BPDx's proposed custody of alienated child

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

3 years 50/50 and he has effectively alienated d11

she has bonding and anxiety issues from years of BPD dad and its only worse with 50/50

d11 has split with him

no eye contact

cps worker is "helping us communicate"

sees the attachment issues.

d11 is close to RAD symptoms at this point.

and dad recommends this

"I'm going to try again to initiate a conversation with you, regarding D11. She has expressed to me for some time, about 6 months, that she wants to move in with me full-time. She has said consistently that she wants to maintain relationship with you, and has suggested a possible schedule for visiting with you, every other weekend, when I'm oncall. When she first brought this up, I simply listened and told her to wait and see how things go. At that time, our divorce was not even finalized. In the interim, she has continued to voice this desire, and has been quite consistent about her reasons. I want to be quite clear here, I have not encouraged this idea of hers, but I have told her that I think she should participate in her parenting plan at this level of maturity. I also expressed my interest in helping her facilitate getting her needs and wishes met. I explained that if she had told me she wanted to move in full-time with you, that I would be busy looking for ways to make that work well for her, as I think her needs are primary. My interest is in having her voice heard and honored, not in having her move in with me. Clearly, my life would become more complicated and challenging if she were to move in with me, but I'm willing to make it work for her sake. I know D11 has told you, as well, about her wishes. However, it appears neither she nor I have been successful in trying to engage you in the conversation.

What do you think should happen from here? I'm not comfortable simply ignoring the issue, and hoping it'll go away - 6 months later, it hasn't gone away. As far as I can see, we have choice:

We can continue not addressing this issue

We can just say "no" to D11

We can try to agree among ourselves on changes in the parenting plan

We can engage our attorneys if we can't agree.


I think it's time some decisions were made, and I'd like to hear your thoughts."

could not get my atorneys attention on this the first time. divorce settlement

I am lawyer shoping


headed to psch evals etc.etc.

for those of you who have been through the process, who in the chain of command will evere look at all the crazy "threatening MORE alienation if you  dont change your  ways "  cps wont look at them, they just say, get a lawyer.

do I just have a crappy lawyer?

[nona]

3 years 50/50 and he has effectively alienated d11

she has bonding and anxiety issues from years of BPD dad and its only worse with 50/50

d11 has split with him

no eye contact

cps worker is "helping us communicate"

sees the attachment issues.

d11 is close to RAD symptoms at this point.

and dad recommends this

"I'm going to try again to initiate a conversation with you, regarding D11. She has expressed to me for some time, about 6 months, that she wants to move in with me full-time. She has said consistently that she wants to maintain relationship with you, and has suggested a possible schedule for visiting with you, every other weekend, when I'm oncall. When she first brought this up, I simply listened and told her to wait and see how things go. At that time, our divorce was not even finalized. In the interim, she has continued to voice this desire, and has been quite consistent about her reasons. I want to be quite clear here, I have not encouraged this idea of hers, but I have told her that I think she should participate in her parenting plan at this level of maturity. I also expressed my interest in helping her facilitate getting her needs and wishes met. I explained that if she had told me she wanted to move in full-time with you, that I would be busy looking for ways to make that work well for her, as I think her needs are primary. My interest is in having her voice heard and honored, not in having her move in with me. Clearly, my life would become more complicated and challenging if she were to move in with me, but I'm willing to make it work for her sake. I know D11 has told you, as well, about her wishes. However, it appears neither she nor I have been successful in trying to engage you in the conversation.

What do you think should happen from here? I'm not comfortable simply ignoring the issue, and hoping it'll go away - 6 months later, it hasn't gone away. As far as I can see, we have choice:

We can continue not addressing this issue

We can just say "no" to D11

We can try to agree among ourselves on changes in the parenting plan

We can engage our attorneys if we can't agree.


I think it's time some decisions were made, and I'd like to hear your thoughts."

could not get my atorneys attention on this the first time. divorce settlement

I am lawyer shoping


headed to psch evals etc.etc.

for those of you who have been through the process, who in the chain of command will evere look at all the crazy "threatening MORE alienation if you  dont change your  ways "  cps wont look at them, they just say, get a lawyer.

do I just have a crappy lawyer?

[ForeverDad]

She's getting close to an age where her wishes could be factored in, depending on your location/state.  But it's not like he's got minimal time and trying to make it equitable, it's already equal time.  So there ought to be some monumental need to merit a change.

If the divorce is final, then in my state they'd make him wait at least a year and then if it had a custodial impact then he'd need to prove to a court a Change in Circumstances.

I just finished a 15 month (July 2012 to Dec 2013) case seeking majority time, we had equal time but I already had custody since 2011, so we didn't need another Change of Circumstances.  However, my motion to get majority time took just as long and was just as or more expensive. :'(  I barely got majority time, but ex got to keep equal time during summers despite a finding that mother 'disparaged' father in presence of the child.  I think what swung it was that she had more tardies getting our son to school, I did more homework with him and she misbehaved during a school field trip.  Really, I think her disparaging was a big silent factor, except magistrate let ex keep equal time during the summer.  One of my 'disparaging' recordings played in court was in the middle of summer.  Go figure.

In most cases, such as mine, mothers have an unspoken edge and it takes a lot to chip away at a mother's parenting, but I don't know how your courts are.

Does she have an experienced and perceptive counselor?

[Waddams]

My thoughts:

-Follow your court orders.  No need to engage in arguing with your ex- or debating things with your D11.  Just follow the order, and anytime they ask for otherwise, just respond you are going to follow the order.  No JADE'ing with him or her.  End of discussion.

Custody changes usually require a material change in circumstances.  There isn't one here.  His and your D11's wishes/thinking don't constitute a material change in circumstances, especially this soon after the divorce.

-Get D11 into counseling.  Work with the counselor and let the counselor guide D11 through the in's and out's of this situation.

Beyond that, I suspect you likely don't need a L yet.  If your ex- begins to withhold your D11 from you, then it's a contempt issue and that's actionable.  Beyond that, quote the order as a response and don't otherwise engage.

Also, if you can, try to find a counselor that is a Ph.D level therapist.  Someone that the court will recognize as an expert.  In my jurisdiction, if they aren't called ":)octor", they aren't considered experts when it comes to therapists, counselors, evaluators, etc.  Let the T document the alienation and start helping to combat it.  I wouldn't even begin to use the alienation term either with T, at least initially.  Just describe background of the situation and that D11 is having a very hard time adjusting and settling into the new routine.  Then as the process unfolds, slowly let the T see documentation of what's happening and put the pieces together.

This all takes patience.  Lots of patience, and lots of love for your D11.  Be the boss, enforce the order, set boundaries with your D11 and your ex- that you won't discuss further custody changes.  Let the T document things and slowly turn this around. 

[Matt]

Have you discussed this with D11?

What does she say?

Are there any open issues in front of the court?  That is, is the legal process ongoing right now?

[livednlearned]

"I'm going to try again to initiate a conversation with you, regarding D11. She has expressed to me for some time, about 6 months, that she wants to move in with me full-time. She has said consistently that she wants to maintain relationship with you, and has suggested a possible schedule for visiting with you, every other weekend, when I'm oncall. When she first brought this up, I simply listened and told her to wait and see how things go. At that time, our divorce was not even finalized. In the interim, she has continued to voice this desire, and has been quite consistent about her reasons. I want to be quite clear here, I have not encouraged this idea of hers, but I have told her that I think she should participate in her parenting plan at this level of maturity. I also expressed my interest in helping her facilitate getting her needs and wishes met. I explained that if she had told me she wanted to move in full-time with you, that I would be busy looking for ways to make that work well for her, as I think her needs are primary. My interest is in having her voice heard and honored, not in having her move in with me. Clearly, my life would become more complicated and challenging if she were to move in with me, but I'm willing to make it work for her sake. I know D11 has told you, as well, about her wishes. However, it appears neither she nor I have been successful in trying to engage you in the conversation.

What do you think should happen from here? I'm not comfortable simply ignoring the issue, and hoping it'll go away - 6 months later, it hasn't gone away. As far as I can see, we have choice:

We can continue not addressing this issue

We can just say "no" to D11

We can try to agree among ourselves on changes in the parenting plan

We can engage our attorneys if we can't agree.


I think it's time some decisions were made, and I'd like to hear your thoughts."

It's hard to read his email -- he is masquerading as a parent who cares deeply about his daughter's wishes. But a healthy parent wouldn't put her in the role he is. He doesn't recognize that it's not healthy to parentify a child, which is the way he characterizes his relationship with her in his email.

What 11 year old child would ever suggest a schedule? 11 year olds should be playing and hanging out with friends, not discussing every other weekend.

Also, your ex clearly doth protest too much.

I've followed your situation for a while, nona. He is clearly intelligent -- covering all his bases in case he is accused of alienating her. You mentioned that he has the town in his pocket. You have a parenting plan in place, and he hasn't filed to change it, correct?

How are you countering the alienation in your interactions with D11? Do you have a good T to help you navigate this?

[david]

lnl makes a really good point. My xBPDw used serious alienation tactics against me with our kids. They were 4.5 and 8 at the time she left. A few months after she left they came into my house and said in unison, "We hate you. We want to live with mom and never see you again."

I found a T for myself, this site, read Divorce Poison and other books that were suggested on this site. I then formulated a plan to counter the alienation. It took 10 months or more until I could communicate well with our oldest son. It took another 6 months before our youngest opened up to me. I learned to listen very well to them and to validate their perceptions. I never criticized ex but I didn't ignore her false allegations about me either.

At this time I would follow the court order.

Our boys are 15 and 11.5 now and we have a great relationship. Ex still tells them things that are simply not true but they have learned to deal with her lies.

[ForeverDad]

I don't see a change in custody in his request, just a change of schedule.  Big change, of course.

Does either parent currently pay the other parent child support?  If you become the minority time parent he likely will stop paying child support and probably could make you pay him child support, is that one of his goals?  Do you think he'll try for custody at the same time, or next once he gets this goal? 

Is she being influenced by other things too?  Does he provide more 'fun' and games at his home?  Does she spend time with her friends there more than when with you?

[livednlearned]

It is worrying that she won't have eye contact with you.

Some therapists will do "couples counseling" with kids and their parents. Can you find anyone in your small town who is willing to do that with you?

She needs someone to point out that she's avoiding eye contact with you.

When it gets serious like this, you need serious counter moves. If you don't have someone in your town who specializes in reunification therapy or parental alienation, I'm wondering if you can contact someone by phone -- not a life coach, but a real PhD with skills in this area. Ask questions about what you need to do, how to counter it.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

[nona]

Here is another way he communicates.

Ive posted this before.

I can't get anyone to look at or read the piles of these emails he writes, he is out and out threatening alienation above isnt he?

"I want to be very clear - I want you to understand.

"The next time I hear about you telling malicious lies about me, to D! or to anyone else, I will stop holding back. I will begin telling D the painful truths about you that I have not shared with her. She is trying very hard to hang onto whatever thin shreds of respect and love she still has for you. I've been trying to make that possible for her, by holding back many truths about you. I think, if I were to start sharing those truths with her, she would find it very difficult to keep even those last shreds intact."

I have hundreds of crazy emails from him.

he is getting much better at the letter writing just lately.

I think he may have caught onto building the paper trail.


I dunno what JADE is.

WIll study it.

I have been trying to counter alienation her entire life.

2years ago, after years of dd acting like the exorcist , i started validating, and DD calmed BIG TIME SUDDENLY validation worked to a point , but the alienation is strong, she is so anxious, she wants it over with.

I do have a psychologist with eyes on her. I am thinking of skipping a bunch of my summer holiday to get him to see her, and get her and I a plan to continue having eyes on her.

gonna talk to her teacher and get some advocacy to keep her in with the best counseling I can find.

I think that IS the best thing I can do. thanks gotta run more later.

[Matt]

Keep those e-mails.  A competent attorney would find them very useful.

[livednlearned]

Keep those e-mails.  A competent attorney would find them very useful.

It might be a good idea to share these with the psychologist. Does the psychologist understand alienation?

[david]

The fact that she can't look you in the eye is telling. It sounds as if she knows the truth but doesn't know how to cope/deal with it.

If she is with you for a couple of days do things get better ? Our boys would be off the wall for several hours and then be themselves again when I used to pick them up. The transition time got better (shorter) when I learned how to better listen and validate. They also learned other coping strategies when they were with their mom.

[livednlearned]

Also -- this just occurred to me. It's what allowed me to have a big breakthrough with S12. It's kind of advanced validation... . and you need to handle it carefully and do it with the help of a therapist. It's the kind of thing that a therapist can help you with individually, or in counseling with your D.

Many times, N/BPDx would send emails that said, "S12 says this about you." My therapist encouraged me to take those messages to S12 and say, "I got a message from your dad that says you feel xyz. I'm confused and wanted to make sure that this is how you truly feel."

It made S12 really angry -- he was mad that his dad was saying these things. N/BPDx capitalized on the fact that I would never do that -- and until I saw a therapist, he was right. What happened is that S12 began (on some level) to understand how it felt when someone lied about you. Until then, S12 didn't really connect emotionally to how the lies about me might impact someone. He also realized, because I modeled it, that when someone says something mean and false, it's a good idea to check it out. So for your D, it tells her that she can do the same thing. Right now, she is not trying to check reality. Her dad is telling her stuff about you, and she isn't asking you if it's true.

Not sure this will work in your situation, but I do believe that too many of us don't shine light on the truth, even with our kids.

I've been dating a man whose ex wife uses alienation tactics on his kids. He started to confront every falsehood directly and it's remarkable to see things slowly turn around. There is a way to deal with alienation that is assertive and effective -- I hope you're getting good advice about this. You need someone who's a pro to help you with this.

[Matt]

":)ad said you did such-and-such."

"Is that true?"

"What do you mean?"

"You heard someone say 'Mom did such-and-such.'.  Is that true - did I really do what you were told?"

"I don't know.  How would I know?  I'm just telling you what he told me."

"And I believe that he told you that.  I'm just asking, is it true?  And it sounds like you don't know, right?  Well I can tell you, I never did such-and-such."

I've found that phrase - "Is it true?" - to be pretty helpful, to shine the light on what the child really knows and doesn't know.  The child knows what someone said, but not what really happened.

[broken3]

Unfortunately these kids have an unnecessary burden placed on them and they will live with guilt and fear no matter what is real or perceived.

Some will try to soothe the "outcast parent". Some will rebel against the parent who does everything while full well knowing they can actually hurt that parent because they can take it and are stable and not as fragile as the other parent.

The kids just want to be loved and have a good relationship with their parents.

And most definately some are alienated and manipulated and used as a tool and weapon.

I just keep saying and doing. " do the right thing no matter what".

Have I been hurt by some of the things the kids are "told"... . Absolutely.

Is it true?... . Not in the least.

I still believe that things happen for a reason.

I have survived and my kids are well. Not great. But well. Unfortunately its an ever evolving cycle which you deal with for years.

[david]

It's real important to confront the lies. It takes a certain knack and my T helped me do that the best. I made mistakes and learned from them. Over time our two boys began to check reality on their own. They learned that if they challenged mom directly things were not pleasant. They eventually learned how to check without getting mom's anger directed towards them.

I listened to them a lot (still do) and the trick they seemed to figure out was to not challenge mom at the moment of the lie. They would wait a few hours or days and when the opportunity was there they would question her about whatever they were trying to figure out. They caught their mom in so many lies they eventually realized she was not someone they could trust.

Once that happened they started trusting me more and talking to me more. I never denegrated their mom or said disparaging things about her. As that developed I noticed their mom actually lessened her attacks on me. I think she sensed they didn't believe her anymore so she stopped doing it as much. There was no incentive for her anymore.

[nona]

Thank you all for your time and kind replies.

GET THIS !

I called A big guy on the internet in chicago, codependency expert, makes youtubes on BPD's and codependents.

for $200.00 he turned ME in to CPS/MCFD(in Canada) for unstable CPTSD and BPD Dad abusing D11.

Will the SW put 2 and 2 together and look him up, and see who I was paying $200.00 an hour to turn me in?


2 counseling sessions  with SW, and D11 can "hear" her, cause she is not alienated. Aleady helps, I saw D11 change. she was a little safer tonite on the phone, I could tell.

Because BPDdad (a family doc) BULLIED my doctor, he is being investigated by MALPRACTICE company.

BPDDAD was very ill with his porn addiction for years doing it BETWEEN PATIENTS.

I wonder if there is a way to tip off the liability insurance to do an IT audit on him... . maybe they already will?

been thinking of ways to anonymously get this information into the investigators hands. he is a crazy liability risk.

hurt a patient last year.


His blocking D11's counseling and medical care is coming into light, as our daughter has medical problems, and now has ALL eyes on her.

her medical care has been neglected, in his control. it took me getting out to get her to doctors and he keeps changing her back to his colleague?

CPs, 2 attys, 2 clinical counselors tell me... . NO WAY should he be forcing her into his colleague's care.

Im asking CPS SW "help me change D11's Dr."  D11 and BPDX will FLIP.

Im thinking of a 3-4 way counseling session will blow th sw and psychologists minds, I cannot IMAGINE him cooperating,

because D11 has the same problems he is covering up ABOUT HIMSELF. He totally disregulates on the subject, this is why he has controlled it all so tightly for soo long.

He CANT ANYMORE

THE cat is out of the bag.

the record shows.

his stuff is getting uncovered and for the first time I AM GETTING TO ACTUALLY ADVOCATE for her for real.

I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW EMPOWERING THIS IS.

The cps SW states

1.":)11 should be seen by no less than a PHD counselor. (she will have to help this happen)

2. get a lawyer" (have one, consulted 2)

3. change her doctor ( gonna get SW involved in more)

The lawyers overreacted to his custody threat e-mail... . that could just be another  BPD bad day

both of them immediately "going to trial with CE's etc. etc.

Im more inclined to push her medical care

push counseling

not allow her to fall in the cracks.

find a lawyer that can strategize for the EVENTUAL...

counsel and guide me SLOWLY.

I had even considered just charging contempt only, but I think BPDx will screw up more in front of CPS.

Thinking of getting a  documentation email going with the SW about the above issues as well as the irony that 'I get turned in for being an unstable victim, and abuse of the child and she comes to my house, not his yet, even though in the beginning she said she would investigate both of us.'

although her attachment/spectrum advice is PRICELESS.

YOU were all right. it has taken 3 years of hell OUT. I have remained a diamond, trying to heal during this war.

you told me slow and steady, this is a marathon, not a sprint

pace yourself, he will screw up eventually

And you were right.

one small move ... . me being accountable to my healing work triggered so much support.

Feeling grateful. for the first time in a long time.

I can see how the counseing is the best thing for kiddos... . to untwist them, may be the best we can do if we cannot gain ground any other way. man what a long haul... .

[pilgrim]

. . . One of my 'disparaging' recordings played in court . . .

How do you get evidence of BPD parent disparaging the other parent to the child, when the parents live in separate homes?

I suspect it, but have no proof.