How to deal with never answering correctly in their eyes.

[wishfulthinking]

OK, so I'm treading lightly and most likely leaving but for now I'm posting here because I figure since I have to stay for a bit I might contact with those who are actively trying to get along, because ultimately, I do want to get along.

If uBPDh is talking and I stay silent, even though I'm looking at him, he gets mad because I'm not "conversing" with him and giving him the "I'm understanding" que's... .So, he hates when people say "right" when listening because "maybe he's not right" or maybe they just shouldn't say it because he thinks it's stupid... .if I say "uh-huh" then "why are you agreeing? I'm not even done talking yet".  Apparently my switch to "OK" is eliciting the same response. 

Being totally exasperated at this point, I ask him... .what words would you like me to use to let you know I'm listening since silence is not acceptable, either?  He says... .I want you to converse with me!  I say... .I'm trying to but every word I use is unacceptable to you!

He gets on me about blaming him and trying to make it his fault and I said I'm not blaming you, I'm just trying to find the proper words to communicate so you know I'm listening and not offending you in any way.  Then he goes off about how he feels I don't love him passionately anymore and never talk to him at all.  I just looked at him.  I said... .I love you, uBPDh.  I'm sorry I've made you feel that way.  You're right.  He said he'd said nothing to elicit the "You're right" response and tried to make me tell him how he was right.  I just shut up.  I had nothing more to say and I told him so.  His S10 came and said Dad STOP and so he did. 

But that's all I could muster.  I just can't anymore.  I went and took a long shower and since I'm sick right now, I went to bed.  He wasn't happy with that, either.  OH well.

[Surnia]

Lost

I can relate with your feeling, it reminds me the worse dialogs in my exmarriage and my despair. 

When he wants blame you he will find any possibility to do so. Whatever you will do, he will blame you. He is mental ill, so you will not reach him with normal open communication.

I went and took a long shower and since I'm sick right now, I went to bed.

I think this is really the best you can do in this situation. Its hard I know.

I hope you will get better soon. 

[drv3006]

 thank u for this post. I could have wrote the same thing word for word !

[myself]

It's hard. Because we want to keep a balance, but the wind is always shifting. We want to say what's right, what it really is, but that often isn't what they want to hear. When the focus is all on them, we lose sight of ourselves. Which is how we really do answer correctly, in any eyes there are. By being Ourselves. If it's a game someone else is playing, we don't have to play. If it's coming at us in disordered ways, and harmful for us, we need to respect ourselves and do what's best. Which is answer to ourselves first. A relationship is supposed to be togetherness, not walking on eggshells alone. 

[SweetCharlotte]

By all means, don't play his game because you'll lose every time. And feel better soon!

My uBPDh used to interrogate me using his version of Socratic method. Except that his inner logic is so F'ed up concerning emotional issues that there was no way he could lead me down his garden path of Reason! He would ask me what the next statement should be repeatedly and each time I would guess incorrectly. This often happened on the phone since it's an LDR, and he would hang up on me and turn off his phone for hours or days.

Now I say, "I'm not letting you quiz me about this. Speak your peace or change the subject." And that seems to have extinguished this particular troublesome behavior.

[MammaMia]

Lostinparadise

I have the same problem with my dBPDs when it comes to communication.

I have learned to just listen and be positive with the head nodding and using phrases like "okay" or "I see".  "I understand" cannot be used, because he says there is NO WAY I can even begin to understand what he feels.  Also off limits are "need, want, should, could, have to, must, may, probably, I wish, and why".

Outrageous?  Read on... .

Deep sighing is problematic as is unsolicited giggling or laughter.  If I cross my arms or legs while chatting with him, he says my body language tells him I am not interested and not listening.  He EXPECTS my full attention.  To suddenly look away for any reason also tells him that I am invalidating or denying what he is saying.  Questions?  Oh yeah, they are a problem too.  Hates questions and being interrupted.

I have actually suggested he e-mail me, but pwBPD seem to NEED to see facial expressions and voice tone ... .which are pieces of the puzzle they use when trying to "read" us.  These things help them to determine if we are being honest.

Mostly, I believe they just want us to listen.

Even with all the rules we have developed, it is impossible to know exactly what to say.  My son's response one day may not be the same on a different day. The "trigger" words, however, remain consistent.

BPDspeak is like learning a foreign language.  

[wishfulthinking]

MammaMia, our BPD must be the same person! Except "okay"was the trigger word the other night... .arms crossed, deep sigh, all those are triggers.

I am feeling some better, everyone. Thank you.

[Montana]

I can understand your frustration.  Sometimes when I read some posts it makes me laugh, and only because it's my life too. It's like wow I'm not alone kind of laugh. A laugh of relief I guess you can say.  If I don't give my uBPDh my full attention he freaks out.  If I take a 1/2 second to respond to a question he freaks out.  Then the rage might start.  Some of his questions are "tests" that of course I mostly fail.  It drives me crazy.  Especially when he is asking me a loaded question or something I'm not sure what he wants to hear.  You have to be quick on your toes. I'm still trying to learn myself how to communicate.  Most of the time I just keep my mouth shut or try to keep him sidetracked. It's exhausting.  My uBPDh is in treatment right now for alcohol.  I wasn't sure how that was going to go. He can act normal for short periods of time.  I thought I was going to get a break from him. Boy I was wrong. He constantly calls me needing something from me. Or needing me to do something for him.  Even him away I'm emotionally exhausted.  Good luck to you. Read the help boards about communication. It does help. 

[pessim-optimist]

Some of your responses remind me of my uBPD brother. We haven't been in contact for a long time, and I only learned about BPD after I talked to him last.

I remember well what you are explaining - the inability to please him with ANY response. I was always trying to 'come over to his world' and try to imagine what he wanted and I was always wrong in the end.

After reading some books about BPD and having some positive reactions from my step-daughter (she is very different than my brother though) I now wonder what he would have said if I stopped trying to be in his world, stayed firmly in mine and just described my experiences for a change. Like 'Hm, I am listening to what you are saying and I am thinking about it.' Or 'I am listening and trying to understand' and follow up with a validating statement.

I think if he would not be happy with that, I think I would have just said: 'I really want to help, and I don't seem to be able to really get what you are trying to say, why don't we try it another time?' and then I would exit... .

On that shower. Hope you are feeling better... .

[MammaMia]

Last night when at my house, my dBPDs told me... ."you made a face when we were sitting at the dining room table talking a week or so ago... .it made me furious.  You really do not listen or understand what I am saying.  You totally blew me off."

DUH?  I have no idea what he is talking about.  THAT is another trait of BPD.  I am supposed to know exactly what he is talking about because he has been ruminating about it for a week... .Will he explain why he is upset?  No.

Silence is golden, but even that does not work.  Then he says he is "talking to a rock".  I have no feelings or emotions and I am DEFINITELY not listening.

I give up.  It is impossible to anticipate how they think or feel because they are all over the map.  Just when I believe we are making progress, he does whatever he can to re-enforces his belief that I am the enemy.  

My pwBPD seems to use conversation as a weapon to control the situation.  When stressed, he can talk literally for hours, repeating the same information over and over.  When I think we have ended things on a positive note, he will go home and call me with some kind of complaint that he forgot to mention.

You know... .NC can be a gift from God.

[popeye6031]

lostinparadise, woudl you say this kind of behaviour has gotten worse and more sifnifcantly, did it get worse when you got married?

[wishfulthinking]

Popeye,   

It was non-existant before we got married.  About 2 weeks after it's escalated and escalated.  I can't do anything right, anymore.  I'm surprised I am allowed to breathe at this point.  From what I've read other people have dealt with, that'll be next, though.

MammaMia, I'm sure our BPD's are the same person.  I can't raise an eyebrow or blink at the "wrong" time.  If I make sure my face doesn't move so I don't trigger, then I am a cold emotionless c8nt.  I've never been called that word in my life until him.  I don't call him names.  Anyway, if I do show emotion then why am I showing it because it's not about me... .I'm not the one who should be showing emotion right now... .wth?

He will cycle over and over a topic, changing it a tad to suit the situation or feeling at hand, it's been months since a situation with church or with his brother and he's still up in arms about it.  No one died, get over it!  Life happens and people will offend you, geez.  I just listen and let him vent, but then he's hateful for the rest of the day because of the negative tangent he just went off on... .ugh.

[niimin]

I think we are all speaking of the same person!  My husband dragged me out to work in the middle of the night to prove I was having an affair... .apologized and cried when he was wrong... .and got mad at me again before the alarm went off at 6 am... .There was yet another answer he was looking for... .

According to him I'm an evil genius here to ruin his life with smoke and mirrors... .  Frustrated I finally asked him what would be the right answer for him... .  he said "Tell me I'm right"  I said sorry honey... .I will not lie to you!

And the cycle continues... .

[pessim-optimist]

... .  I can't raise an eyebrow or blink at the "wrong" time.  If I make sure my face doesn't move so I don't trigger, then I am a cold emotionless c8nt.  I've never been called that word in my life until him.  I don't call him names.  Anyway, if I do show emotion then why am I showing it because it's not about me... .I'm not the one who should be showing emotion right now... .wth?

... .My husband dragged me out to work in the middle of the night to prove I was having an affair... .apologized and cried when he was wrong... .and got mad at me again before the alarm went off at 6 am... .There was yet another answer he was looking for... .

So when you look at the pros and cons for staying in this relationship; if these behaviors would get under control, would you want to stay with this person?

[niimin]

Pros & Cons... .

Yes if the behaviours would get under control I would stay with him.  I understand that emotions are very strong for him... .and I don't believe that there is anything wrong with his feelings or emotions... .it's the behaviours that accompany them that are hurting me and our family.

His counsellor told me today that the most important thing is my safety and my son's safety and too always keep that at the forfront of decision making.  I didn't know whether to laugh or cry!

Anyways... .there is the short answer   

[daylily]

I too have this issue.  The arm crossing is a big thing at our house.  My uBPDh perceives it as being aggressive, when in reality, I'm feeling vulnerable and I'm protecting myself.  I also need to maintain eye contact with him when he's speaking, and I cannot do anything else at the same time (I work full-time and do most of the housework, so I need to multitask, but that's not acceptable to my H).  If I ask questions or discuss what he's talking about, I'm "poo pooing" what he has to say, and I get "why can't you just agree with me on something?"  I'm convinced there's just nothing we can do about this.  No matter what we do or say, there will be an issue. 

I just continue to give the same cues as I would if I were talking with anyone else and if H starts ranting, I stop the conversation by leaving the room to do something else.  Or maybe if I get lucky one of the kids will need something and I can escape that way.  I suppose maybe some validation would be helpful here and there, but sometimes I'm just not up for it.

  Daylily

[wishfulthinking]

Yes, if the behaviors were under control I would stay.  The emotions I can deal with. The behaviors are out of control any more.

Last night, we had a very close emotional moment and I thought maybe could turn a page.  Then, he went to the "gas station" and was gone almost an hour and came back and was ok, but not ready for bed and said he'd taken his meds too late and couldn't sleep now.  I went to bed.  He came to bed and did something VERY inappropriately forceful and when I stopped his action, I then rolled over and tried to go to sleep and let it go. Well, it ended up with him raging and telling me how I've stomped all over him and made him feel like trash and he never should have opened up to me like I did... .he's going to leave and I don't treat him with respect... .blah blah blah... .WHAT?

[imrealafterall]

Oh. I can feel your pain. The shaking your head or saying right or ok or yes are all no-nos for me if I want peace around here. I do get tired of listening to the complaints after a  while and I guess I use to roll my eyes sometimes. Now, he can raise his voice, call names, or whatever he wants but if I make any body language that he interprets as disrespectfully disregarding his wishes I never hear the end of that.

He can be talking and talking and talking (even for 45 minutes and he gets furious if I try to cut in and get a word in) and he can bring up things to "make a point", but the minute I respond to any of those things I'm derailing the conversation and taking it on a side-tangent to redirect the conversation. It's ok for him to say those things and blame me for something but not for me to respond.

He will say things and then later act like he doesn't remember them (funny that those times happen to be the ones in which my point would be backed-up and he's have to admit what I am saying is right). If I forget something then it's thrown up in my face.  I can't stand the "If you aren't trying to excelerate the argument by saying insert any phrase then the conversation wouldn't have escalated. It couldn't have been because I got tired of listening to the "you act like you're dumb, stupid, can understand, etc... " He only says and does THOSE things AFTER he's tolerated my disrespect and not doing what he's asked me to (maybe concerning our kids) for weeks without saying anything.

I use to take it to heart and tried to change. I cried. I believed if I could just be quiet during an argument, or follow his rules, and speak properly then all would be ok. I finally realized their is nothing I will ever do to be good enough. He will say one thing and then if I do it he will later said that's not what he said to do. I felt crazy sometimes... .then I realised he may or may not remember something but I did and wasn't going crazy. At times, I felt he did this on purpose to keep me "on my toes", but now I don't care really.

I stopped listening to try to see what I could do to fix me and make things better by just doing... .whatever... .better. I started just listening (maybe up to an hour) before just saying "I don't want to appear disrespectful, but I don't agree with what you're saying and I don't want to listen to it any longer. I'm feeling upset and will leave the room now". Things got so much better. Then after a "quiet spell" I'll let down my guard and find myself almost responding back in the same old ways when he ratchets things up to get a response (I believe). After an all out argument I realize I took the bait again. Usually, it's after I find myself listening to him complain and point out why he is justified to be angry and react that way and that it ALWAYS has began with me and something I didn't do that he wants. He'll do what I call the "cobra" if he's feeling really off and I won't let him call me names without 'arguing back' (his words). The 'cobra' is where he stares and sits forward and makes his shoulders flare out (just a way of trying to physically intimidate me).

I have to train myself all over again. The cycle is frankly exhausting.

You're not alone, this is common behavior for BPD's.

[hopealways]

I knew I had to leave when she yelled at me for "teasing" MY dogs by allowing them to lick the plate which I had finished eating my food.  Dogs love licking the end of a plate.  She called it teasing.  That's how awful I was-a dog teaser! WOW.  Run my friends, it never gets better.

[MammaMia]

Imrealafterall

Everything you said describes my dBPDs39  100%. Why is this disorder so predictable? 

Different people, different backgrounds, different brains, but their thought processes are exactly the same!  Their lack of communication skills and twisted logic identical. 

After hours and hours of discussion this past week about my his growing up years and the

abuse we all suffered by his alcoholic father, he suddenly decided that I am the reason he has "PTSD"... .this week he totally denies being BPD.  His chaotic life and issues with law enforcement (due to alcoholism and a slew of bad choices) are all my fault because I threw his verbally and emotionally abusive father out 25 years ago. ?  He says since I have been the only constant in his life, everything bad, wrong, or dysfunctional HAS to be my fault.

After an hour on the phone last night, I told him we had beat this dead horse from decades ago to death, and I am done discussing it.  It is time to move on.  I also told him that I thought we needed to take a break from each other.  Fortunately, he does not live with me, but he is the one who constantly contacts me.  Some days I will get a dozen phone calls from him, obsessing about the same topics over and over... .  AND I do not listen, I am stupid, etc.

It sounds like you know exactly where I am coming from.  Thank you for posting about your circumstance, I really needed to hear exactly what you said tonight.

Misery loves company.

[SimplySeattle]

If uBPDh is talking and I stay silent, even though I'm looking at him, he gets mad because I'm not "conversing" with him and giving him the "I'm understanding" que's

I have had the exact same problem with my wife. If I am quiet and listening to hear explain something to me, she will get upset if I don't constantly acknowledge what she is saying. If I tell her I'm listening to her words, she will continue to talk and then get upset again if I am quiet. This is really frustrating if we're watching a movie in Chinese and she is translating for me; I have to constantly nod my head or give her some feedback to show I'm listening.

As far as reading body language, she does that too. During the first couple of months we were married, she would get upset if my face was not happy (anything besides a happy face would be considered angry or upset in her eyes). So I would have to be very careful when I was around her to appear happy even if it was a hard day at work or if I was feeling down. It was kind of a self fulfilling prophecy in the sense that if we had a disagreement, and I looked upset from it, then it would cause more problems with her since I looked unhappy. I've tried to explain to her that we can't be happy all the time and that I may look unhappy when in fact I may just be tired or had a hard day at work.

Her son pulled my aside one day and said that she reads his face too and has done so for many years.

She also will consider any serious talking an argument/fight when our voices are not even raised (at least mine is not).

Very strange... .

[SweetCharlotte]

He came to bed and did something VERY inappropriately forceful and when I stopped his action, I then rolled over and tried to go to sleep and let it go. Well, it ended up with him raging and telling me how I've stomped all over him and made him feel like trash and he never should have opened up to me like I did... .he's going to leave and I don't treat him with respect... .blah blah blah... .WHAT?

This has gone beyond unpleasant reactions to things we say in response to our partners wBPD. When it becomes physical, there's no more strategizing or care-taking to be done. This is where one is advised to pack up and leave for safety's sake.

[pessim-optimist]

As far as reading body language, she does that too. During the first couple of months we were married, she would get upset if my face was not happy (anything besides a happy face would be considered angry or upset in her eyes).

You said that your wife will translate from Chinese... .Did she grow up in an asian culture? I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that it is a cultural habit of politeness in certain asian cultures to always be slighlty smiling, if everything is ok. If that's your wife's upbringing, she may just be more sensitive to that due to BPD... .

Just a thought... .

Yes, if the behaviors were under control I would stay.  The emotions I can deal with. The behaviors are out of control any more.

I am so sorry you are going through this... .I am not sure - you may be familiar with these articles. If not, you might find them helpful:

   

Five Keys to Help You Heal, Whether You Stay in Your Relationship or Leave

   

How to respond to heightened emotions

[SimplySeattle]

As far as reading body language, she does that too. During the first couple of months we were married, she would get upset if my face was not happy (anything besides a happy face would be considered angry or upset in her eyes).

You said that your wife will translate from Chinese... .Did she grow up in an asian culture? I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that it is a cultural habit of politeness in certain asian cultures to always be slighlty smiling, if everything is ok. If that's your wife's upbringing, she may just be more sensitive to that due to BPD... .

Just a thought... .

I've been to China and if having a slight smile to show happiness, then I saw many miserable people in the large city I visited. Her reaction to a non-smiling face is not, ":)id you have a bad day?" Or, "Is there something wrong?" It is an instant assumption that I am angry and she responds with anger. Not so pleasant after a long day of work and then a long drive. She has been better about responding to my body language, but the anxiety may be showing itself in other ways... .

[pessim-optimist]

As far as reading body language, she does that too. During the first couple of months we were married, she would get upset if my face was not happy (anything besides a happy face would be considered angry or upset in her eyes).

You said that your wife will translate from Chinese... .Did she grow up in an asian culture? I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that it is a cultural habit of politeness in certain asian cultures to always be slighlty smiling, if everything is ok. If that's your wife's upbringing, she may just be more sensitive to that due to BPD... .

Just a thought... .

I've been to China and if having a slight smile to show happiness, then I saw many miserable people in the large city I visited. Her reaction to a non-smiling face is not, ":)id you have a bad day?" Or, "Is there something wrong?" It is an instant assumption that I am angry and she responds with anger. Not so pleasant after a long day of work and then a long drive. She has been better about responding to my body language, but the anxiety may be showing itself in other ways... .

I might be wrong after all... .

Bottom line, your wife's anxiety demonstrates itself in anger towards you, or other behaviors that are not healthy, and that is difficult to cope with... .

[wishfulthinking]

Looks like we are all in the same boat... .

I think it was MammaMia who mentioned how crazy it was that with all of us being different and having different SO's that it's amazing how similar our experiences are. 

I just don't think I'm strong enough to handle the extremes.  I'm not ready to give up on the happiness that I had in my life before him, and I had no one but myself and my daughter.  I was just fine.  I wish I'd have never given him the chance.  I'm tired of being the scapegoat, but maybe it's just because he got on me this morning at 530 in the morning because his phone is broken and I loaned him mine.  It's my fault that he can't pay his bill, you know.  He wants me to put him on my plan, but I'm guessing I'll never get any help from him for the bill.  I've been trying to figure out a way around it, but he's pushing.  Now since we didn't get it done this weekend, I am a bad person who doesn't think about his needs.  Doesn't matter that he was in bed all Saturday night after drinking too much at the DAYTIME festival.  Or that yesterday, he wasn't feeling good because of pain killer withdrawal and I spent two hours at Walmart getting groceries only to have the new bank decline the transaction due to a spending limit.  I get home and he's mad at me that I had a bad experience there because it's his fault I even had the experience because I had to switch banks... .so now I'm the one that's the bad person... .I can't take it.