Why can there never be a conversation

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello All,

It's me. SadInSweden, again. I'm still in Sweden. Having moved here 18 months ago, I'm still for whatever reason holding on to hope. It's Christmas and of course, those with mental illness face challenging times. So do we as non-BPDs.

So for some months now it's been pretty calm. Not perfect by any means but the physical abuse has stopped. The mental and emotional abuse has not but I really felt that I was dealing with things better. I've started to work and my business is becoming successful here. I've made friends and that is always welcome.

This week my BPD got outraged with me because... .well, I don't actually know why. I guess because I asked him to pick up milk after work which then brought on an on-slot of insults and chaos. I left him alone. I was proud of myself for giving him the space he needed. I turned my eyes from the character assassination that is now a part of my life. I have set boundaries and have been firm about maintaining them.

It's been a week of hell. I've tried and tried and still 5 days later, he's raging at me. Finally tonight he calms down. I ask if we can please have a conversation to try and solve any issues. He gets really angry, hisses and snarls at me but he let's me in the room he's locked himself into.

I try to have a conversation. This does not go well. There is hissing and snarling and insults and threats. He blames me for everything. I have a mental disorder, he tells me. Because of me he is unable to live his life in peace. I need to leave and go back to the U.S. (I can't tell you how many times I've heard this... .perhaps hundreds in the last 18 months. It's confusing. Am I suppose to make a life here in Sweden? Or am I packing to go home? It changes every week.)

I sit calmly and listen to his emotional outbursts. He tells me I'm "ballastic". He asks me to leave the room. So I do.

I am unable to express myself or try to find a solution to our problems. He will not listen. He can't listen. He can't reason. He can't negotiate. He can only blame me for everything.

I think one of the things which breaks my heart the most is his absolute lack of understanding for what I do for a living. I am a writer and a photographer. I LOVE my job. I'm great at my job. I scored a corporate account here in Sweden, which is almost unheard of for immigrants in this country. My job is fun and wonderful. I also work from home.

He works doing construction. He works in the cold and in the heat of summer. He's PISSED every week at me because (I think... .I honestly don' t know, but I know this is a HUGE issue) I have a great job that I love. I work from home and to him this means my job is meaningless. To him, I sleep all day and he has told me this repeatedly. He expects that I should do, I don't know, some kind of other job which he approves of? As well as do the housework, take out the garbage, mop the floors, do the grocery shopping, AND learn a new culture and a new language. (I am presently enrolled in school learning Swedish... .I love it btw) but this is a lot of expectations and believe me I've tried to rise to the expectations. It doesn't matter to him. To him I am worthless and he is a hard working man. My job was something I NEVER thought would become an issue between us ... .before moving here I had his total support. I raised two boys, three cats, kept a house, and a car as a single parent based on my job.

This is what caused the fight this week. He can't understand why I couldn't stop working (I was working on deadline) and go get milk.  I can't understand why he is so upset because he is already in the city and only needs to stop in quickly at a convenience store. He says he's a hard working man and "after all I'm just hanging out at home".

So I try tonight to come to some sort of solution... .but ... .Some sort of understanding.

I just want to cry and cry because ... .there can be no conversation. No discussion. No coming together in agreement. No consensus.

Why can there be no conversation? Will I never have this?

I don't know what to do now? Do I start (again) looking for flights back home? Do I just ignore him? Do I just sit here and try to heal my broken heart alone? I'm at a loss because I don't think we will ever find a solution.

[sadinsweden]

Hello All,

It's me. SadInSweden, again. I'm still in Sweden. Having moved here 18 months ago, I'm still for whatever reason holding on to hope. It's Christmas and of course, those with mental illness face challenging times. So do we as non-BPDs.

So for some months now it's been pretty calm. Not perfect by any means but the physical abuse has stopped. The mental and emotional abuse has not but I really felt that I was dealing with things better. I've started to work and my business is becoming successful here. I've made friends and that is always welcome.

This week my BPD got outraged with me because... .well, I don't actually know why. I guess because I asked him to pick up milk after work which then brought on an on-slot of insults and chaos. I left him alone. I was proud of myself for giving him the space he needed. I turned my eyes from the character assassination that is now a part of my life. I have set boundaries and have been firm about maintaining them.

It's been a week of hell. I've tried and tried and still 5 days later, he's raging at me. Finally tonight he calms down. I ask if we can please have a conversation to try and solve any issues. He gets really angry, hisses and snarls at me but he let's me in the room he's locked himself into.

I try to have a conversation. This does not go well. There is hissing and snarling and insults and threats. He blames me for everything. I have a mental disorder, he tells me. Because of me he is unable to live his life in peace. I need to leave and go back to the U.S. (I can't tell you how many times I've heard this... .perhaps hundreds in the last 18 months. It's confusing. Am I suppose to make a life here in Sweden? Or am I packing to go home? It changes every week.)

I sit calmly and listen to his emotional outbursts. He tells me I'm "ballastic". He asks me to leave the room. So I do.

I am unable to express myself or try to find a solution to our problems. He will not listen. He can't listen. He can't reason. He can't negotiate. He can only blame me for everything.

I think one of the things which breaks my heart the most is his absolute lack of understanding for what I do for a living. I am a writer and a photographer. I LOVE my job. I'm great at my job. I scored a corporate account here in Sweden, which is almost unheard of for immigrants in this country. My job is fun and wonderful. I also work from home.

He works doing construction. He works in the cold and in the heat of summer. He's PISSED every week at me because (I think... .I honestly don' t know, but I know this is a HUGE issue) I have a great job that I love. I work from home and to him this means my job is meaningless. To him, I sleep all day and he has told me this repeatedly. He expects that I should do, I don't know, some kind of other job which he approves of? As well as do the housework, take out the garbage, mop the floors, do the grocery shopping, AND learn a new culture and a new language. (I am presently enrolled in school learning Swedish... .I love it btw) but this is a lot of expectations and believe me I've tried to rise to the expectations. It doesn't matter to him. To him I am worthless and he is a hard working man. My job was something I NEVER thought would become an issue between us ... .before moving here I had his total support. I raised two boys, three cats, kept a house, and a car as a single parent based on my job.

This is what caused the fight this week. He can't understand why I couldn't stop working (I was working on deadline) and go get milk.  I can't understand why he is so upset because he is already in the city and only needs to stop in quickly at a convenience store. He says he's a hard working man and "after all I'm just hanging out at home".

So I try tonight to come to some sort of solution... .but ... .Some sort of understanding.

I just want to cry and cry because ... .there can be no conversation. No discussion. No coming together in agreement. No consensus.

Why can there be no conversation? Will I never have this?

I don't know what to do now? Do I start (again) looking for flights back home? Do I just ignore him? Do I just sit here and try to heal my broken heart alone? I'm at a loss because I don't think we will ever find a solution.

[Hopeless777]

I really feel for you. Please know you're not alone. I'm 28+ years in a relationship that turned into hell a year ago. Conversation? It's impossible. BPDs are not rational. There can be no conversation with a normal person. My BPDw wants to "talk" all the time. I stay home and work as well so we're together 24/7. I now refuse to talk because there can be no resolution resulting from the conversation. Just the same thing, round and round and round. Hang in there... .I'm 80% out the door after 28 years and two kids. Very sad but I became lost and now I have to find myself. I hope you do the same.

[whirlwinded]

Excuse any typos or punctuations. I'm sitting in my car on my phone.  My situation is very similar especially the working aspect of it. I also work from home 4 days a week on my internet business but I can't keep it together to continue to work at this moment. My guy also does not think I work so I got a job working 3 days a week and work the other 4 when I can sneak it in.  He has made rules for me such as work 9 to 5 and I'm not allowed to do any business in front of him. I can't work in any room but my office and cannot answer the phone regardless of that it is 5 pm in NY and 2pm in California. He too has a hard labor job. He expects since in doing absolutely nothing all day that dinner be cooked. He complains that he does not eat a home cooked meal at least 6 days a week meanwhile he works nights at least 3 nights during the week and is not home to eat it but has conveniently forgot that part which baffles me.  He also did not want to communicate which i accepted the quiteness to the tongue lashing as everything was my fault including his back pains and the weather. Anyway my suggestion to you is learn how to approach him and communicate effectively a d if he does not want to leave him alone and try again another day. If hes not ready to talk and you want to youll only get him angrier .I stayed quiet til I could not take it and made a mistake and did not communicate in BPD language.  There was hell to pay for it.  I wound up leaving physically but mentally I am there. I have been living and breathing BPD and am actually sorry I left because I was really not ready to go and now I know he feels like i abandoned him.  I'm not saying to stay or go. I'm just saying that the situation is overwhelming as you know so don't act in haste or because momentarily you cannot take it. I did not think my life could get any worse than it had been but it is. I gave all my  furniture away. My belongings are at friends homes my sisters hone and my moms home. I had to give my animals away to my sister and friends. I was not prepared and just ran with no plan. My mental state has gotten worse from the chaos and hurtful words he spewed upon me. Honey you seem to have it together.  I know its painful. Words cut like knives and they are good at penetrating the heart.  Its about you and your children and your animals. Again my advice read as many books and info so as to not trigger.  Even if you leave at least you will be a pro at spotting this disorder. My prayers are with you.  If just only... .I say this phrase all the time

[MammaMia]

Sadinsweden

It sounds to me as if you have a good understanding of what sets your BPDbf off.  He may be jealous that you are in a job you love and sometimes (as with any job) it can take precedence over his needs.

He refuses to have a conversation with you, because he is angry and self-invested.  All he wants to do is vent.  He does not understand the kind of deadlines you deal with or the amount of concentration your job requires.

Physical labor is hard and dangerous.  It is a competitive and difficult way to make a living. Superiors often make demands that are almost physically impossible, and can be crude and threatening to get what they want.  Usually, there is little job security or appreciation.

Did he overreact... .yes.  Would he prefer you to have an office away from home where you are not available 8 to 10 hours a day?  Why should you have to give up a job you love because he is unhappy?  Why should you move home?

None of the above will fix what makes him unhappy.  Perhaps explaining that to him would help IF you can get him to listen.  

[love4meNOTu]

Hi Sad - I'm going to try to translate for you... .

Hello All,

It's me. SadInSweden, again. I'm still in Sweden. Having moved here 18 months ago, I'm still for whatever reason holding on to hope. It's Christmas and of course, those with mental illness face challenging times. So do we as non-BPDs.

So for some months now it's been pretty calm. Not perfect by any means but the physical abuse has stopped.

This is was/ unacceptable. If there is violence you should remove yourself immediately to safety.

The mental and emotional abuse has not but I really felt that I was dealing with things better. I've started to work and my business is becoming successful here. I've made friends and that is always welcome.

What an incredible accomplishment!

This week my BPD got outraged with me because... .well, I don't actually know why. I guess because I asked him to pick up milk after work which then brought on an on-slot of insults and chaos. I left him alone. I was proud of myself for giving him the space he needed. I turned my eyes from the character assassination that is now a part of my life. I have set boundaries and have been firm about maintaining them.

You asked him to do something that he, as a two year old, did not want to do. You are there to take care of him not the other way around. He is entitled to order you about, not the other way around.

It's been a week of hell. I've tried and tried and still 5 days later, he's raging at me. Finally tonight he calms down. I ask if we can please have a conversation to try and solve any issues. He gets really angry, hisses and snarls at me but he let's me in the room he's locked himself into.

You haven't given in to his demands of entitlement, you seem to be functioning very well and have not broken down so the verbal and emotional abuse escalates in response to this, because surely, you will soon cave.

I try to have a conversation. This is what adults do, not adults with the emotional perceptions of two year olds.

This does not go well. There is hissing and snarling and insults and threats. He blames me for everything. I have a mental disorder, he tells me. Projection Because of me he is unable to live his life in peace. I need to leave and go back to the U.S. (I can't tell you how many times I've heard this... .perhaps hundreds in the last 18 months. It's confusing. Am I suppose to make a life here in Sweden? Or am I packing to go home? It changes every week.) I love you, I hate you, go away

I sit calmly and listen to his emotional outbursts. He tells me I'm "ballastic". Projection He asks me to leave the room. So I do. You are doing what he asks you to do, he is in control in this situation

I am unable to express myself or try to find a solution to our problems. He will not listen. He can't listen. He can't reason. He can't negotiate. He can only blame me for everything. Again, projection.

I think one of the things which breaks my heart the most is his absolute lack of understanding for what I do for a living. I am a writer and a photographer. I LOVE my job. I'm great at my job. I scored a corporate account here in Sweden, which is almost unheard of for immigrants in this country. My job is fun and wonderful. I also work from home.

You are not supposed to love anything more than you love him, pay attention to anything more than him, or make him feel insecure because you are an accomplished woman, and he is not an accomplished man

He works doing construction. He works in the cold and in the heat of summer. He's PISSED every week at me because (I think... .I honestly don' t know, but I know this is a HUGE issue) I have a great job that I love. I work from home and to him this means my job is meaningless. To him, I sleep all day and he has told me this repeatedly. He expects that I should do, I don't know, some kind of other job which he approves of? As well as do the housework, take out the garbage, mop the floors, do the grocery shopping, You are his slave AND learn a new culture and a new language. (I am presently enrolled in school learning Swedish... .I love it btw) but this is a lot of expectations and believe me I've tried to rise to the expectations. It doesn't matter to him. To him I am worthless and he is a hard working man. My job was something I NEVER thought would become an issue between us ... .before moving here I had his total support. I raised two boys, three cats, kept a house, and a car as a single parent based on my job. These are amazing accomplishments

This is what caused the fight this week. He can't understand why I couldn't stop working (I was working on deadline) and go get milk.  I can't understand why he is so upset because he is already in the city and only needs to stop in quickly at a convenience store. He says he's a hard working man and "after all I'm just hanging out at home". He does not care a fig about what you care about, never will

So I try tonight to come to some sort of solution... .but ... .Some sort of understanding.

This will not happen. I'm sorry

I just want to cry and cry because ... .there can be no conversation. No discussion. No coming together in agreement. No consensus. No, never



Why can there be no conversation? Will I never have this?

Because he has BPD, and cannot interact in a normal, human, mutual give and take fashion. He cannot do so, to expect him to do so is like expecting pigs to fly.

I don't know what to do now? Do I start (again) looking for flights back home? Do I just ignore him? Do I just sit here and try to heal my broken heart alone? I'm at a loss because I don't think we will ever find a solution.

You have a great job, and are making friends. What about a place of your own? Stay and enjoy for a time? You don't need him, you never did.

He was sick long before you came along, and will be sick long after you leave

[Surnia]

  Sadinsweden

I am sorry to hear about your struggles - in the same time good to see you again here. 

I can relate with your deep frustration about the lack of satisfying conversation. Little questions like buying some milk became incredible huge and full of blaming and raging... .

I agree with others here, there is a lot of projection from his side and he is not able to see your work.

You are not supposed to love anything more than you love him, pay attention to anything more than him, or make him feel insecure because you are an accomplished woman, and he is not an accomplished man

My thoughts too.

If you would really love him, you would buy the milk.

I am  soo familiar with all this. 

[sadinsweden]

First let me say that I'm not completely familiar with how all the formatting works on this board yet. So, I hope I'm doing this quoting thing correctly. I'm also so thankful that so many of you offered suggestions, support and even that translation love4meNOTu... .WOW!

My BPD is out for the afternoon running errands. This means sitting at the bar drinking beer. But whatever, maybe not cause at this point he's running out of money (read here, yes, I support us when this happens... .I have to say that he does use his paycheck to pay the rent and bills, like clockwork, but the rest of his income is given to the local pub whereby it's then my turn to support us for the rest of the month. More on this later... .but for now I want to address the messages I see here. Please forgive if I must away abruptly, but you understand why. I'll be back.

Very sad but I became lost and now I have to find myself. I hope you do the same.

Thanks for this Hopeless777. I think the thing that gets me thru most days is the knowledge that I am NOT as bad as he paints me. In some crazy weird way, his character assassination has made me more self confident. Let me say, it's sort of like I'm embracing my inner Viking and saying to him (in my mind only), "Screw you. I know who I am and I'm not what you are telling me I am." I know me (still have a lot of work to do here but yes ... .I know I'm not the evil person he paints me as... .so there's that).

I too feel very lost sometimes... .Very sad. But after some hours or days of grieving, I am able to pick myself up and reclaim ME! This has gotten much better as now instead of taking days to recover, it is usually only a matter of hours. Then I get busy. I write. I do yoga (really really good for you). I go to the city and take photos, or shop, or buy myself a glass of wine. I make ToDo lists with all the stuff I want or need to do for myself or my business. This is my self comfort measure.

And now, because each time we go thru this, I become more firmly entrenched in separating myself emotionally for him (this I find tragic but here we are)... .so I spend more time reading books at night (which I love), watching the shows on my computer that I want to watch ... .I am just maintaining a low profile and working on my own requirements.

The only thing I wish I could do is stop the ruminating. Oh god ... .this kills me and it makes me very frustrated with myself. That is where the book reading and tv watching is a life saver... .also to be with other people. But when alone... .ruminate ruminate ruminate. I need help with this.

Hopeless777, I wish you the best. We are all here for you. Thank you for your support and your comment. 

[bouchon226]

This sounds so familiar!  Ah yes, the "talking" that my husband wants to do daily - he's relentless.  When I say that's all we do is talk about our issues, he says we don't talk about them, that's why they don't get fixed.  The reality is they don't get fixed because he won't calm down long enough to see through the ideas we've talked about as a solution or the ideas we've had therapists give us for communicating better.  Communication is futile.  Round and round and round… yes yes yes!  Sometimes in the middle of the conversation (if there is one) I point out how we have gone in a circle.  And guess what?  Every time we speak I note that we have gone in a circle.  I think some part of him has realized that I am right, that having a conversation with him is like being in a hamster wheel that won't stop.  That's what trying to tell him this marriage is over is like - round and round and he still doesn't listen, and says he knows there's hope.  I'm treading lightly since we are business partners, otherwise, I would have had to step away from this chaos a long time ago.  You will find yourself. Once you have peace and quiet around you, you will be able to think again.  We are not living together right now and I am so happy here alone (well with 2 dogs).  Wishing you all the best and most of all ... serenity!

I really feel for you. Please know you're not alone. I'm 28+ years in a relationship that turned into hell a year ago. Conversation? It's impossible. BPDs are not rational. There can be no conversation with a normal person. My BPDw wants to "talk" all the time. I stay home and work as well so we're together 24/7. I now refuse to talk because there can be no resolution resulting from the conversation. Just the same thing, round and round and round. Hang in there... .I'm 80% out the door after 28 years and two kids. Very sad but I became lost and now I have to find myself. I hope you do the same.

[sadinsweden]

It's so impossible! Sometimes I wish I could get my own apartment. Be single again (I would not cross the street to be with a man now, let alone cross the Atlantic), develop my creative pursuits, do my writing, and live in a place where the rules don't always keep changing.

So yesterday, I headed out to do an errand in the afternoon. As I was leaving, my BPD walks in the door. "Hi," he says in a very good mood. I'm completely taken aback. I say hi and out the door I go. He asks me where I'm going and if I'll be back soon. I really figure this is because he has made the decision to break up and wants to tell me so. (Ok... .that would break my heart but really... .I'd be better off.) So I run my errand. Come home and he's happy as a clam. He greets me at the door and asks if I want to do Christmas decorating with him. I'm shocked. I just can't change mood directions that fast. "Ok," I say, for lack of anything else to say. And then he says to me ... .Ready? Wait for it. He says to me "So are we ok now?" I just don't even know what universe I'm in at this point, but my response to him is "I don't know. You tell me. You're the one who has been angry for a week."  He doesn't respond but gets me a cup of coffee and starts telling me about his day. Me? I sit there feeling like my brain is imploding. Of course, no mention of the last week. No apology. It's like it never happened ... .but if he does have a recollection of it, I'm sure he thinks it was my fault and I'm the crazy one, but he's willing to forgive and forget.

So once again, there we are. There is no conversation. No solution. Of course, there can't be a solution because... .I'm living in non-solution world!

I have done so well establishing boundaries and controlling my voice ... .but this stuff, I just don't know how to deal with this stuff.

[sadinsweden]

I also work from home 4 days a week on my internet business but I can't keep it together to continue to work at this moment. My guy also does not think I work so I got a job working 3 days a week and work the other 4 when I can sneak it in.  He has made rules for me such as work 9 to 5 and I'm not allowed to do any business in front of him. I can't work in any room but my office and cannot answer the phone regardless of that it is 5 pm in NY and 2pm in California.

Wow Whirlwinded! I'm so sorry to hear this. My BPD doesn't set rules on how or when I can work... .thank goodness because that would be a fight to the death. He's quite good about not interfering with  my business, but that is because I don't think he actually thinks I have one ... .which is, as I've already said, heart breaking to me.

Having said this, about him not understanding my work, I can also say that there have been times when I've been faced with some sort of creative block and he's been great. Very supportive. In fact, once he strongly urged me to go on this photo walk we had here in the city. I just wasn't feeling it but he was so sweet, went with me to support me, and those photos were some of the best I've taken all year. So there is that.

But I think what my BPD might need to SEE is me actually working. He maybe needs to witness me making phone calls, writing at my desk, putting together paperwork. I don't know... .maybe not. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference. But we will have this chance come Dec 19th because he will be laid off for the Winter (help me now)

As for you, I can only suggest, that perhaps you might want to look into some of the articles here on this site about setting boundaries. They are very empowering but boy you have to stand firm. I will tell you that when you start doing this, there will be big battles, but you will make some ground way. And in my opinion, when it comes to your job, your living, and your security... .boundaries are very important.

[sadinsweden]

You have a great job, and are making friends. What about a place of your own? Stay and enjoy for a time? You don't need him, you never did.

He was sick long before you came along, and will be sick long after you leave

Hi Love4meNOTu. Thank you for your translation here. Very clarifying. A place of my own would be FANTASTIC and I believe even a solution. I've also considered an "office" type live in/away space for writing and creative solitude ... .perhaps a studio of sorts. The problem with this at the moment is that as a new "immigrant" here in Sweden, I have no credit line yet. Also because I am a "love immigrant", meaning I came to Sweden due to an engagement or love relationship, if that relationship ends before I receive a "permanent" residence permit (usually two years), I MUST return to my home country. I'm not really sure what my options are at the moment, but this is something I will check into.

[sadinsweden]

Just wanting to thank everyone here for their support! 

[bouchon226]

Hi Sad,

I can totally understand your dilemma!  I have a sister-in-law from South Africa and stayed with (eventually marrying) my brother-in-law so she could stay here in the states, they had a 30 day window to make a decision about it.  I think looking back my brother-in-law certainly must regret that fast decision (she is rude, mean, taking advantage of him, etc etc).  The feeling of having to leave what you just became accustomed to will throw a wrench in people's plan, as it is yours right now.  It's always so tricky when there is a circumstance that makes things a lot more complicated.  People so kindly offer advice not totally understanding the dynamics (we all do it, I realize how many times I offer advice and the advice won't work for that person because of an individual situation).  I own a business with my H and I'm trying to break away as 'quietly' as possible.  At first, a few of my friends and even my mom said "just leave him!"  They have no idea how tricky leaving him is since our company is what supports every bit of our lives.  I can not walk away from it after my years of constant dedication to the business.  I abandoned my medical sales career nearly 5 years ago for our company so my experience in the field I used to know is no longer recent or relevant.  Not to mention i HATED my job.  I cried every morning on the way to work.  I have to find a way to maintain our company and the challenge is working alongside my BPD H.  As many BPD, he is spiteful and resentful when he doesn't get his way.  He already text me and said he couldn't work with me if I was going to break up with him.  But due to the nature of our business, he will be working with me, through 2015 regardless.  He is not logical at times like this, I mean of course he isn't (hellloo BPD).  I have removed my heart from the situation, I no longer feel sadness.   I barely even feel anger or frustration about it, I am just keeping my eye on the prize (happy + single + business partners only).  Sorry I've rambled, I just totally understood your situation in the moment that you said as soon as they know in Sweden that you are no longer involved in the romantic relationship, back to your home land you go.  That will keep you somewhat 'trapped' in your current situation  :'(

[sadinsweden]

I have removed my heart from the situation, I no longer feel sadness.   

How did you do this? Because I'm sad to my soul.

Sorry I've rambled, I just totally understood your situation in the moment that you said as soon as they know in Sweden that you are no longer involved in the romantic relationship, back to your home land you go.  That will keep you somewhat 'trapped' in your current situation  :'(

No, don't apologize. I've appreciated hearing from you. And yeah ... ."trapped in my current situation". This is also what makes him feel scared or vulnerable. He believes/knows that I'm "stuck here with him".