Back from the dead

[suchsadness]

Hi Everyone,

I haven't posted for a long time, but have been reading many posts over the last 4 months and had all of you in my thoughts and prayers.  I have felt emotionally drained since my dd36 raged and told me I was dead to her and her children... .and MUCH, MUCH more.  I have honored her no contact demand, including not seeing my 2 beautiful grandsons when we traveled out of state to visit them.  It has been terribly hard and I actually have been visiting a website for estranged parents.  My dd had a birthday last week... .I sent a card to her ex husband's house (because I have nowhere else to send it since she is homeless) and it was returned to me in the mail.  Then about 3 days after her birthday I received an email that had some mixed messages, some suicidal insinuations as well, but she kept saying she was letting go of her anger and looking for closure.  Just as I was opening her email, she called me via facetime (on my smart phone) using her computer.  She set it up so I could see her face, calling from her vehicle and saying that is where she is living.  She was crying and going back to all the things that she raged about 4 months ago - so it didn't seem like she was letting go of her anger.  I was actually really scared that she had a gun and was going to shoot herself in front of me because of the way she set up the computer for me to see her!  :'( Then my phone kept losing the connection and we ended up losing the connection completely.  I emailed her back because when I called her back there she wasn't there.  Anyway, I ended up going to see my T... .and she said there were some indications that she wanted me to think that she was thinking of suicide but that her email mostly sounded like manipulation.  Anyway, we emailed a couple more times... .I called her city to find out what resources were available to her and gave her some contact information.  She emailed back and said she doesn't want help she wants closure.  I asked her what that meant and she said it means she wants to let go of the anger and find closure.  A couple days later her ex told my other dd that he wants to talk to me about seeing the kids and that they need us in their lives.  That is what we believe too... .but we are wondering if he is doing that to hurt my dd in some way.  He (the ex) wants me to contact him.  This is all so complicated and in the end I don't want to hurt my dd but want to reconnect with my grandsons.  Anyone have any advice on how to approach this? 

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, suchsadness... . 

It truly sounds so complicated and traumatic; I hope you are finding ways to cope. How is your Husband handling all of this? Do you guys have any other family as a support system here? So, are your grandchildren living with your SIL? They are not homeless like your daughter? Does your SIL have contact with your daughter, and does she ever see her kids? Maybe you could talk to him to find out more about how your daughter is doing... .maybe even meet up with her sometime when she's at your SIL's house to see her kids? Or would that cause a scene?

I can't, of course, tell you what to do exactly (only you know how your daughter would react to anything that you would do), but I feel like I would probably be in touch with SIL and try to see the grandkids for a start. Somehow things need to stabilize in at least a little way, I think (but you know better whether that would help or not). Your daughter sounds like she needs an intervention; needs to get some inpatient care and therapy.

Have you read "Get Me Out Of Here" by Rachel Reiland or "The Buddha & The Borderline" by Kiera Van Gelder? Your daughter's symptoms and behaviors remind me of those authors. And though both of them were very BPD, both finally got treatment and are in recovery. Is your daughter in any therapy at all? Does she have a Dr. or any other type of support system for her mental illness? She needs major help as you know... .

I think that since your daughter already is sporadic in her contact with you, so that "No Contact" has already been breached, maybe contacting your SIL won't be such a betrayal (in her eyes) on your part? Only guessing... .Like I said, you know her better than I do. You have a therapist, right? What does he/she say to do? I'm so sorry for all of this trauma you are going through, suchsadness... .Keep us up to date so we can help you; we really do care 

[lbjnltx]

Hello suchsadness,

I am so sorry to hear this news about your daughter.  It is good though that she wants to move forward from the past and have some closure.

Do you have an idea what she desires closure from?  Do you understand what her belief system is that she operates from?

Have you looked at the 10 Forms of Twisted Thinking by Dr. Burns?  You can find it here in this discussion lead by a member that has BPD:

BPD BEHAVIORS: How it feels to have BPD

Should you choose to contact your SIL, be very careful not to negatively triangulate and further damage your r/s with your daughter.  Here is some information on this subject:

Know Good vs Bad Triangulation

When we become a stabilizing force in a relationship dynamic we become part of the solution and avoid becoming a part of the bigger problem. 

After reading the 10 beliefs and thinking about what role you want to be in we are here to help you figure out what to do and how to do it.

There is a lot at stake here, You are not alone in figuring this out.

lbjnltx

[suchsadness]

Thank you Rapt Reader and lbjnltx for your responses.  Both have a lot for me to think about, and like you said lbjnltx... .there is a lot at stake. 

Rapt Reader - no my grandsons are not homeless, they are living with my ex SIL.  He has a new girlfriend and the boys are in a pretty stable environment, thank heavens.  My dd does see them but I don't know what kind of schedule she has with them.  I do know that her ex told her that he is going to be asking for full custody of them soon... .right now he has 51% and she has 49% as ordered by the court.  She hasn't been having them overnight much because she is moving around from friend to friend.  And YES she does need major help.  But according to her she doesn't want help.  She had some outpatient care when she got a DUI about 3 years ago, did some marriage counseling, and got some free sessions from the university from supervised students.  She has given up on looking for help and feels like nobody knows how to treat her.  She is also uninsured so needs to look at public resources.

I am seeing a therapist and it has been really helpful.  I have also started taking medication for anxiety... .which seems to help a lot.  My therapist has been saying that we should not stop trying to see the boys because my dd says so.  My dh has been wonderful through all of this and we talked last night about it.  My one gs has a birthday coming up - so we decided the best thing to do is send a text to my ex sil and tell him we are sending our gs a birthday gift and that we would like to call him on his bday.  We think this would be a good ice breaker and be on a positive note.  I know that he (ex) pulls people in, like my other dd and me, then uses what we say against my dd36 so I am VERY nervous about saying too much to him.  Even having contact with him seems like betrayal in my dd's eyes.  My therapist says we can't worry about that though... .and the boys need to have us and know that we love them and haven't abandoned them.  They too are very worried about their mom. 

Lbjnltx - I will do the reading you are suggesting and Rapt Reader, I haven't read those books but have read several others including Stop Walking on Eggshells, Overcoming BPD, I Don't have to Make Everything Better, and I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.  I wish that all this reading would just guarantee that things get better... .but we all know that we can only change ourselves and that the pwBPD is ultimately in control of changing them and their situations.   :'(

Thanks again for your responses... .this is all so hard on everyone.

[suchsadness]

Oh - and lbjnltx about what she wants closure on... .her past and her anger toward me/us.  She said she's sorry she ever told me and her dad about the abuse (unknown if some is true or fabricated but a lot of what we have heard she is telling people is absolutely not true).  She even said "I forgive you", and says that is not for my benefit but for hers. 

I do NOT understand what her belief system is anymore, she has been saying lately that she no longer has the faith/beliefs we brought her up in and refers to God as "your imaginary man in the sky".  I believe that part of her saying this is to hurt me, as I have a strong faith.

[qcarolr]

suchsadness - this is one of the most painful times for you. so very scary, and out of your control.

Can you find a way to seperate your contact with SIL about your grandkids from you r/s with your D? Keeping all you say and do with him related only to how the kids are doing, and how you can be a safe, stable influence in their lives? Not asking ANYTHING about your D? Hope the birthday card gets to your gs.

When my BPDDD27 was homeless and we had limited contact, she would call me and I would be in fear for her. I knew the general area she was living - ie. what park area - and would say I was concerned for her and would call for a wellness check. Then step back and let happen what would happen. The local police made contact daily with the homeless, and knew who I was asking about. It is so hard to give our love when feeling in so much fear. So glad you are working on this with your T. That has been helpful for me as well.

My DD has refused therapy for a very long time. She seems to be in a place to accept the resources being offered her for healing. She had to get down into a very low place for this to happen. Sadly I seemed to spiral down there with her and am working my way out. Keep yourself strong and grounded.

I will be keeping you and all your family in my thoughts and prayers. Let us know how things are going.

qcr

[suchsadness]

Well... .it's done! 

I sent a short text to my sil saying this "Hi SIL. We just want to let you know that we are sending a package with gs's birthday gift and some Halloween treats.  We would like to call him and wish him a happy birthday on the 28th, does he still have the same phone number?"

SOO - guess we will see how that goes.  We did not hear anything back last night, and last time I sent a text to him he never answered at all.  It is what it is, we sent the package today, will try to call on his birthday... .and that's it.  I have no idea how my dd will deal with this - but like my T said, I can't worry about that.  I plan on texting dd on the 28th and tell her that I am thinking of her and gs and wish both of them a good day.

[Rapt Reader]

Hey, suchsadness... .

I think you did a very good job with this, and I truly hope that something good comes out of it. But you acted as the mature adult, and did all you could in a non-controlling way. You really handled this well!

In the meantime, while waiting for your SIL to text back, maybe this will give you the time to read the links that lbjnltx gave you above. Also, while waiting to figure out your next step, you can check out the links to the right-hand side of this page... .I've found that when I am stressed out or confused as to what to do next with the BPD loved ones in my life, I detach from the situation and start reading Lessons, Articles and Workshops on this site specifically chosen by me for my exact concerns or troubles. I always find answers I need... .

If you aren't sure which ones to pick, you can start at the top of the list of links (at "Start Here!" and work your way down the page. I promise you, you won't be disappointed in what you can learn and how much better you will feel!

Please keep us updated... .I so much want to hear that you hear back (in a good way!) from your SIL. Good luck! 

[suchsadness]

Thanks Rapt Reader... .I just got a response from the ex sil.  Here it is:

"He does have the same number.  When you have a chance this week to call and speak with me when you're at home I would appreciate it.  There's some things that I feel need to be discussed."

My sister just advised me to send the messages on to my T.  We actually see the same one, and she has told both of us that she would read any emails, texts, etc. any time.  So I am not going to do anything until I hear back from her... .but any ideas any of you have I would appreciate as well.

[Rapt Reader]

Suchsadness, I'm so happy you heard back! And, it wasn't negative; his reconfirming your grandson's phone number was a kind act, and possibly his offer to discuss the situation with him is also kind and not negative in any way.

I hope things get better for all of you... .Please let us know how it goes. If your therapist is offering to help you with navigating these types of encounters, then I think passing this on to her is wise. It never hurts to have an uninvolved third party to give us insights, and a professional is even better!

This sounds like you are making progress... .being calmer and using your "wise mind" seems to be helping you achieve what you would like. Good job!

I'd still read the information at the links to the right side of the margin here as you carefully move along; there is really very good info there to help you. Here's something that, even if you've read it before, would be good as a refresher course is getting centered: Radical Acceptance for family members. I know that learning how to do this constantly in my life has made my relationship with every loved one with BPD in my life so much better!

[suchsadness]

Yes - taking a slow "wise mind" approach has helped a lot... .and I'm sure the medication doesn't hurt either     But I sure feel a lot calmer than I have been, even since last week.  I sent the information on to my T and heard at lunch time from her office - she wants me to come in tomorrow morning, so I feel better knowing we can make some sort of plan on how to handle the whole situation.  Rapt Reader, like you said, it is good that I heard back from him, he did confirm the number and didn't say don't call.  I am hoping that things will work out - without doing something that is going to trigger my dd.  I will definitely read through the information you suggested as well... .thanks so much.  This site is such a lifesaver.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[TopsyTurvy]

Suchsadness, I am glad you are being given the opportunity to reconnect with your grandsons. I can understand your worry about upsetting your dd. You may be right about your exsil wanting to use you to get back at her in some way. But, going through him seems to be the only way you will have a r/s with the grandkids. It does not seem like your dd will change her mind about you seeing them any time soon. Hopefully, exsil has his kids' best interest at heart and just realizes what an important presence you can be in their lives. I would just keep all conversations focused on the children and not be drawn into any talk about your dd.

Your therapist seems like she is giving you good advice. I am glad you are finding some relief from your anxiety through medication. I have never taken an anti-anxiety medication but I have been giving it a lot of thought lately. Good to know it is working for you!  I think it will make it a lot easier for you to make good decisions when you are not so anxious. I am glad you have sent this last message to your T. It must be a relief to have someone to help you navigate through this situation.

I will put you and your family in my prayers. I hope the future will allow you and your grandsons to develop a closer  relationship. I am sure their lives will be enriched by having their loving grandparents around.

[suchsadness]

I just wanted to post a short update - on my T visit this morning.  I am so glad I went in, and feel so good about it.  We talked about keeping some boundaries on the discussion with my SIL, centered around the grandsons.  She is stressing that the most important thing with him is keeping lines of communication open because he is the path to the boys.  I said I am concerned about my dd taking her anger out on the boys when she finds out that we have access to them (if this is part of what my SIL wants to discuss) and she said it is my SIL's responsibility to see that they are protected.  I am not going to be surprised if he also wants to talk to me about his getting full custody and having supervised visits at this point.  I know in my heart that this would be in my grandsons best interest... .but hard to know how my dd will feel and respond if this is the case.  Maybe it would be the thing that finally pushes her into seeking some help... .one can always hope, right?

[suchsadness]

TopsyTurvy... .looks like I could have saved some money on the therapy visit, you are saying the same thing in your reply     Have you thought about being a T?  Thank you so much for reinforcing what she (T) said this morning. 

[brillo]

Sorry to hear you are dealing with contact issues with your grandchildren as well.

Grandchildren really add a whole other dimension to this, don't they?  It's been very painful for me to watch the turmoil they have been subjected to. 

Since I have been embroiled in custody issues the past year (ordered by the court, not my idea!) - my advice is to stay neutral with your SIL.  Neither support nor condemn. I know that's easier said than done.  But it is ultimately his decision and would be easier for you if you could tell your daughter in all honesty that it was solely his decision.

It is unlikely that you would be involved in a custody eval anyway.  The only reason the court ordered myself and my husband into the current evaluation (#3!) is that his APD son specifically requested the court to ban the grandchildren from ever seeing us, so the judge ordered the evaluator to look into that.  Evaluators do not have to talk to relatives such as grandparents unless there is a court order.  Usually they don't talk to relatives as they are biased - they put a lot more stock into what other professionals say, such as teachers, therapists, etc.

[suchsadness]

Thanks Brillo for your input.  Yes - it is SOO hard when those innocent children get involved, especially when they are used a "pawns".  I feel so bad for them and then to have us removed from their lives has been awful.  I keep hoping they don't think we have abandoned them  :'(  Every time we (my dh and I) spend time with them they say they don't want to leave us... .it tears my heart apart, they are so honest and innocent. 

I know I need to stay neutral, but my dd won't see it that way for sure.  The only thing that I have to hold on to for hope is that I have heard through the grapevine/web that she told my SIL that she doesn't blame him for seeking full custody and that she would do the same if she was in his shoes.  I realize though that it is one thing to say it and another to accept it. 

I will be calling my SIL tonight - so we will see how it goes... .wish me luck.  Thanks.

[suchsadness]

Brillo - how did that go in the courts, were you banned from seeing your grandchildren by the judge?  I hope for your sake it didn't turn out that way and you do have some contact with them. 

My dd was threatening that if we went to court to exercise our "grandparent rights" (their state has grandparent rights) that she would tell the judge how horrible we are and how it is my fault that she has BPD... .etc.  It has been almost 5 months since she was raging and saying these things - we decided not to pursue it at this time, and I have no idea what ex SIL will be saying about it tonight.

[brillo]

Brillo - how did that go in the courts, were you banned from seeing your grandchildren by the judge?  I hope for your sake it didn't turn out that way and you do have some contact with them. 

My dd was threatening that if we went to court to exercise our "grandparent rights" (their state has grandparent rights) that she would tell the judge how horrible we are and how it is my fault that she has BPD... .etc.  It has been almost 5 months since she was raging and saying these things - we decided not to pursue it at this time, and I have no idea what ex SIL will be saying about it tonight.

Once APD son put in request to ban us from seeing the grandchildren - the judge said we had to go completely NC until the evaluation.  That lasted for 4 months.

The evaluator found that all his allegations about us (they were pretty horrible - I don't even want to go into that... .) were unfounded and recommended that the grandkids be allowed to see us again, including visiting us out of state.

We were ecstatic until the hearing happened and APD son rejected evaluation and asked for a new one.  So now they are onto evaluation #4.  He's paying $30k for it.

We've never heard from that private evaluator and no idea what is going on with the case right now.

As far as Grandparent's Rights go... .they are a joke.

The only time the courts have upheld them is when the grandparent had been a caretaker for a long time or when the grandparent's child was deceased.

In other words, if you had had custody of your grandchildren for a while, and then your daughter or SIL got custody again and said the grandkids couldn't see you, the court will generally find that it is in the best interests of the kids to see you because you have a parental relationship with them.

If your daughter was deceased and SIL said you couldn't see your grandkids, the court would also step in and order it in that case.

Otherwise, the courts stay out of it.  The courts do not like to interfere in the rights of parents to raise their kids however they want, which includes deciding who the kids can and cannot see.

[suchsadness]

Thanks for the information Brillo.  We have also heard that is how it is with the courts and grandparent rights. 

Update on our situation:  I went to see my T before responding to my SIL's request for me to call him.  We discussed the fact that he is the pathway to our gs's... .and I would call him to discuss whatever it was he wanted to discuss.  I texted him and asked if there was a good time to call that night (Thursday).  He did not respond.  Sunday I just tried calling him on the phone and he didn't answer and didn't return my call.  BUT when I came in to work on Monday morning there was an email from my DD saying: "You can call gs.  I don't care anymore.  Do what you want, be in their lives.  Whatever."  I sent an email response saying "Thank you - I am thinking of both of you today and remembering what a miracle his (gs's) life is (he was born at 25 weeks gestation with many complications and no life-long problems).  I love you both."

Before I had a chance to call gs on the phone yesterday after work, they had tried calling me.  I have to believe my SIL told my dd that he was going to allow us to be in the gs's lives and there was nothing she could do to stop that.  So I did end up wishing him a happy birthday... .and hopefully this is the start of reconnecting.  I thanked my SIL via text - and am hopeful that things will get better.  This is the 2nd time my dd has contacted me in the last couple of weeks after 5 months.  Baby steps!

[qcarolr]

suchsadness - awesome. Yes, baby steps. So hard to find quiet patience for the process sometimes. Thanks for letting us know how things are going.

qcr

[Rapt Reader]

Hey, suchsadness... .

I agree with qcarolr: this is awesome news! And may be even bigger than a "baby step". Maybe you should change your name to "goodbyesadness" or "findinghappiness" now... . 

You are really using your wisemind in this endeavor, and things are looking up. Please continue to keep us in the loop. It sounds like you're getting this under control. And in the long run, if that's the best it can be, then appreciating it is very good for your stress levels. Good job!

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[suchsadness]

Thanks Rapt Reader and qcarolr!  Yes it does seem better than baby steps, guess I'm just a little hesitant to get too excited - been let down and abused so many times by dd's moods.  On the other hand, I know that she is not the one calling the shots at this point.  I'm taking it slow and steady... .using my "wisemind" approach toward all people involved.  Thanks everyone for listening to my situation and sharing your thoughts and/or opinions.  It always helps so much to know others who deal with this disorder are here to support each other.