When is it time?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi everyone,

So, I was divorced from my uBPDexw in late 2012.  Under the advice of two counselors and the fact that my soon-to-be-ex had filed a restraining order against me to prevent me from being able to go after custody of our cihldren, I settled with her amicably.  We have joint custody, 50/50 parenting time, and I pay her both child support and spousal support.  Within a few months after the divorce was done she (predictably) asked me about us trying one more time.  I refused unless she was getting professional help.  To make a long story short, we had a whirlwind recycle and suddenly, after moving in with me, she decided after a few months that she didn't even know why she was in therapy.  :)idn't think she needed it.  The same things happened as before... .cheating, lying, dumping responsibilities on me as she basically stayed in bed all day (except for going to her college classes).  I thought I was helping her by not altering child support during that time, since she was going back to school.  Turns out she blew all of the money I was giving her and got herself into thousands of debt.  So suddenly when I finally couldn't handle it any more and pulled the plug, I have a person who won't leave my house (claims she has nowhere to do, and now she's my 'tenant' and I can't just make her leave), and who claims she cannot because she had so much debt.  After four months, I finally got her out of my house.  I had to threaten her with eviction (gave her a 30-day no-cause termination) and I wrote her a promise-letter that during her "transition" out of my house I would give up to $1,000 toward the deposit on a new place (a check written to new landlord, not her) and also would not alter child support and things if I wound up having them more than 50% of the time (which I have).

Overall, things have gone as predicted.  The 50% is more about what is on paper -she could not live down the idea that she is a "bad mom" (something she constantly tries to throw in my face).  I wind up having the kids (two minor children, 8 and 14) more than that, usually, such as when she needs to work a lot.  My ex lives at her sister's house with her sister and her sister's children (who are, though I love them, rude, can be mean, and are severely under-parented).  My kids hate it there.  I realize it is temporary, but as you all can understand, it is nearly impossible to get through to a BPD person.  

But a lot of it is just how their mom is -changing the surroundings won't change it.  My 14 year old resents her mom and her younger sibling because her mom always dumps the parent role on her.  My kids sleep on a couch while their mom "needs to sprawl out" on her queen-sized bed in her own bedroom.  They get terrible sleep, they have no place to do their homework, my ex doesn't do anything to help our 8 year old with her homework.  She does nothing to be involved or contribute.  She dumps responsibilities on my eldest child.  She takes no responsibility for it -my eldest doesn't even try to talk to her mom anymore because she doesn't listen or makes excuses or invalidates her feelings.  My youngest just wants to be with me all the time.  And from what my children tell me, they barely eat over there.  They each have probably one meal a day.  My youngest is skinny as a rail.  She has breakfast and says she almost never eats dinner.  There is no structure over there, and they are left with their cousins while mom and mom's sister are off doing whatever they want (even if they are still on the property, they aren't involved or doing anything).  My eldest cries herself to sleep regularly on the first night back with me (last night) because of how upset she is with her mother and how hurt.  She told me she wishes she had a "different momma."  And it's "all momma's fault."  I have shared some things with her just to show her that it isn't her little sister's fault and it isn't her fault -her mom was like that as long as I knew her and, from what others have told me, even before.

I try to communicate carefully but honestly with their mother -almost more, at this point, to say that I tried and for there to be documentable proof that I've tried.  She at least says, "Ok, I'll try to do better (like when it comes to homework)", but I know nothing will really change.  My kids love their mother but hate it over there.  My eldest is depressed and neither of them want to go to school.  I originally wanted to allow them to come to their own opinion about their mother while I supported them and their feelings, but now I'm wondering if I just need to act on their behalf and not put such a decision on their little shoulders.  I never wanted to be the one who separates them from their mom because I know they love her, even though she is how she is.  But when is enough?

When is it time to go after custody and get majority parenting time?  Even then, their mom will still have access of them, though it will be lessened tremendously.  I'm not sure what to do.  The other thing on my mind is that I know their mother is a liar and will not take this lying down.  If she had no qualms about making things up about me and filing a restraining order (which she later dropped when I played ball with her) in order to prevent me from gaining an upper hand with the kids, then obviously she is going to lie again if she feels like she has to.  This was one of the big reasons my T advised me to not bother fighting her -he said I would probably lose because she would lie, but if I didn't fight I would wind up with the kids most of the time, anyway.  I really don't know what to do.  I have family friends and teachers from years of people observing from the outside how their mother is.  I have stories from my 14 year old of her mom pulling her hair and dragging her down the street (when she was only 9 years old) when she didn't keep track of her younger sister  (who was 2 at the time).  But I know their mom.  She will claim I beat her.  She will pull out the arrest report from 14 years ago when she called the police on me (after I threw a pillow at her and she proceeded to beat on me with a bamboo stick and chase me around the apartment).

Thoughts?

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi everyone,

So, I was divorced from my uBPDexw in late 2012.  Under the advice of two counselors and the fact that my soon-to-be-ex had filed a restraining order against me to prevent me from being able to go after custody of our cihldren, I settled with her amicably.  We have joint custody, 50/50 parenting time, and I pay her both child support and spousal support.  Within a few months after the divorce was done she (predictably) asked me about us trying one more time.  I refused unless she was getting professional help.  To make a long story short, we had a whirlwind recycle and suddenly, after moving in with me, she decided after a few months that she didn't even know why she was in therapy.  :)idn't think she needed it.  The same things happened as before... .cheating, lying, dumping responsibilities on me as she basically stayed in bed all day (except for going to her college classes).  I thought I was helping her by not altering child support during that time, since she was going back to school.  Turns out she blew all of the money I was giving her and got herself into thousands of debt.  So suddenly when I finally couldn't handle it any more and pulled the plug, I have a person who won't leave my house (claims she has nowhere to do, and now she's my 'tenant' and I can't just make her leave), and who claims she cannot because she had so much debt.  After four months, I finally got her out of my house.  I had to threaten her with eviction (gave her a 30-day no-cause termination) and I wrote her a promise-letter that during her "transition" out of my house I would give up to $1,000 toward the deposit on a new place (a check written to new landlord, not her) and also would not alter child support and things if I wound up having them more than 50% of the time (which I have).

Overall, things have gone as predicted.  The 50% is more about what is on paper -she could not live down the idea that she is a "bad mom" (something she constantly tries to throw in my face).  I wind up having the kids (two minor children, 8 and 14) more than that, usually, such as when she needs to work a lot.  My ex lives at her sister's house with her sister and her sister's children (who are, though I love them, rude, can be mean, and are severely under-parented).  My kids hate it there.  I realize it is temporary, but as you all can understand, it is nearly impossible to get through to a BPD person.  

But a lot of it is just how their mom is -changing the surroundings won't change it.  My 14 year old resents her mom and her younger sibling because her mom always dumps the parent role on her.  My kids sleep on a couch while their mom "needs to sprawl out" on her queen-sized bed in her own bedroom.  They get terrible sleep, they have no place to do their homework, my ex doesn't do anything to help our 8 year old with her homework.  She does nothing to be involved or contribute.  She dumps responsibilities on my eldest child.  She takes no responsibility for it -my eldest doesn't even try to talk to her mom anymore because she doesn't listen or makes excuses or invalidates her feelings.  My youngest just wants to be with me all the time.  And from what my children tell me, they barely eat over there.  They each have probably one meal a day.  My youngest is skinny as a rail.  She has breakfast and says she almost never eats dinner.  There is no structure over there, and they are left with their cousins while mom and mom's sister are off doing whatever they want (even if they are still on the property, they aren't involved or doing anything).  My eldest cries herself to sleep regularly on the first night back with me (last night) because of how upset she is with her mother and how hurt.  She told me she wishes she had a "different momma."  And it's "all momma's fault."  I have shared some things with her just to show her that it isn't her little sister's fault and it isn't her fault -her mom was like that as long as I knew her and, from what others have told me, even before.

I try to communicate carefully but honestly with their mother -almost more, at this point, to say that I tried and for there to be documentable proof that I've tried.  She at least says, "Ok, I'll try to do better (like when it comes to homework)", but I know nothing will really change.  My kids love their mother but hate it over there.  My eldest is depressed and neither of them want to go to school.  I originally wanted to allow them to come to their own opinion about their mother while I supported them and their feelings, but now I'm wondering if I just need to act on their behalf and not put such a decision on their little shoulders.  I never wanted to be the one who separates them from their mom because I know they love her, even though she is how she is.  But when is enough?

When is it time to go after custody and get majority parenting time?  Even then, their mom will still have access of them, though it will be lessened tremendously.  I'm not sure what to do.  The other thing on my mind is that I know their mother is a liar and will not take this lying down.  If she had no qualms about making things up about me and filing a restraining order (which she later dropped when I played ball with her) in order to prevent me from gaining an upper hand with the kids, then obviously she is going to lie again if she feels like she has to.  This was one of the big reasons my T advised me to not bother fighting her -he said I would probably lose because she would lie, but if I didn't fight I would wind up with the kids most of the time, anyway.  I really don't know what to do.  I have family friends and teachers from years of people observing from the outside how their mother is.  I have stories from my 14 year old of her mom pulling her hair and dragging her down the street (when she was only 9 years old) when she didn't keep track of her younger sister  (who was 2 at the time).  But I know their mom.  She will claim I beat her.  She will pull out the arrest report from 14 years ago when she called the police on me (after I threw a pillow at her and she proceeded to beat on me with a bamboo stick and chase me around the apartment).

Thoughts?

[Matt]

How old are all the kids?

My view is, yes, it's time, but you need to plan carefully.

First, find the right attorney - someone who has experience with similar cases, and who buys into your objectives.  Make it clear what outcome you are going for - for example, it might be primary custody, and EOW for Mom, or whatever you think would be best.  If the attorney tries to talk you into lowering your expectations - if she spends more energy getting you to accept less than she spends figuring out a good plan to achieve your objectives - she's a loser, move on.

You need a good attorney with a good plan to achieve your objectives.

Also, consider getting some professionals involved.  First, a counselor for the kids, or a GAL (guardian ad litem) who is a psychologist not a lawyer.  Second, a Custody Evaluator - a Ph.D. psychologist who can make recommendations based on all factors including psych evals for both parents.

For the lying and false accusations, the way I dealt with it was depositions.  File a motion to have your ex deposed, and make sure your lawyer is very well prepared with questions which will pin down all your ex's stories.  Then gather evidence to prove they aren't true.  Her credibility will be shot and her lawyer will have to advise her to settle rather than go to trial where she can be proved to have lied under oath.

If you have the right lawyer and the right plan, and if you can afford the Custody Evaluation, with objective psych evals like the MMPI-2 (not just interviews!), then I think your chance of success would be very good.

[ForeverDad]

Pointing to an arrest from 14 years ago shouldn't be seen as anything more than obfuscation and distraction from the current issues.  Besides, at worst it would be seen more like adult behaviors whereas custody deals primarily with parenting behaviors.

Surely if the case was ever pursued in court it had to have been resolved long ago.  Does your state allow you to have it expunged?

I was divorced from my uBPDexw in late 2012... .  Within a few months after the divorce was done she (predictably) asked me about us trying one more time.

Um, then if she throws it up after all these years, why wasn't it resolved during the divorce, and why did she ask to return?

Looking back, you probably wish you had required her to to be making solid progress in therapy before allowing close contact again.

[OutOfEgypt]

They are 8 and 14, with a 20 year old step-child who lives with neither of us.

I'm not sure how many of her lies I can actually prove with hard evidence.  Other people claiming the opposite, yes, but not sure about hard evidence.

What is your situation, now?  How often do you have your children, and does your ex fight against you every chance she gets?

I just sent my ex a message with some of our kids' complaints.  Predictably, she called me and said she had no idea what they were talking about, and proceeded to defend herself.  She said that our eldest was trying to put us against each other and that co-parenting means we both need to be on the same side, and "it sounds like you don't trust me as a parent for them so maybe you need to take me to court if you don't think I can do a good enough job."  After the call, she talked about how she would "fix" things (like by never letting our eldest daughter play with her cousins, so that she has no room to complain about having to "parent" them since she will not be permitted to ever hang out with them).  Lovely.  

[OutOfEgypt]

ForeverDad, good points.  I'm going to contact the state where the arrest was to see if it can be expunged.  I pled no contest at the time and did 1 year of anger management for probation.  Even the facilitator of the anger management program asked me, "Why are you even here?"  I explained, and he said, "ah... .(heard it before, obviously)".  I was let off probation early to move to the state where she was from, in an attempt to help the family and help her be happier.  So I live 3,000 miles away from home and family.  Fun.

Looking back, you probably wish you had required her to to be making solid progress in therapy before allowing close contact again.

Ummm... .yup.  Looking back, I wish I had realized that probably no amount of therapy will help her because she doesn't really want help.

[Matt]

They are 8 and 14, with a 20 year old step-child who lives with neither of us.

I'm not sure how many of her lies I can actually prove with hard evidence.  Other people claiming the opposite, yes, but not sure about hard evidence.

What is your situation, now?  How often do you have your children, and does your ex fight against you every chance she gets?

I just sent my ex a message with some of our kids' complaints.  Predictably, she called me and said she had no idea what they were talking about, and proceeded to defend herself.  She said that our eldest was trying to put us against each other and that co-parenting means we both need to be on the same side, and "it sounds like you don't trust me as a parent for them so maybe you need to take me to court if you don't think I can do a good enough job."  After the call, she talked about how she would "fix" things (like by never letting our eldest daughter play with her cousins, so that she has no room to complain about having to "parent" them since she will not be permitted to ever hang out with them).  Lovely.  

Mine are S16 (8 when we separated), D18 (10 when we separated), plus SD25 and SS35 who don't live with either of us.  Legally, I settled for 50/50 custody of the younger two;  my lawyer said "Over time you'll have de facto primary custody because Mom doesn't really want them with her and won't be able to handle them.", which is exactly what happened - now S16 lives with me virtually 100%, and D18 most of the time.

Proving lies with hard evidence:  :)epositions help this a number of ways, if they are done skilfully by you and your attorney.  You don't have to start by having hard evidence.  First you file a motion to depose the other party.  (She may respond in kind, so you need to be prepared for that.)  When she is deposed, she is sworn in, and your attorney will have a given amount of time - in our case, 4 hours - to ask anything that is relevant to the case.  He can structure his questions carefully, with your help, to get her to tell her stories in as much detail as possible.  If she has accused you of doing X, your lawyer can ask her, "Has Mr.  Egypt ever done X?  When?  Where?  What were the circumstances?" etc. - get her to tell the story in detail, with everything taken down by a court reporter or audio.

Then you pick out the lies that are easiest to prove, and gather that evidence.  Look for contradictions - those can be proved just from the deposition record itself.  (My wife accused me of assault, and when the police arrived, she told one story to one officer, and a different story to the other officer just a few minutes later.  So the police report itself - just the officers' accounts of what she said - proved she was lying.)  Maybe she will say it occurred a time when you were somewhere else, or in a place you have never been, or maybe she will say that something happened which couldn't have happened.  (My wife claimed I "threw her down the stairs", but that isn't possible, because our house's stairs had a landing - she would have only gone halfway down.)

Maybe she'll say something that someone else could say was wrong.  (My wife's claim that I threw her down the stairs conflicted with what my kids both said - ":)ad came down the stairs and then Mom after him."

Maybe she will say something that you can prove is false from public records.  (My wife claimed that my adult stepson and I came home drunk on a certain day, but that couldn't have happened, because he was in jail at the time - easy to prove from public records.  Plus we never came home drunk - it just didn't happen.)

Under the pressure of testifying under oath, and being asked a lot of specific information, it's very likely someone who is lying will be found out - it's just too hard to tell a detailed story that isn't true without slipping up.  After the depositions, I got the transcript, and went through it, and highlighted every "false statement" - you don't have to show it's a deliberate lie, just that it isn't true - more than 40 false statements and accusations.  We easily found evidence to prove about a dozen of them, and if needed we could have probably proved another dozen or so.  Many of them, there was no way to prove, but it doesn't matter - 10 or 20 blatant lies - whoops, "false statements" - in four hours is plenty to prove she isn't credible.

Then we showed our list to the opposing attorney, and my attorney said, "If we go to trial, I will put your client on the stand, and prove she made a number of false statement under oath, when she was deposed.  You will be putting her in criminal jeopardy (risk of criminal charges) if you don't settle."  Her attorney was ethically obligated to advise her client how to avoid criminal charges, so she had to tell her, "You better settle."  We were able to get a settlement that was much better than what my wife would agree to before.

I think this strategy will probably work for you too.  The disadvantage is the cost - maybe 15 or 20 hours of my lawyer's time plus the cost of the court recorder.  And I had to be deposed too - not a big deal but a little stressful.  (Nothing bad came of that and it only took about 2 hours - since I was telling the truth it was pretty dull and pointless.)

Does my ex fight against me every chance she gets?  Well she did at first - ugly stuff - false accusations, jail, career problems, lies told to her family and our neighbors, etc.

But it's been several years now, and it's been a long time since we fought.  That has mostly to do with key issues being settled through the legal process, and with most of my focus being on the kids not her.  I learned not to talk to her - e-mail only, most of the time - not to engage with her emotionally.  No discussion of the past, no discussion of vague issue, only practical matters like schedules.  99% of the time she is not involved in my life.  Just once in a while something needs to be worked out, and I've learned how to make that work, and I think she has learned that she is not going to lure me into any conflict that she might find entertaining... .

[ForeverDad]

My ex was arrested for making death threats, the written law code called it Threat of DV, when the judge finally held the trial he declared her not guilty based on case law where it was limited to "imminent" threats and all she threw in my direction was a telephone handset, not quite a weapon in her hands.  So I walked out feeling she now had the right to threaten me as long as she didn't have a weapon in her hands.  A few years later she had it expunged.  I was never notified, it was just gone the next time I looked.  And to date she's never mentioned it, not once.

[Matt]

My ex was arrested for making death threats, the written law code called it Threat of DV, when the judge finally held the trial he declared her not guilty based on case law where it had to be "imminent" threats and all she threw in my direction was a telephone handset, not quite a weapon in her hands.  So I walked out feeling she now had the right to threaten me as long as she didn't have a weapon in her hands.  A few years later she had it expunged.  I was never notified, it was just gone the next time I looked.  And to date she's never mentioned it, not once.

... .which can teach us that the best time to deal with violence, or the threat of violence, is probably right that moment.  Any delay gives the police and courts an excuse to decide it's not serious.

My wife threw an iron at me - dented the wall - and swung my guitar at my head.  I did nothing about the first instance - a mistake - never reported it.  The second instance was when she accused me of "throwing her down the stairs".  We both spent the night in jail, but other than that she never experienced any consequences.

Not to get off on a tangent, but there is an extreme bias in these situations, usually:  Men are assumed to be the aggressors, even though tons of research shows that women are the aggressors about half the time.  Men are usually arrested and charged, no matter what the situation;  even when the man calls the police he is arrested about 75% of the time, and in my state (and about 20 others), the federal Violence Against Women Act is interpreted to mean that officers are required to arrest the man any time there is an accusation, even if the evidence - as in my case - proves that the accuser is lying.

We probably shouldn't go into the Ray Rice case - the video made public shows that both parties committed acts of violence but no charges were ever filed against the woman involved and the public outcry has been 100% focused on him not her - one of many very public examples where, no matter what the woman does, only the man's behavior is the subject of criminal charges.

Bottom line - it's very unlikely that a woman in a situation like this will ever be charged with a crime or held accountable for her behavior, except that if you handle it very skilfully a family law court may take it into account.

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi Matt,

I see.  This is good to know.  I, too, realize I will de facto have them more than 50% of the time.  Overall that has worked out.  But she still hurts them when she does have them.  I believe that when my ex finally moves into her own place, it will be lessened because there will be less responsibility to dump on my eldest daughter.  But that doesn't mean it is okay.  I write everything down that happens, everything my daughter says, everything my ex says.  I know she doesn't really want to be a mom, but she won't let them go because -well you understand how it goes.  She even calls our youngest D her "mini-me".  She told me the other day, "everything I love about her is everything I love about myself."  It's like... .huh?  She dresses her up in clothes the poor kid doesn't even like, just so she'll be "cute".  Anyway, I know my ex won't really hear me and that it will probably make matters worse for them to draw attention to my ex's behavior by confronting her, but I'm not sure what else to do.  I feel like I at least need to prove that I tried to make it work and tried to keep communication lines open.  But she twists everything and basically tells me that my kids are lying and that they say bad things about me, too, but she takes the "adult" road and doesn't bother me with every single little thing they say.  Zero responsibility taken.  Zero.

[Matt]

She told me the other day, "everything I love about her is everything I love about myself."

Let me just seize on this comment because it jumps out at me... .

Back in the bad old days, my ex might have said something like this to me - not this exactly, but she might have told me what was going on in her mind, or how she was feeling, or whatever.  And then she might have turned on me, accused me of something, created chaos, etc.

She doesn't do that anymore, and it's not because she is any healthier.  (She was diagnosed with multiple psych disorders, and ordered by the court to get psychotherapy, but she never did.  She's the same she always was, or maybe a little worse.)  The reason she wouldn't tell me any of that stuff now is that we don't talk, except very briefly, about very practical stuff.  99.9% by e-mail, usually a few sentences at most.

The fact that your ex is telling you this stuff suggests that you are still in an intimate relationship with her.  I don't mean "sexual" or even "friendly", but there must be times when you are talking about stuff other than schedules, who pays for what, etc.

This is risky!

About dealing with what the kids tell you... .

It's probably not best to talk to your ex about what the kids tell you.  She will make them pay for talking to you, and they may clam up, and then things will get worse.

Instead, treat what they tell you as confidential, unless there is a very imminent danger, like if she threatens them somehow - then take legal action and don't let them stay with her any more.

But there are some other strategies you can use.  First, when the kids tell you stuff, listen carefully - encourage them to elaborate - not to gather information to use against their mom, but to help them process what is happening, identify their choices, and choose wisely.  "So it sounds like your Mom does X.  How do you handle that?  Can you think of some other ways of handling it?  What about if you did Y - do you think that would work better?" etc.

Also, consider finding a counselor for them.  And I emphasize for them - not someone to gather information for you, or to testify against their mom, but to help them process what is happening and learn ways to cope with their mom's behavior.  It's a marathon not a sprint - the counselor won't ever fix their mom, and there may not be any good results soon, but over the years she will be a resource they can use, and someone they can talk with in confidence.

I did that and it helped.  The counselor told me some things but not much.  I never used her in the legal battle.  She gave my kids (mostly my D18 who was then about 10) a healthy adult they could talk to without it getting back to either parent.

[OutOfEgypt]

The fact that your ex is telling you this stuff suggests that you are still in an intimate relationship with her.  I don't mean "sexual" or even "friendly", but there must be times when you are talking about stuff other than schedules, who pays for what, etc.

This is risky!

You bet it is.  It is one-way for the most part, though.  She tells me many things (text message) that I never reply to.  If I am too emotionally "close" to her it is through hating her, but I keep it to myself.  I tell her nothing of my personal life or feelings.  Yet I still try to "co-parent" with her in a friendly way so that she believes everything is "cool".  It results in less drama for the kids and less of my daughter having to hear her mother complain about me.  When she senses that I am competition or angry with her, it makes things so much worse.  When I smile and nod and pick up the kids and ignore her personal messages, things are more peaceful.  I might laugh at a joke or share a football score.  When things are "light", there is less of a target on me or my kids.  I hate it, though

[OutOfEgypt]

It's probably not best to talk to your ex about what the kids tell you.  She will make them pay for talking to you, and they may clam up, and then things will get worse.

Yes, I have noticed this.  I just talked to my daughter about it and said that maybe me telling her mommy isn't the best idea.  I did because she was reaching out to me for help and I wanted to stand up to her, but now it just paints a target on her back when it is her turn to go back there.  I told her that unless it is something serious I will just listen, validate her feelings, and help coach her.  And I'll keep it all private, although she is quite open about telling my girlfriend all of this, too.

[Matt]

It's probably not best to talk to your ex about what the kids tell you.  She will make them pay for talking to you, and they may clam up, and then things will get worse.

Yes, I have noticed this.  I just talked to my daughter about it and said that maybe me telling her mommy isn't the best idea.  I did because she was reaching out to me for help and I wanted to stand up to her, but now it just paints a target on her back when it is her turn to go back there.  I told her that unless it is something serious I will just listen, validate her feelings, and help coach her.  And I'll keep it all private, although she is quite open about telling my girlfriend all of this, too.

Quite a few of us have been through (or are going through) this.  Most of us start out by standing up for the kids.  Unfortunately it just doesn't work.  The strategy that seems to work - for me at least - is giving the kids the tools to cope, and supporting them as they learn to make their own decisions.

Small things too... .When my kids were young, my son was fairly shy.  If we went out to eat, and he wanted ketchup, he expected me to go get it, but I said, "If you want ketchup, no problem - just go up to the counter and ask for it."  At first he just ate without the ketchup, but after a few times he worked up his courage and went to the counter and asked for it, and got it.  He developed a good ability to speak up and talk to strangers, and ask for what he wants, and that has served him well in dealing with his mom - he can now tell her "I don't want to do that." and make it stick.

[OutOfEgypt]

That is awesome.  That actually confirms the philosophy I had/have -validate their feelings, give them the tools to cope.  Yup.  Sometimes hard when you see them hurting, though -and you KNOW their mom isn't going to actually listen and take responsibility.  I still tell my daughter to speak up because speaking up is for HER benefit and for what is right, not for her mom's.  Her mom won't hear it.

Thanks for this.  Very confirming that I'm on the right track.