Visitation / Eviction / Do we send SS to his uBPDm?

[PinkieV]

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted much since early summer, when my DH's uBPDew signed an agreement giving him custody of SS14.  We live two states away, and things have been quiet on our end, as well as any interaction on her part with DH or SS14.  I think DH has e-mailed her twice, once regarding her contact info for school, and once regarding Thanksgiving holiday travel plans, and she answered without too much time or too many reminders - especially after I helped him craft the second e-mail where a non-response would be her answer.  SS14 texts with her, and they talk maybe once or twice a month.

DH and I monitor SS14's FB account, because he is friends with her.  Here's where all the BPD comes into play.  My DH was awarded emergency custody a little over a year ago when BM plead guilty to embezzling from her former employer and was sentenced to a year in jail.  She stole because she couldn't make enough on her own, plus child support from my DH and another baby daddy, to fund her lifestyle.  She's had one judgment against her after another, and now will be losing her home, most likely by the end of the month.  We think she lost her job again too.  Her family is done with her, she has a few "friends" that like her comments or post a something supportive, but she's really getting to the end of her rope.

She has not been hysterical - yet.  We see glimpses of it in her posts, but we can't imagine this move will be all sunshine and lollipops.  We don't know HOW she'll even manage to rent a place with her record, etc.  SS14 is due to fly up for a week at Thanksgiving and we're really scared to send him.  Is she holding it together just long enough?  Where will they even stay?  She made many suicidal statements when she first went to jail, and we're afraid she is just waiting to get him back long enough to do something.

So, we contacted our attorney, and basically we have to have a butt-load of proof, plus a $2,000 retainer, to file an emergency order so she will not have visitation.  And we would have to fly there as well.  We're just playing this waiting game, kind of sort of hoping that she gets evicted sooner rather than later, so if she loses it, we have proof and can file.  Her roommate just moved out last week and he has told us so much more about what's been going on, but we're not sure he'd actually testify.

I've read quite a few posts where people here have said that whenever they made a decision that was in the best interests of the children, there were very few, if any repercussions from the court.  While we don't want to stand in the way of visitation, we also don't want to just throw SS14 to the wolves.  He's immature for his age, getting better but still not there, and BM scares him to death.  We're going to e-mail his counselor this week to let her know the situation, so we can talk about it in our family session on Saturday.  When he first went to visit BM last summer, he wouldn't listen at all when we gave him advice about who to call or where to go should he need any help.  I don't know whether he didn't think he'd need it, or if he's so scared of her he simply won't try to get away should something happen.  We've decided to approach it as helping his younger half sister, who is ten and lives with BM.  We think he'd be more open to suggestions then, at least.

Has anyone had this situation, or do you have any suggestions or advice?  We'd sure appreciate it!

[Matt]

Just brainstorming with you - thinking about how you might deal with it... .

What if you (or your husband) would write an e-mail, just asking how things are going for her, and see how she responds:

Thanksgiving is coming up and we were wondering what we should expect for S14.

Is your address still [address]?

If he comes on Wednesday the 26th, would you be able to pick him up at the airport?

And then return him to the airport by noon on Friday the 28th?

Please let us know what you are planning and if this trip will work out.

Her response might give you some opportunity;  for example, if she has moved, you could ask more about that place and who she's living with, and if it's with someone you don't know, that might be a reason for caution.

Of if she says she can't pick him up at the airport, that might indicate she doesn't have a car, and that could be a reason that the trip won't work out as planned.

Or... .something else in her response might give you a reason for concern - a specific reason in her e-mail, not your more general concerns.

If you have something specific, I think it would be reasonable to say, "Given that you are living in a different place, and with people we don't know, I think it would be best to put this trip off for now."  Not refusing to let him visit her, just expressing a concern and delaying til later.

Technically this might violate the court order, and your lawyer might tell you not to do that, but I would be very surprised if any court would punish you for doing what you think is best, especially when you have a stable place where he is safe, and you have good reason to believe that the situation with his mom isn't good.

[ForeverDad]

Is she supposed to get him during part of Winter Break too?  If so, then if you decide to take the cautious road this month you can always offer a little extra time next month instead.

Note:  Many pwBPD don't do well with choices, even logical ones, facing choices can trigger massive overreactions.  So I wouldn't bring that up as an option unless or until it seems appropriate.  And even then you might decide to present it as the solution rather than an option and perhaps avoid her spinning out of bounds.

[PinkieV]

Thanks Matt and FD, I always appreciate your posts!

We've had an update: SS14 told us she is going to rent a house from a friend.  Her absolute do-or-die move date is in December - before SS14 would fly back up for Christmas.  So I think I will help DH write an e-mail after Thanksgiving that 1) confirms flight days and times, and 2) requests an update on her address as SS14 has told him she is moving.

Crafting these e-mails is the key, isn't it?  She's going to be pissed at us anyways, because SS18 has been away, and he left on a bad note - threatening her with an RO if she didn't leave him alone.  We're paying for him to fly home to us for the holidays.  No doubt she'll hear this from SS14, but there's nothing we can do about that.  Hopefully she'll just respond, or not, depending on what DH asks, and when.  The good thing is that we can sort of calibrate her mood by watching her FB posts, and pick a time when she's feeling better.  3.5 more years of these games. 

[livednlearned]

What if you were to write a note like the one Matt suggested, and feel her out. Ask her about the house, who she is renting from, how many rooms, is there a place for SS14 with furniture, a bed, etc. Put the onus on her to show that she has met the minimum basic requirements.

And then let her know that given that things seem up in the air, you would feel more comfortable if she came to see SS14 instead. Offer to pay her airfare and a hotel where she can stay. It's probably cheaper to do that then fly SS14 up there, and then the two of you plus hotel costs in the event there is some kind of crisis up there.

It's a big deal when a parent loses custody. You mentioned a lot of very reasonable things that show common sense concern about whether SS14 will be okay staying with her. It is different in each state, and each judge and lawyer makes a difference, but my experience (with a good judge and a good lawyer) is that if your ex loses custody and you make reasonable decisions that are in the best interests of the child, court will take minimal if any action against you.

The key is to have a well-documented exchange between you and BM that demonstrates good faith arrangements for SS14 to see his mom.

[Matt]

The good thing is that we can sort of calibrate her mood by watching her FB posts, and pick a time when she's feeling better.

I wouldn't do that;  in fact, I might even do the opposite.

First, it's very co-dependent thinking to always be trying to do things the way the person with the disorder will want - check her mood all the time.  I've been there, for many years.  A healthier approach is to decide what you think is right to do, and then do it, and let her react however she will.

Also, in my mind, the purpose of writing an e-mail to her is not to catch her at her best, but to document her as she is.  That is, her response is likely to contain something that will give you a good, specific reason to say, as LnL suggests, "We're not comfortable with S14 visiting you right now, but if you want to come here, maybe that can work out."  (I might not go so far as to offer pay her travel costs, but that's your call, and if you did, it would show that you are not trying to block contact between S14 and his mom - might make you look good in the court's eyes.)

[livednlearned]

(I might not go so far as to offer pay her travel costs, but that's your call, and if you did, it would show that you are not trying to block contact between S14 and his mom - might make you look good in the court's eyes.)

It's also highly unlikely that she will take you up on the offer, if she's anything like my ex. It's almost like he wanted me to give him a reason to not see S13.

[Matt]

(I might not go so far as to offer pay her travel costs, but that's your call, and if you did, it would show that you are not trying to block contact between S14 and his mom - might make you look good in the court's eyes.)

It's also highly unlikely that she will take you up on the offer, if she's anything like my ex. It's almost like he wanted me to give him a reason to not see S13.

This has been my experience too - somewhat different circumstances.

I think a common experience here is that the parent with BPD does want to be in the kids' lives, and wants to see them from time to time, and wants to be perceived as an involved parent.

But my ex does not handle stress well, and though my kids are great, and pretty easy to deal with, she clearly finds it stressful to be responsible for them a lot.  So she finds any excuse - or sometimes no excuse at all - to not have them.  But then, out of the blue, she invites one or both of them to a movie, or shopping, or whatever.

My strategy is to usually say OK, unless I have literally already started dinner or have some plans that can't be changed, and let her take them when she is able to make it a good experience for them.  They know that's not how she always is - they have lots of experience of what she's like when she is stressed.

But we live in the same town.  In your case it takes a lot of commitment for her to have S14 - either she has to travel or she has to get her act together so she has a good place for him.  And if you don't lower the bar too low, she may never rise to that challenge... .

[PinkieV]

Thanks for the suggestions and thoughts.  To give you a little history, DH agreed to pay for SS14's regularly scheduled travel through May of next year.  That's four trips, the first being this last summer when we all went anyway for SS18's graduation.  We knew that she knew that she wouldn't get him back, and that she was just looking to "win" something.  She's been in dire financial straits for years, and her lawyer threw out "maybe if you pay for travel" at our last continued hearing before we were scheduled for trial.  We told our lawyer we'd be fine with that, if it meant she'd sign.

We also agreed to the bare minimum child support - $50 per month for the first year.  Then she up and quit her job and found a new one, which we're not supposed to know about.  SS14 almost choked when he almost accidentally spilled the beans.  When it came time to give her contact info to the school, she insisted she could always be reached on her cell, and that no one needed any other information from her.

So, asking her, even nicely, to give us new information will probably not work.  We've already purchased SS14's ticket for Thanksgiving travel, and right now it sounds like she will still have her home and be relatively stable.  If she spirals down before then, we'll rethink that trip.  In the mean time, we'll craft the e-mail to plan the Christmas trip, and send it right after SS14 returns home.

Lnl, BM actually told SS14 she should just move down here to be closer to him, so we're not going to pay for her to come visit and end up staying!    And I feel the same way you do, she'd much rather be the wronged, perfect, loving mother than actually be a parent, at least to the boys.  When she was served with the emergency custody hearing paperwork last year, she told my DH that he could have the boys, if he still paid her.  So they were a meal ticket and not much more.

Matt, thanks for the comment about FB and her mood.  You're 100% correct.  Let the chips fall where they may when DH e-mails, we can't base our whole lives on her moods.  And her answers could be very helpful to our case.

---------------

Oh boy, we just swung 180 degrees in five seconds flat.  I was just finishing this response when I found out the police have been  contacted to remove her immediately because she's trying to sell her appliances before she moves out, which would result in theft charges.  So we're in waiting mode to see if something happens in the next day or so.  It's like a roller coaster ride, and I'm so thankful we don't live any closer to her!  Sometimes I wish we had a break on custody and she had more frequent visitation, but I'll take 100% of the time if we don't have to live with her drama!  Stay tuned . . .

[Matt]

How did you find that out?

[Waddams]

Oh boy, we just swung 180 degrees in five seconds flat.  I was just finishing this response when I found out the police have been  contacted to remove her immediately because she's trying to sell her appliances before she moves out, which would result in theft charges.  So we're in waiting mode to see if something happens in the next day or so.  It's like a roller coaster ride, and I'm so thankful we don't live any closer to her!  Sometimes I wish we had a break on custody and she had more frequent visitation, but I'll take 100% of the time if we don't have to live with her drama!  Stay tuned . . .

I feel like I need popcorn.

You definitely have justification to not send him now.  If she's homeless and there's criminal charges being levied, etc., SS14 definitely doesn't need to be around that.  I'd just not send him and let her file contempt if she wants, then let her tell the judge all about it.

[livednlearned]

Oh boy, we just swung 180 degrees in five seconds flat.  I was just finishing this response when I found out the police have been  contacted to remove her immediately because she's trying to sell her appliances before she moves out, which would result in theft charges.  So we're in waiting mode to see if something happens in the next day or so.  It's like a roller coaster ride, and I'm so thankful we don't live any closer to her!  Sometimes I wish we had a break on custody and she had more frequent visitation, but I'll take 100% of the time if we don't have to live with her drama!  Stay tuned . . .

Do you feel ok about preventing visitation if she is evicted? Even if no charges are pressed? I learned to never be surprised by court stuff, so it's hard to predict how something like this could play out in front of a judge, but can you imagine that a judge would fault you for denying visitation under circumstances like this? And based on her past history... .

[Matt]

Oh boy, we just swung 180 degrees in five seconds flat.  I was just finishing this response when I found out the police have been  contacted to remove her immediately because she's trying to sell her appliances before she moves out, which would result in theft charges.  So we're in waiting mode to see if something happens in the next day or so.  It's like a roller coaster ride, and I'm so thankful we don't live any closer to her!  Sometimes I wish we had a break on custody and she had more frequent visitation, but I'll take 100% of the time if we don't have to live with her drama!  Stay tuned . . .

I feel like I need popcorn.

You definitely have justification to not send him now.  If she's homeless and there's criminal charges being levied, etc., SS14 definitely doesn't need to be around that.  I'd just not send him and let her file contempt if she wants, then let her tell the judge all about it.

Yeah, this is where I'm at too.  (If we're voting... .)

If you can document what you told us - that she was arrested or charged, or if there is some other reliable information saying that she is in trouble with the law, then I would just make the decision not to send him, and write her a brief note telling her that - "We are not comfortable with S14 visiting you right now.  Please contact us when your situation is more stable and we'll work it out." or something kind of vague like that.

As Waddams says, worst case she takes you to court, and you tell the judge what you know - facts not rumors - and that you made the decision you believed was safest for S14 - and let the chips fall where they may.  It's possible the judge will scold you, and remind you that you have to follow the court order, but then you just say, "Yes, Your Honor." and go on with life.

[ForeverDad]

Yes, don't do an exchange with things up in the air in that way.  Moving, possibly okay.  Moving, doing something illegal and police may get involved, not okay.  Pass the popcorn.  An old saying comes to mind... .

It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.

[Matt]

Yes, don't do an exchange with things up in the air in that way.  Moving, possibly okay.  Moving, doing something illegal and police may get involved, not okay.  Pass the popcorn.  An old saying comes to mind... .

It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.

... .and if you set aside your judgment, and follow the letter of the law, and if some harm comes to S14, you'll regret it much more than a slap on the wrist from the judge.

[PinkieV]

Her neighbor / friend started out as her Power of Attorney when she went to jail last year. Typically, BM became abusive and horrible as the months went on.  The friend accompanied her to a hearing while she was still in jail, and for the first time, this friend saw how much BM had lied, and how nice, and . . . normal DH and I were.  Things were really heating up as BM was playing fast and loose with the rules at the halfway house, and we and her family were trying to figure out what was going on, and how to protect the boys.

One day, I reached out to the friend on FB, and just thanked her for trying to do the right thing.  She had been talking to my DH and passing along what info she could.  I just wanted to let her know how much we appreciated her, and I swear it was like a dam breaking.  She messaged me back and told me that BM had not thanked her once, and here I was, the object of all this hatred, thanking her for helping with the boys.

She has no kids of her own, and honestly loves the boys, as she's known them for over five years.  After we messaged back and forth, we became friends, and I told her what I had found out here to help her deal with her now ex-friend who was threatening to sue her for stealing her money, and even her food stamps.  She has lived across the street from BM since then, and is now on the board of the HOA, which is involved in the eviction.  She lets us know when something is up, and that's what happened today.

[PinkieV]

One thing that may impact, but I'm not sure how.  Early next month, we'll be able to move the case to our state, as it will have been six months.  So possibly we could refuse to send him, and by the time a hearing came around, if at all, the judge would see the case had been moved?

[Matt]

So possibly we could refuse to send him, and by the time a hearing came around, if at all, the judge would see the case had been moved?

That sounds like a good strategy.

Do you have an attorney who can help with that?

(Remember nobody here can give you legal advice.  We can only say how things went in our cases and other cases we've read about.)

[PinkieV]

Yes, we've been in contact with our attorney, who advised us not to withhold SS14 without going to court, which I'd expect an attorney to say. He has been a great advocate for us and I trust him, but in the end SS14's health and welfare is up to DH.

DH has decided that if she moves - and now it's looking like tomorrow - and doesn't get arrested, he will request her new info immediately. If she doesn't respond in 24 hours he will send another stating he won't send SS14 if she does not reply in another 24 hours. We have friends and family in the area that can check it out for us.

DH is also going to call the attorney we consulted with previously here and get the ball rolling on moving the case to us. That way we have representation here if we decide not to send him. I doubt BM has the funds or necessary support to file before the case is moved.

[livednlearned]

Yes, we've been in contact with our attorney, who advised us not to withhold SS14 without going to court, which I'd expect an attorney to say.

My attorney didn't say this -- she told me that if I withheld visitation because I was concerned about N/BPDx's stability, that she would take care of the next steps. I wonder if your attorney is not as comfortable in trial situations? Or, it could be that your attorney knows the judge is impartial to moms, no matter what the conditions are.

[Waddams]

I guess another angle is that if the SS14 goes, and gets caught up in his mom's troubles, is that reason to file for supervised visits or sole legal custody?  The lawyer isn't advocating something like I hope?

[PinkieV]

Lnl, our attorney definitely had to play catch up when he started seeing exactly what we were dealing with.  I gave him a lot of info on BPD, and helped write the custody agreement, etc.  He's a former Navy attorney and pretty tough - at one point he told us "hey, you want me to go after the b*%#h, I'll go after her"!  I think there was a lot of commiseration between him and BM's attorney too.  She skipped three appointments with her attorney to sign the agreement the week before trial, and he ended up threatening her and telling her he'd be at the courthouse at 8:00 a.m. to remove himself as her attorney, and she could explain that to the judge at trial an hour later.  She signed on Saturday and court was on Monday morning.

He e-mailed his answer to us, so I think he was playing it safe.  Many times, when we've spoken to him on the phone, he'll give us an alternate opinion as to what he'd do personally.  Waddams, I think it's more of a concern that she could haul us in and have custody changed after all our hard work and money spent.  I know he doesn't want SS14 to be caught in the middle of this any more than we do.  He's never stated that the state seems to value mothers over fathers to any degree, and quite frankly our judge was so tired of BM's delays and shenanigans, he'd probably chastise her for coming back again when SHE was the one creating the problem.  But of course, none of us ever know these things, or want to take that chance. 

[PinkieV]

Soo .  .  . she moved today, and took everything that wasn't nailed down, and a few things that were. Cabinets, flooring. She was gone by the time the sheriff arrived, so the new owners have a case file # to file theft charges. DH emailed his attorney to see if this is enough to file an ex parte emergency order to withhold visitation.

[david]

My ex emptied our house too. She took everything that was not nailed down. She removed every electrical wall cover (I had to replace them and there were 47 in total), the three toilet paper holders from each bathroom, etc. I was able to figure out where she put everything (a storage unit) and when she found a new place I was able to get pictures of a majority of it through the internet. It helped in our equitable distribution. I never mentioned any of the evidence I had until we actually were sitting in the conference room. My atty showed her atty a few of the pictures. I had more than 40 pictures and her atty saw the pile. Everything was settled quickly after that. 

She left a journal that she wrote about two years prior to us meeting until about six months after that. Considering she emptied the house and left this journal on top of an empty box suggests to me she wanted me to have it. She had all criteria for BPD except suicidal ideation in it from the DSM IV manual.

[Nope]

Is she supposed to give you a new address immediately? Stuff like that is in the court order. I can't imagine under the circumstances that you should be expected to send a kid to her without knowing where he'll even sleep.

We are about to deal with a huge blow up ourselves because the GAL was kept on after my DH was awarded custody in order to monitor BPD mom's parenting time while the kids are with her in her state. Because ours are younger we will be sending an email asking her directly for information about who will be watching them over Christmas break while she is at work. We are expecting that to trigger her in a big way. Seems like even without the added stress the holidays are a time for heightened drama.

[PinkieV]

Nope, DH e-mailed and asked for the new address and any non-family member info.  She replied within 30 minutes - very suspicious.  Turns out, she gave us the wrong address - whether it was a "mistake" or not.  We were able to figure out the correct address from previous FB posts she had made, and it's in a bad neighborhood.  She told SS14 she's renting the house from a friend, but she gave us his info, so that means he's living there as well.

I think she gave us the incorrect address so that it won't be passed on and they'll have a harder time finding her to serve her with papers should they pursue the theft charges.  DH didn't answer the e-mail, so she just assumes we didn't check any farther.  We're waiting to see if the charges are filed, and what the attorney says.  Of course this all happens at the 11th hour!

David, we're so lucky to not have any interest in the condo, although we've laughed about purchasing it out from under her.  That would start WWIII and we're pretty lucky most of the time not to have to deal with her.  I just love the sense of entitlement BPDs have.  Sort of "what's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine", right?

[PinkieV]

Well he's off to visit, no charges filed yet. She's ramped up the tagging him in FB posts, including a derogatory post about "middle class moms" vs "rich dads". We'll just ignore until SS is home, then send an email requesting she stick to the parenting order and not disparage the other parent. I hope SS is as ready as he can be - he was excited but pensive. He's going to try not to tell her his brother is flying home here at Christmas. SS18 has no contact with her and I wouldn't want to be there when she hears about that. We'll let it slip once SS14 is home next week. Thanks everyone, I appreciate your help.