Right of first refusal - question

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So exH and I both agreed on right of first refusal.  Anyway, I have a few things I need to do after work later this month and was going to get a sitter.  Just for an hour or two.  Our agreement is a bit confusingly worded, in that the right of first refusal portion seems to apply to emergencies and last minute stuff.  But it's a bit nebulous. 

He has been trying to get back together and constantly starts conversations about that topic when he sees me.  Right now I want to be around him as little as possible.

Can he use right of first refusal to ask to babysit for these little hours or two after work?  Do I have to give him that right? 

In truth, he doesn't live around here, so he is going to ask to do it in my apartment, which I will naturally say NO to.  But he may also say he wants to take them to dinner or  the park for that hour or two or something.  That means I have to deal with him - and he is tracking my movements a bit if I ever want to do something a little social.

[momtara]

So exH and I both agreed on right of first refusal.  Anyway, I have a few things I need to do after work later this month and was going to get a sitter.  Just for an hour or two.  Our agreement is a bit confusingly worded, in that the right of first refusal portion seems to apply to emergencies and last minute stuff.  But it's a bit nebulous. 

He has been trying to get back together and constantly starts conversations about that topic when he sees me.  Right now I want to be around him as little as possible.

Can he use right of first refusal to ask to babysit for these little hours or two after work?  Do I have to give him that right? 

In truth, he doesn't live around here, so he is going to ask to do it in my apartment, which I will naturally say NO to.  But he may also say he wants to take them to dinner or  the park for that hour or two or something.  That means I have to deal with him - and he is tracking my movements a bit if I ever want to do something a little social.

[momtara]

OK - just rechecked our agreement and it definitely just applies to emergencies.  Whew. 

Still wondering if some of you have had any issues with right of first refusal.  I have custody most of the time. 

Do you have to let other parent know if you are using a sitter?

[Waddams]

I've had RoFR issues with uPDxw and we don't even have a RoFR clause in our court orders.  uPDxw claims it even though it's not in there.  Lots of disordered ex-'s will try to use it in ways it was't intended, such as to make you use them for babysitting for a 30 minute trip to the store if you would otherwise drop the kid off with your parents, or have them come over, etc.  It's a way for them to try to keep you engaged, make you do things they want, etc.  They use it as a way control you.  They might claim RoFR if you're letting the child visit grandparents.

From what I've read, a lot of judges are now voiding RoFR clauses in divorce orders when later issues arise around it.  They recognize that ex-spouses are just trying to use it to mess with each other, so they declare it void or unenforceable rather than rule on contempt for one side or another.

I specifically had it omitted in my divorce because I didn't want my uPDxw to have a leg to stand on when the babysitting issue started.  Call it a 6th sense or whatever, but I knew she would.  

I've also seen where some would recommend RoFR be limited to non-emergency situations only, and only for times when babysitting is needed for 4 hours or more, or some other specified time.  That way if you need to run and leave the kid with a neighbor due to something that came up unexpectedly, the ex-spouse doens't have a basis in the court orders to complain about anything.  There are a gazillion ways to restrict/structure RoFR and pro's and con's for each one.

Do you have to let other parent know if you are using a sitter?

It depends on the language of the order.  :)oes yours give you a minimum/maximum prior notification requirement?  In most cases, RoFR I would think would be better used for a planned activity.  Provide, say 48 hours minimum prior notice which gives the other parent time to make arrangements to be available.  I would think that emergency circumstances would not be covered by RoFR because the other parent doesn't get adequate prior notice.  If they are available anyway, great, if not, you need to be able to do what you need to do and find another sitter ASAP for urgent circumstances.

Lots of these issues can be addressed with a little common sense and decency.  You plan something where you need a babysitter, then provide advanced notice to the other parent for the offer of babysitting time.  If they can accommodate you, great.  If not, you have time to find alternative child care arrangements.  Of course, you can't depend on our disordered ex-'s to be mature adults and be able to work with you like a grown up, which is why I had it omitted from mine all together.  I think a lot of judges, from what I've read about it, are getting sick of the RoFR issues they see come up in contempt cases and are just ruling RoFR as not enforceable to end the drama over it between the parents.

[momtara]

Very interesting!  OK, good to know.  Just reread my agreement again and it says it's for if care is needed "quickly" due to illness, time conflict, etc.   

[ForeverDad]

I had ROFR in our final decree and I needed it because I had a very entitled ex-spouse.  It was triggered only if (1) it was more than 5 hours and (2) I made sure it specifically categorized my daycare as my time just as school on my time remained my time.  Sure enough, entitled ex caused problems at the school (and got son kicked out of kindergarten in her school district) when it was time for daycare to pick son up after school until I finished work.  She refused to accept that those 2-3 hours after school did not mean she could move in and take over.  My goal was to keep our exchanges to a minimum due to the friction and conflict when we had encounters in person.

As time went on and ex finally accepted that she couldn't commandeer my daycare, I found that 5 hours was too short.  If I wanted to let son play with his cousins in the summer while I was working, 5 hours was far too short a time frame.  When I got custody 3 years later I asked GAL to drop ROFR since by then it was causing more problems than it was worth.

Your need for ROFR depends on your needs and what is best for your children versus ex's demands and patterns of parenting.  Mine was specific so it couldn't be reinterpreted to fit my ex's perceptions, moods and extreme entitlement.

[whirlpoollife]

On first custody hearing, we did not have RoFR. X2bh let kids sit by themselves when they could of easily been with me for the day.  ItThe more he could keep kids from me , he did. It was heart wrenching.     In next hearing, my L had it it put in for  anything over three hours he has to ask.

My work scheduled changed to weekends or when I did not have kids. H knew this. So he texted at last minute if I want RoFR because he has to go to work. (For the courts he worked three days and was home for four to "be with kids".  ).   Of course I had to say no.

Then  on weekend I had kids he would text and tell me he was home to get kids if I went out.

If kids were with me but were both out at friends he would ask kids if I was working or went out and put them elsewhere. This continued for months.

Then he wanted to "get on the same page with me" by telling me he needed my schedule of when I was at work or out so could plan what he needs to do for kids. 

So it backfired on me.

There are a few days coming up that I have to work on days I have kids. I emailed him awhile ago asking if he wants RoFR. Have I heard from him back... . nope.   ( I emailed again saying I will make other arrangements)

Future reviews of custody schedule I will ask to leave it out.

[momtara]

Sounds like it just causes problems unless you are really, really specific about what it should be used for (and even then... . )

[Waddams]

JMHO but RoFR shouldn't be necessary with divorced parents that are sane, not trying to screw with each other, focused on buidling their post divorce lives, and focused on the kid's best interest.  They should be able to figure out things with the kids on their own.  And if you have a healthy level of object constancy, you should be able to understand it's okay for the kids to sometimes babysit themselves when they get old enough.  Tons of kids whose parents are not divorced do it all the time.  Kids should need to be supervised every minute of every day once they start to grow up.  I think it's even unhealthy for them to be hovering over them all the time.

When a disordered person is involved, RoFR is just another avenue for the pwPD to uncork their crazy.

I ususally recommend leaving RoFR out period for the above reason - either shouldn't be needed anyway, or one or both parents are going to use it as a weapon against the other. It's just more trouble than it's worth.

[Matt]

Make sure that what you are doing is more-or-less in line with the court order;  and that what you are doing is what you believe is best for the kids;  and that you are being reasonable.  And I don't think you will run into trouble.

If you feel comfortable posting the ROFR wording here, you could get some feedback on how it looks to everybody here.  Sometimes wording can be interpreted more than one way.

I've never heard of a court punishing a parent because they did what they believed was right for the kids, but the wording of the court order could be interpreted a different way.

And by the way, if you get a baby-sitter, how would your ex even know that?

[momtara]

Yeah, there are various essays on the web saying RofR should be only with normal parents who aren't fighting, routinely offer to help each other, etc... .  And if all those things were true, you wouldn't really need a RofR clause!

But I can see why a normal noncustodial dad might want it if his wife tends to plop the kids with sitters and friends all the time.  For a normal person with most of the custody, like me, I probably didn't need to put that in there.

I talked to a professional who said my interpretation was correct.  She asked the same question - why do I even have to tell him when I use a sitter?

Well, I guess I was worried that a sitter would tell him later if he asked questions.  But I  realized the court document doesn't say I have to tell him when I use a sitter, only that he has to approve our sitters in general.  If I'm only using them a few hours a week, maybe I don't have to tell him in a normal situation.

[whirlpoollife]

Waddams, my kids are old enough to be by themselves so to clarify my not leaving my them by themselves only has to do with h wanting in the house. If he knows I'm not home and kids are alone, he will be over.  They know not to let them in but he is a con artist . No laws , rules would stop him. In court, he tried  to have a court order for the kids to have a key to my house so they could come and go as they please.

H did reply to my email... .He said maybe.

[Ishenuts]

ExH and I have RoFR if over 5 hours. During the summer I don't work and he does. Two summers ago he used his nephew to babysit, and I let it go because it was a bonding opportunity for the kids (prior to divorce his side of the family weren't too involved) But last summer he used his employees to babysit. To get around the 5 hours he would stop home for lunch to break up the 9 hours he was actually gone. Well, we went to court and that didn't fly! He was told he couldn't do that this summer. But God forbid he offer them to me 1 minute more than my 50%. Up to now they have been in camp 1/2 days, and he's used his employees again but it's been less than 5 hours. But without camp I don't know what he'll do. He's been trying to get me to sign up for more camps but I refused due to expenses and I'm home all day! I told him he could sign them up for camp on his 2 or 3 days a week, but most camps won't allow partial weeks.

August will be the test. (We will both be taking out summer vacations with the kids in July) I think his distorted thinking is that if he has a babysitter, but also schedules "play dates" at his house, I will not have an issue with it. He's already tried that once. I said "Yes" but was very specific in my response that it was "ok" for that one day/date only, otherwise he'd argue that I let him do it once, so it's now the rule. Because those same "playdates" can happen at my house!

I agree that RoFR should not be necessary if people think about what is best for the children - being with the other parent vs a babysitter for larger periods of time. Unfortunately, some of us have to fight for every extra minute with our children because, for the unBPDex, hurting us is their priority. 

[momtara]

Ishenuts, when you said court didn't like that... .do you mean you paid thousands to go to court over that?  I tend to wonder this a lot.  A lot of people here mention going to court, but I wonder how they can afford it if they have to go so often.  Did you represent yourself?  Or maybe it was part of other court matters?