Non Violent Communications class/course

[Someday . . .]

Question:  I am currently in an ongoing Non Violent Communications class/course (I love it!) and I was wondering if anyone is familiar with it and if you feel that it may be beneficial to use with someone who has BPD.  My personal thoughts are that the validation and a little bit of empathy would be fine to use with someone who has BPD.  I don't feel that using the full scope of empathy would be beneficial to someone with BPD as they could get stuck in the emotion part.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hello Someday,

I did not take a class in NVC, I just read the book a few years back. Here is a good aticle:

Nonviolent Communication by Marshall B. Rosenberg, Ph.D.

I found it quite helpful to take the skill of validation to a deeper and more personal level of my thinking and judgements... .  the skill becomes integrated into who we are versus something we do.  

lbj

[sunshineplease]

Hello, Someday, I've been in an NVC practice group for five years, and am pretty familiar with it, though of course I still feel like a beginner! I will say I find NVC quite similar to some of what is recommended for BPD, especially as regards honoring someone else's experience and mindset. But whereas NVC's OFNR (observation, feelings, needs, request) works well with most people, it can, I believe, backfire with pwBPD. My daughter, for example, can't even hear the "O." She'll twist even the simplest observation  ("When I see clothes on the floor... .  " and connection is lost. So when I speak with her next (she's been in wilderness before heading off to an RTC), I'm going to try validation (let's call it "V" first, and see if it helps. So... .  VOFNR. But having ready Valerie Porr's book, I'm thinking I might to better to substitute Q (question) for the R. Because, again, pwBPD can misread even simple, innocent requests as demands. So... .  VOFNQ?

That said, once one has truly internalized NVC, one lives fully in the intent of connection. And when you've reached that point, I bet it works 100%.

[Someday . . .]

Lbjntlx and sunshineplease,  Thanks for your responses!  I really appreciate them!

Someday . . .

[qcarolr]

I have read the book and it really supported much of what I try to be with validation and an attitude of loving kindness and compassion. It does need some adjustments when using with my DD26. I really like "VOFNQ".

If I am able to live in this place of 'intent for connection', then I can be in balance as intended by design as a human. So much of what I am learning about interpersonal neuroscience leads me to see how this could unblock me, regardless of what is going on around me. Will need to be working toward this my whole life though - don't think attaining this perfection is realistic - well because I am human.

qcr

[vivekananda]

hey there, hi someday... .  

I love NVC, it struck a chord with me, perhaps because Rosenberg's book explains it in a logical way for me. I am sure though that doing a course on NVC would be different.

This is what I got out of it, briefly:

validation means to identify the emotions in what a person is saying and to acknowledge that to the speaker. That everything we say has some emotional need within it. I believe if we wish to develop our relationship with someone who has BPD, then we should only work on validating their emotions. This means listening to what they are really saying.

As an aside, mindfulness - as I have come to inderstand it - has 3 components. One is 'detachment' or 'letting go of ego'. This means, when in conversation with our pwBPD, that when we are talking with them, it is not about us, we need to detach from our own emotional needs to listen and acknowledge theirs.

As non BPD peeps, we can meet our emotional needs. As Rosenberg suggests, in our culture, the way we communicate (which is invalidating) is based in our political/philosophical/hierarchical culture. So, to really listen is a challenge to us.

Now, we all must be the ones to meet our own emotional needs. But pwBPD have difficulty even identifying their emotions. When we consider that their amygdala and pre frontal cortex have limited neural pathways, then we can understand that they 'think with their emotions'. So to consciously validate means not just listening to them to understand their world better (empathy), we are giving them the language to identify what they are feeling. This helps build those neural pathways they need to live better lives.

You refer to getting stuck in their emotional part, on the contrary, validation helps them get unstuck. However, if our pwBPD has an anger level of more than 5 out of 10, then it is hard for them to calm down and not escalate. So, when an anger level reaches that a boundary should be set to drop the conversatin until things can be more calm. This of course needs to be agreed to beforehand.

The other part of NVC is about communicating our emotional needs with a view to letting the other person know what they can do to help us meet our own emotional need, is not appropriate for a pwBPD who is our child. Maybe if we were in a relationship with someone, we might think it appropriate, I wouldn't want to say. In this situation it helps to practice another aspect of mindfulness, 'acceptance'. Acceptance means accepting the person for who they are and not expecting them to help us meet our needs.

The thing is - as I have learnt from reading Lundbergs book - you don't have to make everything better - if we are not validating, we are invalidating. We non BPD peeps can cope easily with invalidating responses (some more than others... .  ) but to a pwBPD, it

is another blow to their fragile identity. They cannot afford non validating relationships - that's why I believe they have so much trouble with the close relationships in their lives. 

hope this makes some sense.

cheers,

viv   

[qcarolr]

Sometimes the linguistics of all the things I read, that are really working toward the same good result, get in the way using it from inside in an integrated way. Does that make any sense? Too many words muddle my thinking.

For me, after reading the book NVC, it felt like a corporate training session more than focused on family relationships. Not sure the investment in a class would work out in my case. Yet, so much of what is in this model (NVC) does makes sense to me and fits with other 'languages' for communication and interconnection that I have been exposed to.

qcr  

[mggt]

Hi could you please give me the name of book you were speaking of thank you

[lbjnltx]

Hi could you please give me the name of book you were speaking of thank you

"Non Violent Communication" by Marshall Rosenberg

I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better" by Gary and Joy Lundberg

See the book reviews to get a better idea on the books.  Click the blue links

[mamachelle]

I've been dealing with a lot of emotional dysregulation all day, using validation but not non stop... Exhausting but it's the only way.

[vivekananda]

yeah, and it's so much harder with younger ones and teenagers.

I think the trick is to understand that my own (our own) emotional needs are not another person's problem... .  if I am tired, frustrated, angry, hurt etc, then it is up to me to accept how I feel and work towards meeting my own needs. And when you have younger and teenager kids ... .  don't we just want to say "what about me?" ?... .  this requires what I describe as letting go of ego.

To meet our needs requires us to be mindful: to be in our present, to recognise the reality and deal with it: 1) connect with the universe, call upon our own deep spiritual connectedness, our energy within and without 2) let go of our ego to open ourselves to the emotional needs of others and 3) accept what is, without judgement, with clear heart, mind and soul.

Yes, it is exhausting and so often we are totally worn. We make mistakes, we give up, we try again. It is only through practise that we can develop a default position so that validation is the automatic response. When we have reached that automatic stage, then we are able to meet our own emotional needs and personally, for ourselves we are able to feel an intrinsic happiness - regardless of the horribleness of the situation we and our loved ones are in... .  that's an idealistic position maybe, but the one I am working towards.

Cheers,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mamachelle]

It was like an Instant Karma Breakfast Drink this morning ... .  As I was reading your post on this thread this morning on my phone, SS10 was talking with his brothers... .  suddenly he turned to me and seemed to be awaiting a response. I looked up and he had a hostile look as if I had been ignoring him for the past 10 minutes.

So, remembering my new mantra   and just the words "Non-Violent Communication" I turned to him and said something affirming.

He instantly smiled and went back to his conversation.

I've also just been prodding my H when he gets bleak and nihilistic saying-- Non-Violent Communication, Non-Violent Communication

and he is getting it. It's funny how easy it can be to at least trigger a good response. We are so used to being triggered negatively.

Someday... .  and all on this thread, thanks for the information... .  I at least need to check that other book out on NVC though I don't think I'll be able to take a class for a while... . 

[jellibeans]

I have been on you tube for the past two days watching Marshall Rosenberg's videos.

The Basics of Non Violent Communication Part 1

The Basics of Non Violent Communication Part 2

I am not sure I understand it completely but I truly think it is one of the most valuable videos I have seen in some time. Has anyone seen these videos? I would be interested in read your thoughts. Are "values" judgements?  Are we ignoring our children's needs?

Here what I am wondering about... .If we can find what our children's needs are maybe we would see different behavior. I watched one video where he talks about a couple that came to him about their daughter who was in the hospital because of depression. The. Couple told them about her and asked for help. He told them to bring her in to see him. The next day they discharged her from the hospital and brought her in. The next day she was in his office. He asked her a few questions and she just stared at the floor. He finally just sat there with her in her pain saying nothing. They did this everyday for a week and she said nothing. The last day she sat there and shook her fist at him. He asked are you angry that you are coming here everyday. Again she said nothing but Marshall noticed she had a small pro e of paper in her fist. He pride it from her hand and it said help me understand my feeling. Mashall believed the hospital was a jackle environment that said there was something wrong with her... .Judging her and ignoring her needs

Now I know I have not probably explained this well but I cried through this video thinking of my daughter and how many visits we have made to the ER ... .It has given me a lot to think about.

[lbjnltx]

Are values judgements?  Are we ignoring our children's needs?

The NVC method is one of complete acceptance, nonjudgment, selflessness, expressing our needs without demands and letting go.

To aspire towards these is commendable and may not always be in the best interest of a relationship with a child/adult child that suffers with BPD.  Why?  Because allowing another person to be verbally abusive towards us is not modeling healthy skills.  All peoples in this world need to learn to respect boundaries. Acceptance does not = being a doormat.  Selflessness does not mean ridding yourself of your own needs.  Letting go does not mean forgetting ... .it means not holding onto the past so that the future can look different than the past.

To be nonjudgmental is not to say that we accept unacceptable behaviors.  To completely sacrifice our own well being for any person is not good for us or them.  Instead it is about not personalizing the actions of others. It is about not labeling the person according to their actions.

It would be helpful to refer back to this article Family Guidelines, Supporting a Loved-one with BPD by J. Gunderson.

In order to respect boundaries (boundaries workshop) one must have the skills necessary to regulate their emotionally driven behavior. For people who suffer from BPD to learn these skills they need us to show them how, such as those taught in DBT.  We can help them learn to self soothe by listening, validating, and asking validating questions (to help them move towards problem solving) or asking what we can do to help (limited by our value based boundaries).  The video by Fruzzetti is a good resource for learning how validation affects a person with BPD.

Marshall Rosenberg is not writing as a trained clinician in the field of BPD.  His work is about changing our perspective and reactions to the world around us.  Some of it is applicable to our relationships with our loved ones and some of it is not.

lbjnltx

[qcarolr]

Are values judgements?  Are we ignoring our children's needs?

The NVC method is one of complete acceptance, nonjudgment, selflessness, expressing our needs without demands and letting go.

To aspire towards these is commendable and may not always be in the best interest of a relationship with a child/adult child that suffers with BPD.  Why?  Because allowing another person to be verbally abusive towards us is not modeling healthy skills.  All peoples in this world need to learn to respect boundaries. Acceptance does not = being a doormat.  Selflessness does not mean ridding yourself of your own needs.  Letting go does not mean forgetting ... .it means not holding onto the past so that the future can look different than the past.

To be nonjudgmental is not to say that we accept unacceptable behaviors.  To completely sacrifice our own well being for any person is not good for us or them.  Instead it is about not personalizing the actions of others. It is about not labeling the person according to their actions.

... .

Marshall Rosenberg is not writing as a trained clinician in the field of BPD.  His work is about changing our perspective and reactions to the world around us.  Some of it is applicable to our relationships with our loved ones and some of it is not.

lbj - your reply really helps clarify this murky place I am in lately. Esp. the part To aspire towards these is commendable and may not always be in the best interest of a relationship with a child/adult child that suffers with BPD.

As I am reading a series of parenting books, directed toward doing my best with gd8, I keep hearing this little voice in my head say "What about me". There is all this about the parent being in a calm, regulated state to help downshift the child into a more regulated state. Then they can be in a place to hear about values, boundaries and what they need to be learning from the most recent situation - how to find a solution.  And always there is the overlay of -- 'wish I could have done this with DD27'.

NVC, I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better both have given me personal guidance that is helping in many areas of my life. With my dh and co-workers mostly. It does help me validate and care for myself in these r/s. It just does not get close to touching how to build a healthy interaction with my DD right now. I am in a trauma state, even with her currently in jail. This state of fear impacts all these other places where I have done better.

Not sure if this is a direct reply to this thread. THese are the issues that come to mind. A lot of these resources seemed to help me over past  few years. Reading them again I mostly feel angry. Working to find ways to reconnect - they are in my memory systems somewhere. Dang! Where is that toolbag when you need it!

qcr