Just Venting: Can They Listen or Do They Just Hear What They Want to Hear?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So I am just venting here so that I don't start chucking all the dishes in my cabinet at my H's head.  Probably safer to do this than start throwing things and marveling at the awesomeness of broken glass and his bleeding forehead. 

So I was on the phone with a client when he came downstairs, and he overheard only the tail end of the conversation.  Essentially, the story is that my client took on some pro bono work for a nonprofit, but they were going to pay me.  We talked about the group, the project -- it's an indie movie geared towards motivating kids in an inner city -- and I thought the nonprofit was a worthy one so I told them I would do the work pro bono as well.  It was a small project, not a big deal, and I do this often.  Two or three times a year I will take on a project for a nonprofit or other group and do it at no charge just as a way of giving back, I guess.  I have always done work pro bono for the Innocence Project and did a huge project on baseball Hall of Famers and it's always been part of my business model and philosophy.  So in other words, it's nothing new.  Been going on for a decade.  This client also is very, very good to me and pays me at triple my normal rate, so I more than make up for any pro bono work I do for them as a result. 

Anyway, when I hung up the phone he asked me how much money "we just lost out on."  I said, "We didn't really lose out on anything because I never expected to be paid for it.  I told you I was doing this one pro bono."  He kept pushing on how much money it would have been.  I said, "I don't know, eight, nine hundred bucks."  WOW, he started knocking stuff off the counter, started screaming at how stupid I am to do EIGHT GRAND worth of work for free, must be nice that I can work for free while he goes to a "real" job, et cetera.  Of course, he doesn't complain when I make more in a day than he makes in two weeks when this client sends normal work over.   

What the heck?  First of all, there's a huge difference between eight and nine hundred bucks and eight and nine grand.  I have no clue where he got that from -- no, I do; he made it up in his head.  Let me say that the nature of my work is project based and some pay a few grand per project but I have never taken on a $8,000 project.  They just don't exist in my line of work.  And he was just so volatile and hateful and unreal considering HE was the one who was wrong. 

He just walked out, slamming the door as he left.  Whatever.  Idiot. 

So do they not listen or do they just hear what they want to hear so that they can cause conflict over it? 

[karma_gal]

So I am just venting here so that I don't start chucking all the dishes in my cabinet at my H's head.  Probably safer to do this than start throwing things and marveling at the awesomeness of broken glass and his bleeding forehead. 

So I was on the phone with a client when he came downstairs, and he overheard only the tail end of the conversation.  Essentially, the story is that my client took on some pro bono work for a nonprofit, but they were going to pay me.  We talked about the group, the project -- it's an indie movie geared towards motivating kids in an inner city -- and I thought the nonprofit was a worthy one so I told them I would do the work pro bono as well.  It was a small project, not a big deal, and I do this often.  Two or three times a year I will take on a project for a nonprofit or other group and do it at no charge just as a way of giving back, I guess.  I have always done work pro bono for the Innocence Project and did a huge project on baseball Hall of Famers and it's always been part of my business model and philosophy.  So in other words, it's nothing new.  Been going on for a decade.  This client also is very, very good to me and pays me at triple my normal rate, so I more than make up for any pro bono work I do for them as a result. 

Anyway, when I hung up the phone he asked me how much money "we just lost out on."  I said, "We didn't really lose out on anything because I never expected to be paid for it.  I told you I was doing this one pro bono."  He kept pushing on how much money it would have been.  I said, "I don't know, eight, nine hundred bucks."  WOW, he started knocking stuff off the counter, started screaming at how stupid I am to do EIGHT GRAND worth of work for free, must be nice that I can work for free while he goes to a "real" job, et cetera.  Of course, he doesn't complain when I make more in a day than he makes in two weeks when this client sends normal work over.   

What the heck?  First of all, there's a huge difference between eight and nine hundred bucks and eight and nine grand.  I have no clue where he got that from -- no, I do; he made it up in his head.  Let me say that the nature of my work is project based and some pay a few grand per project but I have never taken on a $8,000 project.  They just don't exist in my line of work.  And he was just so volatile and hateful and unreal considering HE was the one who was wrong. 

He just walked out, slamming the door as he left.  Whatever.  Idiot. 

So do they not listen or do they just hear what they want to hear so that they can cause conflict over it? 

[Hopeless777]

I've worked out of the house for 15+ years. My SAHM uBPDw of 25+ years always comes into my home office to give me her business insights. Since her BPD became full blown about a year and a half ago, I have noticed a cognitive deterioration. She doesn't hear what she is explicitly told, or she simply cannot register/process it. This often leads to repeated questions about the same thing... . not misunderstandings of language. Often these become circular in nature. In any event, she always wants to be "helpful", but because of the cognitive problem, just winds up wasting a bunch of my time with my required needless explanations. My only solution this Monday was to move my rather extensive office out of the house permanently. The new-found peace has been exhilarating. I can't say whether your situation was a simple misunderstanding, but it does sound like he is hearing what he wants to hear in order to start (what I call) a freak-out. I am in the process of seeing whether being gone from 9AM to 7PM Monday through Friday makes a difference. For the last 4 days it certainly has... . but as we all know, the BPD tidal wave always returns. In any event, perhaps you need to work remotely. Maybe absence does make the heart grow fonder... . we'll see. Best to you.

[karma_gal]

I've worked out of the house for 15+ years. My SAHM uBPDw of 25+ years always comes into my home office to give me her business insights. Since her BPD became full blown about a year and a half ago, I have noticed a cognitive deterioration. She doesn't hear what she is explicitly told, or she simply cannot register/process it. This often leads to repeated questions about the same thing... . not misunderstandings of language. Often these become circular in nature. In any event, she always wants to be "helpful", but because of the cognitive problem, just winds up wasting a bunch of my time with my required needless explanations. My only solution this Monday was to move my rather extensive office out of the house permanently. The new-found peace has been exhilarating. I can't say whether your situation was a simple misunderstanding, but it does sound like he is hearing what he wants to hear in order to start (what I call) a freak-out. I am in the process of seeing whether being gone from 9AM to 7PM Monday through Friday makes a difference. For the last 4 days it certainly has... . but as we all know, the BPD tidal wave always returns. In any event, perhaps you need to work remotely. Maybe absence does make the heart grow fonder... . we'll see. Best to you.

Hopeless, how funny because I have considered moving my office out of my home to a brick and mortar location very seriously for probably the last year, as things have become worse and worse.  My only hesitation is wondering if being gone ten, 12 hours a day would create more issues.  Have you found that to be the case with your W?  Like, if I'm not immediately available to my H, he cannot handle it and freaks out completely.  The interruptions drive me insane, but it's like he needs to know that I'm here for every single one of his whims that comes up during the course of a day; that no matter what happens, I'm right up the steps, because he can't seem to handle anything on his own.  I know you're only a few days into it and probably won't be able to get a good handle on how your W is going to react for a while now, but how has she done this week with it?  Is she giving you crap about being gone?  Is her behavior any better or worse with you removing yourself from the home office where you aren't immediately available to her?  Is she more clingy when you do get home at night?  I have often likened my husband to a small child who freaks out if mom leaves the living room and goes into the kitchen.  He cries and cries until she comes back because if he can't see her, she must be gone forever.  That's my husband. 

I am going to have to Google to learn more about the cognitive distortion that you mention because that explains what has been going on here for the better part of the last year, year and a half.  I have to constantly repeat myself because he never seems to have heard me, understood me, or something.  We go round and round and round and it's getting exhausting.  I get soo angry because it's like he can't listen, can't pay attention, can't comprehend, and it turns into an issue all the time that requires endless hours trying to clarify.  I can't figure out how to minimize this so that I don't feel like blowing up on him every day, because it's exhausting.  Every little thing causes an issue. 

For instance, I tried a new recipe last night.  I asked him what he thought, did he like it.  He was like, "Well, I'm not really sure what I'm looking for."  You're not looking for anything, you idiot, you're supposed to chew it and tell me whether you like the damn pasta or not.  Of course, I didn't say that, but I sure thought it.  So I tell him, I just want to know if you like it or not.  He blows up because if I would just tell him what he's looking for, he can answer my question.  What the heck?  I don't even understand what the hell he's talking about.  I mean, every question I ask, he seems to respond completely inappropriately.  Everything I say, he either takes out of context, hears something that wasn't said or flat out makes something up in his head using three or four of the words I did say but in no way resemble what I actually said and rolls with it, creating more issues. 

He complains all the time that we can't communicate, but we can't communicate because he doesn't know how to communicate the way us normal folks think of it.  Every conversation becomes a circular one, lasts hours instead of moments, and we still don't get anywhere because his comprehension skills just suck.  Then with instances like today, we have to have a huge ordeal, with a full-fledged tantrum involved, over what amounts to nothing more than what he made up in his head. 

I really feel like I'm going crazy here, and I'm pretty sure he's driving this train. 

[Surrender]

I know what you are saying Karma_gal because I have encountered that the largest blow-ups stem from me not clarifying specifically a question that to me seems redundant and unnecessary. Yet for him it is enough to send him literally over the edge feeling like I'm toying with him and purposely making it impossible for him to just answer the question. At first I would speak to him like a normal person expecting the same mental processes and time after time after time I didn't get the 'normal' result but instead something entirely 'reactive' and it would always trigger him.

This 'communication' misinterpretation or miscommunication as he calls it, is his undoing and the one thing that in his mind is what triggers him instantly in what appears to be almost like a torture to him. Everything he feels seems greatly exaggerated and I'm left dealing with the fallout of his rage. He stays out of sorts in a heightened moody negative state for hours and then suddenly 'poof' he acts completely normal as though nothing happened.

We non's are still trying to process what just happened but if I let him know that I'm still upset and trying to figure that out it triggers him again and he flies into another rage fit. So I end up having to play the role of 'everything is normal' while mentally thinking to myself that this is seriously messed up.

And there he will be sitting down watching a comedy and laughing asking me to grab him some chips if I'm up. So as I walk to the kitchen my brain is screaming just trying to rationalize this all. I grab the chips and just go with the flow in the end.

I've had to learn a lot of things and I have to say that I suck at trying to keep it together and not rage myself. I have a long ways to go because my own temper is an issue when I feel like I'm being screwed with unjustly. In the land of BPD I've learned that I have my own triggers and he  seems to know what those are innately.

[PeppermintTea]

I know what you are saying Karma_gal because I have encountered that the largest blow-ups stem from me not clarifying specifically a question that to me seems redundant and unnecessary. Yet for him it is enough to send him literally over the edge feeling like I'm toying with him and purposely making it impossible for him to just answer the question.

My husband can be like this. He is getting much better now - therapy is helping.

I think particularly for my H this stems from how he was treated as a child. He was always trying to please/placate his parents so if they asked him something his immediate thought process was "what do they want me to say" not "what do I think about that". And there was always a judgement attached to what he said. He finds it hard even now to accept that I value his opinion even when it's different to mine.

Translated into our adult lives together this meant that when I would ask an seemingly simple question such as "do you like this new recipe" he couldn't just answer it. We would have to go through a whole process of him trying to figure out what the meaning behind my question was before we could get to the answer (if indeed there even was an answer). If I didn't or couldn't clarify the question he would melt down.

I usually post on Staying now as therapy and mindfulness training are helping my H massively. The key was that he wanted to change how he thinks. He still has melt downs and bad days (as we all do). He also still drives me nuts with his inability to think for himself at times. 

Best wishes,

PT

[Obibens]

There has definately got to be a cognative part to this.  My kids and I actually laugh about this one example all the time.  You know how sometimes you don't quite hear what someone is saying, so you try to figure it our in your mind.

Example: 

Me - "Help me wash the car"   

My kids "You want us to bring you a jar?"

Me wife "Why do you need to go to the store?"

huh?  And this happens so much, my kids actually joke about it.   My wife constantly says she is hard of hearing.  But she isn't.  I can whisper something in the next room that I don't want her to hear and she will get EVERY word.  Her hearing problem is she only hears what she wants to hear, or deems important enough to listen to.

[karma_gal]

I know what you are saying Karma_gal because I have encountered that the largest blow-ups stem from me not clarifying specifically a question that to me seems redundant and unnecessary. Yet for him it is enough to send him literally over the edge feeling like I'm toying with him and purposely making it impossible for him to just answer the question.

My husband can be like this. He is getting much better now - therapy is helping.

I think particularly for my H this stems from how he was treated as a child. He was always trying to please/placate his parents so if they asked him something his immediate thought process was "what do they want me to say" not "what do I think about that". And there was always a judgement attached to what he said. He finds it hard even now to accept that I value his opinion even when it's different to mine.

Translated into our adult lives together this meant that when I would ask an seemingly simple question such as "do you like this new recipe" he couldn't just answer it. We would have to go through a whole process of him trying to figure out what the meaning behind my question was before we could get to the answer (if indeed there even was an answer). If I didn't or couldn't clarify the question he would melt down.

I usually post on Staying now as therapy and mindfulness training are helping my H massively. The key was that he wanted to change how he thinks. He still has melt downs and bad days (as we all do). He also still drives me nuts with his inability to think for himself at times. 

Best wishes,

PT

Thanks for posting this because it's something I hadn't really thought of as a reason behind it.  I can totally see where he would have been afraid to give his opinion in his house growing up because his mother is... . a difficult woman.  He also spent a lot of time with his grandparents -- because mom was out chasing men because she couldn't stand to be alone -- and his grandfather is seriously the most difficult, overbearing dictator I have never met.  No one in the family will ever stand up to him because they're all terrified of him.  So you might be on to something here.

The thing I can't figure out, though, is why it's an issue now.  We've been together over a decade and it's really only gotten bad in the last year, year and a half.  Now that I type this I wonder if it's because *I* have changed in that time.  Nothing else would make sense.  I quit enabling him about a year and a half ago, started calling him out on his behavior, and so many things have been impossible since then because he is pushing back in so many ways.  I wonder if I remind him of his mother?  WOW that makes me shudder to think that there would be a similarity between she and I!  I can be difficult, but Lord help me if I'm ever that bad. 

I suppose that would explain his hesitancy to answer my question, for fear of what I will say in response.  But it doesn't really explain the "spontaneous stupid" syndrome that he seems to have come down with, where he misinterprets and mishears every word out of my mouth.  I'm going to sit with this for a while and think about it, because now that I think about it there has to be a correlation.  I mean, he's had issues over the years with needing clarity or forgetting and me needing to repeat myself but never to this degree.  I'm serious when I say that everything that comes out of my mouth becomes an issue.  We constantly have issues like the receipt example; or if I ask him how he slept, he will immediately get this attitude and tone and start yelling, "Why?  Why do you care how I slept?  How did *you* sleep?"  I can't tell you how many times in a given week I have to tell him, "Quit starting drama over something that never happened; something that you literally just made up in your head."  It's getting to the point where I can't be civil and that's why I'm struggling to figure out the "why" behind it and what I can do to tone things down because I can't take much more of this. 

I'm glad your H is in therapy and it seems to be helping.  How did it end up that he began therapy?  Was there something that happened in his life where he finally saw that he needed help, or did you somehow talk him into going and he's just done awesome by sticking with it?  I can get mine to go, but he quits after a couple sessions and refuses to do anything with it.  That's why more and more I wonder if this just isn't going to work.  He simply doesn't want help.  He would rather be the victim forever than solve his problems. 

[PeppermintTea]

Hi typing on my phone so excuse typos... .

Long story short I knew my H had mental health probs but he kept things steady till we had our D in 2010... . then our 2nd in 2011.  Then he started with the BPD behaviour big time because he didn't have my full attention. All the BPD behaviour! He almost wrecked us financially as well by running up my cards etc. He took an overdose May 2012. He recovered physically and I told him I couldn't live like it anymore. I found a residential supported facility and arranged to get him in. I told him I wanted a good life for me and the kids. I told him his mental wellbeing is not my responsibility... . I love him but I cannot be responsible for him. He had another breakdown then a switch seemed to throw and he started talking about tools to change how he thinks, help to manage his disorder etc. I let him sort all that out himself. I had my own therapy to get me to a place where I could accept what he is.

He' s been in therapy for about 9 months. I think he means it. He still does the BPD behaviour if things get on top of him... . I did a post on staying recently about it.

He had to hit bottom with the OD and I had to not rescue... . I tried but only when I walked away did he make that crucial decision.

He is also doing a lot of therapy work around his family... . his  upbringing is a big deal in understanding his BPD. He has to unlearn and re-learn a lot of stuff and I'm sure it will take a long time.

It's a hard road. I would be posting on family law and divorce board if he hadn't decided to work hard on personal change.

[Hopeless777]

Karma Gal:

5 days out of the house during working hours: Day 1-2, sorta ok; Day 3, oh no; Day 4 near freak out; Day 5 (today) I'm terrorized to go home. She told me to be home by 7 for dinner or else! She texted me earlier today to know if I'd be home for dinner and when. What? I thought that was made pretty clear to me! The only good thing I can say is that at least I don't have to speak with her or hear her during the day while I'm gone. Specific responses as follows:

"Like, if I'm not immediately available to my H, he cannot handle it and freaks out completely.  The interruptions drive me insane, but it's like he needs to know that I'm here for every single one of his whims that comes up during the course of a day; that no matter what happens, I'm right up the steps, because he can't seem to handle anything on his own."

Same here, and now too freakin' bad. She drove me out, so suffer.

"[H]ow has she done this week with it?  Is she giving you crap about being gone?  Is her behavior any better or worse with you removing yourself from the home office where you aren't immediately available to her?"

Constant crap about being gone. During the day I hit ignore on the phone calls and ignore her texts. But at home I get lectured constantly... . over 3 hours last night about how all men are cheaters, porn freaks, etc.

"Is she more clingy when you do get home at night?"

WOW... . I screwed up and had sex with her on Wednesday night... . big mistake! uBPDw: "why didn't you kiss me? why didn't you hold me? why didn't you tell me you love me?" She initiated at 3:00AM in the morning and my body parts worked... . I just wish it hadn't happened. She's constantly clinging and telling me she's loves me followed a few minutes later by obscene rants.

The circular arguments never end, even when I don't say a word. She'll just go on talking/yelling for hours at me. And then tell me we don't communicate. Communication in her world is very twisted and involves you listening and agreeing with her. My feelings are irrelevant.

The good thing about now having the office outside the home is that I have no risk. All the important stuff is remote and secure. All I have of value in the house are my clothes, which can easily be packed up into my car.

I will repost back to you as things progress. I have doubts that I make it through the weekend. Feels like I haven't slept in a year.

[PeppermintTea]

Sorry I hit send too soon... .

You are likely correct in that your change of attitude and approach has triggered this response in him. My H could keep it together till we had kids and my tolerance for his crap was halved! Also my attention was diverted away from him... . it's a big deal to them.

Can I ask do you love your husband? Is there anything there that reminds you why you loved him once (presuming that you did). Sorry if that's too personal a question.

Very best wishes to you PT