weekend.  Finally.  With me being away and him being busy with work, we had not had the time.  What we decided is to focus on making ourselves happy, and to both have a journal over this time where we write to ourselves and each other about ideas, both for being happier and dealing with the situations.  Yes, keep it protected from the kids... .

He also told me that while he is not sure that he can do anything about this since he is on the school board, he DOES intend to work on and introduce a policy for the school in the future for dealing with aids in the class and school employees when there has been domestic violence or high conflict divorce for maintaining access for both parents while making sure that the victim is not driven from the school by the hiring of the abuser.  I love the fact that he put his energy into resolving this problem for others, and his way of communicating about this is so non-blaming and so sensible, in a way that I think will communicate so much more clearly what the issues are to the school board and principle than it would for him to "fight" his ex's employment. 

He was able to clearly articulate that while it might be a great job for someone who has had challenges in the past, if that results in excluding one parent from the school who has been active in the school, that is not good for the children or for the parents.  And that it is about supporting both of the parents, regardless of their gender and past issues, rather than excluding one (unless of course there is a court order requiring exclusion). 

The reality for us is that to go into full scale documentation for litigation mode is just not our style.  I am an attorney, but one who is dedicated to mediation.  Both of us in our recent talk communicated how devastating the litigation was for each of us, and that we are only now recovering emotionally.  Constant focus again on how we can win in court is just traumatic for both of us, and will only work if we do it in a relaxed way.  We are both very conflict adverse, me being more at ease with confrontation but not an attempt to coerce another irrational and unreasonable person.  That does not mean we will not do it if necessary, but we will prep a little now and wait until there is a felt need; otherwise, our lives become all about BPDmom's crazy actions, not about enjoying the moment and our lives.  Have you tried taping a peaceful conversation?  It is really hard to do discretely, and I think my energy needs to be focused on loving the kids, and like others were saying, really listening to them.  And DH and I need to focus on that with each other, supporting ourselves and each other in learning a less anxious way of dealing with the challenges that come with my husband's ex and his work life.  I feel like I have worked on that in my own work and life, but since his presence in my life, I feel constantly stressed, and that needs to change if I am to be a good step-mom in crises.  When I take the time to be at peace, I really do well with event the biggest challenges, letting the kids know that number one important thing is that I love them and who they are is okay, and who I am is okay, even when we differ or when things are hard.  In the past, when I spent the days while the kids were in school writing and obtaining declarations about their mom's problems, or documenting negative things, I could not hold that peaceful place with them or me or DH.  I wish I could do it all, but truthfully, I can't, and I am coming to realize that if I have to choose between winning and being happy, I choose happy.  I am not sure if that will support the kids more or less in the long run, but I have to do what supports me.  I wish DH was a person who could take the small happy actions along the way that protect the kids from the worst of their mom--communication instead of avoidance.  When we do that, it has been much easier.  But that is not who he is, and I am not up for being that main source of communication like I used to.  In a pinch, when needed, but not all the time.  So I am letting go of exerting the power I might have in favor of cultivating the peace of mind and acceptance that may make me a less stressed, easier parent and wife.  I am not saying we will not litigate later, but that we are not going to act like we are right now, beyond me preparing a very brief motion just in case (I am a planner, and having things organized reduces my stress level... . but obsessing about something months in advance increases it to unsustainable levels!). 

It is sort of like if you gossip about someone when you have had a stressful interaction with them, then next time you see them you are sort of on your guard, ready for them to do the hurtful thing again.  So you bring stress instead of love to them.  So it gets worse.  Whereas if you can deal with your uncomfortable feelings without projecting blame (my definition of what is harmful about gossip), then next time you see them you are more open instead of less.  I think it is more complicated with a BPD person, because she will endlessly manipulate the off-guard person... . but at the same time, being terribly defended is also easy for her to manipulate.  So it is more like being prepared, but as loving and independent of her drama as possible... . it really is just her imaginary world, not mine, and I do not care to make it mine. 

Thanks, all for your support.  Wish us luck!  I will keep you updated for sure! and I like NG's perspective, and MaMachelle's, that we have a little time here, so strengthening our love and fun with the kids (and each other) seems possible and more fun! I also respect the other views on documenting and influencing... . I was so there 6 years, 5 years, 4 years, 3 years, even 2 years ago... . but those years burnt me out!  These approaches got us a great parenting plan, that BPD ex scuttled by getting hired, but that is still good in other ways. I am really glad we invested in that, as now we have words that say BPD mom must be in counseling, and she is not, and other boundaries.   But it did not provide happiness... . and we need to really nurture that right now. 

[ForeverDad]

And probably a good policy to advocate is that if ex is hired and works in the children's classes, she can't mention anything about the family matters or about the other parent.  She should be required to keep a reasonably neutral and professional tone to her work.

[Waddams]

One thing I always tell my S9 is that when his mom pulls crap that makes him feel like he has to take mom or dad's side, I want him instead to take his own side.  Think about what he wants and to communicate it.

End result is a 9 year old boy that tells his mom to stuff it now, but that's between him and her!

[Matt]

Your approach sounds sensible.  Frankly I think if you made it clear to the school that this is not acceptable and that you will be looking for an attorney to deal with it, they might back down;  schools want to avoid the expense of litigation, and in this case I think you would have a good legal argument (but I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what the law is about this stuff).

But I admire that you're taking the big view and looking at how to be happy and do a good job with the kids.

[ennie]

And probably a good policy to advocate is that if ex is hired and works in the children's classes, she can't mention anything about the family matters or about the other parent.  She should be required to keep a reasonably neutral and professional tone to her work.

There is just no way to enforce or negotiate this.  Mom has no capacity for this discussion; she can scream epithets at us and walk away thinking we were abusive, and that she was "nice."  She has no capacity for self-reflection and no interest in making it easier for others... . but she can put on a good act.  The only impact of us asking this of her would be that she would constantly rage at DH and I about the request out of the hearing of anyone but the kids, and would find ways to accuse us of "not being professional."  If DH or I could talk to her about this stuff, or have any reasonable communication with her about it, she would not want to work in SD9's class and DH would not have a problem with her being in the class.  And the school will not enforce anything.  When there was a clear order stating that she was not to be in the school at certain times, she was allowed to be there when she wanted to, because they are very conflict adverse. 

[ennie]

One thing I always tell my S9 is that when his mom pulls crap that makes him feel like he has to take mom or dad's side, I want him instead to take his own side.  Think about what he wants and to communicate it.

End result is a 9 year old boy that tells his mom to stuff it now, but that's between him and her!

SD 9 used to be really good at that, and would be really honest with us and mom about stuff.  But it is complex because she is somewhat enmeshed with her older sister, who is totally enmeshed with mom.  SD13 has been willing to say she hates living with us and only wants to live with mom any time mom is having a hard time; she has done this since she was about 10, and at the time explained that she thought her mom would die if she was not there for her all the time.  She has since learned from mom that kids are not "supposed" to take care of mom that way, so she has internalized that cause and says that is what she wants when mom is struggling.  Right now, mom lives at two houses of boyfriends, I think is drinking, and is volatile emotionally... . so the kids are protecting her, which means SD13 wants to live with mom... . and SD9 is all about wanting SD13 to love her, as SD13 is now a teen and not as nice to her sister. After a few days with us, this stuff all evens out and the kids are really great kids.  But on transition days, SD13 feels she needs to scream that no-one is listening to her, that she WANTS TO LIVE WITH HER MOM, and that she hates it here!  Two days later, I find a little note saying stuff like, "I love my life!" and she is so cooperative and funny and fun to be around, and even nice to her sister.  But SD13 takes a lot of the anger she feels at her mom's house out on her little sister, and mom lets her do that, so SD9 is really scared to say anything that will upset mom or her sister. 

So what SD9 has started saying this year, at least since she started hearing her mom wanted to work at the school, is that she wants to live with mom.  She had a dream last time she was hear that there was a scary lizard monster with a man's body who was trying to kill her, and it was so scary... . and then she ran to her mom, and her mom told her that SHE was the monster, and it had a man's body because mom had eaten dad's insides and took his form and was using it as a disguise. 

To me, this says that SD9 is scared of mom, and that on some level she realizes that mom is getting she and her sister to project mom's problems on dad.  She will get it when she is a little older, but for now, she is just trying to figure out how to deal with the stress of mom and fear of what will happen when mom is in the class.  LAst year, she wanted me to do a project with her and I did.  It was a huge shoe scuplture, and she wanted to bring it to mom's house to show her.  Because I helped, mom became furious at SD9 over the project she initiated that made her so proud... . and she came back to our house full of self hatred, saying she wanted to die and hated herself.  So that is where she goes when mom is angry with her for doing fun stuff at daddy's house.  I just do not think that she feels it is an option to be honest with mom, so she changes her story to match mom's.  It is very hard to talk to her about, because mom is so convinced that we hate her and are saying bad things about her, and she tells the kids this so much, that any words remotely about mom have become triggers for the kids (since custody litigation). 

My approach is not to respond much to stuff SD9 says about mom or mom's house, except to make positive comments, so she keeps me in the loop more.  Then, I work on her learning how to communicate this stuff with people who are more safe, such as her sister and me and her dad, so that she can practice.  She will be able to do this with her mom one day, but now is not that day.  So I am focusing more on her in our communication, and less on weird stuff she tells me about her mom.  I cannot even suggest she talk to her mom about something without her telling her sister and her sister becoming enraged.  It has been very effective alienation in some respects; but without actually being able to alienate the kids from loving their dad or me... . but mom really has got them convinced that they cannot say anything negative to her, and that they should be totally secretive about anything related to mom. 

So SD9 is having mom nightmares; but what she says is that she wants to be with her mom more. 

[ennie]

Your approach sounds sensible.  Frankly I think if you made it clear to the school that this is not acceptable and that you will be looking for an attorney to deal with it, they might back down;  schools want to avoid the expense of litigation, and in this case I think you would have a good legal argument (but I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what the law is about this stuff).

But I admire that you're taking the big view and looking at how to be happy and do a good job with the kids.

... . which might work, except DH is on the school board, so he would have to leave or it would be a major conflict of interest for him!  This is where it gets so entangled... .

[ennie]

Here is an update... . basically, DH and I decided to do nothing, get SD13 a counselor (SD8 has one), and try to be happier. 

Then we found out a few days ago that BPD mom's offer of employment was rescinded because she could not clear the DUI from her records... . though the school knew she had it when they hired her.  So the problem went away... .

Which of course brought new problems... . mainly, mom furious and upset, manipulating the kids (particularly SD13) that if only she could get away from here to another state, all would be well. 

So SD13 has been flipping out at us every time she talks to her mom on the phone.  It is really hard.  Things are going good, peaceful, loving, then she talks to mom, and starts raging at us, saying all of mom's crazy stories about DH and I.  Tonight, I listened to her longer than I should have, she got really spun out and yelled a lot, and I finally lost it and just yelled, "Stop!  Stop being mean!"   

I had to yell it three times to get her to stop talking/yelling. 

One of the things she yelled in response to me saying, "I am angry at you, but I will not be mean to you or harm you,"  was that I had hurt her feelings plenty, that there were three things I did that really upset her, including dropping a cup in a sink once when angry, tugging her sleeve, and yelling once loud, not TWICE!  I think I said something like, "Um, maybe tomorrow we can talk about the three things you think I have done wrong in the past 6 years of me being your SM TOMORROW."  and she said, "FOUR!  It is FOUR things!" 

The hard thing for me is that she is so full of this story of mom's that she does not want me in her life, that I am [add lots of blanks and fill them in], and there is some way that if this felt true, I would be fine with that.  But it is not true, and that is what makes this so tricky.  I know lots of teens really do feel this way about their SM, but my SD13 does not.  So she rails at me, then in the middle of yelling about all the bad things her mom thinks in her own words ("IT IS NOT FAIR THAT YOU GET TO GO ON TRIPS AND MY MOM DOES NOT!), she will yell, "I love you!   It is not that I don't love you!  I just wish my parents could get along! Other kids divorced parents live in the same house, or on the same land! Why can't daddy and mommy get along?  Why do you have to be a middle person?  I just want my mom and dad to get along!" 

When I leave SD13 and DH is home and talking to her, about 30 minutes later she finds me and tells me she is sorry and she knows the way she expressed herself was mean, that she does not really feel that way... . and could I help her with a project, will I look at her whatever, and so forth.  She also hugged me when apologizing, and offered to help me with something.  When she asked for water from me at the end of the night, I said, "Look, we need to have a negotiation or conversation about boundaries and what we want my role to be.  It seems like you are really wanting me close when you want something from me or to show me something, but when I want something in return, you want to dismiss me.  It does not work that way.  If you want my help, I am going to have boundaries if you are yelling at me because it is not working out for you, and if I am helping, I am going to have a limit there. I can NOT help you, and then I do not need to ask anything of you about that.  But you cannot have it both ways."  "Yes, I know, ennie.  I really am sorry, and I really do get it."   "So right now,  you want water, so I am just going to pretend we have already had that conversation, and that you DO want me to help you ,that you are willing to work with my limits, and that we are good, and that you want me to get you water even if it makes me in a more parental role, and that is fine. We'll have the conversation tomorrow, okay?"  "Sounds great. Thanks." 

So I guess it is really emotionally confusing.  Mentally, I get it.  She is really angry at how hard her mom is making things right now.  She is also hoping that there is rightness in her mom's approach of "If you do not get what you want, rage and complain until you do."  She is hoping that the part of her that wants to do that will be stronger than DH and me, and she is furious when it does not work, because she is 13 and wants absolute power, and because there is a way that failing at that means mommy is wrong.  I get that 1) when you are 13, life seems terribly unfair, and it is; 2) Life is more unfair when you have a BPD mom who cannot get a job because of a DUI and she then blames everyone else and never takes on actually FIXING THE PROBLEM that is causing her to fail... . and 3) that it is even harder when you have a step mom who is not really willing to be manipulated by 13 year old rage, and instead says, "no."; and finally, life is tough when your dad is really stressed and not as present as he is usually. I also get that even if you get SOO angry at the stepmom who has boundaries, in my SD13's case, she trusts the combination of love and boundaries.  So in some odd way, the more she pushes at me, the more she loves me.  Hard to explain, but it sure feels true. 

Which puts me in a bind... . i want her to know I love her, and I also do not want to put a lot of time into someone who treats me that way.  It is hard because the things she loves to do with me are the very things that trigger her and mom's loyalty issues, because she fears she is disloyal, so she will get mad and put me down in those areas... . my natural response is, "Well, if you do not want me to do it, or cannot ask in a respectful way, then find someone to help you who is willing to work under those conditions... . because I am not, and I have no obligation here."  but that fits this BPD story of no-one loves you for you, everyone is out to get you, use you, no-one is reliable and loving.  SD13 is already struggling with that story. 

I think my approach will be to talk with her.  To explain that I like our relationship when we do fun stuff together... . last month we went on an epic hike together, I love helping her build this little cabin she is working on.  But it is important to me to care for myself, do things that feel good, be kind to me and her.  And when she is yelling and putting me down and naming all the mean things she can think of, it feels really bad to me.  So what I need is her making a commitment not to do that.  She can be as mad as she wants, she can feel as angry as she wants at me, but if she wants my help, she needs not to be mean.  "expressing yourself" does not feel mean.  And I am a pretty fair and discriminating judge of the distinction between mean and expressive.  And because it is my feelings, I get to choose if she is sounding mean or not. So if she can get it, this difference, and agree to commit to that, then I agree to be committed to helping with the cabin, and other projects as she sees fit to ask for my help.  If not, I will still love her and maybe we can have tea, but I do not want to be a work partner if she is willing to go to that mean place.  IF she does not feel she can make that commitment, because she is really angry at me, or at having me in her life, or for whatever truly understandable reason, then it is fine for her to get the help she needs from mom and dad.  It does not mean we are going to stop being friends, just that I need to stop putting myself in the situation of moving forward only to be dealing with her rage and anger out of the blue. 

The hard part is when she is with DH and I, she is mostly really loving (until she talks to mom)... . so she is excited, wants to work with me, we are working away and chatting, and then she talks to mom, and all of a sudden, she is raging.  PArt of this is just 13, not anything else... . part is having a mom who insists on total loyalty and who hates dad and SM, and is not afraid to communicate that to and in front of the kids.  Then If I even mention this... . "What happened?  You were fine, then you talked to your mom, then you are furious.  What occurred in that call to change things for you?"  "you are saying it is my mom's fault!  It is not her fault! she never says mean things about you!  I just did not tell you this earlier today because I was too afraid of you, since you are so mean!" 

It is hard to have to play the pretend game of not noticing what is triggering this in order to be able to talk with SD13 about this.  At any rate, I am completely exhausted, and really sick of this.  It has been a few months of hard transitions, every time sD13 saying how life would be great if only she lived with mom, and how mean and bad we are.  Just sick of it... . and SOO grateful that mom is not going to see them every day, because it would be WAY too much. I wish I could make a video of the before and after mom's calls... . but then we also do not do as well with the meanness... .

[david]

I have SS's. They are xBPDw's from her first marriage. They are all boys. I get what you are going through. What I can say is they are now all grown up. One is total NC with his mom. One is LC with their mom. Both have a good relationship with me. I was just down the shore with one last week with our two younger ones. We had a great week.

The other SS has substance abuse issues and doesn't talk to me or his brothers. He is enmeshed with his mom since mom enables him.

The two boys that I have a great relationship are the two that gave me the most grief when ex and I were together. The other one was distant and always went to his mom when he was younger. I didn't see it but I think the enabling started back then.

[Matt]

A few thoughts, Ennie... .

* I think it's great that you are putting most of your effort into working on these issues with SD13, not on expecting her mom to change.

* I also think it's great that you are getting her into counseling.

* It sounds to me like your husband is letting you do the heavy lifting on this.  Maybe he can step up and help more.

* I think it is good to talk openly about what is happening and what you see.  For example, if you see SD13 pretty consistently getting upset when she talks to her mom on the phone, you can say that - it's a fair observation to make - and challenge her to manage her emotions in another way, not by dumping them on you.  If she is aware this is happening, she may want to take a little time to herself after each call, to reflect on it - don't be around anyone til she has it together.  Or maybe go for a bike ride or some other physical activity.  A little more self-awareness on her part.

* Maybe after she has been on the phone with her mom, you can let her be for a while - don't be around her - let her process it before you interact with her.

* The big picture seems to be that she is struggling with how to manage stress.  This is a key age for that.  She is managing it by throwing fits - common in kids but not acceptable in adults.  She may decide to manage it by drinking or using drugs - effective but bad consequences.  Maybe this can be a topic for her counseling - ways to manage stress that are fair to others and not self-destructive.

* Her big issue - that her parents don't all get along - this is something she'll have to learn to accept.  She needs to come to peace with it.  Another good topic for counselilng.

* At the same time, maybe you and your husband can discuss ways to reduce the amount of exposure SD13 has to the conflict between parents.  If you or your husband ever talk about it, maybe you should keep it between yourselves.  If SD13 is getting it only from her mom, maybe your husband - directly or through his lawyer - shoudl let SD13's mom know that it is not acceptable and if it continues you will suspend the phone contact for a while.

[ennie]

Matt---I am always so grateful for your perspective!  

The awareness that SD13 is dealing with learning how to manage stress is so wise.  Yesterday that slipped my mind!  I often deal with her most intense behavior by setting a boundary, but with the words "if you are really not feeling good inside, you van have a cup of tea or take some time by yourself" and encouraging her to take care of herself rather than yelling at me or her sister, which makes her feel worse and us feel worse.  She is super self aware and is able to take what I say and go take time and come back feeling good--we then have a "do-over."  

Also, the idea of giving her some "processing time" after a call with mom is really great.  The hard thing is that mom will talk to her for hours, has no sense of boundaries, and then SD13 becomes enraged when interrupted.  BPD mom got into the parenting plan a phrase that says the kids can call her when they want, within reason, and so she things that means she has the right to talk to her kids as long as she wants at any time, and has this story that any time place and manner restrictions are horrible infringements on that right... . and when talking to mom, SD13 believes mom's rule.  So what triggers the altercation starts with DH saying, "Time to end the conversation."  The more dysregulated mom is, the more SD13 wants to interact with her, and the more mom has no boundaries and gets furious when SD13 says she needs to end the call... . the more it fuels the outburst.  So it is tricky.  SD13 never wants to call her mom when mom is regulated.  Just when there is crisis.

As to DH leaving the heavy lifting to me, that is true and not true.  Here at BPD family, I am often bringing my challenges and coming from a somewhat self-centered perspective, and so as not to write for ten page I am not describing what DH is doing, and he is doing a lot and really has worked on parenting stuff.  While the blow-up happened when DH and I were both with SD13, the things leading up to it happened on one of few days I was alone with the kids.  And DH did a lot of the communication with SD13.

In general, SD13 stress and her taking it out on others comes up when DH or I am alone with her and she has contact with mom, particularly if mom is having a hard time.  The stress I think is around guilt that she is having a good time with us and getting what she wants, and then she speaks with mom who often feels like her life is terrible.  Partly, she is feeling that she needs to agree with mom to be loyal, I think, but also I think she feels bad that she got caught up in the fun and forgot about her mommy.  

DH is the main person to have alone time with the kids.  However, this summer he had a lot of work stress and responsibilities (he owns a company) and I had the kids more than normal (still less than half of the time).  This has lead to me creating more firm boundaries, and the kids know some of this.  I think with SD13, part of what is happening is that she is old enough to understand that some of our negotiation (which we do not do around them, but she gets snippets) is around me wanting to have clear agreements and DH NOT assuming I can do childcare without an agreement or negotiation.  I think SD13 has been feeling close to me, and she takes this as me not wanting her around.  I find that lots of step-kids "not liking" their step parent often has at its root feeling not liked or wanted by the parent, and though I know SD13 knows I love her, it is also a complex relationship. She also did not get as much quality time with dad this summer, and resents that.  

DH and SD13 and me and SD13 have had really clear conversations about this, where SD13 has said, "When I staid home and we had the agreement that I would not bother you while you were working, I felt like you did not want me around and it really hurt my feelings.  It was not how you said it, though you were grumpy, it was that you did not want me there."  I have been able to say that I really hear her, that I love her and that I am really sorry to hurt her, and that it is true that there are some times that I want to be alone, and we can share that quiet space if she does not need me, but if she does, then I do need to be alone sometimes.  Her mom is not that way--always with and not with the kids at the same time.  So it is hard to hear this clarity--sometimes I do not want to be with you.

I think this is further complicated by the fact that SD13 is "not allowed" to feel close to me or hurt by me in her relationship with her mom... . it is very important to mom to believe that SD13 does not feel close to me and does not like me, when the opposite is true.  So when SD13 is feeling hurt, she tells her mom I am mean, and mom adds a whole story that I am the ogre, that I am getting in the way of SD13 and dad (not true, but a typical and believable story) so the water gets totally muddied... . and this summer, dad WAS less emotionally available than normal due to stress, and I was less available due to needing more time to myself, so this all reinforces the mom story and the waters are further muddied.  

Last evening, DH had some great talks with SD13--kept his cool, set boundaries, and was great.  I think the tricky thing yesterday was that the kids were with me during the day, and SD13 was really touchy after having seen her mom the first day of school and her mom being really upset, and she and I had some negotiations about me buying her stuff that went well but with me setting boundaries around her teen outbursts... . basically letting her know she had to ask nice to get stuff from me.  So then she spoke with mom and got to vent about that frustration of having to negotiate with me when her mom and dad just do it for her... . and mom raged about me, so SD13 felt more entitled to make it my fault.  

I think part of what I am realizing is that DH and I need to be much more on the same page about this stuff if I am going to have the kids one day a week by myself.  Given who I am, I am not willing to be manipulated by mean behavior.  When kids yell at me or say rude things (as many teens do from time to time), my response is basically that this does not work to get my cooperation.  I just make it ineffective.  You want me to do something, ask nice, figure out what I need to make it work for me... . I want you to do something, same rule applies unless it is just something that needs to be done (I would feed you no matter what if I am the only parent there, and kids need to do some things too no matter what).  But lots of stuff is optional.  But if DH will put up with way more whining and bad-mouthing, and this is mom's style, too, then I am going to be seen as mean and uptight by comparison.  

Anyway, matt, your suggestions are really helpful.  I feel like much of what we are doing is along these lines.  I think that one thing that often gets missed in the stereotyping about step-parent/bioparent roles is that if you live with someone most of the time, you have to work out your relationship with them, not just with your mom and dad.  At moments, SD13 feels like she does not like me and wishes she did not have to deal with me.  But she does, because here I am.  But she also feels like she totally loves me and looks up to me and thinks I am great.  I wish her mom could support her in figuring out how to get what she needs in our relationship by negotiating with me... . she is old enough, willing to express her feelings, and trusts me.  but that does not fit mom's story.  So yes, there are ways DH could step up more, but also, if she wants to have alone time with me and have me do things for her, I will have limits and that is that.  I will describe in another post how this worked out, as it seems good.

[ennie]

How it worked out this morning... . all pretty well, I think. Sorry for the long backstory--home someone reads it!

So I am not sure that I mentioned that how I got involved in the fray with sD13 last night was that I had her and her sister during the afternoon, and I was about to buy her stuff and we were in the store when she scratched her sister so deep she took out a chunk of skin.  I got them to go outside and found out that both sisters felt it was a mutual thing, not just SD13's fault.  So I told them I would but the stuff, but they needed to keep it together in the store, and if they could not, they could wait in the car. I said this calmly and let SD13 know that I knew it was not only her fault, but that I did not want to shop with them if they could not keep from harming each other in public.  SD13 was okay with that, but at the last second, launched into a teen fury.  "Whatever! Why is it always my fault!  You always blame me for everything!"  She was yelling this and saying other rude things.  My response was, "yelling at me is not an effective way of getting me to buy you things."  and we went to the car, and I let them know I was not going to do it. 

Then SD9 said, "But what about my thing?  I was not mean."  And I said, "That's true.  I will go buy your thing." So I went in and thought, well, SD13 needs these things for school, and DH will just have to get them later, so I will buy them and not give them to her unless she can figure out a way to be reasonable with me. 

When I returned, SD13 apologized for freaking out (her words) and let me know it was her and not me, that I was nice, and that she realized that I was not being mean by wanting her and her sister not to fight physically in the store.  When we got home, we had a great negotiation about what it would take for her to pay back the energy the altercation took and time it took to earn back the books.  She did twice as much as I asked, and we had a playful exchange where I presented the stuff as presents.  Things were good, hugs all around.  Then she got on the phone with mom, and within 20 minutes, told me that she really actually thinks I am terrible, had to deal with me blaming her for everything all day, does not want me to parent her in any way ever, that she was lying when she said she was okay with negotiating and was really afraid to express any real feelings to me, that she does not want to have to deal with me, etc., plus other hurtful personal things, bringing up everything I have ever done that she things is bad, which was three things in the past 6 years. 

The hard part is, I think this is not true. If it was, the answer is for me to parent less (I notice that she sees me saying "I am not going to buy this just because you become upset with me" is "being a parent," whereas buying it for her with no boundary is not parenting... . ).  I think the truth is that it is hard for her to control her temper at 13, and that she feels bad that with me, she is learning how to do that and that she does love me.  This makes her feel guilty with mom, but good with me.  The more she trusts me, as we respect each others' boundaries, the harder that is on her relationship with mom.  The good thing here is that I think this means she is integrating more, as before she was just a different person at each home.  But trying to figure out how those two SD13s go together is hard for her. 

But analysis aside.

So she apologized for being mean at the end of the day, in a sincere way. 

This morning, I took the stuff I got her for school and put it away somewhere else. DH and I talked about this this morning, and agreed this was what we wanted to do, and that if it came up, we would both be on the same page.  When she asked for it, DH and I let her know that when she said that she was just faking negotiating and just being nice to manipulate me to get her the stuff, but really was totally coerced by me, that undid the deal.  If she was just saving the mean for later to slam me with it, that is not an honest negotiation, and I am not willing to get her stuff if that is how she treats me, period.  Both because I do not want to be treated that way and if I gave her stuff when she is mean then it gets me more of that behavior, and because I do not want to model that for her, that you should let people treat you bad and feel like you have to give them things to make them stop.  I told her I was open to negotiating, that we did not have much time this morning but could talk tomorrow, and if she could think of anything that might change my mind, she should go for it.  She gave me money for it, and I said, "that does not deal with my problem."  She then said, "Right now, I feel really angry at you and I do not think I should have to give you anything to get my stuff.  I already paid back energy earlier, and I apologized, and that should be enough."  I listened, and said, "Right now, the way you are expressing yourself to me is awesome.  I get you are angry.  If I am getting you stuff, I want to be treated respectfully, even if you are mad, like how you are treating me right now, and I will do my best to do the same for you.  I get that you do not have a problem at this moment with how you acted last night.  But I do.  And I am the person you are negotiating with.  If you, to be true to yourself, do not want to do any more to get your stuff from me and this means you do not get the stuff, that is totally within your power.  At thirteen, this is an area you have power, and I support you being true to yourself.  I also need to be true to myself, and it would not feel good to me to give you the stuff when you told me that all the stuff you said in our negotiation was fake, and when you are willing to be that mean.  I am not your mom or dad; I am under no obligation to provide for you.  I love you no matter what, but that does not mean I must buy you things or do things for you.  That is the gravy, and it has to feel good to me as well as to you." 

Her dad then suggested that she could just apologize for treating me poorly last night and tell me that it was not really true that she was lying the whole time... . and I said, "I am hearing that savanna does not feel she was lying during our negotiation, but that she is feeling she has done enough and is angry at me right now, so does not want to do more apologizing, and I want to support her in being true to herself." DH asked, "Is that true?" and SD13 said, "Yes."  I said, "So we are at an impasse, and that is okay.  You are doing really great at dealing with this right now, SD, and I am confident that we can figure out a solution that works for both of us.  I am proud of you."  And she shook my hand on it. 

Then we went to the car with DH, who was taking them to school and SD9 wanted to hold my hand up there and seemed really to feel great about the whole thing.  When we got to the car, SD13 was totally excited about a hat I bought, wanted to see it, wanted to see it on me, all lovey and kind and sisterly with me.  Totally open and good with me. 

I think there is a weird way that this all was really empowering for her in the right way.  And for me, too.  So SD13 did not get the stuff, but she got HERSELF, and I got me, and we are good.  I just feel really willing to EVOLVE, and so happy that she really is, too.  I feel like the hard stuff with mom really calls forth in both kids and me, but especially SD13, an urgency around learning and growing and not just assuming we know how to be already.  SD13 said this morning, "I do not know how to do this.  I offered you money, that was not helpful.  I apologized, and now I do not want to do that more.  But I am not sure what to do next."  I let her know I was also not clear on that one.  She was not being mean or dramatic, totally authentic.  "Not sure where to go from here."  To me, that is the great thing about step parenting/childing under duress... . that you have to be creative, because there is no map. 

[ForeverDad]

Things were good, hugs all around.  Then she got on the phone with mom, and within 20 minutes, told me that she really actually thinks I am terrible, had to deal with me blaming her for everything all day, does not want me to parent her in any way ever, that she was lying when she said she was okay with negotiating and was really afraid to express any real feelings to me, that she does not want to have to deal with me, etc., plus other hurtful personal things, bringing up everything I have ever done that she things is bad, which was three things in the past 6 years. 

The hard part is, I think this is not true.

Of course it is not true.  I've seen it first hand with my ex's sister.  Back in the early days of my marriage before it imploded, we would visit her sister and she would be talking bad about us.  By the time we left she agreed we weren't bad and the others that had convinced her were wrong.  Next visits, same story, over and over.  She kept getting 'reset' by the problem family members.  She could not make and hold fast to her own judgments for very long.

I'm sure there's a name for it but, briefly, SD13 doesn't have a good grasp of reality, she is too easily influenced by others and she's like a leaf blowing in the wind, moving wherever the wind blows.  You reason with her, she sees your logic and acknowledges it.  Then her mother steps in and convinces her otherwise.  You'll get this endless see-saw back and forth until her own personal sense of right and wrong, true and false, are developed and become her own inner compass of reality.

In short, she needs to learn how to trust her observations, reason in a balanced way for herself, withstand her mother's negative influence and stick to her convictions of right and wrong, observed reality versus perceptions.

She is torn between worlds and is all over the map.  She needs to develop stability and consistency in her feelings and convictions.  This won't be accomplished quickly.  Perhaps her having written reminders and pointers in her own words might help her to review her feelings and cognition after any problematic communication?  Would a counselor or therapist help her see the situation better?  (I would expect mother to oppose and sabotage it of course.)

[mamachelle]

Hey Ennie,

I guess first I want to say that I am so glad that the Mom as Aide in the classroom issue is over. I imagine, other than the temp fallout, this is a very good thing.

I think ForeverDad has pretty much hit the nail on the head above. In my non psychologist but I play one on TV mom mode-- I think this "emotionally labile" behavior of your SD13 is altering her perceptions to the point where I think she needs help.

As Matt mentioned too, anxiety is huge in all this. I just want to add in that using Behavior Therapy techniques might help in the immediate real life situations that keep happening. Whenever you recognize a pattern I think there is hope that you can step back and see some solutions.

The hard part is when she is with DH and I, she is mostly really loving (until she talks to mom)... . so she is excited, wants to work with me, we are working away and chatting, and then she talks to mom, and all of a sudden, she is raging.  PArt of this is just 13, not anything else... . part is having a mom who insists on total loyalty and who hates dad and SM, and is not afraid to communicate that to and in front of the kids.  Then If I even mention this... . "What happened?  You were fine, then you talked to your mom, then you are furious.  What occurred in that call to change things for you?"  "you are saying it is my mom's fault!  It is not her fault! she never says mean things about you!  I just did not tell you this earlier today because I was too afraid of you, since you are so mean!" 

It is hard to have to play the pretend game of not noticing what is triggering this in order to be able to talk with SD13 about this.  At any rate, I am completely exhausted, and really sick of this.  It has been a few months of hard transitions, every time sD13 saying how life would be great if only she lived with mom, and how mean and bad we are.  Just sick of it... . and SOO grateful that mom is not going to see them every day, because it would be WAY too much. I wish I could make a video of the before and after mom's calls... . but then we also do not do as well with the meanness... .

I would actually use these phone calls and set up ways with her to cope (coping for both you and her and DH and little sis) like:

-after phone call SD13 goes to her room for cooling off for 30 minutes and journals or reads or something with door open

-during/after phone call ennie goes for a long walk or even leaves the house if this is feasible

-immediately after phone call DH takes walk with SD13 so she can process/yell/share and not further damage the r/s with the family each time.

Let her contribute and come up with coping help. You don't have to focus on her words but on her behaviors and where she is in physical space of your household immediately after the call. There are probably areas which are higher traffic that should be avoided immediately after a call like a den or kitchen. Also if you are worried about self-hate or harm  then having her alone may not be good either.

Even if SD13 is in denial this is a trigger. Each incident just causes her further distress. It is a trigger and she needs to understand that. She needs to start recognizing her own patterns on transition days. This will take time.

I have found that gently talking through these things with the kids and reinforcing that you are aware even as they deny does work.

With my SS9 and 10 there are certain TV show episodes of iCarly that used to set them off. I know it sounds nutty, but we would just gently say, hey-- every time this episode comes on you get wacky-- so let's not watch it or you guys deal with it.

With my DD14 and 16, there have been issues with certain friends that provoke them. Especially DD14 who kept getting re-involved with 2 problematic friends that were constantly dating and breaking up and doing this push/pull with her. We just kept letting her know that we saw a "pattern" and making her aware.

Again with SS9 there was a friend that so "excited' him that just mentioning his name would provoke bad behavior and anxiety.

It sounds like, as usual, you and DH and your step kids are in good communication and you are doing a good job. 

 mamachelle

[Matt]

During the school year - or maybe any time - surely a two-hour phone call with her mom is not a good idea, especially on school nights.  It's pretty clearly causing problems.

If you and your husband can work together on this, and decide on the right boundary - like maybe 20 minutes max on school nights, 45 on weekends, for example - then just set that boundary for both kids - not blame for the past but how things will work better going forward - seems like there must be a reasonable solution.  (Infinity is not a boundary.)

Don't worry about what the court order says.  Do what is reasonable and will work.

I have no such rules, because it usually isn't a problem.  If their mom calls during dinner, and they take the call (S15 and D16) I give them a bad look and they get the message, but it's not a big deal.  Sounds like it's become a huge big deal for you guys - if you had a time machine you should go back and nip it in the bud! - but the best you can do is set reasonable limits now and don't argue about it - just establish the rule and live with it and see how it works.