And the manipulation and guilt keep on coming

[Cipher13]

Thought I was having a good weekend. Then by Saturdaynight it fell apart. She was going to stay home while i was going on abusiness trip end of this month. Some how it turned all the ay around to he wanting/expecting/demanding me to "get outof having to go".  Before it was "schange your schedule". Of which I was not able to nor did I try.  I will be doing her thelargest favor and it would mean so much to her.

She claims she hates em and the sight of me but wants to hold and control me it seems like still. So what the heck. I can't keep bouncing around mentally like this. I'll end up being committed.

[WalrusGumboot]

Cipher,

I have been following your posts for a while now. I sense an increasing amount of frustration and despair in your posts. When you write things like "I'll end up being committed", that should be a warning to yourself. That sentence tells a story in of itself.

I spent most of my time here in the Undecided camp, and in hindsight it was probably the worst period for me mentally. Since I wasn't committed one way or another, I let things "just happen" in my r/s, and I felt like my feet was stuck in the muck and had no hope of escape. Feeling trapped, I became my own worst enemy. Death seemed like the only way out, and no, I wasn't consciously suicidal, but the lack of care that I gave myself was a silent, slow suicide.

Is there anything besides fear, obligation, and guilt keeping you in this r/s? If so, have you done everything you can to improve this situation to keep it from spiraling out of control?

You are aware that things can get much worse? You need a survival plan. You DON'T have to go down with the ship!

WG

[waverider]

Walrus is right getting stuck in the "undecided zone" is stressful and can lead to freelings of depression and hopelessness.

Living life by default and not making real choices. Only you can decide what you want here and that way you can set your mind to your decisions, as a result the guilt tripping and neediness will be easier to ride with.

You need a firm agenda.

[Forestaken]

Walrus and I were in the same boat as you. (We lived on these boards for years). 

I just finished a long term abusive r/s.  I can honestly tell you, leaving was the hardest and best decision I ever made.  By moving on you'll discover your strengths.  You deserve better and more.

[Cipher13]

Death seemed like the only way out, and no, I wasn't consciously suicidal, but the lack of care that I gave myself was a silent, slow suicide.

Is there anything besides fear, obligation, and guilt keeping you in this r/s? If so, have you done everything you can to improve this situation to keep it from spiraling out of control?

I too feel this way all the time and even more so lately. There is nothing else besides FOG keeping me in this r/s. I do not have children. I have gone to counsleing for myself and as a couple. I have tried to give her all she asks for. I have tried to do all I can for myslef as best I can. I can say I have tried as much as I possibly can aside form giving in to every single request she makes especailly those that seem extremely far fetched. I get the same suggestions from her parents that I get on this site. I also get simialr suggestions from my parents. All idependently separate for each other.

So now what?

[WalrusGumboot]

So now what?

I don't think there is anybody on this site that will or should tell you to stay or leave, but I think everybody on this site will tell you that being Undecided should not be your permanent home.

What is sounds like, your BPDw will not make the first move one way or the other, so that lies with you.

One thing I did learn was that outsiders looking in see a very broken marriage no matter how hard you two try to hide it in front of company. Their counsel is often very wise. When I made my move, I heard lots of sighs of relief.

Food for thought: there was an elderly member here who spent almost his entire life with a BPD spouse. I haven't seen him in quite a while, so I don't think he comes here anymore. He felt he was too old to leave, but most of all he felt cheated out of one of life's greatest pleasures, and that is having a loving partner. He was one of my biggest motivators to make a change in my life somehow sooner rather than later.

At the very least, you can try opening some dialogue between you two expressing how you feel on the marriage. Maybe you have been there, done that, but it might break this stalemate.

WG

[Forestaken]

When I made my move, I heard lots of sighs of relief.

in my case too.

Food for thought: there was an elderly member here who spent almost his entire life with a BPD spouse. I haven't seen him in quite a while, so I don't think he comes here anymore. He felt he was too old to leave, but most of all he felt cheated out of one of life's greatest pleasures, and that is having a loving partner. He was one of my biggest motivators to make a change in my life somehow sooner rather than later.

Food for thought (me): married 24 years, age when I filed: 49, celebrated my 50th birthday in divorce court, final decree: age 51

Only regret: Shouldn't done it sooner. 

[GaGrl]

I will echo these gentlemen.  My DH was married to his ex, the uNPD/BPD he referred to as The Dark Princess, for 33 years.  He spent the last 13-14 years of the marriage separated but in such a FOG that she still came in and out of his life and his house as if a real marriage still existed.  She parentified him, idealizing him and making sure that he continued to feel responsible for having brought her to this country when she was 18 years old/little English skills.

The stress will wear you down.  By the time DH and I reconnected (knew each other as teens), he had high blood pressure that required medication.  He has several other stress-related/stress-aggravated conditions.  He held it inside himself and conducted himself as an officer and a gentleman for many, many years.

By the time we married, DH was 56 and I was 52.  It's never too late.  We have a life unlike either of us ever imagined possible. His ex has not changed her modus operandi one whit and never will.

[waverider]

Sometimes choosing to stay out of your own good reasons and working hard on getting a handle on it, means that if you do then eventually leave then what you have learned by given staying your best shot, prepares you for leaving. You will know why you are leaving, you will have learned as much as you can, you will know what is possible and what is not.

It will prevent a lot of the if only's and much of the anger. You will know it was the right thing

[WalrusGumboot]

cipher,

Read and reread what waverider wrote, because it is exactly right. I went through several recycles after I filed. The second recycle happened because I did leave one stone unturned in trying to see if divorce could be averted. It failed, and it failed miserably, but then and only then I knew I tried everything and just did not cut and run. Some might not choose to endure what I did but I had my own conscious to deal with.

Forestaken and I almost have the same story, almost the same age, and also I share his regret in that I should have done it sooner. It took FIVE YEARS from the time I discovered she had BPD and this site and started applying the principles to make things better, until the divorce. That's a big chunk of life to spend being miserable.

You have some big decisions ahead of you. I suggest strongly that you do what you can to try to attain a level of peace of mind so that you can make the best decisions. I had my T help me work through my thoughts.

[tiredndown]

cipher

Let me ask you this question. If you had a son, daughter, brother, sister, close friend telling you they are having the type of trouble that you are in the marriage, what would you suggest to them? Why are YOU not good enough to take your own advice?

So now what?

Make a list of things you need to do to resolve this situation. From that list make a list of each of those things you need to do to make it happen... . Then do them one by one.

Things I need to do

1) Make a list

• Get a pencil



• Get some paper



• Go for a walk



• Get some paper

2) Prepare myself to leave

• By a newspaper



• Look at apartments



• Drive by some apartments

3) etc... .

[Cipher13]

WG

I know I have tried as much as I can handle. I am become a bitter person to the point I can't hide it like I used to. Last night my wife told me that I am a angry person and that I do not liek anything anymore. Thats sort of true. However thers is just one thing that is off with that statement. Its not that I don't liek anythign anymore. Its that all the things I like are being blocked and I have allowed for that to happen in the name of keeping the peace.

She wants to move again. I want to stay where I am happy to make a living and enjoy my job. The pasture on the other side for her is always greener. Thats why we have moved so much. I bought a house to stop the moving. I supose I could get a job and she keeps saying this will be th elast time we move. But we have never stayed anywhere long enough to get s sense of home and established. This is about the longestwe have stayed in 1 place I think. Its just a year and a half.

Her parents said they will not visit if we move again. I can't say I blame them. She keeps pushing som many people away. I want to restablish my relationship with my family. She wants nothing to do with that. Which is fine I will do that myself. However I don't see her allowing that to go very well. Just look at whth stuff she is pulling to keep me from going on this business training trip.

[tiredndown]

I want to restablish my relationship with my family. She wants nothing to do with that.

Abuse 101 - Distance you from your support.

[WalrusGumboot]

Her parents said they will not visit if we move again. I can't say I blame them. She keeps pushing som many people away. I want to restablish my relationship with my family. She wants nothing to do with that. Which is fine I will do that myself. However I don't see her allowing that to go very well. Just look at whth stuff she is pulling to keep me from going on this business training trip.

Cipher,

I echo tiredndown about her keeping you from a support network. That is probably why you come here!

She's not going to quit her games while you remain married and/or remain alive.

I want to stay where I am happy to make a living and enjoy my job.

I reread this three or four times. What is the first thing this site suggests? Start taking care of yourself. You are happy at the job you are at. Your BPDw will be unhappy no matter where she moves.

I cannot think of a better place to set a boundary than with this moving idea that she has. Pretty much all your remaining happiness is at risk. Your job at least gives you happiness... anything else I missed? The buck has to stop, and in my opinion, it has to be here. And let the chips fall where they may.

[Forestaken]

I want to restablish my relationship with my family. She wants nothing to do with that.

Abuse 101 - Distance you from your support.

This is too true!

I was physically abused by my Xw (punched, slapped, hair pulled - attacked while sleeping). 

She threw me out of the house or made me sleep in the car during the winter (no heat). 

Took away my bank cards, money, house/car keys, etc

No cell phone, I didn't have enough money for someone to call to get me.

Spent nights at Walmart.

How did that happen?  First it was my marriage or this friend, then that friend until there was no friends.  Followed by this family member that family member, or co-worker, until there was no one left except her and her family.

Verbal abuse, emotional attacks, false accusations that rolled into physical attacks.  How long did this happen? Over 8 years, it was a slow boil.

[waverider]

Isolation is the one of the first things to take back control over. Once you get to decide who you keep in touch with you will start to feel like your life is yours again. Without other people you loose perspective

[Cipher13]

She is completely relentless. No matter how many different ways I say I do not want to move she can change up how she phrases it or adds some kind of stipulation.  Even as far as using soem of my own words froom the past against me. Obviously the guilt angle has worked in the past and why she uses it to this day.

Then there are the "happy wife" "angry wife" moments that seem to change with the wind out of the blue. I have no idea who I will get withing a single converstion.  I want to contiue to set some more boundaries with her requests of me. Saying "no" seems the quickest but creates the most resentment. She uses words to manipulate me through guilt. How to say "no" without is coming across as mean. even if it isn't truley mean based in reality?

[Forestaken]

Once I was willing to move to my Xw hometown.  I told her I changed my mind.  It took her 2 years to realize I wasn't going to change my mind. 

Strategy: Never complain about your job.  Ammo for moving.  But don't   your job either (ammo for false accusations of infidelity).  You have decent pay, benefits, chance of promotion, better life.

[Waddams]

It's better to not engage in the mental gymnastics they try to suck you into.  "No I don't want to move.   I'm happy here.  I'm not moving."  End of discussion.

"I'm going solo on my next business trip." End of discussion.

No matter what else she comes up, the response is to simply reinforce your decision.  "No, I'm not moving."  "No, I'm going on this trip solo."  And say nothing else.  It gives her nowhere to go, nothing to argue with.  No details/specifics to try to jump on.  And it's not a debate at this point.  It's a decision that you are reinforcing.  It's less drama for you.  She can react however she will, but if you conduct yourself within tight boundaries that are consistent, you can not get caught up in the drama she tries to create.  Less drama = less stress = better feelings/emotions/mental state for you.

[tiredndown]

Cipher13

What you ( and her ) need to realize that you are an independent thinking human being. You do not need her permission to stay where you are. You do not need her permission for ANYTHING. Once you realize you control exactly one person in this world ( Yourself ), You are set free ! ! !

You can tell her, go ahead and move if you want to so badly, I'm staying put. You do what you want, if she doesn't like it, she has only two options... . 1) Deal with it 2) leave you

[Cipher13]

tiredndown

You can tell her, go ahead and move if you want to so badly, I'm staying put. You do what you want, if she doesn't like it, she has only two options... . 1) Deal with it 2) leave you

Its was difficult last night but I did not waver omy stance. I did exactly this. She says she will go without me she isn't going to stay here.  Until she does that I do not believe she will venture on her own. Its sa threat for right now.

No matter what else she comes up, the response is to simply reinforce your decision.  "No, I'm not moving."  "No, I'm going on this trip solo."  And say nothing else.  It gives her nowhere to go, nothing to argue with.  No details/specifics to try to jump on.

I will adopt this strategy. Thank you. Is simple to the point and apears to be affective. I am also going to move to the leaving board. I have put in all my effort and I don't have the fight in me any more to hold on to this r/s. Since it appears daily that I am the only one holding on to what ever it is.

[waverider]

tiredndown

You can tell her, go ahead and move if you want to so badly, I'm staying put. You do what you want, if she doesn't like it, she has only two options... . 1) Deal with it 2) leave you

Its was difficult last night but I did not waver omy stance. I did exactly this. She says she will go without me she isn't going to stay here.  Until she does that I do not believe she will venture on her own. Its sa threat for right now.

No matter what else she comes up, the response is to simply reinforce your decision.  "No, I'm not moving."  "No, I'm going on this trip solo."  And say nothing else.  It gives her nowhere to go, nothing to argue with.  No details/specifics to try to jump on.

I will adopt this strategy. Thank you. Is simple to the point and apears to be affective. I am also going to move to the leaving board. I have put in all my effort and I don't have the fight in me any more to hold on to this r/s. Since it appears daily that I am the only one holding on to what ever it is.

The advantage of this approach is you dont say anything reactively, something you haven't thought through/considered, cant stand by. It also prevents spite creeping in.

Too many words can be thrown back at you, a bit like throwing rocks at an avalanche, you just make it worse and get blamed for setting it off.

[WalrusGumboot]

cipher,

A thought occurred to me. My exBPDw felt threatened by my career (self-employed IT consultant). She put me in countless situations where I had to choose between her and my clients, all of which occurred during the work day (I worked from a home office). When I put my foot down and told her time and time again that I was working and no, I cannot go kill a spider now, or carry in the groceries, I felt like she was trying to sabotage my business every chance she could as a form of revenge.

When you stand your ground on not moving, my suggestion is to give her a very general reason, such as "I'm happy here". I would not say anything about it being because of your job, because that might become her target for sabotage. I realize that it might be too late, but just in case!

We will all be here for support as you move into the Leaving board. I can't remember the date that I did, but it was very liberating.

[waverider]

cipher,

A thought occurred to me. My exBPDw felt threatened by my career (self-employed IT consultant). She put me in countless situations where I had to choose between her and my clients, all of which occurred during the work day (I worked from a home office). When I put my foot down and told her time and time again that I was working and no, I cannot go kill a spider now, or carry in the groceries, I felt like she was trying to sabotage my business every chance she could as a form of revenge.

When you stand your ground on not moving, my suggestion is to give her a very general reason, such as "I'm happy here". I would not say anything about it being because of your job, because that might become her target for sabotage. I realize that it might be too late, but just in case!

We will all be here for support as you move into the Leaving board. I can't remember the date that I did, but it was very liberating.

The word "because' is your Achilles heel when dealing with a pwBPD. "Because" involves cause and effect. pwBPD do not have "cause and effect" to the fore in their thinking. So using "because" falls on deaf ears. It shows that what you are saying is not a solid stand alone event, but dependent on something else. Which is interpreted as a weak spot in your argument. Break the link and you break the argument.

Avoid words like "because" and "but" it will make your values a lot more definable

[tiredndown]

tiredndown

Quote

You can tell her, go ahead and move if you want to so badly, I'm staying put. You do what you want, if she doesn't like it, she has only two options... . 1) Deal with it 2) leave you

Its was difficult last night but I did not waver omy stance. I did exactly this. She says she will go without me she isn't going to stay here.  Until she does that I do not believe she will venture on her own. Its sa threat for right now.

Very good to hear! If she goes without you, she is doing you a favor. Now think about all of the things that she bullies you on and start standing your ground on them one by one. UNWAVERING decisions. As soon as you waver, she takes the power back.

A word of caution though. When abusers see that what they are doing or have been doing stops working they will change it up. So keep your radar on high alert for changing tactics. She may suddenly be nice for a while to butter you up, but just know she will go back to being abusive as soon as she gets what she wants. IMO THIS is what makes this cycle so maddening.

T&:)