Looking for insight

[confusedinny]

Yesterday was my birthday. My girlfriend forgot it was my birthday. While a bit disappointed, I'm not a birthday person at all so I wasn't devastated. But because she's volatile, I was concerned with how to deal with her forgetting about my birthday... .in googling I found this site as there was a birthday thread. In reading the thread and clicking around these message boards, I've realized my girlfriend is undoubtedly BPD. When she realized on her own accord she'd forgotten my birthday she immediately accused me of cheating (unfounded) and went into a rage and the fact that she had forgotten my birthday was lost in a swirling cloud of accusations and my birthday was never mentioned again.

I'm catching up on the reading and videos as quickly as I can. While I'm glad in some regards to have all of this info and a place where I feel people can relate and understand to the insanity that is being so close with someone so unpredictable, I'm also sad, overwhelmed and completely unsure how to deal. I'm looking for input, mainly in two areas.

How do you get your partner who is BPD to accept they have a problem and to seek help? Getting my gf to admit there is a problem feels like it would be such a big step.

Is treatment out there effective? How long does it take for treatment to become effective as these issues feel so deeply rooted...

I'm trying to make a decision on whether or not to stay with her. I love her dearly and I believe she loves me, but it is so confusing. At her best, she is the greatest. At her worst, she is a monster. I have been punched, raged at, lied to, cheated on and all the while I am constantly told I am to blame. When I write this, I realize it is unhealthy for me (I have had four separate 4 year healthy relationships in my life where none of this craziness occurs) and I never felt I'd tolerate this behavior. Yet, Ive discovered in loving her, I've become sympathetic of her background, and because I want the best in her to prevail and for her to have a happy life, that I've become willing to absorb so much hurt and pain with the hopes it helps bring us to a stable place... .But I don't feel I can overlook my own happiness much longer. And I want a family, and while I feel a family and stability would help bring out better sides in her, I'm scared of having a lifetime of these tantrums and unexpected explosions and exposing my kids to this behavior.

That being said, I have a short window of time to make a decision on whether or not to stay where a break up would be less complicated. Our lives have become very intertwined. Shes very high functioning and charming to the rest of the world and is a celebrity in her field believe it or not. No one would ever believe the torment she puts me through. We work very closely and have done a lot of charitable good... .a lot falls apart if we split up. Im doing my best to separate that part from our personal relationship in assessing whether or not to stay together... .but because I feel us being together is best for the greater good, it helps me absorb a lot of her behaviors... .which is good and bad, depending on how you look at it.

Anyways, I appreciate any input. Thank you in advance

[enlighten me]

I'm trying to make a decision on whether or not to stay with her. I love her dearly and I believe she loves me, but it is so confusing. At her best, she is the greatest. At her worst, she is a monster. I have been punched, raged at, lied to, cheated on and all the while I am constantly told I am to blame.

Theres one thing that I would like to ask you. Before this relationship what did you think you would do if you were ever in an abuses relationship with someone who cheated on you?

I bet the answer is you wouldn't stay after the first incident.

[mstnghu]

The short and simple answer is LEAVE NOW. Of course that's so much easier said than done. Many of us have continued to stay in our relationships and ask ourselves why. I honestly wish I'd never gotten married to my BPD wife. We have a son together who I love to death, so for that alone I don't regret out continued relationship. Apart from my son though, I should've never married her and really should've left a long time ago when the "crazy moments" first started showing up. My wife has caused an unbelievable amount of stress, anger and frustration.

You have to make the decision that's right for you, but in all honesty, based on my personal experience I can't tell you to expect things to get better anytime soon. You have just as much right to be happy as she does.

[half-life]

Welcome confusedinny. Take some time to read the posts. Share your experience and reflect. I have read one after another stories of torments that have go on for years. I have my own to share. I hardly hear anyone said they have resolved their problem and is leading a fulfilling life. Just to give you some big picture.

Your charity effort is a bad reason to stay. You could have done as much if not more in other capacity. People who have kids have gone through much larger pain and difficulty to consider separation. And even them have decided they have no better option than to leave.

[confusedinny]

Thank you for the responses. I didn't mention, I did leave her when she cheated and when she punched me. She was suicidal to the point that I didn't feel ok staying away... .and then the person that I loved returned fairly quickly. Things are going well enough for her in her life in general right now, that I don't feel suicide would be a real threat.

After the episode yesterday, we didn't speak for about 12 hours. When we finally spoke I tried to talk about what happened to see if she would perhaps acknowledge things and be willing to work on finding ways to handle her anger in ways that don't spiral out of control. But the conversation became about how it was my fault for bringing up yesterday when today is a new day. I can never get acknowledgement that something is actually wrong and needs work, even though the behaviors are clearly so destructive to both of us.

[refusetosuccumb]

Suicide threats are scary and none of us are equipped to deal with them.

My exBPDh threatened suicide and I called the police.  When I left, he threatened again and I called them again.  Let's just say his threat of suicide was more of a manipulation than an attempt to end his life.  He's still alive and kicking.

Even if my ex did committ suicide, that is not on me.  We cannot control another person's actions.

[silentpartner]

Hey confusedinny I'm sorry but I laughed a little bit at your birthday story because it just sounded so familiar to me and if I wasn't laughing I might be crying.

Your whole story sounded pretty familiar to me right now - I have a girlfriend with BPD with whom I've been really successful creatively and personally. However the craziness is also similar and I'm really wondering whether I could have a family and kids with this girl.

Longitudinal studies show that DBT therapy for BPD is effective but it does require the person to accept that they have a problem and commit to therapy. Whether your girlfriend can do that or not is ultimately up to her. The fact that she is lying and blaming you doesn't bode well in my mind. I think I'm lucky in that my girlfriend doesn't do either of those things.

I am finding that the SET communication tool and setting and keeping boundaries are both very helpful. Finally, I'm really enjoying a break from my girlfriend. It sounds as though you wouldn't have any trouble finding another girl either - once she realises that and that her bad behaviour is ineffective, she might revert back to her better self.

I think a bit of optimism is warranted - remember that most of the posts here are from people whose relationships aren't working because those that have good relationships aren't here. I think it's worth giving some of these proven tools a go and seeing if you can improve things and if you can't after a certain time, run for the hills.

[confusedinny]

Thank you Silentpartner,

I appreciate the optimism... .and I think its good to laugh if you can. On one occasion I took her on a 3 day shopping trip. The entire 3 days were about shopping, getting things for her and her family, not myself. It may sound like I spoil her, but this was a special occasion and warranted it. On day #3 of doing things all for her, she went into a rage about how selfish I was because I hadn't taken her to this place before. I couldn't allow her to use that word given my actions in the last 72 hours were the very definition of unselfish, and hell, I did just take her to this place after all. Of course, my defensive behavior furthered the rage. But when she calmed down, she was able to concede that selfish was the wrong word and I apologized for being defensive. Her anger lasted about an hour, not bad.

After learning about SET, I feel confident I can help ease her when she's approaching a rage state. When she reaches that point, she's typically verbally attacking me on something irrational and my responses always make her feel I'm being defensive and it sets her off further. It always felt normal to me to defend myself in some way, but now I can see that being sympathetic to her fears, no matter how irrational they may seem, would make her feel much better and calm her down. The rages aren't very frequent (in my mind). Once a month perhaps... and they are the least of my worries with her. She's able to calm down and bring herself back fairly quickly and she has an awareness about how to handle them.

If it was just the rages, I could stay with her. The lies... .much tougher to come to grips with as I have no idea the extent and if she has the ability to stop.

The other thing she does all of the time... she gets incredibly frustrated as if she's told me things in the past and I make her repeat herself all the time. Sometimes I do certainly, but not all of the time. Its like she likes to shut me down sometimes... "But I told you this. Must I always repeat myself!"

It doesn't seem appropriate to only post the negative. She's from a country where the odds of getting out are slim. She saw death and violence all around. As an orphan, she managed to pull herself out and has dedicated herself to helping young girls in her home country. And she's doing a kick ass job of it. I couldn't be more proud of her.

Silentpartner, thanks again for the comments and best of luck to you.

[Narellan]

Hi confusedinny.

Please read as much as you can in our resources section on BPD. I also found reading other members posts very enlightening.

In answer to your questions, the short answer is BPD doesn't go away. Even with years of therapy that she would need to be willing to do, progress can be very slow.

I'm going to be brutally honest with you. You are seeking advice and have a short time span to decide what to do. So this is my honest opinion. You are not married, you don't have children together, you are deciding which path to take.

Quote "  I did leave her when she cheated and when she punched me." Your answer is here. She has cheated and punched you. Do you want a future with a woman who does this? This behaviour is typical BPD and frequently gets worse over time. Would you trust this person with your babies if any were to come along?

In any relationship there needs to be trust. Trust that the other person will not cheat and not harm you.

Given your short time span I wouldn't be wasting any more time on her.

Look after yourself 

[Strangerinthemirror]

Confused, like everyone else on here, I think you should get out as soon as you can. It doesn't get any better over time. My T told me once that for BPD, his recommended course to treatment is a min of 12 months of intensive therapy (each week, 2 hours of group therapy, one hour of individual therapy, and coaching calls in between) -- the goal of which is symptom reduction, by which he meant that if the patient's rage burned to 90 before therapy, maybe there would be an improvement to a 70). Even that level of reduction requires the patient to work very hard and to be very committed to change. Personally, had I understood that when my uBPDw did DBT for a few months, I would have given up then. Instead, my relationship continued another 3 years. Over the course of 5 years, I had my nose broken, dealt with a couple of suicide attempts, bullying, screaming, pushing and shoving, and outright blackmail (both emotional and actual). During that time, I made a few attempts to break up but somehow let myself live with situation, which meant countless days of confusion, self-doubt, shame, embarrassment, and financial loss. I always thought, "well, she's sick and needs me, she suffers from abandonment issues so I can't be just another guy well leaves her". Foolish but that's par for the course for someone in a relationship w someone with BPD. it just ain't worth the heartache, dude. BPD doesn't go away, at best it can be managed after years of therapy. If you've got the option, get out. Trying to convince your gf she has BPD is virtually impossible -- she's not going to like hearing you even hint she's got issues. That's part of the disorder, an inability to look inside or endure criticism. Save your time, anguish, and yourself. You can't fix her. Trying is a dead end.

[confusedinny]

I spent a few days away in the woods digesting everything as best as I could with sparse communication with her. This has made her fearful with very clingy communication. I've felt in these days like I know what I must do, but its felt like ripping my guts out as I've been completely dedicated to protecting her and getting her life to a stable place. I feel like I'm sticking the knife in the place she's most vulnerable, and I still love her, and its without question the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life.

I've attributed a lot of the issues in our relationship to cultural differences... .i never would have been able to tie all of these symptoms together to understand the deeper pattern without this website and I'm very grateful for that and for everyone's input. There are other things people mention in threads that ring true. The lethargy... .just staying in bed sometimes for days on end. The difficulty in getting her to do very simple things that I'd like to do. Go out for dinner. Take a walk. When she finally engages, she's a gem, but it is typically a battle.

I know what I must do. I'm going back to the feeling of sitting in a public place while she is beginning to have a meltdown. And the threat of her doing and saying anything with complete disregard for consequence. The paralyzing fear that came along with that for me. The feeling of being held hostage by her irrational behavior. The physical violence. The lies. I'm trying to stay focused on these things as I build the courage.

[half-life]

Cultural difference might just be a convenient excuse. Does her culture encourage rage and irrationality? I'm from a non-western culture myself. So at least I have two different reference points. For all I know, all culture encourage virtuous behavior and generally discourage conflicts.

I know the guilt and pain you are struggling with right now. Let me inject more logic into this. What is the other alternative? The most likely outcome is the rage and conflict will intensify progressively as years go by. At variously point of life you will come back to revisit the same dilemma. The suffering and pain of separation will only be much deeper, possibly with your children involved. I don't want to be so negative. I think the choices in front of you are great pain now or great pain of a life time.

I reread my journal from 15 years ago. I didn't know anything about BPD back then. I was trying to make sense of the problems. It was remarkable that I have already observed every problem that I know today. I have never made a deliberated choice. I just go with the flow and let things slide. Despite my valiant effort, I have only oppressed myself and the problem have never gotten any better.

[tbddbt]

Building up the courage is very hard.  After 20 years together, I keep thinking I can break it off but I keep getting pulled back.  Guilt trips--  "I need you"  "I have no one else who cares about me" and the suicide threats tear my heart out.  She makes me feel like the scum of the earth if I were to leave.  Unfortunately, a "weakness" with Nons is that we are wired to feel compassion and empathy and some feel this more than others.  She does it because it works and she will do anything to keep you and the cycle going when she's fearing abandonment.  I understand this intellectually.  Emotionally, I'm not equipped to handle it.

[confusedinny]

As far as culture... .where she's from, and the types of relationships she's had, beating is very much a part of the male/female relationship and adult/child relationships... .in schools it was okay for teachers to beat students etc... Her expectation of the role I should be playing as "man" of the house, is much much different than the role I play here or what I witnessed in my upbringing. To her, I'm soo soft she didn't initially understand it and felt something was weird and it caused a lot of confusion early on and sparked conflicts between us. I'm aware now that cultural differences don't explain all of her behavior, but we are from such different backgrounds, it has played a huge part in some misunderstandings.

I'm going to meet tonight with a BPD specialist to talk through everything.

I also had a call today with my girlfriend and brought up our issues and explained that we cannot continue the way we have been with such turmoil. I said we both must have an emotionally stable home. That type of conversation historically would immediately trigger blame and avoidance, but today she was very calm and responsive and easy to talk to on it. This could be her sensing I have one foot out the door.

[christoff522]

As far as culture... .where she's from, and the types of relationships she's had, beating is very much a part of the male/female relationship and adult/child relationships... .in schools it was okay for teachers to beat students etc... Her expectation of the role I should be playing as "man" of the house, is much much different than the role I play here or what I witnessed in my upbringing. To her, I'm soo soft she didn't initially understand it and felt something was weird and it caused a lot of confusion early on and sparked conflicts between us. I'm aware now that cultural differences don't explain all of her behavior, but we are from such different backgrounds, it has played a huge part in some misunderstandings.

I'm going to meet tonight with a BPD specialist to talk through everything.

I also had a call today with my girlfriend and brought up our issues and explained that we cannot continue the way we have been with such turmoil. I said we both must have an emotionally stable home. That type of conversation historically would immediately trigger blame and avoidance, but today she was very calm and responsive and easy to talk to on it. This could be her sensing I have one foot out the door.

Like you say, this is her sensing one foot in the door. Its not real, as soon as she feels you're comfortable and settled she will carry on as normal, however she will begin getting her feet out of the door too. She will leave before you leave.

[confusedinny]

I saw a therapist tonight who specializes in co-depedancy and BPD. It was the first time I'd ever given anyone the full details of her behavior. It sounded like a horror story and the more I went on the more I couldn't believe this was my life and my girlfriend. The T couldn't say for certain at this time if I was describing BPD or simply an extremely selfish manipulative woman who is used to getting her way. The symptoms to me seem so similar, not sure how one can differentiate.

It was helpful to discuss my boundaries. And the life that I envision for myself. And at what point is the pain absorbed simply too much.

The session was very helpful as I wrote my girlfriend tonight letting her know I was in therapy and really struggling with the relationship. i accepted responsibility for not establishing clear boundaries, and for enabling and triggering her and let her know i was working on my part but i could not go on this way any longer. I laid out the various things she has done to me and said i needed her to acknowledge her part and to let me know how she would work on herself as well to make the relationship better.

If she can't acknowledge her behavior, have the conversation, and put serious effort to change... .it will be very easy for me to walk away at this time. If she responds calmly with a willingness to do the work, then I have a tougher decision to make.

[christoff522]

I saw a therapist tonight who specializes in co-depedancy and BPD. It was the first time I'd ever given anyone the full details of her behavior. It sounded like a horror story and the more I went on the more I couldn't believe this was my life and my girlfriend. The T couldn't say for certain at this time if I was describing BPD or simply an extremely selfish manipulative woman who is used to getting her way. The symptoms to me seem so similar, not sure how one can differentiate.

It was helpful to discuss my boundaries. And the life that I envision for myself. And at what point is the pain absorbed simply too much.

The session was very helpful as I wrote my girlfriend tonight letting her know I was in therapy and really struggling with the relationship. i accepted responsibility for not establishing clear boundaries, and for enabling and triggering her and let her know i was working on my part but i could not go on this way any longer. I laid out the various things she has done to me and said i needed her to acknowledge her part and to let me know how she would work on herself as well to make the relationship better.

If she can't acknowledge her behavior, have the conversation, and put serious effort to change... .it will be very easy for me to walk away at this time. If she responds calmly with a willingness to do the work, then I have a tougher decision to make.

All I can say really is good luck. I know from experience that BPDs are essentially little kids. You will struggle to get any real acknowledgment of fault on their part... even if they say "I'm so sorry that I'm like this", its really just an attempt at garnering sympathy from you so you will stick around.

It's a much twisted world they live in. There will be no serious effort to change, never... they will think that you're crazy LONG before they would ever even consider that they weren't just... different, or just themselves. I told mine she had BPD she said "I'm just me, I'm just (name)"... An hour later she said the same thing and I said yes, you are definitely unique. Her reply... no, I'm just 'me'.

If you can see the insanity there... this is how hard it would be to get them to actually, internally admit that they're bonkers. My friend - well, former friend, went to hospital after trying to get high off cough medicine at the age of 27, the doctor diagnosed him BPD, he loves to bandy the title around, but I'm pretty sure he's not in therapy.

BPD's don't want to change... this is BORDERLINE NARCISSISM. To admit that what they have is a flaw and not some aspect of their personality that should be honoured and loved unconditionally is impossible. BPD is personality, not chemical... its not emotional... its THEM. If you got them into ten years of therapy, and they actually got sorted out... the person who came out would not be the one you fell in love with, nor would they be cured. It cannot be cured, not without a personality transplant.

You probably NEED to do this so I wouldn't discourage it. But I will say this, shes never going to change. You may be able to get her to go to a session or two, but she will never forgive you for it, and she will not stick around if this is the route you are going. You need to get out son.

[Narellan]

My exuBPD said during a few conversations that he wished he was like other guys. He said he knew he was different from age 18 (46 now). We never mentioned BPD. He was in a serious car accident at age 19 which caused frontal lobe damage and he told me that emotionally he'd never develop past a 19 yo. In another conversation after I'd spent a few months researching BPD and learning tools he said " you are the very best friend I've ever had Narellan. If only you knew how much I love you. Without even knowing it you've helped me deal with problems I've been battling on my own for my whole life"

Well I knew he was referring to BPD but we didn't discuss it any further. I don't know if he's ever had treatment for his "problems" but he certainly had awareness of them.

[OutOfEgypt]

How do you get your partner who is BPD to accept they have a problem and to seek help? Getting my gf to admit there is a problem feels like it would be such a big step.

I believe there is a section on one of these boards for communicating this type of thing.  In my experience, it was a total trainwreck.  I confronted her after a very long and painful marriage.  I told her, and I was summarily blamed, hated, mocked, lied to, and then she filed for divorce to "protect herself" since I "thought such bad things about her."  And then when she saw I was serious about leaving, the switch flipped and she was the sweetest, most endearing person you'd ever meet.  And I got sucked back in.  Then once she knew she had me again, suddenly it was back to being all about her and if I was tending to her needs enough.

Is treatment out there effective? How long does it take for treatment to become effective as these issues feel so deeply rooted...

In some cases.  :)epending on the person, many therapists do not believe BPD/NPD is treatable.  From what I've read and talked to my T about, it is pretty rare.  Even then, it becomes more of a matter of managing those manipulative, destructive, self-seeking impulses rather than eradicating them.  And from what I gather, making *some* progress can take years.

I cannot tell you what to do because it needs to be your decision or it will not stick.  However, in my humble opinion you should run like the wind.  The best you can hope for, unless she undergoes years of treatment (and maybe still), is a person who will keep doing this to you EVEN THOUGH you've spent so much time and energy becoming an expert in trying to cope with her triggers and moods and manipulation.  My take is... .if she's the cheating, lying type, she's going to do it again... .and again... .and again... .and again.  I was warned about 9 years ago, and I did not (could not) listen.  Boy, I wish I had.

So, from a purely pragmatic point of view, if you leave her now (assuming you do not have children with her?)... .you save yourself YEARS of hell and serious trauma.  It doesn't just hurt.  It messes you up.  It alters the course of your life.  There are many other women out there to love: women who are capable of REAL emotional connection, women who can love you back -not only when they see you leaving.  But I tell you what, even if I remain single for the rest of my life it is better than going back to what I (and my children) experienced.

Here's where its going to get tricky.  As soon as she senses you are ready to leave, she's going to be a perfect angel.  But once she has you committed and interested again, she's going to do the same thing.  This is why it's almost like you have to make your own decision for the course of your life that is NOT based on her reaction.  Otherwise, you'll be stuck in that for years... .back and forth.

My ex DID go to therapy for about 9 months, and the therapist was aware that she may be BPD/NPD.  It didn't help.  She manipulated the therapist.  She used it against me, claiming that *I* was the one who would "never get better," and she was "doing great."  It emboldened her to follow her desires and blame me, since I was "failing" her (again).  But when I finally got fed up with her lying and hanging around this other guy all the time, and then found out about her fooling around with him and an 18-year-old friend of our son, that was it for me.  And guess what?  Suddenly she was all hurt and sad.  A day before, I was the loser and she was the one walking away in triumph, saying we can "still be friends".  Then I tell her I'm really done and she panics.  

If she sounds at all like my ex, you MUST make your decisions based on YOU and YOU alone, not her behaviors, not her promises, not her reactions.  Otherwise, you are just letting her control the show and you're flushing years of your life down the drain... .not to mention thousands of dollars -between what she spends of your money and how much you wind up spending on therapists!  They are pathological.  They will not change.  They'll follow the same trajectory every time.

[OutOfEgypt]

When she realized on her own accord she'd forgotten my birthday she immediately accused me of cheating (unfounded) and went into a rage and the fact that she had forgotten my birthday was lost in a swirling cloud of accusations and my birthday was never mentioned again.

Yes.  And exactly... .the original issue is completely lost and you are too tired to even mention it after all of that, which is precisely what she wants.

[confusedinny]

Her written response was all about blaming me and exaggerating and not owning up to anything... .

"What a horrible note to wake up to. I'd never do this to you"

"The reason I cheated was because you weren't making me feel secure that you'd marry me"

"Well, I guess I'm the worst person in the world"

"I'm the terrible one I guess, I thought we were past this"

"I can see that my being away has made you distant from me. It's only made me love you more"

"I told you I'd never let the devil between us ever again"

Part of the problem is her culture blames demons and voodoo for bad behavior. They don't think highly of therapy. She did admit once to her sister that she thought she was BPD. Her sister's response was that she thought she was simply quick to anger.  

She called in the middle of writing this... .She initially said she had no idea what i was talking about, that we haven't had lows in our relationship. That it was a normal relationship. She eventually conceded that point and it became all about how I always must bring up the past and she never brings up all of the bad things I've done to her. No one else in her life has problems with her, its only me. And that she's so stressed with everything else, and now she must worry about our relationship. Finally, she asked what she must do. She said she'd already told me she would pray about her anger, what else must she do.

I currently live in the hills. You'd think it'd be easier to run for them.

[half-life]

Other than the voodoo part, I have heard many of the same lines.

[confusedinny]

She reached back out and broke down...

"I have been thru a lot in my life... rape, physical and verbal abuse, hunger, having nowhere to call home, you name it. So I've always felt I had to protect myself and my heart. it takes me a long long time to feel safe with anyone. i'm sorry you feel this way about me. i really loved you because i could see gods love for me thru you"

so tough. she's hearing me more clearly now, and acknowledges her shortcomings, but gets hung up on the negativity surrounding the idea of a therapist. for her, god and church is the answer and she feels she's been making a lot of progress that way

ugh. i didn't call myself confusedinny for nothing. this girl is so strong, has gone from the greatest depths of despair to be a true inspiration and role model for her country. i've so loved helping her in her journey to get this far, it kills me to play any role pushing her back down.

i appreciate everyone's input, its all spot on.

[OutOfEgypt]

My ex was through a lot, too.  Similar things.  And she admitted during a few lucid moments that she basically learned how to "survive" because she really had nobody.  It is a sad story.  But, at least for my story, it doesn't change how monstrous she is.  

I'm not a huge comic book fan, but I always find it interesting how the villains have a backstory that shows how they used to be normal, everyday, even goodhearted people.  But bad things happened to them, and they became twisted.  It is sad.  But they're still destroying people, now.

I'm not saying she's a villain.  I'm just using that as example.  That's a good explanation she gave, but how many of us could say something similar?  I'm not saying it is B/S.  I'm just saying that, from my own experience, that is good but it is miles away from ownership.  There are lots of alcoholics, for example, that know they are alcoholics, blame it having issues from a bad childhood, but still drink all the time.  Let's hope it gets there, though.

And please don't take this as a put-down about her, because I know you care about her, and I know she has been through a lot, but if she's doing terrible things to people who care about her and shutting her heart down, it doesn't really sound like she's really conquered any of those things... .more like just survived it.  Using the alcoholic analogy again... .would anybody look at an alcoholic who spends their off-time at bars every night and say, "That person went through so much and look at how strong they are!"  I wouldn't.  BPD people are great at *appearing* strong in a myriad of ways, but that isn't strength.  That is their false self, their facade to cover their shame.  It takes far more strength to emotionally worth through your pain and get to the place where you take responsibility and stop shutting everyone out and hurting people.

My ex went through a lot, and in some ways she has come a long way.  She is far more functional than she was in her past.  And yes, it is great that she went through the things she did and actually survived.  And I'm not saying she has no good qualities or contributions, but it was not her love and pleasant encouragement that made me the man that I am today.  It was the hell she put me through.  I'm stronger, kinder, more open, more compassionate, more patient, more in tune with myself, and more emotionally connected to myself, my kids and others -not less.  Some of us take responsibility and go the other way.  I imagine you would, too, and are.  But BPD's don't, except in rare circumstances.

I had a counselor tell me once:  "She'll never change unless God breaks her into a million pieces and then puts her back together again."  The change required is not like working through anxiety issues or a little depression.  We're talking about the very fabric of who they are and how they live and relate to others in this world.

I wish I could tell you what to do, but I can't.  I can just share what I've been through and my thoughts based on my experience.

[confusedinny]

No offense taken at all. I appreciate you taking the time. My head wasn't even in the game until a week ago when I found this board. Had no clue what I might be up against or how to possibly cope with her behaviors.

I've verified her story, it's real and agreed im sure most have a horrible story to tell. The last 12 months with me are essentially the only time since she was 16 that she's been in a truly caring and stable environment.

[OutOfEgypt]

That is tough.  Though she may never admit it, I'm pretty sure my ex will never have it as good as she had it with me. 

[confusedinny]

No doubt. My girl will say I'm her life and I'm the best thing that has happened to her regularly. But it doesn't stop the destructive behavior. She expresses it's too good to be true and it makes her feel therefore something about me or the situation is fake or she's waiting to discover this horrible thing.

[OutOfEgypt]

I still have love notes from her -not many, but some.  She would say things like, "I don't know what I would do in this world if I did not have you."  I don't see that the same way as I did then.  Or... .I do see it the same way, but I don't see *that* in the same light.  What I mean is... .I knew when she said that what she meant.  She meant that I was basically like a dad to her, someone she "needed" for safety and protection, who loved her unconditionally and would still be there no matter what she did.  I was the dad who indulged his spoiled rotten daughter while she yelled and threw things at him, clobbered his self-esteem, blamed him for her misery (and his own), and then snuck out the window at night to hump her boyfriend and sneak back in before daddy saw.  But if I did it was more like, "oops!  daddy caught me!  I'm sorry, daddy!  I'm going to play for a while and do whatever I want, and I know you'll take me back.  By the way, aren't I cute?"  I used to see that kind of "need" of me as semi-endearing.  I don't anymore.  I see it as sad.  I see the whole situation as terribly dysfunctional.