Finally talked to a lawyer...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My current status with my uBPDh is that I've been out of the house since mid February, he immediately started seeing a counselor once a week but he's made no change in how he treats me. Same garbage, same invalidating, mean spirited bs. Clearly if he is trying to win me back he's very confused about how to go about it!

Anyway, if I am in charge of my own safety both mentally and physically I can't be in a relationship with him. Surely the past 38 years we've been married he had time to make some changes and treat me with a minimum of respect for simply being another human being.

So--I went to a consultation with a lawyer that a friend recommended. I really liked her! She's practical, calm, seems to have the big picture about these relationships, and she put me at ease. Plus my free half hour consultation was more like 2 hours! Of course I still think of questions I didn't remember to ask... .

I think i'm still a bit FOGbound, because I hear my h's entreaties about how tight money is and blah blah blah and I feel guilty for thinking that I need to take legal steps to protect myself financially. He's gotten pretty guarded about the money, even though we have a joint bank account I can access. And of course he accuses me of all manner of financial espionage because I have a personal account I can move money to, though I've only moved what I need to live on each paycheck. I don't have enough to live in my own space somewhere so i'm sharing an apartment with a friend--but it's more like I am the visitor in her apartment. Not optimal, especially for the Upcoming Events of Legal Proportions.

What's my question? I really like this lawyer and it seems like she can handle things with confidence. But a $6000 retainer is craziness when I have no real money of my own being on disability, and I would have to put that money on credit cards.

Hiring her will set scary things in motion: I assume we would have to sell our house to split the money, and I have no idea how that would work with him and our son and 3 doggies living there and it looks like a pigsty. I want the dogs. They don't get enough attention, nothing like they were used to when I was home, and 2 of them are 12 years old and likely don't have a huge amount of years left.

Without doing something legal I can't imagine my h being any more cooperative about life and money than he ever has been.

I suppose I merely fear the fallout to come--he's already been texting and emailing me crap (most of which I don't even respond to) about how he has "paid for my life for years" how I am "happy to use him for a paycheck when I don't have to do anything" (it's true, I asked God to give me a chronic pain and fatigue illness so I could get less than a forth the money per month that rent is around here!) I guess he forgets that I have taken care of him and our family all these years that he was "paying for my life." Ultimate insult.

I suppose I am looking for validation that I am doing the right thing if I get legal counsel that I can't afford... .

Hating this! 

[Elpis]

My current status with my uBPDh is that I've been out of the house since mid February, he immediately started seeing a counselor once a week but he's made no change in how he treats me. Same garbage, same invalidating, mean spirited bs. Clearly if he is trying to win me back he's very confused about how to go about it!

Anyway, if I am in charge of my own safety both mentally and physically I can't be in a relationship with him. Surely the past 38 years we've been married he had time to make some changes and treat me with a minimum of respect for simply being another human being.

So--I went to a consultation with a lawyer that a friend recommended. I really liked her! She's practical, calm, seems to have the big picture about these relationships, and she put me at ease. Plus my free half hour consultation was more like 2 hours! Of course I still think of questions I didn't remember to ask... .

I think i'm still a bit FOGbound, because I hear my h's entreaties about how tight money is and blah blah blah and I feel guilty for thinking that I need to take legal steps to protect myself financially. He's gotten pretty guarded about the money, even though we have a joint bank account I can access. And of course he accuses me of all manner of financial espionage because I have a personal account I can move money to, though I've only moved what I need to live on each paycheck. I don't have enough to live in my own space somewhere so i'm sharing an apartment with a friend--but it's more like I am the visitor in her apartment. Not optimal, especially for the Upcoming Events of Legal Proportions.

What's my question? I really like this lawyer and it seems like she can handle things with confidence. But a $6000 retainer is craziness when I have no real money of my own being on disability, and I would have to put that money on credit cards.

Hiring her will set scary things in motion: I assume we would have to sell our house to split the money, and I have no idea how that would work with him and our son and 3 doggies living there and it looks like a pigsty. I want the dogs. They don't get enough attention, nothing like they were used to when I was home, and 2 of them are 12 years old and likely don't have a huge amount of years left.

Without doing something legal I can't imagine my h being any more cooperative about life and money than he ever has been.

I suppose I merely fear the fallout to come--he's already been texting and emailing me crap (most of which I don't even respond to) about how he has "paid for my life for years" how I am "happy to use him for a paycheck when I don't have to do anything" (it's true, I asked God to give me a chronic pain and fatigue illness so I could get less than a forth the money per month that rent is around here!) I guess he forgets that I have taken care of him and our family all these years that he was "paying for my life." Ultimate insult.

I suppose I am looking for validation that I am doing the right thing if I get legal counsel that I can't afford... .

Hating this! 

[Waddams]

Can you get SS disability?  Or some other kind of public aid money wise?  EBT to pay for food, etc.?

Is there some kind therapy program you could get into that could help you get on your feet enough for a job to earn some money?  I know it's hard, and sometimes it takes A LOT of bouncing around different PT/OT places, but there just might be the one person out there with the skills to put you back together.  My sister just got an MAT (muscle activation therapy) certificate and she gives freeby sessions to my mom and dad.  Both of them are now up and around better than they've been in years.  They all swear it's miracle type stuff.  I'm not saying it would definitely do the same for you, but lots of times, what one doctor or therapist can't fix, another one somewhere can.  The search is hard, but not impossible.

And here's another question and it's a bit of a non-mainstream thought.  Do you really need to divorce?  I know a few older guys that split from their wives, but just never legally divorced.  Both had been through the divorce ringer prior and just decided they didn't want to do it.  So they never filed.  and their wives never did.  Both have been separated for years and years.  They are basically divorced in all practical terms (no joint anything, sold off/bought out interests in joint assets like houses, etc.).  I think they both haven't seen their "wives" in years and don't care to.  Their wives apparently feel the same.  All parties just untangled all the practical stuff and moved on without bothering with the legalities.

Basically, if you can't afford the L, are there ways to go ahead and move ahead with your life regardless?  Answer is probably so.  Perhaps your uBPDh could be persuaded to buy you out of the house interest.  Having the cash in your pocket instead of selling the house and putting the cash in the L's pocket could be a better plan for right now.  So overall, figuring out some way to get yourself otherwise independent might be much more beneficial than anything else right now.  I know that's much easier said than done, but nothing worth doing is ever done without hard work.

[livednlearned]

BPD tends to make even the simplest things difficult, and divorce is no exception. If you have health issues, and concerns about how things will go, I would encourage you to put together a really careful plan and give yourself plenty of time to get things in order. You might like this lawyer, but I think there are some other things that might need to happen first, although perhaps you have already done a lot of leg work.

I took a year to plan, and everything I did was without N/BPDx's knowledge. It's not a good idea to tip your hand or even mention the D word with someone who suffers from BPD.

In that year, I photocopied documents I knew I would need. Others here recommend documenting your home, your belongings, the condition of your home with a camera. I didn't have to meet with an accountant because my dad is good with that kind of stuff, but I recommend that you talk to an accountant or someone who thinks that way, and start crunching numbers to see how much you will need to live comfortably. It will increase your confidence to know exactly what you need, what you could gain from the divorce, and how things will financially play out. If you are on disability and have no recourse for income, the financial part probably feels nerve-wracking.

Look at real estate in your area and how it's selling, how much it costs to get a house ready to sell. If your H is being secretive about money, you might want to look into forensic accountants to see how much they cost and what, exactly, they can do, if anything. Talk to realtors or look online to see how long houses sit on the market. Do you know how much equity is in the home? Do you think your ex would want to sell? Does he have enough money to buy you out? Lawyers don't do a great job helping clients work through this part ahead of time, so don't rely on your L to play a strong role here. And what I learned is that Ls tend to throw $10K around like it's a monopoly money. If you do anything in mediation, the Ls will lead things and that's not always the best thing for you. You want to go into that meeting knowing what your bottom line is, what you can negotiate, and what would constitute an amazing win.

Did your L give you an idea about how much you might get in alimony and for how long? If there is credit card debt, how would that be divvied up in the divorce?

The tricky thing is that once you file for divorce, your H is likely to make a grab at the joint account. A lot of lawyers recommend it, actually, because they don't want their client to be the one shut out of the account. Often, the court just yawns when this happens, and then several months can follow where there is no formal agreement in place until a hearing is scheduled. Your H will likely delay and obstruct and extend that time, and meanwhile you have no access to the funds.

So if you do file, you have to make a very difficult decision about whether to act quickly and protect yourself, or be passive and let him get a very serious upper hand on your financially. (Not recommended) There is no legal repercussion for taking half of what is in your joint accounts, and your H probably knows that. My L also encouraged me to draft half of what was available in our home equity account, which I did. All of that got sorted out in our financial settlement. It's your money, you are as entitled to it as he is. Marriage is a contract, and divorce represents, among other things, the business end of things, and there are laws in place to make sure both parties exit the relationship living at the same relative standard of living. You need to deal with your guilt and treat this like a business contract.

The fact that your H is behaving suspiciously about money isn't something to laugh about. If he gets the upper hand, you lose all your leverage. Losing leverage means higher legal bills.  

I know this is overwhelming -- changing such a significant part of our lives is no small feat. But on the other side the grass truly is greener. You have to go through some serious paces to get there, though. And plan carefully.

A good strategy makes all the difference.

[Elpis]

I did follow the advice to document our home and belongings, and I've photocopied a lot of stuff. There isn't a single room that is complete in our home, that's been one of the difficulties with my uBPDh, he's a big fan of starting things and then saying that his circumstances don't allow him to finish.

We have decent equity in the house, we've been there for many years and it's mostly paid off, but he has always cried how hard things are financially, but I know a lot of that has been poor planning or no planning, and then his circumstances are the reason that didn't happen either. He's a pretty difficult guy with a very big victim complex i'm starting to realize.

I've never heard of that MAT thing--i'll have to look around to see if that's around us anywhere. That would be cool!

Yep, the financial thing is pretty scary--and I cannot see my h being kind and fair about being separated. He already is making it difficult for me to do anything more than pay my friend for my part of the rent and buy some food. He's not reasonable enough to merely agree to separate our finances, especially now that he sees them as HIS finances, HIS stuff. And he has control issues, I think that's just a part of his BPD. If he could keep me under his thumb like he has for years, that's what he'd continue to do. Without a legal reason to share he will not. If he could be reasonable, I probably wouldn't have left.

At 61 and having been out of work since 2002 isn't gonna get me far in the job market in California.

the lawyer didn't give me any idea of what alimony would be, but all that will be pried from my uBPD's fingers... .he's not gonna go gently into that dark night!

I've thought of simply remaining separated forever, but I don't know that I want that. i'm 61, not dead, and I have no idea what the future holds but I don't know that I want to BE "on hold" for my entire future... .

I would be homeless if he grabbed the joint account. And my one thing I am very sure of is that having those BPD traits, he's not going to make anything easy.

[Turkish]

If you've read here a bit, you'll see the advice is to be proactive. I live a bit south of you in the ghetto, but the Bay Area real estate values are almost back to what they were during the bubble. Even with the house in its condition, there are always cash investors willing to buy, put in some money, and flip. Of course your H won't see it logically.

You could do as Waddams suggested and let it lie. If your H cuts you off, charge up those credit cards. My L asked for a $5k retainer,.so that's not out of the ballpark, especially where you live. The thing is that my L told me that a non conflictual divorce costs around $3k. uBPDh sounds like he will try and fight, or just be weird as he has been. Your advantage is that he has the $. What does your gut tell you?

[Elpis]

Him having the money seems a bit of a DISadvantage to me... .

My gut is gutless and says to stick my head in the sand. But that's a lousy long-term solution.

He's been trying to wear me down lately, lots of multiple phone calls in a row, lots of the garbage he used to say to me but now in text and email. I would   if I could just hire the lawyer, she seems quite capable and unafraid (while I am still afraid, sadly) I just don't know if that would make it more adversarial than it is currently. He gives me this weird "we'll make the money work" talk after all the "I've paid for your life for a long time" talk. And he told me his paycheck was in the bank, but when I looked it's some weird deposit of a far smaller amount, not his usual auto-deposit. This seems worrisome. And suspicious.

I just wanted to get through Christmas!

[momtara]

$6,000 is hard... .and yes, it sets things in motion.  You can get a no interest credit card and pay it off slowly.  Nevertheless, it seems like the bigger idea is whether to start now or hold off.  As some have said, if you can be quiet and wait a bit and make sure all your ducks in a row, maybe you can do that.  Depends on the risks.  The dogs are what worry me.  I don't know that you want a big battle over them.  Not sure where you moved to - I wonder if there's a psychological way to get him to just give them to you, or if you can just take them.  They're considered property in the eyes of the law and I don't think a court will care about them as much as you do.  I wouldn't want your ex to use them to manipulate you.

[Elpis]

Momtara,

the dogs are how he gets me to the house, but I go when he's at work. If I see his truck when I drive toward the house I just keep on driving... .

As long as we have legal ties I don't think i'll get to that "freedom" goal in the sidebar of the Leaving board. Hateful. Having to realize nothing is like I thought it was.

If we end up selling the house (even "as is" we will need some furniture in there. But I want to take the things that are important to me out of there, though that tells him i'm pulling out big time.

I'm rooming with a friend, and I can't have the dogs... .and there isn't even space for any of my furniture except in my tiny bedroom. It's a puzzle.

I just spent some time online going through the ins and outs of being prepared for a divorce etc. We'd have to split the credit card debt, community property state, but I wonder if I should take myself off all but one or two joint cards? I have several of my own. I wonder if I can get something that says he needs to stop verbally harassing me via email and text? That sh!t is why I left.

[livednlearned]

When my ex could sense me pulling away, the abuse and control escalated. Just the most nuanced shift in how I perceived him and our marriage, and he launched a whole new level of control. I knew that if I tipped my hand even slightly about filing for divorce, he would financially freeze me out and my exit plan would become ten times more complex. And expensive. And potentially not feasible. Then one day I got an automated message from American Express saying that I had been removed from the card and that set things in motion. In retrospect, I waited until the fuse was lit. Everyone seems to have a different threshold. Mine was that I didn't want my son to have a memory of me being physically abused, and I felt certain if I stayed through the weekend, N/BPDx would become physically abusive and I wouldn't be able to get my son out without a lot of trauma.  

I've never accomplished so many things in such a short period of time after N/BPDx shut down that credit card. I don't think he realized that I would get an email, so he didn't know I would act so quickly, nor did he know I had a plan in place. I drove to the bank and withdrew funds immediately, signed a lease for an apartment, got my son from school, and called the phone company so N/BPDx could not look at my phone records to see where I was and who I was talking to. I took my son to a friend's house, called law enforcement, and they did a domestic assistance call with me so I could get things from the house. I had already been putting things in a storage unit, mostly nostalgic things plus house items I knew I would need. N/BPDx had been in the habit of locking me house of the house, so I got the storage locker in case he changed the locks and I needed clothing or other necessities.

Your H might have a different pattern than mine. N/BPDx was escalating his aggression toward more and more physical violence. He had thrown my dog against a wall a month before I left, and almost daily was throwing things at my head, or locking me out of the house. Your H's pattern seems to be financial control. He isn't going to roll this back, DreamFlyer99. This is the trend, and you need to decide what your threshold is. If you wait too long, he may end up with all the leverage.

$6K for a retainer is reasonable, especially because you don't have kids or custody to worry about. The more leverage he has, the more the divorce will cost you. Without leverage, he can obstruct and stonewall all he wants.

Also, I'm going to say this as one woman to another who has been in an abusive marriage.  

This:

I would be homeless if he grabbed the joint account

.

is defeatist thinking. When you moved out, you made a decision that you didn't want to be a victim anymore. When you feel afraid and helpless, remind yourself that you are 61 and have a backbone, and you can figure this out.

If your ex freezes you out of the joint account, there are other things you can do. If you have a home equity account, you draft funds from that. You get a credit card like momtara suggested, but if there is a joint card then do a cash advance at high interest, which he will have to split in the financial settlement. If he cuts you off, he will have to settle and retroactively pay for any debt that accrues on. Maybe not right away, but eventually he will. You need leverage, and that might get him to pony up some cash so you aren't in a bind.

With your cash advance, you can pay your friend, or, if it gets really bad, you can ask your kids for help. If I remember your story correctly, one or two of them live close by and would not stand by and let you go homeless.

You have some research to do before you actually retain the lawyer and need to get a plan in place so you aren't in a position where you feel like a victim. Your H is predictable, and he is trying to gauge whether you're going to file for divorce or not. He feels no guilt whatsoever for controlling the funds -- and if he caught wind that you retained a lawyer, chances are he would freeze you out in a heart beat and not think twice.

Your head isn't in the sand, you're afraid. And understandably so. But you can put a plan together and protect yourself, and take care of yourself. He doesn't want you to know that, and maybe you aren't quite sure you're ready to believe that. I felt the same way when I left and as scary as it was, it was also so liberating.

[Elpis]

Yup, livednlearned,

I keep forgetting i'm not as stupid as he thinks I am!   And my children wouldn't let me be homeless, of course. And each piece of crap he throws at me is just making me more and more angry with him, which I see as a good thing. i'm finally moving from being sad about everything he does to hurt me to being pissed off.

What I realize he did this time with the money was to put his paycheck into his new personal account and dole out a certain amount into the joint checking. I think he knows he'd look even more like an arse to family if he left me without money. That would ensure I called the lawyer tomorrow.

I politely messaged him that I did some Christmas shopping at Ross using the money from the joint account, and he (of course) misunderstood and left this voicemail just dripping with control and condescension about how if I charged anything on a joint card I would have to pay it myself. He's doing this attitude like i'm a stupid and rebellious child. SOO makes me want to hurt him. (looking right now for an emoticon with a smashed face) But I guess it's not a new thing for him, it's just more clear to me now that I've been away for a while.

He has never ever hurt our dogs, he loves them but doesn't really have time for them. I'm not really sure about moving stuff from the house (other than small things) without making him suspicious. And he has ramped up the control, obviously, looking at the bank thing.

What would be waiting too long?

[livednlearned]

What would be waiting too long?

There is a big range in BPD behavior, so it's different for everyone.

I waited right until the boat had left the dock and I had to jump onto a buoy and hoist myself up before the dock went up in flames. Some people can hang out in simmering hot water forever, others wait until it's a rolling boil and they get second-degree burns. Pick your metaphor  

You two have been married a long time, and while he is being very controlling with money, he did not cut you off when you moved out. It could be that you haven't tripped his trigger yet. Or, you may be providing him the perfect amount of negative engagement. You're not around, but he has control over you. Maybe that feels exactly right to him.

So "waiting too long" is not necessarily about timing per se. It's more about what his line is, and what it would take to cross it.

[Elpis]

Or, you may be providing him the perfect amount of negative engagement. You're not around, but he has control over you. Maybe that feels exactly right to him.

So "waiting too long" is not necessarily about timing per se. It's more about what his line is, and what it would take to cross it.

I'd imagine he's feeling some powerful control making sure I can't pull large sums of money from the joint bank account, even though I wouldn't because I know he's paying the bills and I want him to be able to keep doing so.

Me taking the dogs would cross it for sure. I won't do that without the lawyer making it happen I don't think. And charging a bunch on a joint credit card would cross it. And I don't want the freaking leather couches impulse buy of his or the tempurpedic bed--i'll take their worth in cash please!

i'm gonna have to think about that--I see my T on Monday, so i'll get some input about this then too... .