Patterns? Groundhog Day

[truenorth]

Patterns?  After almost a month (coincidentally when the social assistance cheque starts wearing thin... . we can always expect to hear from our son).  However that is the only contact  he has had with us for sometime.  Then he gets in a snit when he doesn't get his way and goes NC on us... . until next month.  Basically he'll say that we (my husband and I) both have good paying jobs (he hasn't been/isn't working) and therefore we should be giving him $ because for some reason he feels very entitled to that (for smokes and the like). My hubby again explained to him that we would like a relationship with him and with that we more than likely would feel like we could help him out financially from time to time.  He then got very reactive, started swearing at my hubby who then warned him about the language - and ended the call.  This pattern has repeated itself at least 3 times now... . when will it sink in?  It's almost like he wants what he wants and he doesn't hear us... . has anyone experienced this?  Just more manipulation - I think?  He is adamant that we are trying to control him - I guess because we tell him we Love him and want a relationship with him?  Yet he is the one asking us for money all the time.  I don't get it?  It's starting to feel like groundhog day.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

yes I think many of us can see the pattern... . I think your ds is going to push the limits and keep asking for money hoping one time you will say yes... . or maybe you did say yes one time a million years ago and he is hoping that might happen again. Try to be calm in these encounters... . stick with your boundaries and don't give in. I often feel like my dd15 doesn't hear me... . that is something I am dealing with a lot lately... . I also think that when they are having this emotional seizure they shut down and stop hearing anything we say... . it is trying to find a way to improve these kind of interactions that I think is key.

What are you willing to do for him? You don't want to give him money but would you drop off a bag of groceries at the end of the month before he had a chance to ask for money. Do you think this might break the pattern? simply leave a few things on his door step and saying you were out shopping and thought he might need a few things? Not sure you want this kind of interaction... . I am just trying to think of a way to break this pattern.

What exactly do you want from him? Maybe you could have him for sunday dinner? At least you know he shaving a good meal and he can even take some leftovers for the week?

I think you are doing the right thing... . keep your boundaries in place... .  

[truenorth]

We actually at one time were helping him out from time to time with Grocery cards or would drop by to take him Grocery shopping.  Then we found that the only  time he would call was when he needed cigarettes or groceries.  When we would go to take him shopping he would try and walk ahead of us in the store - refusing to speak with us. Then once we'd pay he'd say "Thanks" and turn around and walk away.  We also tried having him over for suppers different times but my youngest has been traumatized by him and is working with our therapist to get his anxiety under control. My youngest wants nothing to do with him and does not feel safe having him in the house - so we are respecting his wishes.  So the fact that my youngest does not want a relationship with him - he blames us for that.  Just like he blames us because he doesn't have a job or has sabotaged his chances of going to University.  It's like everything in his life is our fault therefore he wants nothing to do with us - but he's absolutely fine and there is nothing wrong with him  - according to him.  We told him we Love and miss him and want to have a relationship with him but we will not be treated like an bank machine and then ignored.  We told him no one likes to feel like they are being used and we are no different.  So that's where it's at right now.  He has cut everyone in the family off and the only time he'll reach out is if he needs money/groceries or smokes.  This has been going on since January. The last time he was home was Christmas.  Our boundary is we will not just hand over money to him only to be treated horribly at the same time.  If he wants to make some kind of effort and be in our lives then we could see our way clear to help him out with groceries and the things he needs from time to time.  We've also offered to include him in family walks or go up to where he is living and take him out, etc... . But he wants no part of that. Also we've offered to take him out for meals etc, but he can't sit in restaurants because his anxiety/paranoia are too much for him in those situations.  Everything we've offered he has basically shot down.

[jellibeans]

It looks like you have some pretty clear boundaries in place and that is good for you to have but I can't help feel like you are choosing your younger son over your older one. I think there must be a way to include him in family gathering with the younger son. I don't know all the details but I know I have issues with my two daughter. Each fighting for attention and rejecting the other. I try not to get involved in their fights and I tell them very clearly that they are sisters and that is not going to change. I tell my older daughter that she needs to accept that her sister is different and has challenges and that she will be the one to help her in the future when we are gone. I believe very strongly in family and I want my children to understand that excluding or repelling their sister is not an option and I will not participate in anything that excludes a family member. The one thing we can give our children are values and this is one I feel needs to be re-enforced.

I very wise person once told me... . is it more important for you to be right... . is it more important for you to dwell on the past? If you can't let go of the past you will never build a future with your son. I wish you well and want to urge you not to give up trying to build that bond with your son. I don't think it is okay for him to treat you all poorly but there must be a way to do something for him without expecting something in return. It seems this sets you up for a power struggle and everyone is more centered on this tug of war than on the real issues. To have a child with BPD mean accepting that they are not well and that they are not trying to manipulate you with everything they do. Take the anger out of it and use your wise mind. Find the skills necessary to improve the way you interact with him. You can't change him but you can yourself and that is the first step to improving your relationship.  

[truenorth]

Hi jellibeans,

Thank you for your reply.  My youngest actually has PTSD/anxiety which is a result of my oldest leaving/getting into drugs and alienating the family.  My hubby and I can recognize that he (the oldest) is ill and that these negative things that have happened are all a result of that.  My youngest used to be incredibly close to his brother - so much so that we used to joke that he had three parents.  Since the oldest has left the family it has almost been like a death - but with no closure.  My youngest worked hard to overcome his feelings to try and open himself up to trust again and have his brother back in his life.  Just when he did my oldest sabotaged the whole thing and and basically rejected us all all over again.  Something my husband and I were able to forgive but not so much my youngest.  So while my younger son is working with a therapist we are following her advice to give him the space he needs right now to work through his feelings.  Unfortunately I feel like I am caught in the middle wanting my family to heal together but trying to respect that my youngest has been horribly wounded throughout this whole ordeal and give him the time and space he needs to heal.

Our therapist feels it is vital to honor our youngest sons feelings and not force my older son on him or it could irreparably damage their relationship.  Given what he's gone through - I feel like I need to protect him too. 

Unfortunately the oldest feels like we are somehow influencing the younger one to want nothing to do with him - and nothing could be further than the truth.  We Love both our boys and want the family to heal together but there are a lot of different dynamics  at play.  I wish it were that simple. 

[jellibeans]

truenorth

isn't this always the way... . there is always more to the story.It must be hard to balance the relationships between your two sons. I can't think of a harder thing to endure. I hope is time your family can be reunited... . I think you probably would be best to put some boundaries in place to better protect yourself and your younger son... . but I would also like you to look at ways to reach out to you son. I think this is possible with boundaries in place and I am sure in time if you all keep trying there will be a time when you can all be together. Time can heal and I hope in time you all can be reunited.  

[truenorth]

Hi jellibeans,

Thank you for your kind words of hope/support.  It's funny you say that about boundaries... .   I was starting to be very frustrated with the whole boundary thing because I was not wanting to send my older son mixed messages WRT boundaries and to be honest was starting to feel very used by him.  After a frank chat with our T I was able to see it's OK to readjust boundaries without fear of sending mixed messages as long as some semblance of boundary can be enforced. Out T feels it is vital to maintain some kind of "Hope" in the situation.  Although to be frank it had been starting to wear very thin.  I think the biggest thing for us is to be able to provide support to my oldest without feeling like we are being held hostage by his demands.  If we can drop off grocery cards to him or offer to take him grocery shopping on our schedule (when it is convenient for us) and not necessarily when he demands it - I think this might be a way to maintain our boundary.  She said this way some trust can hopefully be built and the relationship can be given a new starting point.  Hopefully he will still see the support and Love with no expectations from him.  As for my younger son we always talk like it is our hope that the whole family can heal/reunite in the future but we understand his feelings and support him where he is at.  It is a difficult balancing act and one that always seems to need readjusting on both sides of the fence, so to speak... .

[vivekananda]

Hi truenorth   

jellibeans has had wise words to share with you. It is reassuring isn't to know that this place is here where there are people who understand. When I read your first post here, I thought... . welcome to the club    my situation is a bit different, but still the same. I have found that the more I learnt about BPD, the more I could understand and make sense of my situation.

With my dd32, the first thing I did was sort out our boundaries. Just like you, the only contact we had was when money was wanted. I read the workshops here on boundaries and came up with the idea that we would only give money if we saw receipts or invoices. This was based on our need to have some semblance of knowing what we were paying for. The result of this painful boundary, was n/c. My next step was to work on validation. I read the workshops here, read the books recommended and am now working on rebuilding a relationship with my dd, very slowly and not without its ups and downs. We have agreed to pay for her T and some yoga and meditation classes without receipts - but that is all we have put money out for.

We are waiting to see if it all goes belly up again because we expect she has some debts she can't get out of. She has had the power cut off already... . but we feel calm in that our boundaries are value based and we have been able to support her, not enable her.

Have you investigated validation?

best wishes,

Vivek    

[truenorth]

Hi Vivek ,

Thank you for your response.  While I would wish a similar fate on no one - it is strangely comforting to know that we are not alone.  Tonight I went up to where my eldest son is living.  I had called him yesterday offering to take him for groceries (I offered to pay).  He told me he was busy and so we made arrangements for tonight.  I got there 15 minutes early as traffic was not as bad as I thought it would be (he lives about 30 min away).  I called the Shelter house phone to tell him I was waiting in the parking lot.  Whomever answered told me he had gone out. 

I decided to wait anyways thinking he may show up around that time.  He did and made a point of walking ahead of me on the sidewalk staring at me as he walked past.  He then crossed the road and went up the road away from me texting someone as he went.  It happened so quickly and shocked me.  He was walking back up a one way street that I could now not access.  I was so upset I just decided to leave.  Hurt and disappointed again.  Try as I might to remind myself that "he is untreated" it is difficult to continually take the high road and turn the other cheek when he seems so bent on being hurtful and destructive to those that love him most.

[vivekananda]

How deeply hurtful that is. How sad that is.   

you said:

... . he seems so bent on being hurtful and destructive to those that love him most.

You are right, you say, 'it seems'. That's how it feels to you, but it may not be his intention at all. I want to suggest to you there may be all sorts of reasons for him to have behaved that way. He may have wanted to break your arrangement because at the time he was more angry than earlier and he knew he couldn't control his anger, so thought it best to just avoid you. He may have felt he couldn't ring and say don't come - after all it was the second time an arrangement had been made. He may have felt trapped into doing something he didn't want to and didn't know how to get out of it. He may have forgotten until he saw you there and felt really uncomfortable and guilty.

Perhaps it is more helpful for you to reword it by saying: 'I felt so hurt and bruised when he did this. This isn't the first time I have experienced something like this.' 

Can I suggest that it might be more helpful for you to see it that way?

Our first lesson here is to take care of ourselves truenorth. You see, we need to care for ourselves so we can better be there for our 'children'. Looking at our situation with others who understand can show us different ways to view the situation. BPD is a complex thing to understand. We want what is best for our children and our families. So, we begin with ourselves.

There are many places on the site here that could help you in your journey with BPD, have you looked at what there is?

Vivek    

[truenorth]

Hi Vivek ,

Thanks for your wise words and insight.  I am just finding my way around the site and have a lot of reading and learning to do.  I just found out through a Shelter worker that they know my son has relapsed back into drug use and they will be serving him with eviction notice of 30 days unless he agrees to go to rehab for addictions treatment.  I do know that the drug use is just a way for him to manage his own pain - so I get that.   I am hopeful he will acknowledge that he needs help this time and that we can get him into a RTC that can diagnose his MH issues.  I had a feeling he may have returned to his old habits - and now I know... .

Truenorth

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

Hi truenorth, it is so sad for us when we know things are getting harder for our kid. Drug use is so unhelpful and knowing that he is easing his pain doesn't stop our anxiety from surfacing. Learning is one way of handling this for ourselves for sure.

Can I suggest that you explore the workshops and articles that look into boundaries and validation. These two are the best tools in our tool box.

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

Validation - tools and techniques

A book that we parents find helpful is Valerie Porr's: Overcoming BPD

Keep in touch with us and if you have any question, ask away. It is through posting here on the parents board that I found most helpful for myself. You can learn from others and you can test your own thoughts in a safe way.

cheers,

Vivek