One shot for my kids' happiness: I fired my wife today.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Dear L3:

I posted this as part of a thread on L5, but as you will read, I can no longer protect my children.

I have informed my BPDw of such.

Below is the quote:

I am feeling a bit cold about the whole BPD thing today if you cannot tell.  Therapy for my wife is not working, meds are not working, each day is more and more worse.  Both for her and as a result me. 

The thing that sucks is it really is a leave somebody behind to die in misery to save yourself.  The problem is trying to live with doing that.  you love them, you see their good qualities, you empathize with them, but rationality with the illness is out the window

You basically get one shot at standing strong... you gotta stand strong against double blinds and all these sick tools.  As soon as you give in even one time, they have you and there is no turning back.  It is not cause they want to hurt you, but they are sick.  The result is that the illness is infectious.  BPD infects the SO but creates a different kind of craziness of self doubt, guilt, and emotionally abused

I am curious how many of us could actually qualify as having PSTD just from dealing with a BPD.  My first thought was that is insane, but if you read the symptoms of PSTD and you think of how you are thinking with your BPD... its not that crazy.  End Quote[/quote]
My post:

Today is my one shot.

I told by my BPDw to get out.  I told her we are done.  She is fired.

We went to my son's T, to review the reasons for his suspension from school last week and he running away from home.  He's 7.  He left to get out of the house and get a clearer head after having his mother cower and cajole him for a messy room. ":)o you see how much work I have to do now?" ":)o you see how many lego pieces I have to count?"  Three police cars were at my house after I found him walking on another neighboring street and brought him home.

I stood up after an hour and said: 2/3 of my children have run away from home.  I will not wait for the last one to try.  My children need to be protected more that I have to sit and listen to my wife's complaints about a crumbling house.

I have contacted my spiritual leader for some names of divorce lawyers.

Oh yeah, I agree with the PTSD thing with the non's.  I am just starting to work on it with my T.  Very scary to examine one's insides , but w-t-heck: living with an unstable BPD has taught me to be strong.

[gary seven]

Dear L3:

I posted this as part of a thread on L5, but as you will read, I can no longer protect my children.

I have informed my BPDw of such.

Below is the quote:

I am feeling a bit cold about the whole BPD thing today if you cannot tell.  Therapy for my wife is not working, meds are not working, each day is more and more worse.  Both for her and as a result me. 

The thing that sucks is it really is a leave somebody behind to die in misery to save yourself.  The problem is trying to live with doing that.  you love them, you see their good qualities, you empathize with them, but rationality with the illness is out the window

You basically get one shot at standing strong... you gotta stand strong against double blinds and all these sick tools.  As soon as you give in even one time, they have you and there is no turning back.  It is not cause they want to hurt you, but they are sick.  The result is that the illness is infectious.  BPD infects the SO but creates a different kind of craziness of self doubt, guilt, and emotionally abused

I am curious how many of us could actually qualify as having PSTD just from dealing with a BPD.  My first thought was that is insane, but if you read the symptoms of PSTD and you think of how you are thinking with your BPD... its not that crazy.  End Quote[/quote]
My post:

Today is my one shot.

I told by my BPDw to get out.  I told her we are done.  She is fired.

We went to my son's T, to review the reasons for his suspension from school last week and he running away from home.  He's 7.  He left to get out of the house and get a clearer head after having his mother cower and cajole him for a messy room. ":)o you see how much work I have to do now?" ":)o you see how many lego pieces I have to count?"  Three police cars were at my house after I found him walking on another neighboring street and brought him home.

I stood up after an hour and said: 2/3 of my children have run away from home.  I will not wait for the last one to try.  My children need to be protected more that I have to sit and listen to my wife's complaints about a crumbling house.

I have contacted my spiritual leader for some names of divorce lawyers.

Oh yeah, I agree with the PTSD thing with the non's.  I am just starting to work on it with my T.  Very scary to examine one's insides , but w-t-heck: living with an unstable BPD has taught me to be strong.

[Matt]

You're right about PTSD (or something like it).  My head got much clearer after being away from my wife for a while.

I'm glad you're talking with a therapist and also with spiritual leaders, and with us here - three good sources of support you need right now.  Talk as much as you can with family and close friends who care about you - that's another type of support that will help.

Daily cardiovascular exercise and regular sleep will help too.  You are dealing with huge stress!

One thing that adds to stress is when we are re-acting instead of executing our own plan.  By talking to your T, and spiritual advisors, and your friends here, and an attorney experienced in situations like this, you can probably work out a good set of objectives and a strategy to achieve them.

Your objectives are critical, because if you aren't clear about them - in your own mind, and when you talk to attorneys - assumptions will be made, and options won't be pursued because of those assumptions.  For example, many attorneys assume that a dad can't be the primary parent, or that dads don't want primary custody - an assumption that probably won't work in your case.  You might choose objectives like, "Establish separate homes by the end of April", "Primary temporary custody now and primary permanent custody when the case is settled", etc. - clear, simple objectives so each attorney knows what "success" means to you.

Some attorneys will focus on trying to get you to lower your expectations.  They are losers - run away.  What you need is not promises - no attorney will promise you anything - but a solid strategy, and specific steps that can be taken to achieve what you decide is best for yourself and for the kids.

In some cases, it's possible to get the court to order the other party out of the home, but that is hard, especially when it's Mom you want out of the home.  That's where the audio recording and other documentation will be important - to show the court that she is not capable of being the primary parent.  You'll also need to show that you can do that - find evidence that you are capable and make it very clear you are ready to step up and do that.

Talk with attorneys about filing a motion to have a Custody Evaluator appointed - that's what I did - a Ph.D. psychologist who administered objective psych evals to both parents.  Objective psych evals allow the psychologist to diagnose both parties.  Be prepared for your own evaluation to show some issues - we all have them at this stage - don't be defensive or deny, just accept what you learn and pursue appropriate help, maybe with your T or whatever is needed.  (Mine said "High risk for addiction" which was a surprise to me - I asked, "What should I do about that?" and was told, "Keep seeing your counselor and don't drink.", so that's what I did.)

Your wife's results are impossible to predict, but if she has BPD or something similar it will help to get that out in the open.  She is likely to deny her diagnosis and refuse treatment, and that will make you look very good by contrast.  In my case, this was a big part of the solution - her lawyer and the judge could see for themselves, from an objective third party, that she was not safe to be the primary parent.

These issues work differently in different places.  By talking to lawyers, you can learn about how things work there and figure out your plan.  Then you will be taking initiative to work that plan, not just reacting to crazy stuff she does.  Everything won't get fixed right away, but over time you can make things better for yourself and your kids.

Best wishes,

Matt

[ForeverDad]

So you fired her.  You have peer support here.

Just be aware that things have gone to a new level of discord, at least in her mind.  You are relieved to have finally told her.  Her response, well, it is unknown at this time.  On the one hand, she might behave herself for a while, seeing that you set a huge boundary.  If so, she will soon relapse into old patterns before long.  On the other hand... . beware.  She might start planning on ways to get YOU out of the house.  One particularly nasty way is to frame you for DV or child abuse, neglect or endangerment.

It has happened to me many times.  Every time she felt she made herself look bad, and she did look bad, she then concocted allegations in an attempt to make me look worse than her.  Now, eight years later, there are fewer attempts, but she still does it.  We were in court late last year and she looked bad, the judge admonished her for 'disparaging' father in front of child.  (Nothing new, she's been doing this since before we separated, but this was the first time bluntly presented to the judge.)  In the order though was a phrase giving her "one more try" and allowing her to keep equal time during the summers.  So... . Within two months CPS got a complaint that the perpetrator (me) was neglecting the child (a pre-teen).  So an investigation was started.  Was it almost predictable?  Yes.  Did it inconvenience me, our child and the CPS investigator?  Yes.  Did it work?  No, it was closed unsubstantiated.  Fortunately I've got a long and good history with them, well they might dispute 'good', so lets just say they have had 'no concerns' about me.

So right now is an especially dicey time for you.  It is an in-between gap, after announcing the married has failed and before a divorce case is filed and temporary orders issued.  There are currently no court orders and she may feel angry, entitled and 'anything goes'.  As father, you probably won't get the benefit of the doubt if she makes allegations.  When I look back at my first 911 call, the police responded and she was the one who was told about the battered spouse line, I was the one asked to hand preschooler over to mother and step away.  Fortunately he screamed and clung even tighter to me so they were stymied for a moment and then left.  I think my son 'saved' me from being carted away that day.

[Matt]

One particularly nasty way is to frame you for DV or child abuse, neglect or endangerment.

Yeah, super important point.

It doesn't even have to be "framing" you.  All it takes is a call to 911 - it happened to me and many of us here - you will be considered guilty til proven innocent.

The only way to avoid it for sure is to never be in the same place as her, without a non-family adult third party present all the time.

[gary seven]

Just be aware that things have gone to a new level of discord, at least in her mind.  You are relieved to have finally told her.  Her response, well, it is unknown at this time.  On the one hand, she might behave herself for a while, seeing that you set a huge boundary.  If so, she will soon relapse into old patterns before long.  On the other hand... . beware.  She might start planning on ways to get YOU out of the house.  One particularly nasty way is to frame you for DV or child abuse, neglect or endangerment.

So right now is an especially dicey time for you.  It is an in-between gap, after announcing the married has failed and before a divorce case is filed and temporary orders issued.  There are currently no court orders and she may feel angry, entitled and 'anything goes'.  As father, you probably won't get the benefit of the doubt if she makes allegations.  When I look back at my first 911 call, the police responded and she was the one who was told about the battered spouse line, I was the one asked to hand preschooler over to mother and step away.  Fortunately he screamed and clung even tighter to me so they were stymied for a moment and then left.  I think my son 'saved' me from being carted away that day.

Thanks Matt and Forever.

I tried to cheer myself up, in anticipation of a very significant crying fest that she has played out before, when she "promised to reform, promised to do all the things she used to, etc, etc.

So I went to Home Depot and bought my kids some broccoli plants, some arugula, and some Texas 1050 onions.  The kids eyes lit up with these presents, especially since my youngest S7 LOVES broccoli.  Myself, I did not eat it until age 16.

And true to form, she had all the kids fed, all the homework done,  a fair amount of laundry dried and folded, the kitchen cleaned, the bed made, and even took time to play some board games with the kids.  Naturally that was accompanied by her "success with her going to her group therapy session today," and I will not talk about the house, or bring up any source of conflict," yada, yada, yada. 

She wanted some time together, and the tears started.  I have nothing to say now to her.  We are so broke I can't afford to get divorced, but I believe we can separate.

I have kept a journal at work since May when she smashed the glass cooktop with the frying pan instead of hitting me... . a recurrent image in my head that is hard to get rid of... .

I have backed up audio conversations.

I have been present with her P and our kids' T when she regurgitates her mantra of how I am to blame for all the problems ... . like had I not bought this house, the youngest would never have run away... .   I won't even go any further with her on that gem.

I think I will have to sleep separately from her during the weekdays.  On the weekend the kids may see me on the couch (in the TV room).  I get up at 5 am anyhow to make lunches and get breakfast setup and then get clothes picked out for the three kids.

I am about to go upstairs to tell her this; I know it will produce more tears but I need the break. 

I understand all too well about possible scenarios.  I will not raise a hand, and will not get physical, and will abide by all the laws of the State. Her institutionalizations this past summer, besides draining all my money, are incontrovertible records of her psychiatric behavior. 

I so want my kids to have a normal childhood... . or what is left of it.

Sorry for the rambling... . it's time for me to hit the sofa.

[Matt]

Minimize how much you talk about this stuff with her.  You don't need to tell her what you are going to do - just do it.  Discussing it may set her off.

Focus on setting up two households, even if that means living with your family for a while (with the kids).  Breaking the cooktop with the frying pan - sometimes property damage is a step toward violence against other people.  She wasn't mad at the cooktop - she was mad at you - and she had enough control to direct her anger toward an object.  Next time she might not have that much control.  She might get violent with you, or worse yet, she might make false accusations and things will get much worse very fast.

Any way you can separate soon before that happens?

[gary seven]

Minimize how much you talk about this stuff with her.  You don't need to tell her what you are going to do - just do it.  Discussing it may set her off.

Focus on setting up two households, even if that means living with your family for a while (with the kids).  Breaking the cooktop with the frying pan - sometimes property damage is a step toward violence against other people.  She wasn't mad at the cooktop - she was mad at you - and she had enough control to direct her anger toward an object.  Next time she might not have that much control.  She might get violent with you, or worse yet, she might make false accusations and things will get much worse very fast.

Any way you can separate soon before that happens?

Matt:  Got it.

I slept on the couch and will move to the basement.

I think I have to change T because the guy I saw thru EAP is unaffordable by private pay, and my BPDw is at a private pay P and T and Tgroup and my kids are at a private pay T.  But as I type I think I am going to have her ask her parents to pay for her P and T.  I deserve some guidance, too.

She was all crying this morning, asking what are my plans.  What makes this situation particularly difficult is that she herself is a divorce lawyer, practiced here in this community before we left, and was particularly good at her job.  She won most of her cases; I guess her constant wearing down of the opponents was a good tactic.

Oh, we replaced the cooktop with a cast-iron gas top.  Unbreakable.

I am not sure how or when the kids are going to be told.

Will probably need to meet with their T as well.

I appreciate all other suggestions.

G7

[Matt]

My kids were 8, 10, 17 and 29 when we separated, and it was sudden, so what to tell them and how was a big deal.  Then later, when the divorce was final, the same problem.

Our marriage counselor told me - with my wife sitting right there - that I should tell the kids - not both of us together, me.  I should tell each one separately, so each kid could process it without distraction or influence from the other kids.

I started with the oldest, so he could be available for the younger ones, and went down from there.

All of them heard it OK, and asked a few questions.  But all of them acted out in different ways over the next few weeks.  One threw big fits for no reason;  one got very sad and cried;  one was caught (on purpose) smoking weed in the bathroom;  and my oldest, who was in rehab at the time, relapsed and got drunk.

For you, maybe you can work with the kids' therapist and talk about the best way to handle it.  I would  not involve your wife in it at all, except after the fact maybe do her the courtesy of telling her what you did.  You could tell the kids together with the therapist, or tell them shortly before their next appointment, so they can talk about it with her.

Make sure you have a good chance to listen to each kid and answer questions after telling them.  My kids' questions were practical, not philosophical.  For example, S8 wanted to know if they would still be taking the same bus to school.  (Later I realized he didn't want the other kids at school to figure out his parents were separated.)  All their questions caught me off guard - not what I would have expected - so I needed to listen to exactly what they were asking and answer, and make sure the answer was what they needed.

[gary seven]

For you, maybe you can work with the kids' therapist and talk about the best way to handle it.  I would  not involve your wife in it at all, except after the fact maybe do her the courtesy of telling her what you did.  You could tell the kids together with the therapist, or tell them shortly before their next appointment, so they can talk about it with her.

Make sure you have a good chance to listen to each kid and answer questions after telling them.  My kids' questions were practical, not philosophical.  For example, S8 wanted to know if they would still be taking the same bus to school.  (Later I realized he didn't want the other kids at school to figure out his parents were separated.)  All their questions caught me off guard - not what I would have expected - so I needed to listen to exactly what they were asking and answer, and make sure the answer was what they needed.

Thank you for sharing some of your personal story.

My kids are 9,7 and 7.  I need to do this right the first time.  They are so special to me. 

I will contact the kids' therapist.

My BPDw and I are meeting again with our spiritual leader this weekend.

I have to get a handle on the finances.  I am the sole earner for the family.  Her medical and therapy expenses last year were astronomical in the tens of thousands... . and to what benefit?

I am monitoring the bank account balances daily.

I am having dinner with a friend tomorrow night.  I am working on maintaining boundaries.

Today I took a 10 minute walk around the building for lunch to get some exercise.

[Matt]

Just some more chatting about our experiences - aspects of this that are difficult because it's always the first time for all of us... .

One thing I learned was the value of the "new normal".  What I mean is, kids need a feeling of security, so if you tell them, "We are facing big changes!", but if you can't tell them what the new normal will be, they will be losing security, with nothing to replace it.

But if you can plan so when you take away the old normal, you quickly replace it with the new normal, and that is something they can count on for quite a while, that will feel more secure to them.

I rented a small house two blocks away from our family home - a very similar house, close enough that they could walk between the houses.  Same bus stop.  I got a bunk bed so they slept in the same room at first - that seemed to help them.  A computer and TV so they didn't lose those.  Within a very short time I was able to have a nice, quiet home.  It was still a big disruption - some time at my place and some time with Mom - but it was solid and stayed the same for a few years.

Of course this is a financial challenge - you're right to focus on that a lot.  You can't take all the money and give her none.  But you also don't have to continue to give her all the money she wants.  A lawyer can tell you what is considered OK where you live, and there may be a worksheet for how much support you have to pay - check online or ask a lawyer.

I found that I was giving my wife way too much money.  She was investing some of it but most of it was just gone - who knows where.  You can't give her nothing but you also don't have to give her as much as she wants - there is only so much.  Until the court rules, you can decide what you believe is fair - it doesn't have to include her therapist if that is expensive and not doing any good.  (Without a diagnosis based on an objective psych eval, she may just be telling her therapist anything and the therapist can only act based on what she knows.  Garbage in, garbage out.)

If you have a solid plan before you talk to the kids, you'll be able to answer their practical questions and minimize the insecurity they will be feeling.

[gary seven]

If you have a solid plan before you talk to the kids, you'll be able to answer their practical questions and minimize the insecurity they will be feeling.

Two spaces are a goal. Means having to talk to my wife, and her family to make the financial commitment.  The kids have had so many upheavals they didn't deserve (we got thrown out of one town in Texas because of her antics---a trespass warrant was sworn out against her by our kids' school!). 

I will start thinking about crafting this carefully over the next few weeks.

[Matt]

Might be worth talking to the mortgage company if you own your home - they will work with you on it, at least for a few months.  If you are renting, you can't quit paying the rent, but maybe 2 small places won't cost much more than 1 big one.

[gary seven]

Might be worth talking to the mortgage company if you own your home - they will work with you on it, at least for a few months. 

Unfortunately that's one more sticking point: as the third owners of a 28 yr old house, we were the lucky ones to get stuck with a 28 year old chimney leak that has taken out the northside of the house:  the master bathroom, the living room, and part of the basement. 

Living with my BPDw, we hired and fired several contractors.  Our chimney stood in scaffolding for 6 months.  She refused to let multiple contractors in.  Finally I had my brother intervene in the summer while she was out of the house at her "program."

It is over a year and it is just now almost ready to be repaired.  The insurance company is covering it, but we had to be mold remediation done twice.

Can't sell it like it looks:  so I don't know how to afford 2 places. 

I agree with not talking to her... . between the crying jags she has thousands of more questions... . I can't handle any more questions.

My job may be in jepoardy as well, have big meeting with new sub-boss at 7 am. I have to look great and smell great.  Maybe even put Vaseline on my teeth so I don't do anything but smile.  I heard they do that in Beauty Pageants.

Time to hit the basement couch... . after the tooth fairy stops by at sleeping S7 who lost #5 tooth today.  Gold dollar coin headed to replace the tooth.

[momtara]

Good job!  Your kids are still young.  Waiting too long may mean you lose them forever.  I know you feel sorry for your wife.  You are not leaving her to crumble.  You are leaving her to protect your kids.  If she wants to get help on her own and get better, maybe she will. 

[ForeverDad]

Good job!  Your kids are still young.  Waiting too long may mean you lose them forever.  I know you feel sorry for your wife.  You are not leaving her to crumble.  You are leaving her to protect your kids.  If she wants to get help on her own and get better, maybe she will.

That's right, she is an adult.  She has to shoulder her own consequences.  You did try to help in the past, at some point you had to let go.  Kids are different, they're not expected to withstand and cope with adult issues, they properly need you, so they go high on your priority list.

[gary seven]

Good job!  Your kids are still young.  Waiting too long may mean you lose them forever.  I know you feel sorry for your wife.  You are not leaving her to crumble.  You are leaving her to protect your kids.  If she wants to get help on her own and get better, maybe she will.

That's right, she is an adult.  She has to shoulder her own consequences.  You did try to help in the past, at some point you had to let go.  Kids are different, they're not expected to withstand and cope with adult issues, they properly need you, so they go high on your priority list.

Momtara and FD:

Very important points.  I do not want to lose my kids forever and my BPDw needs to shoulder her own consequences.

She's busy crying about how she has been trying, how her meds stopped working, etc.

Even though the couch isn't the Ritz Carlton, I have a place to stay.  Waiting to hear from the kids' T about how to manage this next phase.