Friends? anyone see this also

[Parents! Get help here!]

My DD18 has been struggling with this for some time and it is keeping frineds.  She is very outgoing and does not have any problems meeting friends but it seems that she makes friends, gets excited about a new group of friends and then this fizzles out after awhile.  We sat and talked for a long time yesterday as she was very upset about this and she said she was trying to figure out what she might be doing wrong.  She talked to her T about it also and we really couldn't find anything. Here are some scenario's. I am hoping someone might find some insight to share with me:

1) DD has friends in high school 9 & 10th grade.  They drink and smoke pot all the time.  She partook occassionally but drinking or smoking made her anxiety worse so she stopped.  She was away from them for most of 11th and all of 12 grade and has tried to rekindle the friendships but they still just smoke and drink so she doesn't want to hang out with them.

2) DD made friends in college.  Seemed like a nice group of kids however there was a lot of drama in the group which dd couldn't deal with.  It was a few girls and two boys. DD became very friendly with one of the boys (only friends) and one girl didn't like this so she caused lots of drama about it.  Told Dd she didn't like her being so friendly with him.

3) DD made a new group of friends in college.  Things were great and she was actually interested in one of the boys and they sort of started dating.  He has some major emotional issues caused by PTSD and due to this he does not drive, neither do any of the other friends.  We live quite far from them so over the summer they have only gotten together twice.  DD thought they were all going to have this great summer together.

4)  DD has a group of friends from camp from when she was younger.  They get together periodically but DD says she likes getting together with them once in a while but her interest are different then theres.  DD loves politics, literature, history and she feels like all they want to talk about is shopping and clothes so she doesn't feel a real connection with them anymore.

I have encouraged her to joing some groups this upcoming school year.  Maybe a book club, a GSA or a political group and also that she may need to find a few different groups of friends and shouldn't expect one group to fill every need she has. 

Does anyone see a pattern or maybe some insight into this.  DD is a very good friend and I am wondering if her expectations are just to high.  Any suggestions would be great too.

Griz

[griz]

My DD18 has been struggling with this for some time and it is keeping frineds.  She is very outgoing and does not have any problems meeting friends but it seems that she makes friends, gets excited about a new group of friends and then this fizzles out after awhile.  We sat and talked for a long time yesterday as she was very upset about this and she said she was trying to figure out what she might be doing wrong.  She talked to her T about it also and we really couldn't find anything. Here are some scenario's. I am hoping someone might find some insight to share with me:

1) DD has friends in high school 9 & 10th grade.  They drink and smoke pot all the time.  She partook occassionally but drinking or smoking made her anxiety worse so she stopped.  She was away from them for most of 11th and all of 12 grade and has tried to rekindle the friendships but they still just smoke and drink so she doesn't want to hang out with them.

2) DD made friends in college.  Seemed like a nice group of kids however there was a lot of drama in the group which dd couldn't deal with.  It was a few girls and two boys. DD became very friendly with one of the boys (only friends) and one girl didn't like this so she caused lots of drama about it.  Told Dd she didn't like her being so friendly with him.

3) DD made a new group of friends in college.  Things were great and she was actually interested in one of the boys and they sort of started dating.  He has some major emotional issues caused by PTSD and due to this he does not drive, neither do any of the other friends.  We live quite far from them so over the summer they have only gotten together twice.  DD thought they were all going to have this great summer together.

4)  DD has a group of friends from camp from when she was younger.  They get together periodically but DD says she likes getting together with them once in a while but her interest are different then theres.  DD loves politics, literature, history and she feels like all they want to talk about is shopping and clothes so she doesn't feel a real connection with them anymore.

I have encouraged her to joing some groups this upcoming school year.  Maybe a book club, a GSA or a political group and also that she may need to find a few different groups of friends and shouldn't expect one group to fill every need she has. 

Does anyone see a pattern or maybe some insight into this.  DD is a very good friend and I am wondering if her expectations are just to high.  Any suggestions would be great too.

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[musicfan42]

I had the exact same issue at the age griz. It really is just a normal part of growing up.

I was very outgoing at that age-desperate for approval really and that actually put some people off. If anything, I would say your daughter needs to tone her eagerness down a bit... to have other interests aside from just friends. Friends come and go, they're really not the be all and end all of life so could you get her interested in her academics, hobbies, sports etc? Things that she can do on her own that don't require external validation. This would help build up her self-confidence. I would just word it in a nice way-say that friends are great to have but that it's good for her to do things by herself too-set her own goals, have some of her own hobbies, be her own person.

[griz]

thanks musicfan:  i guess part of the problem is also that DD does not drive.  Too afraid just yet so it really limits her activities depending on friends.  She loves to work out and go to the gym but we do that together (her and I),  not very good at sports.  She seems to do things on her own but I think she feels lonely.  In her mind she seems to think that the whole world is out having a great time... . all but her.  I think you are right.  She really needs to build her self-esteem and self confidence.  I think your point about external validation is right on target.  Does she value herself based on how many friends she has? 

Thanks,

Griz

[js friend]

Hi Griz,

Muscifan said the very thing I was going to say about your dd finding her own validation.

I think it is important that your dd does this griz so she develops her own self worth and knows she is a valued member of  society.

Ive been telling my dd that she is valued from she was very small because she has always seemed pretty shy and timid, and I have noticed the lack of friendships again since she was very small.

AND in answer to your question to musicfan my dd does see her base her worth on how many friends she has. If she doesnt have a call or text for a few hours, or if her phone is switched off (rarely) and there are no missed calls or texts then she will get upset.

Thinking of it, the ones who have stuck by my dd18 are the ones who made friends with her and not the other way around. 

The ones where she has tried her hardest to get fully accepted in the group by another person are the ones that that burnout very quickly dont seem to last. ... . Over time I think my  has just stopped trying now to make new friends for the fear of rejection . These days she is the one who will begin to withdraw from a group first   I can see how lonely she is, but even having gd isnt making her want to go out and make friends.

A few years ago I found some papers which dd had printed out and hidden under her bed... . The title  was "How to be popular." ... . mentioned things like, be approachable, smile, be helpful, be interesting. all useful ideas... . anyway at the end it  said... . the best advice is to just be yourself... . which is great advice,

But i dont think my dd even sees herself as being likable.

[musicfan42]

You're welcome griz

Yes, I think that your daughter values herself based on the number of friends she has-that she values popularity very highly. If people liked me, then I felt great whereas if they didn't, I felt awful... my mood would actually be affected by it. I suspect that the same thing is occurring with your daughter... that she can't feel good about herself without having that external validation.

Is she on social media like Facebook? I think that social media is really unhelpful for adolescents as it does tend to give the impression that everyone is out having a great time 24/7. I'm not on social media as I think it's really fake... people just post photos from nights out/holidays etc... they're not posting photos when they're just having a normal day, studying in college or working etc etc.

I think that your daughter is struggling to find a sense of identity-that she's trying on different types of identities by hanging out with different groups of people. I think that she may be acting like a chameleon-basically being over-influenced by what other people are doing as opposed to what she herself is doing. That if she's with the girls talking about clothes, then she'll talk about clothes with them and mimic them basically. Or if she's with the friends drinking and smoking, then she'll do the same. You get the idea. I think that none of these friendships are working out for her because she's changing her identity so rapidly. I was going to say that she gets bored with one identity and then tries another one on for size but I think it's more that she's uncomfortable with who she is as a person and wants to be someone else... anyone else but herself.

If I'm going to be really blunt, I think that she needs to become more comfortable with herself... . only then will she find that her friendships work out over the long-term. It's hard to keep up acting like a chameleon over the long-term... it's really only something that works over the short-term. To go all DBT on you, it's really a maladaptive coping mechanism-that it makes her feel better about herself temporarily but doesn't work over the long-run.

I think that your daughter's eating issues may stem from low self-esteem. I was a bit of a nerd at school and thought that losing weight, changing my appearance etc would get me noticed... . that I would then become a cool, pretty, popular girl. I was brought up as "the good girl" and I'd think "but I don't want to be "the good girl"... I want to be the bad girl". I've read your posts on your daughter before and I've wanted to comment because I can relate to all of it so much. I was the exact same at that age.

You mention in your last post that she loves to work out and go to the gym. That's great but I guess the issue I would have with that is that it's all about external appearances... . how she looks. You said before that she feels that people don't like her if she is heavier whereas they do when she's thinner. I can understand where she is coming from there but it would be better if she was working out for herself... because she herself wanted to as opposed to trying to impress other people. I think that she needs to get back to academics, to actual skills... to learn that it's not all about appearance or popularity... that she can validate herself through her intelligence... through what she does as opposed to just who she knows or what she looks like. It's nice to be well-liked and look good but they're shallow things... she needs long-term goals really... . something that will last basically.

Does your daughter do DBT? There is an emotional regulation section in it that would be helpful for her right now. Definitely the "opposite action" skill to deal with her fear of driving. And the "MASTER" skill to work on goal setting. There is a skill called "build positive experiences" that may help her too-that it may help her learn that she can create the life she wants... that she doesn't need to think that everyone is out there having a great time but her... . that she can do it too.

[griz]

Yes, Yes and Yes to everything said.  I am not sure how do get her to feel good about herself.  We have always been a family full of praise, very accepting  not sure where I went wrong.  She does DBT and really tries to use the skills.  I never thought about applying it to driving but that is a good idea.  She does as you said change her likes and dislikes to fit others.  That has always bothered me but it makes sense that she tries anything to make sure people like her.

J:  Funny I actually found something similar in my DD room once.  She was making a list off the internet of things she could do to make her popular. 

Gee for so long I thought I was doing thing right... . makes me sad

Griz

[PyneappleDays]

Yes she has lost and/or gone through so many friends.  It's because most of her friends have surpassed her, they've gone on to work, or some type of Post-Secondary.

I've tried to encourage her to get in a group (she always thinks I mean therapy) or church activity.  She always phones me up asking why so and so won't talk to her anymore.

And there's the other problem the people she attracts are they’re ones you'd wish she'd leave alone.

PyneappleDays

[musicfan42]

I don't think that you've done anything wrong griz! I've read your posts and you seem like a great mother to your daughter-you took her to an eating disorder specialist, you learned DBT skills yourself in order to help her etc. So be gentle on yourself. It's not your fault that your daughter doesn't feel good about herself however I understand that as her mother, you want to help her and probably feel helpless/powerless looking at her in emotional distress... wanting to fix it etc.

[lbjnltx]

Accomplishing what we think we cannot builds our self esteem

[heronbird]

Griz,

Sounds like you are describing my dd. She has same  scenarios.

She has different types of friends some bad, go out like drinking, sleeping around etc

Then she has a couple of really nice good friends, but yet they have had to be really really patient with dd, they have had to cope with her sudden mood swings and keep forgiving her, they seem to care.

If one of them does not text dd back for a few hours dd hates her, she wont meet or answer the phone to her.

They seem to get the wrong messages from people dont they.

[griz]

Accomplishing what we think we cannot builds our self esteem

This will be a good place to start I think.  DD asked about 6 weeks ago to join a local gym and get a personal trainer.  We looked at the gym and decided to do this together. (no personal trainer for me).  She offered to pay her half of the fee.  So we joined and have been going every other day.  Last night on the way home she told me that her PT has to change her routine as she has made so much progress over the past few weeks.  This was the perfect seque into accomplishing something we thought we couldn't.  DD has never been good a working out but sticking to it and pushing through the tough days she has seen accomplisment.  She was smiling ear to ear over how well she has done and so we discussed how this was about her, something she likes to do, a goal that was set and being reached and how good she feels.  And most importantly that this was not about anyone else.  I think this will be a good starting point for working on her self esteem.

Thanks for all of your great advice, I keep rereading it so I don't miss anything. 

Well, I won't see you for a bit.  DD and I are actually leaving for a 6 day vacation tomorrow morning.  Just the two of us and another mom and daughter (dd's friend since 2 and her mom).  Dh and my older daughter will be home together which will be good bonding time for them.  So off we go... . DD, me and our skills. 

Griz

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

What a great opportunity for your and your D from the gym. Hoping the vacation goes will for you. All of this growing up - plus the extra work needed to manage the BPD piece.

qcr  

[twojaybirds]

Hey Griz,

My dd 19 is the same BUT this is what I came to discover:

She was the creator of the drama that she claimed to dislike about friends (so I think they might of 'dumped' her not vice versa)

She used lack-of-transportation as lack-of-friends excuse but now she has a car and it hasn't changed at all

She claims old friends are still doing the same things and she has moved on/doesn't have stuff in common (however I found out that they are moving on/maturing doing different things so I think she is the one who is still emotionally young and doesn't fit in anymore)

My dd is also a great friend and would give the shirt-off-her-back however to the extreme of it being a boundary issue and hence my guess is there are boundary issues with her friends.


I know that the BPD also results in thinking that YOU or THEM or HIM or THIS CLUB will be the thing that will make them happy/feel satisfied etc  but when it or that friendship doesn't then onto the next thing looking for their 'emotional cure" (if you will) through yet another.

It is painful to watch.   She has a good friend from college.  They met their last year and will be roommates this year.  I believe that will end their friendship as she burnt through a myriad of roommates last year as a freshman. 

[Someday . . .]

Hi Griz, after reading everyone's remarks about self esteem, I thought that I would mention something that I just got (and was hoping that my own dd25 would listen to it).  It is a 6 CD set of Self Compassion by Kristen Neff.   I recently heard that the way out of guilt and shame (which is a recurring theme for someone w/BPD) is through self compassion.  I've listened to almost all of the tapes and have found them to be quite encouraging and I have come away feeling soothed and positive.   When someone feels good about themselves (self esteem), and likes who they are, it comes across to others as an attractive (self assured) quality . . .maybe the self compassion CD's would give her that edge (?).   Just a suggestion . . .

[musicfan42]

Griz-I think that some of your daughter's friends may be jealous of her too.

In example 2, that girl was obviously jealous of your daughter talking to that guy. Your daughter is only 18 so she's trying to fit in and trying to appease everyone but really she should have just told that girl to back off, that she was friends with him and that was it, like it or lump it. It's only when you get a bit older that you have the confidence to say that kind of thing though, to not care about what people think of you and to follow your own path.

You seem like a great mother to you daughter too-loving her and giving opportunities to her. Some of your daughter's friends probably don't have that same close mother-daughter relationship or the opportunities that your daughter has so that can cause envy, friction... whatever you want to call it. That will go over your daughter's head but I just have a funny feeling that could be a factor too.

Your daughter seems smart so the girls talking about clothes etc may be intimidated by that. Also she is outgoing whereas other people struggle with shyness so that can be yet another thing that causes jealousy.

Your daughter struggles with her self-esteem so she probably just presumes that everyone else is better than her whereas in reality, that's not the case at all. Going on what you've posted, she has a lot of talents but maybe doesn't realize how capable and competent she truly is. I think it's great that she is setting herself goals re the gym and a mother-daughter holiday sounds lovely so hope you have a good time!

[griz]

Hi All:

Back from our vacation.  I think alot of the ideas you have shared are helpful and make sense.

Someday:  I am going to look for those CD's.  I think self compassion is a really important thing and both DD and I would benefit from it. 

Musicfan:  Alot of what you said makes sense.  Her self-esteem is really very poor so her reality is quite off.  The goals she is setting at the gym are really helpful as she is seeing results and sticking with it.  We actually got up every morning on our vacation and went running (well, truthfully I bailed one day). And she also did some of her stationary workouts in the room at night.  I was glad to see that she didn't over do it but at least made sure she tried to stay with her program.

About our vacation... . Well we had a lovely 6 days.  We found that it isn;t easy to travel with others, even if you know them well.  We are very fast movers. Up and out in the morning and going all day.  Our friends were very slow movers and this became a little irritating but DD and I were able to go for walks while we waited and even share some ideas on how we could deal with some of the behaviors we found irritating.  We even talked about the fact that we were probably somewhat irritating to them.  We decided to take one whole day and evening just to be by ourselves and we had a lovely day and evening being together.  The only time I found her mood would change or so south was when she was really hungry or wanted a really crappy snack and she would not allow herself to have it.  I found the best way to deal with it was to just NOT DEAL.  I let her deal with it on her own and I found that mostly she did ok.  The one thing that I did find was that I am not sure when some of her behaviors are BPD related or just normal teenage behavior.  In watching her friend talk to her mom I saw a lot of behaviors that DD exhibits such as getting annoyed easily, being sarcastic, getting angry easily.  Best part though was coming home last night and her reminding me first thing this morning that we had group DBT tonight... .

Griz

[qcarolr]

Griz -    So good to here of this success for each of you. Thanks for the update.

qcr   

[vivekananda]

Best part though was coming home last night and her reminding me first thing this morning that we had group DBT tonight...

 

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

My DD18 has been struggling with this for some time and it is keeping friends.

 

Hi Griz,

one would say: ok, that's typical for many pwBPD... . However, when I looked at the scenarios you gave, it looks like it's a good thing that your DD doesn't want to be around some of her friends, and some friendships we just outgrow. That is a normal process.

At your DD's age, transitioning from childhood into adulthood, it is a challenge for any young person to form new adult friendships while they are searching for their adult identity... .

So, I would say - it may be harder for your DD to do it, but she is going through a natural, healthy process.

Here's what I think of the examples you gave:

1) highschool partiers & pot-smokers, bad company. Good for DD she doesn't want to be around them.

2) drama girl in the group jealous of DD's friend - challenge even for a confident teenager.

3) bf w/PTSD... . probably not a good idea; but on the other hand, summer is coming to an end, the group may re-connect in the fall. Summer breaks don't mean that the friendships are over, just temporarily put on hold.

4) friends from camp - we do outgrow many of our chidhood friendships, that is completely normal.

I have encouraged her to joing some groups this upcoming school year.  Maybe a book club, a GSA or a political group and also that she may need to find a few different groups of friends and shouldn't expect one group to fill every need she has. 

I am happy for you and DD that the vacation went well! Honestly, Griz, your DD is starting to look more and more like a healthy kid.

(I know, she has her struggles etc., but to me, she seems to be on an upward path)

[sunshineplease]

Hey, Griz,

As usual, so much resonates in your post (and in the replies). My UD18 has had problems with friends since elementary school: She was desperate for a best friend who'd be a bosom buddy, but everyone "let her down." Normal kid stuff, but to her (so sensitive) it always felt like betrayal. At the time I thought she was just exceptionally clear on what she needed from a friend, but now I see it as nascent BPD: She wanted perfection!

Her standards are still WAY too high, and she still gets WAY overinvolved in other people's issues... . wanting to fix, getting enmeshed, being critical of, or using them as a distraction, rather than dealing with her own stuff. Makes sense, as BPD is largely a relational problem.

This piece lists 5 common behavioral patterns in relationships: www.BPDcentral.com/borderline-disorder/BPD-relationships/ I've seen them all.

I agree with Musicfan: Once we can accept our own flaws, we can accept the flaws of others. And vice versa. And that is difficult for a PWBPD.

So happy to hear you had a nice vacation. We, too, really enjoy being with our daughter in lower-stress situations. It's "real life" that has us flummoxed -- but improving!

[musicfan42]

Hey Griz,

It's great that the holiday went well! I think that setting fitness goals is a good antidote to black and white thinking. Black and white thinking/all or nothing thinking is really about being the best/perfect or else being nothing (e.g. a failure/terrible etc) whereas setting attainable goals is really a nice balance between the two. Goal setting isn't about self-flagellation but rather about self-empowerment-working at your own pace and breaking bigger goals into smaller mini-goals.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

hey Griz

just wanted to give me two cents... . been away from the boards a lot lately.

My dd has always struggled with friendships... . she likes the idea of being popular and I think she could have many friends but they have to be popular. She started a new school and is struggling to make friends. there is also the voice telling her no one wants to be her friend... . I girl she knew invited her to have lunch with her this week but she didn't go... . fearing she really didn't mean it. Lacking the self confidence to go and sit down... . afraid the girl would say get lost... . none of that makes sense but the negative thoughts is what she need to acknowledge... . the error in thinking... .

if our girls can do that they would have friends... . glad your vacation was good.