Should I meet with his T for "mediation" ?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I previously posted on the staying board but I guess this is a better place since we are separated and he doesn't seem to know what he wants.

For a short recap my uBPDh was violent last fall after 3.5 years w/o incident, as in he was never violent before that date. He was drunk and upset about someone else saying racist remarks to him but it was entirely unprovoked and not my fault.

A couple months later he smashed his head into the car window until it broke when we left our first couples therapy session after his act of violence.  At that point I got a protective order and pressed charges for the earlier assault. This effectively started our separation and kicked him out of the apartment we rent together.

Fast forward to today and he got probation after agreeing to an FUA(finding under assessment) and the case will be dismissed if he behaves for a year. I asked the court to be lenient. Our protective order allows contact but prohibits violence and damaging property. Despite this he has made few attempts to talk to me about things other than property distribution and money/debts. We thankfully have little joint property and no children.

He did contact me on 1/26/15 to say "it's over" and hang up only to apologize for saying that on 2/13/15.  He also said he wanted to do mediation with his T and me but didn't day if it was to reconcile or for the separation.

He has been seeing a T twice a week since December. Around 1/23/15 I tried to contact his T to see if she would take me as a patient. She said there was a conflict of interest unless H agreed. She said she would also only see me if he wanted to reconcile and she would check with him what he wanted to do. She never got back to me.

His T seemed to want to reconcile us when she spoke to me on the phone. People on this board cautioned me not to read into her feelings too much.

Eventually I found my own T in the middle of February.

On 3/9/15 my H sent me the email below:

"Hi fox angel

I talked to my therapist today and she denied that she said she would only do reconciliation mediation. I have spoken to her and she seems very sympathetic to you based on her interactions with you. She believes that you were right to press criminal charges and a protective order and believes that I should consider reconciliation with you. While I disagree with some of her opinions, I think it would be a good idea for her to see you in person and to mediate a discussion between you and me where we work out how we will separate our lives. If you do not yet have a regular therapist please consider seeing her. I hope you are reaching out to others who can see the good in you. I suspect that our friend x would understand your situation better than some of my other friends.

-H"

Note that I had lost many of my friends since they have taken his side and/or blamed me for his assault.

I forwarded him the emails I had with his T along with the message below.  I also copied his T so there would be no more he said she said BS:

"Below is my communication with T. She has stated that she cannot meet alone with me due to a conflict of interest unless you are ok it. As far as I know you have refused this since she never replies back to me after saying she will check with you.  I will respect your decision on this.

I am not against speaking to your T but I don't know if it's really necessary, since we already seem to be living separate lives without her input.

I would prefer to file joint 2014 taxes. When I spoke to a lawyer about this they said there would be no issue since we were married in 2014 and thus fulfill the status requirements.  I estimate we would get a refund for the federal filing (I haven't checked the State taxes yet). You can keep whatever refunds we would get since you seem to need it more than I do. Of course these are only estimates since I don't have information from you about your income. Please make a decision about how you want to file by 3/27/15.

My employer has a couple mediation companies that they recommend if you truly feel it's necessary. I did not ask how much they cost but for the small amount we are dealing with I'd rather try something that would be easier and cheaper. Would your church pastor be willing to mediate our separation or can you think of anyone else?

As I state below I am seeing a different therapist already. I asked him about mediation but he said he also does not mediate separations only reconciliations.

Do whatever you think is right. You don't have to listen to T. It's your life after all and you will be the one who has to live it.  You need to make your own independent decision.

I don't need reassurance from others to know that I'm a good person. I have nothing against x. She has not reached out to me but I hope she is being a supportive friend to you.  Please tell her congrats on her wedding for me.

Take care,

Fox angel"

My T says H seems to be all over the place and seems bent on saying he's bipolar but I feel like BPD is a better fit.

To me it's pretty clear H wants nothing to do with me. He is trying unsuccessfully to date other women and seems more interested in illegal drugs.

At this point I don't really care what happens-I'm fine without H and I'm fine with him. I'm not messaging him or calling him since I don't want to look desperate and needy. If he calls me I let it go to voicemail.

I am fine being in "limbo" right now since I don't think I should date anyone for a while. It feels wrong when I am still married. If we get a divorce it will be him paying for it and filing the papers. I promised him I would never leave him and I'm sticking to my word.

I don't want him to reconcile with me if his T is forcing him to. It does sadden me that he can just let go so easily after 4 years but he is impulsive.

Should I agree to meet his T?  Alone?  With him? I almost feel like he will use me to get closure. I don't know what there is to say really.

He has all his property. I don't know what the rush is to work out the money especially since with my calculations he owes me about $250.

[foxangel82]

I previously posted on the staying board but I guess this is a better place since we are separated and he doesn't seem to know what he wants.

For a short recap my uBPDh was violent last fall after 3.5 years w/o incident, as in he was never violent before that date. He was drunk and upset about someone else saying racist remarks to him but it was entirely unprovoked and not my fault.

A couple months later he smashed his head into the car window until it broke when we left our first couples therapy session after his act of violence.  At that point I got a protective order and pressed charges for the earlier assault. This effectively started our separation and kicked him out of the apartment we rent together.

Fast forward to today and he got probation after agreeing to an FUA(finding under assessment) and the case will be dismissed if he behaves for a year. I asked the court to be lenient. Our protective order allows contact but prohibits violence and damaging property. Despite this he has made few attempts to talk to me about things other than property distribution and money/debts. We thankfully have little joint property and no children.

He did contact me on 1/26/15 to say "it's over" and hang up only to apologize for saying that on 2/13/15.  He also said he wanted to do mediation with his T and me but didn't day if it was to reconcile or for the separation.

He has been seeing a T twice a week since December. Around 1/23/15 I tried to contact his T to see if she would take me as a patient. She said there was a conflict of interest unless H agreed. She said she would also only see me if he wanted to reconcile and she would check with him what he wanted to do. She never got back to me.

His T seemed to want to reconcile us when she spoke to me on the phone. People on this board cautioned me not to read into her feelings too much.

Eventually I found my own T in the middle of February.

On 3/9/15 my H sent me the email below:

"Hi fox angel

I talked to my therapist today and she denied that she said she would only do reconciliation mediation. I have spoken to her and she seems very sympathetic to you based on her interactions with you. She believes that you were right to press criminal charges and a protective order and believes that I should consider reconciliation with you. While I disagree with some of her opinions, I think it would be a good idea for her to see you in person and to mediate a discussion between you and me where we work out how we will separate our lives. If you do not yet have a regular therapist please consider seeing her. I hope you are reaching out to others who can see the good in you. I suspect that our friend x would understand your situation better than some of my other friends.

-H"

Note that I had lost many of my friends since they have taken his side and/or blamed me for his assault.

I forwarded him the emails I had with his T along with the message below.  I also copied his T so there would be no more he said she said BS:

"Below is my communication with T. She has stated that she cannot meet alone with me due to a conflict of interest unless you are ok it. As far as I know you have refused this since she never replies back to me after saying she will check with you.  I will respect your decision on this.

I am not against speaking to your T but I don't know if it's really necessary, since we already seem to be living separate lives without her input.

I would prefer to file joint 2014 taxes. When I spoke to a lawyer about this they said there would be no issue since we were married in 2014 and thus fulfill the status requirements.  I estimate we would get a refund for the federal filing (I haven't checked the State taxes yet). You can keep whatever refunds we would get since you seem to need it more than I do. Of course these are only estimates since I don't have information from you about your income. Please make a decision about how you want to file by 3/27/15.

My employer has a couple mediation companies that they recommend if you truly feel it's necessary. I did not ask how much they cost but for the small amount we are dealing with I'd rather try something that would be easier and cheaper. Would your church pastor be willing to mediate our separation or can you think of anyone else?

As I state below I am seeing a different therapist already. I asked him about mediation but he said he also does not mediate separations only reconciliations.

Do whatever you think is right. You don't have to listen to T. It's your life after all and you will be the one who has to live it.  You need to make your own independent decision.

I don't need reassurance from others to know that I'm a good person. I have nothing against x. She has not reached out to me but I hope she is being a supportive friend to you.  Please tell her congrats on her wedding for me.

Take care,

Fox angel"

My T says H seems to be all over the place and seems bent on saying he's bipolar but I feel like BPD is a better fit.

To me it's pretty clear H wants nothing to do with me. He is trying unsuccessfully to date other women and seems more interested in illegal drugs.

At this point I don't really care what happens-I'm fine without H and I'm fine with him. I'm not messaging him or calling him since I don't want to look desperate and needy. If he calls me I let it go to voicemail.

I am fine being in "limbo" right now since I don't think I should date anyone for a while. It feels wrong when I am still married. If we get a divorce it will be him paying for it and filing the papers. I promised him I would never leave him and I'm sticking to my word.

I don't want him to reconcile with me if his T is forcing him to. It does sadden me that he can just let go so easily after 4 years but he is impulsive.

Should I agree to meet his T?  Alone?  With him? I almost feel like he will use me to get closure. I don't know what there is to say really.

He has all his property. I don't know what the rush is to work out the money especially since with my calculations he owes me about $250.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey foxangel82, By posing the question in this way, you presumably know the answer already: No, of course you shouldn't meet with your H's T, who has an obvious conflict of interest.  Why are you leaving it up to your H to decide whether the r/s will go forward?  What about your thought on this subject?  LuckyJim

[foxangel82]

Hey foxangel82, By posing the question in this way, you presumably know the answer already: No, of course you shouldn't meet with your H's T, who has an obvious conflict of interest.  Why are you leaving it up to your H to decide whether the r/s will go forward?  What about your thought on this subject?  LuckyJim

My choice has been made. I want to work things out but I know I can't force him to do this so now the choice is his to make. Relationships require 2 people. I know chasing him is counterproductive.

I received another email from him today:

"Hello fox angel,

I will tell T that you can talk to her separately. She wants me to honest about everything so that she gets the complete picture and it seems that she does not understand why I do not want to get back with you, since you apparently sounded so sweet and sincere on the phone with her. I do not want her to think of you as a bad person but I don't think she knows everything from your side and I would like her to hear from you directly your explanations and motivations behind your actions. I also believe you do not know my motivations for the separation either, and you would benefit from hearing them from me. This is if you care at all. But if you don't care, I think that if anything you should be speeding along the separation process by figuring out how to divide the joint bank account holdings so that I can prepare a separation agreement.

I want to see if my T is okay with mediating the separation and if not I can try to talk to Y from My church. The reason why I suggest talking to X is because I've heard her express sentiments that indicate she understands what you were going through in October and November. Whatever the case, I hope you are actively contacting friends for support because they may not contact you first.

I will contact a lawyer to see what he or she says about filing jointly when separated.

-H"

I get the sense he thinks I am being dishonest when I talked to his T on the phone in January. I don't really know this person X very we'll other than she's an alcoholic that goes to his church and AA meetings.

I think he's baffled why I am not trying to separate from him faster. In truth I want him to be the one to leave me. His story online is that I "kicked him to the curb" and it makes me dad that he won't work things out. I'm interested in his motivations for the separation but I'm not expecting to learn anything new. I think I am just not enough of a badass for him. He takes issue with the fact that I want to have sex with him because I love him and not because I'm horny and need to "get off".

I replied with:

"H,

I can meet with your T if she agrees. Have her email me to let me know when she is available.

I do care about your motivations and would like to hear them.

Thanks

Fox angel"

I am not sure how to prepare. I don't want to talk trash about him if he's not there since that's not fair. I think I just want to make a list of all the things I've done wrong and ways I've mistreated him. I don't want to get sympathy or play the victim. Maybe this will provide me with some closure that most people on the boards will never get.

[foxangel82]

Hmm... he copied me on his email to his T and it looks like he wants a meeting with the 3 of us.  Initially I thought it would just be his T and me. 

I guess it doesn't change my mind.  We'll see what she says.

I came home to find a box with old pictures and cards that I had given to him.  I feel like this is another message from him that's saying he's moved on.  But why not just throw these things out?

[Grey Kitty]

Is there anything for yourself that you hope to get out of a session with his T? Either joint or individual?

[foxangel82]

Is there anything for yourself that you hope to get out of a session with his T? Either joint or individual?

I thought part of the purpose was to split up our debts/money. I was hoping for some closure too, like he can explain his motivation for getting a separation. I also wanted to apologize for my mistakes.

But I knew this was too good to be true. He sent an email this morning canceling saying he thought the meeting was a bad idea. His T was confused and sent an email saying"... .?"

I sent the email below only to his T:

"Hi T,

At this point I’m curious--was it your idea or H's idea to have a meeting?

I’m unsure about the purpose of the meeting.  I have printed out financial documents to show him because I thought he wanted to discuss the distribution of property and debts for our separation.  If he doesn’t want to talk about anything else that’s fine with me.

If H wants to just “talk at me” about his motivations that’s ok with me I don't need to say anything.   If he only wants me to answer yes/no questions that’s fine too.  If it’s too soon and he’s not ready I’m fine with rescheduling, just let me know when he decides what he wants.

Please check with him whether he objects to you and I meeting without him.  I think he will be against it but I’m not sure I understand what his concerns are. 

I will be patient. I don’t want to push for a meeting if it will make him upset and uncomfortable. If he has questions for me I’m willing to answer them.

I’m sorry to keep filling up your inbox.  I know this must be frustrating for you.

Take care,

Fox angel"

I think he's afraid of seeing me in person or maybe that I will act like a victim. I don't want to say bad things about him though.

I saw online he listed himself as heteroflexible, queer, questioning but still looking to meet only women. I don't know if that's related to the break up of our union or not.

In any case this will all make a great novel one day.

[Grey Kitty]

Is there anything for yourself that you hope to get out of a session with his T? Either joint or individual?

I thought part of the purpose was to split up our debts/money. I was hoping for some closure too, like he can explain his motivation for getting a separation. I also wanted to apologize for my mistakes.

with my calculations he owes me about $250.

It doesn't sound like the money/debts will require much to settle, especially since you don't sound interested in fighting over $250.

"Hoping for closure" doesn't seem like very good odds--he doesn't sound clear enough in his own head to be capable of this.

I can imagine a things you would want to apologize for, but not that you would need his therapist to do it.

Unless he's really asking clearly for this and pushing for it, I don't see much likely benefit for you  from it.

The one thing you said which still has me most concerned about your welfare is this:

I am fine being in "limbo" right now since I don't think I should date anyone for a while. It feels wrong when I am still married. If we get a divorce it will be him paying for it and filing the papers. I promised him I would never leave him and I'm sticking to my word.

I agree that limbo isn't going to harm you for a while... .but eventually it will become a problem for you. Leaving it hanging over you for months or years isn't going to serve you well. I don't think it will serve him well either... .but you have no control over how long he lets it linger if you refuse to file or pay anything for it on principle.

[foxangel82]

Is there anything for yourself that you hope to get out of a session with his T? Either joint or individual?

I agree that limbo isn't going to harm you for a while... .but eventually it will become a problem for you. Leaving it hanging over you for months or years isn't going to serve you well. I don't think it will serve him well either... .but you have no control over how long he lets it linger if you refuse to file or pay anything for it on principle.

It sounds like he is in a rush to file.  I'm not worried that this will drag on for years.  Likely just until June.  He wants a separation agreement in part so that the divorce will happen sooner.

His T emailed me again today and said he still wants me to meet with her by myself so I will go.  She said that the meeting was all his idea and she doesn't know why he is backing out either. 

I have no clue how this will go, but curiosity will kill the cat and the fox too I guess... .

[foxangel82]

Although I was very nervous I met his T on 3/13/15. She was very nice and compassionate. I actually like her better than my own T who seemed pretty unphased  by most things I have told him until I described my brother beating me with a baseball bat. I am afraid my T thinks I'm cold and unfeeling. I'm annoyed that he has not met my H but is convinced that he's bipolar and manipulative.

The only thing I didn't like was her questions about his ethnicity. I told her it didn't matter and I didn't know. If she felt it was important she should ask him. All I said was that he was Canadian.

She asked if he was ever sexually abused but he never told me that he was so I said she should ask my H.

His T agrees he has BPD traits and possibly other personality disorders. She finds his thoughts about women and relationships to be very illogical. She says he is confused. Even now his heart still wants me but his head is conflicted. She has told him that in the end love will win and I think that scared him. He layer admitted he didn't want to come because he was afraid she would force us to reconcile.

I spent a lot if time telling her how I treated him poorly after the assault and was sorry for hurting him. I didn't want to say anything bad about him if he wasn't there. She did ask if there was anything he did that seemed "off". I told her, hesitantly that sometimes his emotional reaction to something seemed out of proportion to the event. Like he would have a Tantrum over minor things.

She asked what I wanted. I said I wanted to work things out but essentially if I let him know that he won't want me. She agreed that we were in a sort of Mexican standoff. She said I should reach out to him.

I decided she was right so later I texted him to ask if I could call that night. He said he was busy but later sent an email. We had several long emails back and forth last week and he is very conflicted. He loves me but I've hurt him and he doesn't trust me. He wants to be with me but he wants to see if I am the best woman for him.

I learned that his T won't really let him get into another relationship until our divorce is finalized. Otherwise she's afraid the marriage will be unfinished business. I understand that but it puts me in a terrible position. I will need to agree to the divorce let him learn the grass is no greener and then reconcile and remarry. It's so inefficient, but I guess it's what he needs.

It's not stopping him from asking out every pretty girl he sees now any way. He doesn't appear to be having much luck but he blames this on his ole self esteem. His friends agree he shouldn't be dating but maybe this is his way of trying to get over me. His friends also seem to believe I lied about the assault, that I am abusive to him and he should not contact me.

He will only email and text me. I have not tried to call him or meet him but he has warned me that if I do he will get a restraining order against me. I am not violent or threatening to him. My emails are mostly sad and I'm probably doing everything I shouldn't (jADE). He is afraid if he sees me he won't control himself and will end up back in my arms and with me.

It's  truly tragic. I can only imagine the pain he feels.

He T says he will allow me to be seen by her but she has no openings until May. She thinks he has yet to make a decision about our marriage but without the support of his friends it sounds doomed to me.

I am in hospice for my heart and doing whatever I want (running, volunteering, gardening, watching movies, etc), but I am not over him. The only men I am drawn to remind me of him. I am fine not dating other people until we are divorced.

It seems there's nothing I can do to prevent a divorce at this point. I just need to accept things as they come.

[Grey Kitty]

  That appointment with his T sounds kinda strange for you. Really strange. Being asked to talk about him when he's not there, and unable to be in the room with you.

He T says he will allow me to be seen by her but she has no openings until May. She thinks he has yet to make a decision about our marriage but without the support of his friends it sounds doomed to me.

I am in hospice for my heart and doing whatever I want (running, volunteering, gardening, watching movies, etc), but I am not over him. The only men I am drawn to remind me of him. I am fine not dating other people until we are divorced.

It seems there's nothing I can do to prevent a divorce at this point. I just need to accept things as they come.

It is tough to accept something like this. I didn't hear anything in your description of your interactions with him that would make me expect any kind of good reconciliation with him. I could imagine a recycle where the two of you sweep all issues under the rug until something blows up... .although he seems determined to avoid that.

I guess it comes down to accepting that he has no idea what he wants, no clarity about how he can relate to you, is horribly confused and hurting, etc.

It will take time to get over him. Allow yourself the time. Allow it to hurt. Keep doing the things you can to take care of yourself. Sharing how it is going here is one of those things you can do.

 GK

[foxangel82]

H has said that his rational mind thinks he should have no contact with me but his irrational mind wants to run back into my arms. That he is as equally obsessed with me as I am with him and that he still loves me. 

But he thinks I was verbally/mentally abusive to him. I asked his T and she didn't think I was abusive (I actually think I had a better track record than most and maybe only called him stupid or an idiot less than 5 times over 4 years). But I did say that I wanted to warn other women about how he was violent and last fall I gave him the silent treatment to avoid saying mean things. I would lock myself alone in the bedroom out of fear and make him sleep in the guest room. He doesn't seem to understand that my sadness and anger and behavior were a result of the assault. Maybe that does make me abusive since I'm blaming him for the way I acted. I don't know how a normal person would behave towards their attacker after an assault. He just wanted me to act like it never happened since he claims he can't remember doing it.

He says at the moment reconciling with me is his one and only option. He wants to have other choices. I understand what he's saying. Like everyone else I don't think he should be dating other women but he's impulsive and thinks it will help cure his social anxiety.

His therapist has set these rules as part of his probation.

I think if we reconciled I would want it to go back to how it was. We had a secure, loving, & happy relationship up until a few months ago. I think he wouldn't make the same mistakes because he is getting a lot of counseling right now, supposedly staying sober and going to AA meetings, and if he violates his probation he would be deported and in a lot of trouble.

I know he feels bad and guilty for hurting me. Both his T and I think he needs to take ownership for the assault. He realizes he is at fault and what he did was wrong but he never apologizes outright for his actions. He struggled with the idea that he is a monster because of how he behaved.

I have forgiven him and let it go. I do think that it should be addressed with his T and we should air all our dirty laundry with each other or he won't be able to move on. From past experience I know that having him focus on it will be overwhelming and likely lead to another mental breakdown/suicide threats/visit to the psych ward. He still has a lot of healing to do.

But I see his behavior online. He has posted an ad in the casual encounters section of craigslist. I think he's getting desperate since attempts at dating are failing.  I do wonder if he's a sex addict as well.

I will need to tell my own T all the things I can't share with his T before I make the switch.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd like to make a very critical point about abuse. I ran into this in an essay on abuse and the nature of the abuser. It was in a specific context that doesn't apply here, but the point applies very well to your situation:

The thing we don’t like to admit is that people who abuse are not necessarily evil. They’re not necessarily bad people. If you ask someone, “What makes a person abuse?” you will hear a lot of answers like “some people are just monsters.” That black-and-white, Marvel Comics caricature of what “an abuser” looks like helps nobody. Often, people who abuse are friends. Often, people who abuse are hurting themselves. Often, people who abuse genuinely do have good things about them. Often, they’re not committing physical violence, and the abuse is hard to spot.

See, here’s the thing. Abusers often sincerely believe themselves to be victims.

People don’t wake up one morning and go “You know what? I think I’m going to become an abuser today! Boy, doesn’t that sound like fun? I’ll undermine and mistreat the people close to me!” Every person who commits abuse that I’ve ever met, without exception, is someone who is in a lot of pain. They feel that the abuse they do isn’t abuse—it’s a reasonable and natural response to the pain they’re in.

As people working in domestic violence prevention will tell you, abuse is about power and control. Lots and lots and lots of people, abusers and non-abusers alike, believe that if your partner does or says something and it makes you feel uncomfortable, threatened, jealous, or hurt, it’s okay for you to control them in order to deal with your feelings.

Is everyone who believes this an abusive person? Of course not. But the idea that if you feel something bad, it means someone else is doing something wrong and you should be able to make them stop doing it…well, that’s the root of all abuse.

And people who abuse genuinely feel that if they tell a partner to do something and the partner doesn’t do it, they’re the ones being abused. I’ve talked to so many people who complain, “My partner isn’t doing what I tell them to!” It hurts me when my partner doesn’t let me control them! That’s abuse! My partner is abusing me by not obeying me!

Your husband was really hurt and upset by things you did. He jumped to the conclusion that you were abusing him at that time.

That you were asserting your own boundaries, and that you were protecting yourself from his abuse doesn't change his feelings.

Your husband was abusive. You were not. The fact that he doesn't yet recognize tells me that he's likely to fall into the same pattern again next time he's hurting, uncomfortable, angry, or stressed about something, especially if it is a conflict between you and him.