Anyone been to court for custody or child support?

[clydegriffith]

I have a 3 year old child with BPDx. Currently, i send her 25% of my income and i pay for the kid's health insurance. She found some online calculator and thinks she can squeeze an extra 100-200 out of me if she takes me to court. Does anyone have experience with family court for these kind of matters?  Would it look petty on her part for doing this? My daughter is far from starving and gets all the toys, clothes, etc she needs.

Also, does character and circumstances ever play a factor in these things? The BPDx has had 5 kids by 3 guys in 6 years and is currently living with the latest alleged baby daddy. She lost custody of the two older kids and does not pay support for them to the father.

I'm tired of constantly being threatened with court. A part of me would like to do this through the legal system but i am afraid of getting royally screwed as i've read a lot of horror stories. 

[whirlpoollife]

In the next month , follow my thread . My x2bh is taking me back for modification in support  so he doesn't have to pay c/s, and for me to pay him alimony.  I have a one time income on my tax return and he is going after that.  Originally I got imputed income which brought his support to me lowered.

He has to pay for the hearing coming up since he wants it. ( I have to pay my L though)

Does your state or county have a seperate support dept that you can call and talk to someone with out going through a L?

Possibly , with yours and hers income , and custody overnights, they can give you an answer. 

[Waddams]

I think just about all of us have been to court for custody and child support in one way or another.  There's a lot of variability of how it works between jurisdictions, and even between different judges in the same jurisdictions.  You'll really need to consult a lawyer to answer your questions.  

Be wary though, it sounds like she's likely got a better understanding of the court system than you simply because she's been through it already.  You'll need to be careful in picking a lawyer.  They need to be a regular in the family courts in your jurisdiction, respected by the judges.  Also, they need to be familiar with high conflict situations and they need to have the backbone to stand up for you in the face of the crazy you will face.

[clydegriffith]

Thanks for the response and will be following your thread.

My situations is bit complicated as after our relationship went to hell because of her BPD behavior, she had to move back to her hometown which is in another state and 7 hours away from where we were living.  This may not be a bad thing as far as the support goes as the state she and the kids are in now's laws appear to be a little more fair than the state i live in. Also, given the distance and that i have to take a couple of days off from work to get them overnight, i've only been able to do that about 8-10 times a year. This has been going on for two years now.

I never thought of looking into wether or not the state has a support department with someone you can talk to so i will look into that.

[Nope]

It's a good point that she moved and you didn't. If this goes to court you can bring up with the judge that you should get a deviation in how much you pay based on the added cost of travel for parenting time.

In the state that I deal with there are certain things that can trigger a support modification if you already have a support order, but in cases where there is no order you have to go to court to get one. As has been pointed out, she's been through this process enough to know more than you about how it works. But paying filing fees and a lawyer is a pretty good deterrent sometimes. My DH's BPDex loves to threaten court for every single perceived slight or infraction but she has absolutely no money and no willing lawyer to make good on such threats.

[clydegriffith]

It's a good point that she moved and you didn't. If this goes to court you can bring up with the judge that you should get a deviation in how much you pay based on the added cost of travel for parenting time.

In the state that I deal with there are certain things that can trigger a support modification if you already have a support order, but in cases where there is no order you have to go to court to get one. As has been pointed out, she's been through this process enough to know more than you about how it works. But paying filing fees and a lawyer is a pretty good deterrent sometimes. My DH's BPDex loves to threaten court for every single perceived slight or infraction but she has absolutely no money and no willing lawyer to make good on such threats.

Thanks for the info. Like your DH's BPDex, i too am threatened with court whenever she gets mad and i'm growing tired of it.  She likes to make it seem like she can go to court and the court will give her whatever she wants and she can be taking half my salary if she wanted to and blah blah blah blah. Now given that i've never been through the process i don't know how much truth to that there is but i've read plenty of horror stories about guys being screwed over when it comes to this so i am defintley concerned.

[ForeverDad]

Likely she is including lots of her expenses and few if any of your expenses.  For example, she may be figuring in her housing and other expenses and not including 'income' from the other fathers. If you're paying 25% of income, that may be high, though I don't know how the percentages are done.  While I never admit my income, I can say it's not low and even though my ex was 'imputed' minimum wage because she never provided her income, my CS was set on the low side of the $600-$750 per month range.

Do you have an order specifying how much you pay?  The reason I ask is because (1) you might unknowingly be paying too much and (2) if you don't have an order and she files then from that point forward anything you send her outside of a court order could be deemed a"GIFT" and not child support.  Be aware, beware.  In my case, we separated when my son was 3 years old, she filed for CS a day before I filed for D.  So my divorce case trumped her filing for $$$.  The magistrate did what my county often does, defaulted to the mother and ordered me to pay child support and applied it retroactively to when I filed for divorce.  By then two months had passed and so I walked out owing money I didn't even have and the next week when the month ended the CSEA sent me a notice I was In Default and would be reported to credit agencies if not paid promptly.

Also, my county has different schedules for children under 3 years old, giving more control to the primary parent.  Now that she's no longer a baby or toddler, you can seek more time with your daughter.  Maybe the court will grant you extended visits around some of the major holidays, 1 or 2 week vacations, etc.  Of course, she will cry foul, claim you can't do that, she she makes the rules, etc, but if you present yourself to court as a normal parent then you can start getting more meaningful time with your daughter.  You have to start somewhere, don't let it just be about support, let the court know you want parenting too.  If mother has already lost custody of some of her other children, then depending on those particulars you may have basis to seek majority parenting and more say in decision-making, if not now then later.

What I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with asking for your child during a couple of the long school holidays.  (Thanksgiving, winter break and spring break are some long periods when school is out.)  Be brave, ask for your child for two or three months over the summers, for example, from Father's Day weekend in mid-June through mid-August at a minimum.  Your daughter will be in school soon and that won't negatively impact her school schedule.  Ex will scream like you're an ax murderer but court may very well see it as a reasonable request seeing that (1) she is the one who moved away and (2) she left you stuck with minimal and infrequent visits (3) while forced to pay through the nose.

Oh my, what did I just write?   You asked about child support and I branched out into ways to get more parenting time and perhaps eventually custody!

Thanks for the info. Like your DH's BPDex, i too am threatened with court whenever she gets mad and i'm growing tired of it.  She likes to make it seem like she can go to court and the court will give her whatever she wants and she can be taking half my salary if she wanted to and blah blah blah blah.

As with many members here, I too was relentlessly threatened with the ex's entitlement perceptions.  Yes, she did get her way at the start.  But by the time the case ended I walked out with equal time.  Three more years and I got custody.  If I had kept listening to her I would never have been able to stand up for my son.  In a manner of speaking, tune her out, learn what the criteria are that catch the court's attention and focus on those aspects.

[livednlearned]

I would pay $100 or so to ask a lawyer some basic questions so you get a bigger picture and potentially see a strategy. You can pay for a legal consultation without having to retain the lawyer, maybe even two so you can see how they respond and strategize. Doesn't mean you have to go to court, although that certainly is an option.

Usually, the child support calculators are online and they're pretty straightforward. Often, they are the least ambiguous part of the whole custody situation. Paying her a quarter of your income seems high, but I guess it depends on the difference in your incomes.

If she is living with someone who pays living + household expenses, it's possible that you would be expected to pay less.

Are you interested in getting more time with your kids?

[ogopogodude]

Keep in mind that BPD's like to get a response... .ANY type of response, be it good or bad, as long as there is a reaction by the other person.

 So, the occasional uttered threat (of pending court, or whatever) by your BPDx may not actually ever happen. But if it does, ... .consider  to "threaten back" in a non attacking manner but more in a matter-of-fact manner.

    Eg. reply to your ex this: "I would really like to see more of our daughter as we have so much fun when it is my turn to see her, ... .so I think that since you are considering a future court session, we can kill two birds with one stone, ... .meaning that I will ask for much more time if not full custody, ... what are your thoughts on that?".

[ogopogodude]

(I am the exception to most that are here in these forums from a parental point of view--> Most fathers never achieve what I have accomplished meaning I have full custody of our teenagers, and I was awarded back into the matrimonial home --ie. "sole occupancy"-- with the kids, etc... and my BPDex/wife had to vacate and go find a place to reside)

[clydegriffith]

Very good responses here everyone, thanks.

I think i will look for a lawyer around her hometown which is where the kids are and to my understanding, the appropriate jurisdiction for any legal proceedings of this nature. Some of the things mentioned here would defintley be in my favor as she was the one that moved 7 hours away and the latest alleged baby daddy who she is now living with assists her financially with rent, bills, etc.

I would indeed like more parenting time or at the very least more facetime/skype calls and being able to physically have her every 6-8 weeks without any problems. It seems like right now it all depends on the BPDx's mood and im getting tired of it. I don't know how we would have been able to work this out thus far if it wasn't for the x's mother. She's been very helpful throughout all this.

[catnap]

Also, does character and circumstances ever play a factor in these things? The BPDx has had 5 kids by 3 guys in 6 years and is currently living with the latest alleged baby daddy. She lost custody of the two older kids and does not pay support for them to the father.

If you are looking at going for sole custody, yes it will. 

Questions: 

How did she lose custody of 2 older children?

Is new baby daddy a felon?  Does your ex have a record?

Drug or alcohol abuse by ex or new bf?

When you go for consultations, you might want to do brief outline and ask a few questions about gaining sole custody of your daughter.  She is living in an unstable environment, Mom has track record of new bfs changing it appears every couple of years. 

[clydegriffith]

Also, does character and circumstances ever play a factor in these things? The BPDx has had 5 kids by 3 guys in 6 years and is currently living with the latest alleged baby daddy. She lost custody of the two older kids and does not pay support for them to the father.

If you are looking at going for sole custody, yes it will.  

Questions:  

How did she lose custody of 2 older children?

Is new baby daddy a felon?  :)oes your ex have a record?

Drug or alcohol abuse by ex or new bf?

When you go for consultations, you might want to do brief outline and ask a few questions about gaining sole custody of your daughter.  She is living in an unstable environment, Mom has track record of new bfs changing it appears every couple of years.  

She lost custody of her 2 older children because Child Services ended up getting involved in our lives because of the false domestic violence allegations she kept making against me. They made the recommendation to the court that older kids would be better off with their dad and has family and the court ruled accordingly. My court appointed attorney for that matter told me that they let her keep my daughter because of the fact that allegations against me and because she was only around 6 months old at the time.  

I dont believe the new alleged baby daddy is a felon. He's probably a good guy and i think he spends more time with her kids than she does as she works bartending at night. The X is the problem.

She doesn't have an alcohol or drug problem but i think she's a sex addict. I know that's not frowned upon the same way as alcohol or drugs but believe me it can cause just as much if not more damage in people's lives.

She has a criminal record. A misdeamneaor for identity theft. She has the same name as her former sister-in-law and opened up a bunch of credit cards in her name and got caught.

[ForeverDad]

Up until about the mid-1900s fathers were the historical head of the family.  Then it changed when the Tender Years Doctrine was embraced and if the parents divorced the mothers were always considered the best at raising and nurturing the children.  Yes, a huge change from before and as the courts have learned, not every mother is the better parent.  Eventually it was seen as too much of a change and in recent years courts and laws are becoming more and more "gender neutral".  But still mothers are generally given default preference, if not in writing then through the way the policies and procedures are designed.  Also judges are given wide latitude in their "judicial discretion".

What that means for you and me and so many other dads is that it is still an uphill struggle for fathers in most courts.  However, that should not discourage us.  Quite likely the courts assume most fathers will accept the past stereotype handed them and move out and leave their wallets behind.  You have to let the court know that, contrary to current circumstances, (1) you do want to be very involved in parenting and (2) you have grave concerns about her parenting and her lifestyle as well.  While courts often give less weight to a parent's adult behaviors that don't directly affect the children, they do pay more attention to the parenting behaviors.  So while it is good to use all documented poor behaviors, give priority to the parenting behaviors.

Beware of one personality trait that can trip you up.  Many of us dads are too reasonable, too nice, too fair and too whatever.  What that means is that we can obscure the pertinent facts and reasons for going to court with out sense of fairness.  So don't say she's a great mother or even an okay one.  And don't ask for just what you think is a 'fair' nibble of time that you could live with.  What do you want long term?  Custody and majority time?  Then ask for that or at least get it mentioned in writing to court.  Let that be the position you see as best for your child.  Sure you may not get it but let the court know that not only are you willing to step forward, you feel you should for your child's sake.

For example, here's a scenario. You ask for 50% and your ex asks to keep it at 99% for her.  Judge may be inclined to split the difference and set or leave you at alternate weekends.  Being remote, that's not any help for your case.  Your stated position can be something like this.  "Your honor, Due to my ex's past actions and behaviors and her unwillingness to share our child, I am seeking custody and majority time of our child.  I can cooperate and share as appropriate.  However, if the court is unwilling to do that at this time, our child still needs me in her life, more than for just a few brief visits due to her mother moving away.  While I still believe our child would do best with me, I ask that at least my decision making and my time with our child is increased.  Some ways to accomplish that while we live so far apart can include, but not be limited to, (1) father gets two months of parenting during the summer starting with Father's Day weekend in mid June to mid-August, still allowing mother to have early June or late August for her vacations with our child, (2) at least two of these three long school holidays each year: Thanksgiving week, Winter Break and Spring Break, (3) and additional holiday or event time as the court chooses to grant."

As I wrote, you may not get everything from the start, but you do yourself and your child a disservice if you walk into court timidly asking for crumbs.  And it does get better over time if there are issues that bring you back to court.  In my case, my ex even ranted that I'd never see my son again and other times said just a little now and then.  Well, when we separated and when afterward my ex started making allegations against me, CPS stepped forward and said they had no concerns about me.  (I noticed they didn't make any comments whatsoever about concerns about her, probably because her allegations were only about me.  CPS just did the bare minimum.)  Despite my ex facing a charge of Threat of DV in another court at that time, she was given temp custody and I was relegated to being an alternate weekend dad.  After two years, the final decree had me with equal time.  Three more years and I got custody.  Two more years and I got majority time during the school year.

[ogopogodude]

Foreverdad is right on the mark with all his comments.  Unfortunately, during any divorce and court sessions you have to make yourself look like you and your support people (friends, family) polish your halo over your head every night before bed, while your mate has horns coming from his/her head.   This is ESPECIALLY true if you are a father/male.   The court system always favours the mother for some weird reason.  But this is changing slowly.

When one is going to court, one has to go for the jugular and not not feel the least bit guilty about it... .  If your spouse has temper tantrums and acts like a nutball, ... .then don't hold back, ... .expose everything ... .and simply tell the truth.  

Just because your spouse is nice 85% of the time and then becomes a Mr Hyde the other 15% the other, ... .it doesn't matter, ... .that majority of the niceness does not make up for sh**y parenting.    It is that friggin simple

[livednlearned]

Unfortunately, during any divorce and court sessions you have to make yourself look like you and your support people (friends, family) polish your halo over your head every night before bed, while your mate has horns coming from his/her head.   This is ESPECIALLY true if you are a father/male.  

I think you have to be careful about this -- or maybe Ogopogo you are using hyperbole for effect? You don't need to make your ex look like she has horns coming her head. Most pwBPD behaviors, when documented and presented to the court, speak for themselves. If you stand in front of a judge and gun for your ex, it will back fire. Focus on behaviors that impact the kids. That's what the court cares about.

What helped me in my custody saga was showing up in court and acting like a grown-up. I always came prepared with reasonable solutions to try and contain my ex's behaviors. Everything was about S13.

I learned everything I could about how things worked where I live, and over time figured out strategies to make sure that the order included consequences. I did that because with BPD sufferers, they don't follow the order, and I wanted to make sure that the consequences were already spelled out. I didn't want to pay a lot of money to my L and not get the outcome in court I wanted. The judge would say, "If Mr. N/BPDx agreed to this consequence, and he isn't following the order, then it seems pretty clear to me that this is what needs to happen." A consequence might be as extreme as asking for full custody or terminating visitation. Or it could be that failure to comply would result in N/BPDx paying my legal fees.

Don't let the tender years doctrine prevent you from doing what you think is best. I came across some research a while back about how it's true that more women get primary physical custody, but more women also ask for it. And of the men who sought primary physical custody, about half were successful. Those are reasonable odds, if all things were equal in each of those cases, which they most likely aren't (and there's no way to know).

The research wasn't every state in the US, and the way the data was collected was a little bit apples to oranges because some states carve up custody in different ways. But the takeaway for me is that the bias is self-perpetuating -- a lawyer might tell his client that a father will never get primary physical custody, so the father doesn't file. It won't hurt to ask for majority custody -- you certainly won't be punished for it. And you have an excellent precedent, better than what many fathers have. You could ask for full custody and supervised visitation, knowing that you might not get everything you want, but you give the court some room to negotiate down to, say, primary physical custody with a parenting coordinator, or supervised visits until your ex does xyz. All kinds of scenarios are possible. The point is that it's best to ask for more than what you expect to get, so that you get what is reasonable.

[ogopogodude]

yes, ... .you're exactly right.  I didn't quite mean it like it was written.  One does not need to make their BPD ex spouse look like the very devil, ... .they will do that perfectly fine all by themselves.

Just tell the truth