Is it defiance or difficulty in managing painful emotions?

[pessim-optimist]

I've been reading about parenting in general (not BPD-specific) and came across the concept that if our child is acting out, it may be out of defiance, or out of difficulty handling their emotions.

And while defiance requires firmness, if they are having a hard time managing their emotions, understanding is the recommended approach instead.

So the appropriate parenting approach cannot be a rigid technique, we need to understand what's happening in order to be effective.

I thought about our children w/BPD - they often have problems dealing with their emotions, and need our understanding. There are times when they are clearly defiant, and then there are times when both may be true at once.

So, I wanted to start a discussion and/or compare notes on:

How can I tell what's going on with my child - what are the signs of defiance and what's the difference of that from having a hard time with their emotions?

What has/hasn't worked in these situations?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Iamafaerie]

I don't know if you will feel this response is related, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Today I watched Dr Phil with an episode where a young girl had accused her long term stepfather of raping her.

At the end of the second day's episode and after her life detector came up as her being deceitful, she was finally given a way she could admit that she had lied. She only responded when she could do so with a one-word response. She had been given multiple opportunities by Dr Phil to tell the truth and could not say lots of words to give the true answer.

She did however, when cornered, keep saying "you hurt me, you hurt me" as though that was the same as saying "you raped me". The stepfather had used verbal abuse and it seemed obvious at the end of the show that she had not been able to convey to anyone how much he had hurt her until she came up with the most extreme thing to say to them to get them to "hear" her pain = the rape accusation.

She also kept saying that her mother had chosen her stepfather over her.

My daughter sees my husband as 'a bad person' and myself. My husband has never done or said anything hurtful or abusive, but if he tried to get her to empathise with my situation she would hang up on him.

I think her brain tells her that whoever is attached to any experience of feeling bad immediately becomes "bad" in her mind.

To be avoided.

Somehow, they never learned that feeling bad is a part of human life. Somehow, they seem to feel they need to go through life without feeling bad. To me, it feels like it could be similar to what people with autism feel. Overstimulation.

I don't know. I am probably not making sense here. I have studied a lot of Temple Grandin's writing and she copes with the world and people.

I just felt that I got more insight into my daughter's reactions. If she feels yukky (she could never identify her exact feelings, ever)... .then whoever she was interacting with when she felt bad is a bad person to be avoided so that she never has to feel that feeling again.

I used to work in a psych ward and some people would slap their own heads when they could not cope with the out of control feelings and thoughts.

I hate this. I almost get to the point where I give up on the whole thing and then ... .bloody hope comes back. Or I spend a morning with teary eyes for no reason at all.

Ha!

Sorry if this is off topic.

[Iamafaerie]

I am wondering if eye contact is a tool a parent can use to gauge the difference between defiance and out of control emotions.

To ask the BPD sufferer 'please look at me". Would they want to make eye contact if they were in pain and not want to if they were being defiant.

Just a thought.

[Iamafaerie]

Pessimist- Optimist

If my first post would be best to put into a whole new topic as it does not really fit with what you wanted to talk about, please tell me how I can have it moved. Or please move it for me.

[jellibeans]

pessim

This is an interesting topic. My dd17 is very defiant and also has a hard time dealing with her emotions. I am not sure I can tell the difference... .it almost seems like they go together at times... .one triggering the other.

I don't really have any magically answers but when dealing with my dd I find if I can remain calm and just listen to her so she feels heard that helps in many situations. I try not to be pulled into an arguement... .try not to defend my position... .validate as much as I can... .If I can distract her with something else or put off giving her a firm answer that also gives her time to calm down. simply saying I will think about that and get back to you has helped me many times.

[js friend]

Defiance from my dd means breaking things, not doing as requsted or in her own sweet time, or just the opposite of what has been asked, physical violence, ignoring others, cussing etc whereas emotionally there have been many times when she breaks down easily and there are many  :'( The tears usually come  because another r/s with a friend or b/f has broken down and she is left feeling "let down" or "betrayed."... .her words not mine, or she beomes frustrated with something or someone.Once she threw her phone across a room because some boy hadnt called her when he had said he would!

ive found it helps to validate her emotions though. Using validation has  been successful in the past to get my dd to talk about what is bothering her.A few months ago she even said that she "felt abandoned" by b/f when she was pregnant. She used the word several times.To me this was amazing, and I had a great big smile across my face for days!. She was talking about her feelings and emotions... .and it was a start... .something that which she very rarely does.Of course she could have been just repeating what someone else had said about the situation, but for me it lifted my heart and gave me hope.Shortly after that she seemed to become closed again

I must admit that I never found out how to manage the defiance though especailly when my dd lived at home.nowadays i can just ignore it as she doesnt live with me anymore,but when she lived here it was hellish.I tried everything.I found that nothing that works for regular teens to improve their behaviour ever worked for my dd .Her emotions are so intertwined and can be changeable in a matter of seconds that it has been really difficult to get through to her and for me to even know who or what i have been dealing with.

[SeaSprite]

I'm trying to think back to when I was a teen... .I was very emotional and rebellious. I don't think I met criteria for BPD because I owned my choices, but I was a real trial for my family, and had some traits that I mostly grew out of. ( I think)

Defiance had to do with not wanting to be like my parents, especially my mom, so I would try to be opposite of her. (She was very shy and proper). When I was emotional, I would do things to try to forget how I was feeling, to feel something different than pain, like an adrenalin rush, etc.

The behaviors probably didn't look any different.

For my daughter, she seems to be similar. There is a defiant streak, where she wants to prove she's not a goody goody. And then there's the self destructive times, when she just doesn't have anything to lose.

As for dealing with them, I don't know. Giving her an inch usually leads to a mile, but too many rules back fire as well.

Being calm usually helps, whichever she is doing.

Sometimes it helps to compliment her while I'm calling her on some BS, "You are better than this, I want good things for you" or "You have good things to offer the world and its my job to help you grow up in one piece".

Sometimes it just all feels like a big test. And so far, I'm lucky if I'm getting a ":)".

[HealingSpirit]

I believe defiance is almost always a way of managing powerful emotions, and I'll tell you why... .

When my DD was a toddler, she was very defiant. Punitive measures and time-outs did not work at all.  Her behavior was getting worse every day.  I was at my wit's end until I discovered a book called, "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy-Kurcinka.  She also wrote "Kids, Parents, and Power Struggles."  Power struggles pretty much described my daily life back then.  Kurcinka discussed the traits of inborn temperament and made a good case that power struggles (which I'd say is another word for defiance) are always fueled by strong emotions. 

After I read those books, I finally understood my DD has very intense, often times out-of-control emotions.  And she's not always in touch with exactly what she is feeling. So, I totally changed the way I was parenting.  I mean 180 degrees.  I started trying to understand what might be driving her behavior and defiance, and talked to that, rather than the defiant behavior.  It worked like a charm... .most of the time. 

A good example is my DD would get very defiant whenever she was hungry.  (She still does.) I could tell when her blood sugar dropped because of her sudden, angry change in mood.  (And she is NOT diabetic.)  When I focused on making her eat something, she would bounce right back and become her normal, sweet, busy self after eating. Even getting her to eat was a challenge sometimes. But AFTER each episode, I would talk to her about her inappropriate behavior and that screaming never gets her what she wants. I endured lots of disagreeable looks from people who didn't understand why I didn't discipline my screaming child.  They just didn't see my discipline because I did it privately, AFTER she had calmed down.  It made a big difference.  Timing is everything with my DD.  This is still the case.

Sometimes, I couldn't figure out what was going on. DD would melt down after birthday parties, or family gatherings, or sometimes just grocery shopping, and nothing would soothe her.  Kurcinka called this a "spillover tantrum" from being overstimulated.  My DD's BPD rages now remind me of those same, unstoppable tantrums when she was younger.

The other thing DD did (and still does) was get sick.  And the illness would be prolonged until she would FINALLY tell me she was upset about something that happened at school.  Someone hurt her feelings, or her teacher inadvertently humiliated her, or some kid bullied her. Sometimes, it took staying home from school throwing up for 3 days before she would finally be able to talk about whatever was bothering her.

Last year, she got her GED and started junior college early.  She came home the first week of school with her right arm paralyzed and curled up in spasm.  3 expert orthopedic shoulder surgeons, 2 MRIs, and 2 neurologists could not figure out what was wrong. One neurologist and one of the shoulder docs said they thought it was psychologically based.  The shoulder/arm problem eventually resolved on its own, so they were right.  I believe she felt overwhelmed by the new experience and responsibility of college, and her way of coping was to render herself helpless (not consciously).  That's different from defiance, but it is a pretty dramatic example of how powerful emotions fuel our kids' behavior.

I still had to assert my parental dominance sometimes, but always at a negative price.  And NOW that DD is 17,  I'm paying for ALL those times when I did assert my parental dominance.  I am the target of nearly all her rages, and during her rages, she brings up my past failings as a parent when I didn't "understand" or "listen."  -sigh-

[jellibeans]

HealingSpirit

Your dd sounds so much like my dd17. She also has had many illnesses and even managed a few rides in an ambulance to make her point. I think it is interesting that you read many of the same books I did. I never felt they helped me very much. My dd has never been easy and I think when she was younger I felt I needed to teacher her and be in control but you are right... .that really got me no where... .I can remember thinking these books only tell me how to change myself... .they do'n tell me how to change her. Took me a while but I think we all come to the realization that we can only change ourselves... .we can only control ourselves... .better late than never.

[mama72]

jellibeans, HealingSpirit and SeaWaler, we must have quadruplets that were separated at birth! We should start our own thread on how our kids are doing at these last stages of HS, just before going out on their own.

We can compare notes of what has helped for the upcoming issue there are in high school.

What do you guys think?

[jellibeans]

Yes mama... .we need to stick together through this last year for school. My dd17 has hit a good patch right now. I barely recognize her. She is thoughful and kind. Helping around the house. Got a new job today and a new boyfriend. He came over last night to meet us. This is the first boy we have ever met!

I have a thread started for back to school... .should we start a new one? Mama you can lead the way if you like. I am rally going to need all the support I can get through this year.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[SeaSprite]

Yes, let's try to get these quads safely into adulthood!

Healingspirit, you named my favorite parenting book, spirited child. I needed it with my oldest, she sounds like your d as a young child right down to the low blood sugar.

So funny thing, its my younger child, the one who was always so easy, who developed BPD. My older d has a whole alphabet of her own, ADHD, OCD, anxiety, depression, dyslexia... .But somehow she has learned to take responsibility for her stuff and articulate her feelings and she's a good kid.

And my younger one, who's only challenge was a seemingly inborn perfectionism, sprouted full blown anxiety/depression/BPD three years ago. I'm betting fueled by her perfectionist tendencies.

Jellybeans, after some recent events it must be so nice to have a breather! Its good to hear good news!

[HealingSpirit]

I love the idea of a high school issues thread.  Even though my DD got her GED her junior year, I'd still love to participate in that post. She started junior college right away, and immediately created similar drama to the drama she left behind in high school. Was is My Fair Lady where he said, "You can take the girl out of the gutter, but you can't take the gutter out of the girl."? (Just substitute drama for gutter.)

To get back to the subject of defiance vs strong feelings, I was curious about those of you who have kids dx with ODD? I'm grateful my DD doesn't have that, but I think we might have been headed there, had I not learned how to deal w her temperament. I don't know much about ODD, but perhaps there is a different mechanism than strong feelings that fuels that disorder.

I am also curious if any of you participated on the "Raising Your Spirited Child message board years ago when our kids were toddlers or very young. I was going out of my mind back then because nobody's little girl acted like mine. It drove me to research back then, just as the lack of resources for BPD drove me to find this site.

[SeaSprite]

I didn't even know there was a spirited child message board. That would have been helpful. 

[pessim-optimist]

Interesting comments everyone!

High-school sounds a bit like toddlers on steroids, doesn't it? 

To get back to the subject of defiance vs strong feelings, I was curious about those of you who have kids dx with ODD? I'm grateful my DD doesn't have that, but I think we might have been headed there, had I not learned how to deal w her temperament. I don't know much about ODD, but perhaps there is a different mechanism than strong feelings that fuels that disorder.

Yes, that would be interesting to hear about, as we do have several parents on the board with kids both (BPD and ODD) diagnosed or emerging... .

One thing that differentiates strong emotions from defiance that I have noticed with my step-daughter, is that when she only has a hard time with her emotions, she will dysregulate, but after she calms down, she is likely to accept whatever was discussed before. When she is defiant, she will keep pushing and picking at a topic/issue, to try to get her way, or if it is brought up again, she will dysregulate again. (My husband and I call this "wrestling the alligators"

Also, if it's only strong emotions, she is likely to respond to validation and SET (if it is before she reaches 5 on a scale of 1-10 towards out-of-control dysregulation)

Has anyone observed this also?