Worried about enmeshed brother & not sure what's going on

[K1313]

Good morning everyone. Sorry if this gets long. There's a lot of history involved (isn't there always with BPD?).

I have two older brothers. After my parent's divorce, we were all subject to some pretty intense parentification by our BPDmother. The eldest took on the financial responsibilities for the family when he was still a teenager and my the other took on the emotional responsibilities (being our mother's confidant and friend. he was also the one who found her after she tried to kill herself when we were kids). I largely got the brunt of my mother's anger and frustration - never physical just emotional (blaming me for her pain over the divorce, calling me names etc). At first I was largely shielded from it because my disability made me the one the whole family had to rally around and protect. While neither of my brothers have ever said anything directly to me, I can only imagine that this created some resentment for them (I have heard them fighting about me a few times when I was around 12/13).

My eldest brother (with whom I get along well and have a lot in common) has distanced himself from our mother and we've talked pretty openly about her issues and he's currently working to extract himself from supporting our mother financially (which he's been doing for over 15 years now). My other brother though... .He and my mother are joined at the hip and always have been. Even when I was young and unaware of my mother's issues, they were always sneaking off together to go get lunch or coffee or just go do something together while my other brother and I stayed home. Every conflict I have had with my enmeshed brother, she's taken his side. Outsiders have jokingly called their relationship Oedipal but it's really not too far off.

My brother has had a ton of girlfriends over the years but they never lasted more than 2-3 months. Some of the girls he dated were really incredible people and he would quickly tell them that he loved them but then they'd have a fight or she would reveal some habit/trait that he didn't like and that would be it, he'd break up with them. But he was always bringing them home and having them spend a lot of time with our mother. Every single one. Finally he got engaged to a girl he had been seeing for less than 4 months. They were married less than a year after they met. I confess that my husband and I privately took bets as to whether the marriage would last (it didn't).

After the marriage, his (now) ex-wife quickly started isolating him from his family and his friends. They moved internationally about 4 times, racking up a lot of debt and they almost split 3 times in the first year. They decided to have a baby shortly after the last time that they reconciled even though everyone encouraged them to wait until they'd had more time to nurture their own relationship. His ex-wife had a ton of issues with our mother and honestly, they were legitimate complaints. The interesting thing is that I think his wife might also have BPD (or maybe NPD) because she reminds me so much of my mother and I read somewhere that sons of BPD mothers will often pick a BPD partner later in life.

He is now divorced and living an hour away from our mother. And I am so worried about him. He left his wife about two years ago and now they're having a pretty nasty custody dispute. When he left her that time, they almost got back together again but her conditions for doing so involved him having to acknowledge our mother as being emotionally incestuous. At the time, when he told me this, I was mad. I still hadn't recognized/learned of our mother's BPD at that point and so when he named all these things that she did that his (then) wife hated, I defended her. Now I see that his ex-wife was totally spot on (she probably despised our mother doubly because we often dislike people who remind us most of ourselves).

The thing that concerns me most is: although many of his old friends have tried reaching out to him and inviting him out, he never takes them up on it. We have a lot of friends in common and so I've heard their side of it. Most of them feel hurt because they feel like he just dropped them after 10+ years of friendship. He has no friends now. He goes to work, he works out and he hangs out with our mother. That's it. By his own admission they talk every day and "lean on each other quite a bit". Every single time that he has traveled to see his daughter, our mother has gone with him which means that he has not once had to deal with his kid on his own.

He called me yesterday and it was an excruciating phone call. The silences were huge and every topic I threw out got maybe one or two sentences back in response. His ex-wife once claimed that our mother "never asked questions" of other people (it's true) but now I'm seeing my brother do the same thing. I don't see a lot of the emotional deregulation that I would expect for BPD so I don't think he's developed that but... .I guess he's just really, really depressed?

The truth is, my relationship with him has never been very good. We played together as kids but by the time I was 11 we were starting to butt heads all the time (and my mother was solidly in his camp for this) and our conflicts just escalated over the years. But... .I worry about him. A lot. He drives me crazy but he's not a bad person. But I see him isolated and making all these decisions that have really screwed him over. He decided to stop paying his student loans back for a few years and now the interest on them has spiraled to a point where I doubt he will ever be able to pay them back. He's also become a total conspiracy theorist - aliens are working with the 1% to enslave the human race and bring about the New World Order and Abraham Lincoln knew about it and there are glitches in the "source field" that cause things from other dimensions and universes to appear in our own, etc, etc.

I don't know why I'm writing all this other than I need to express my worry somewhere before I go crazy. I don't know what I can do for him but I worry - I worry that he has no friends. I worry that our mother is his only social interaction outside of work and the gym. I worry that he's becoming so incredibly tied up in these conspiracies. I worry because our mother is not in good health and it's likely that these are her last years and once she's gone... .I'm scared for him. He's going to lose the only person he has and if he's this depressed now... .

I was so angry at him for so long but now I'm just... .I guess I feel pity for him. He is so ill-equipped for life that i can't imagine what's going to happen when his only support is gone.

[clljhns]

  K1313,


A lot of what you wrote mirrors my own FOO. My oldest sister is completely enmeshed with our uBPDmom. My sister once told me that she has no identity outside of our mother and doesn't know who she is, nor she think she ever had her own identity. This was painful to hear, and I went with her to T to provide support and encouragement. What ended up happening was my sister invited our mother to the sessions, which did not go well. My sister wanted the relationship with our mother more than she wanted to be her own person. This was very sad to watch, and I was helpless to do anything. I did talk with my sister about her choice and was met with a lot of anger. She felt that I wanted her to choose me over our mother because I was NC with our mother. This was the not the truth, but she was not willing to hear me.

I didn't tell you my story to indicate what will happen between you and your brother, only my way of relating to you and letting you know I understand. Have you talked with your brother about your concerns? If so, was he receptive?

The love we have for our families doesn't end just because they can't behave in healthy ways. We still love them, just not what they do.

(PS. One of my sisters is also into conspiracy theories and aliens. I often think that she leans towards this way of thinking because it makes her feel empowered and gives her purpose for her anger.)

Wishing you all the best. 

[tentoes]

Hi! I read your post with interest because although the "symptoms" are different, many of the dynamics in my family are similar to yours. I have a BPD mom (not diagnosed; my therapist said that's probably what it is. She'd NEVER go to a therapist.)

I can't give you solutions, but I want to say this:

You are never responsible for your brother's choices. Although the heartbreaking reality is that he is not in a place to make healthy choices- there is one important fact: YOU HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

I have many siblings. With the exception of one, they are all in some way enmeshed within the horrible situation of a BPD mom, some of them in self harmful ways that will continue to hold them back from living meaningful lives. And you know what? I pray for them, I am nice to them as much as I am able without feeling unsafe or uncomfortable- and that's it.

In my experience, to talk to them is to put yourself at risk of having everything repeated to your BPD parent. Such is the reality of an unhealthy family- they aren't capable of having healthy, supportive interactions. 

I hope I'm not projecting, and if I am, I trust you to recognize that.

Good luck.

[K1313]

I didn't tell you my story to indicate what will happen between you and your brother, only my way of relating to you and letting you know I understand. Have you talked with your brother about your concerns? If so, was he receptive?

I haven't really tried to discuss things with him. Once, before I had accepted our mother's BPD, he tried to bring it up but I was protective of her. His then-wife (whom I strongly suspect of also having BPD - and I could have sworn that I read somewhere that sons of Borderline mother's often pick Borderline partners) was really huge on trying to demonize our mother and I, being a loyal child, staunchly defended her. Since then I have found out about the BPD and I tried to mention it to him and explain that I finally saw what he had been talking about but... .It was too late. He didn't respond very well because by that time he was back to leaning heavily on our mother.

My other brother also seemed put off by the BPD suggestion. For him it is irrelevant why our mother acts the way she acts whereas, for me, knowing about the BPD helps me to process everything and cut my mother some slack. I mean... .learning about it was really hard but it also helped me to have a vocabulary for understanding everything.

I'm guess my biggest struggles right now are a. learning not to try so hard to take care of/protect everyone else and b. to build up my very, very low self-esteem. Actually, the self-esteem one is probably my single biggest challenge right now.

[clljhns]

  K1313,

a. learning not to try so hard to take care of/protect everyone else and b. to build up my very, very low self-esteem. Actually, the self-esteem one is probably my single biggest challenge right now.

This is unfortunately some of the effects of having a BPD parent. I also felt responsible for my siblings and wanted to help them overcome their  . I had to break the cycle of caretaker so that I could step back and see that they are adults and can make the same choices that I made to get healthy. I learned about co-dependency many years ago, but didn't see how this related to my relationships with my siblings. Compounded by my need to take care of others, was the guilt I felt over not stopping my parents from exiling two of my siblings from the family. So, I was willing to expend a lot of energy trying to make right my parents wrong.

I didn't see the happy ending I hoped for, but what I did see was a healthier me! Not that I don't think about my siblings and wish them all the happiness in the world, but I just am not willing to put my energy into people who want to stay in same unhealthy place. I do check in every year or so, and so far, nothing has changed for them, so I leave it there.

I would suggest you read about co-dependency and boundaries. You can find them in the glossary. I have included the link here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships  and  https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries.

I hope this helps.

Wishing you all the best.

[polly87]

Hi K1313,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about your brother. It is pretty difficult – nearly impossible I guess – to untangle oneself from a BPD parent, or from any other enmeshed/codependent relationship for that matter.

My BIL’s situation is similar to your brother’s in some ways. My BIL is in his late twenties and has no friends except for his colleagues and pupils, and his 3 bandmates among whom is my partner (their mum drives my BIL to the rehearsal even though he has his driver’s licence). When my partner takes him out for a couple of beers, which happens maybe twice a year or something, their mum calls to ask whether he is coming home yet as it's "nearly midnight". He goes on holiday with his parents twice a year. He stays with his parents each and every weekend. His mum fills his fridge and does his laundry.

What is more, they share the same view of the world, or rather, my BIL follows whatever my MIL thinks up. She used to encourage him to work 80 hours a week but she told us the other day that she does not believe this will do him much good in the long run (thank God for that – I hope she will tell *him* about this changed view as well). She provides him with sleeping medication through my FIL’s prescription because she does not think he can take an hour off work to go to the doctor to get his own prescription.

I do not know where enmeshment ends and controlling begins, but you get the point... .

I don't know why I'm writing all this other than I need to express my worry somewhere before I go crazy. I don't know what I can do for him but I worry - I worry that he has no friends. I worry that our mother is his only social interaction outside of work and the gym. I worry that he's becoming so incredibly tied up in these conspiracies. I worry because our mother is not in good health and it's likely that these are her last years and once she's gone... .I'm scared for him. He's going to lose the only person he has and if he's this depressed now... .

I understand your worries. I also understand how hard it is not to interfere... .When I talked with a good friend about my BIL's issues, she said to me: "He is grown up now and he should be able to ask for the help he needs, instead of *you* determining what *his* problems are and you trying to fix his life. He can and should fix his own life, even if it seems like he can’t." The difficult part is to let him figure things out for himself.

The only way to go is to create a safe place where you can talk with your brother about what *he* thinks is wrong with this situation. Do you feel like you can talk with him about creating his own life at all? And if not, can you see how you could try to create a safe place for him to speak frankly? This might take some time...

Wishing you the best.

[NorthernGirl]

Thanks K1313 for sharing your story. There is a lot of similarity to what has happened with my three stepsons. Their mom is uBPD.

The oldest SS24 has learned to have boundaries with his mom. He has always been her All Bad son. No matter how well he does in life (and he does very well), he never gets the praise from his mom he desperately wants. She calls him a bully and says that she divorced DH because he wouldn't punish SS24 for bullying SS22.

SS22 is the enmeshed son. He started drinking at 13 and since has been in five addiction treatment programs. He is showing signs of PD. He recently wrote a long hurtful letter to his dad, clearly having bought all the stories his mom was telling him. DH took the letter to a counsellor to talk about what to do, and the counsellor said he saw signs of BPD in the letter (DH never mentioned anything about his ex-wife's BPD). So either SS22 is so enmeshed the fleas are showing, or he has some BPD traits himself.

SS20 has special needs. He feels intensely loyal to his mom, but she doesn't really know what to do with him. She talks about how hard it is being a mother of a special needs child. When he moved a few hours away to another city, she eventually followed him telling everyone who would listen that he couldn't possibly live without her nearby. He is now moving back (says he is homesick). She believes he is incapable and should be hidden away to keep him out of danger. He is kind and loving, and despite being loyal to his mom, also sees that she does things that aren't right.

Their mom spends huge amounts of time stirring up resentment between them individually and trying to get them to dislike their father and me. She creates a lot of chaos. She has no job, few friends and little to keep her busy -- other than "saving" SS22 and pretending to help SS20. Last year when SS22 was on the streets and his drug use had gotten very bad, she contacted SS24 and told him it was his responsibility to save his brother. She enlisted her mom to call as well. SS24 was under a huge amount of pressure from them both, but after talking with us, he realized it was not his job to save his brother. I'm sure he felt some guilt in saying "no" to his mom, but he also felt some relief. SS24 recently said how uncomfortable he was seeing his mom and SS22 together.

SS24 has learned over time that the boundaries he needs with his mom are the same as he needs with his brother. clljhns has offered up links to some great information on boundaries and co-dependency. Have a read and tell us what you think.

What do you think is within your control when it comes to your brother?

[K1313]

Thanks to everyone who has responded.

In general, I think I need to let him come around to seeing the issues with our mother on his own. I know that, for me, when I was still fairly caught up in it all, suggestions that she might have issues or be behaving poorly would totally anger me. I'd be so focused on defending her that I couldn't see the truth of what others said.

Someone asked what I can control with regard to my brother and I think the answer is... .not a ton. Only stuff on my end. I have to balance compassion for what he's going through against my own learned tendencies to take care of everyone else on an emotional level. I love him, I am here for him but I also can't make him 'see' or 'be' any particular way.

I do hope that, at some point, he and I will have an open conversation about it but... .I had a conversation with my mother today where she said something about who I am/how I react to things that was eye-opening. I see her about once a year and I've realized that she no longer knows who I am and instead she's just making assumptions about me despite not really knowing me anymore and it has made me realize it's very possible she tells him a skewed version of what I say/who I am. Until he and I are spending more time together (currently we live far apart), there's not much I can do via phone/email.

Tangentially: Mercifully, I appear to be getting to a more even place with all of this. There was a fight with her today where I was so proud of myself. I avoided getting drawn down into it and managed to hold my ground but I also didn't freak out after. In the past I would have been upset for days over it but finally I've gotten to a place where I was mildly irked by it but... .I also wasn't surprised by her reaction and I also avoided giving her what she wanted. She kept going silent in a way where I previously would have apologized profusely just so she would speak to me again but this time I didn't take the bait. Go me!

[clljhns]

  K1313,

I have to balance compassion for what he's going through against my own learned tendencies to take care of everyone else on an emotional level. I love him, I am here for him but I also can't make him 'see' or 'be' any particular way.

Well said.

There was a fight with her today where I was so proud of myself. I avoided getting drawn down into it and managed to hold my ground but I also didn't freak out after. In the past I would have been upset for days over it but finally I've gotten to a place where I was mildly irked by it but... .I also wasn't surprised by her reaction and I also avoided giving her what she wanted. She kept going silent in a way where I previously would have apologized profusely just so she would speak to me again but this time I didn't take the bait. Go me!

Good for you! (Round of applause here!) What can you do to continue avoiding the "bait?"

All the best! 

[K1313]

Good for you! (Round of applause here!) What can you do to continue avoiding the "bait?"

Hmm... .that's a good question. She's actually supposed to be coming for a visit in a few weeks and so I've been thinking a lot about this. It's so much easier not to take the bait over the phone than it is when she's sitting across from me making those scary faces. What scary faces? Well when she gets angry or upset her naturally expressive face contorts so violently that it makes me think of some mythological creature or the Veela from Harry Potter.

I'd be open to suggestions or advice on keeping my cool with her face-to-face. She'll be staying in a hotel so that helps. Keeping her occupied with shopping, restaurants etc is my current plan but... .being in public has never kept her from having meltdowns before so... .Eek. I'm actually starting to feel kind of nervous about this.

[clljhns]

  K1313,

mythological creature or the Veela from Harry Potter

Sorry. Had to chuckle when I read this. Brought back memories of my mother's facial contortions. 

being in public has never kept her from having meltdowns before so... .Eek. I'm actually starting to feel kind of nervous about this.

Can relate to this. My uBPDmom has  done the same as well. How did you handle this when it happened? Did you walk away, ignore the behavior, address the behavior, and if so, did any of the methods help to de-escalate mom? What about when you at home with mom? Will you be alone with her, or will there be others present? When mom has waved her BPD banner at your home in the past, how did you handle it? Was there anything that helped to de-escalate the situation?

What do you think would be the best response to mom when she baits? Have you any of the information on communication techniques? I am including link here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

All the best. 

[K1313]

What about when you at home with mom? Will you be alone with her, or will there be others present? When mom has waved her BPD banner at your home in the past, how did you handle it? Was there anything that helped to de-escalate the situation?

What do you think would be the best response to mom when she baits? Have you any of the information on communication techniques? I am including link here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=69272.0.

When my mother has lost it in my home, I've typically not known what to do. My urge is to tell her to leave my home but that would come with such wide reaching problems that I typically just let her rage it out.

I've tried using SET and other communication techniques. I thought it was working well until she told me today that the way I talk to her was "clearly" because of my therapist. God forbid I make a decision on my own.

I'm feeling pretty upset right now actually and should probably start a new thread but... .We just had an argument over the phone that lasted for two hours. She's still mad at me for things I did as a teenager (beginning when I was 12 according to her) and she keeps talking about her "pain" about it. No matter how many times I apologize... .it's never enough. I increasingly feel like I have to choose between my mother (and by extension my enmeshed brother) and my peace of mind. She's still mad/hurt about things she read in my journal from when I was 18. The time my brother slept with the person I had feelings for (despite knowing how I felt) was "none of your business" and so I shouldn't be/have been upset over it and on and on and on.

I thought I was staying pretty calm about all this but then I started writing here and now I can barely see the screen for the tears. Why is it never enough? I don't know what else I can do or how else I can be.

[clljhns]

  K1313,

I am so sorry that your mom won't let go of things that happened so long ago and continues to berate you over them.

What do you think would happen if you didn't continue the conversation? What if you didn't defend yourself?

I think it might be helpful for you to read https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107.0 . This article explains why it is important not to argue. I know that my mom would engage me in conversations like this for many years and we would get into screaming matches over the phone. I finally refused to engage her conversation and set a firm boundary for her. I told her that if she didn't change the conversation to something else, I would hang up the phone. At first, she would scream at me and cry, and I would hang up the phone. I hadn't thought to tell her that I would hang up the phone for her screaming at me. However, after following through with what I had said would happen, she finally learned to change the subject or expect me to hang up. It took a long time of setting this boundary with her, and with delivering the message in a non-emotional manner, before it finally worked.

I would also suggest that you look at setting firm boundaries. I can't remember if you said that you are seeing a T, but I think it would be very helpful to you. These phone conversations are very emotionally draining and not good for you.

Wishing you all the best and looking forward to hearing from you. 

[K1313]

What do you think would happen if you didn't continue the conversation? What if you didn't defend yourself?

I think it might be helpful for you to read https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=106107.0 . This article explains why it is important not to argue. I know that my mom would engage me in conversations like this for many years and we would get into screaming matches over the phone. I finally refused to engage her conversation and set a firm boundary for her. I told her that if she didn't change the conversation to something else, I would hang up the phone. At first, she would scream at me and cry, and I would hang up the phone. I hadn't thought to tell her that I would hang up the phone for her screaming at me. However, after following through with what I had said would happen, she finally learned to change the subject or expect me to hang up. It took a long time of setting this boundary with her, and with delivering the message in a non-emotional manner, before it finally worked.

I would also suggest that you look at setting firm boundaries. I can't remember if you said that you are seeing a T, but I think it would be very helpful to you. These phone conversations are very emotionally draining and not good for you.

Wishing you all the best and looking forward to hearing from you. 

Thanks for your reply and support.

I've been trying to not defend myself and had been doing really well. I don't know how or why but for some reason she managed to push all the right buttons yesterday and I found myself falling back into old patterns. Defending, explaining, getting upset etc. It's so hard not to defend yourself when someone is attacking you - instinct just takes over.

I am seeing a cognitive-behavioral therapist and I'm actually having an emergency session with him tomorrow. I'm also going to see him while my mother is here this coming week. I had avoided telling my mother I was in therapy for a long time because I was scared of what she would do with that knowledge. Yesterday, during our fight, she told me that she knew I had been seeing a therapist because the way I spoke to her lately was clearly influenced by an outside source (she added that she had assumed this was a certain friend of mine - whom she dislikes - until she heard about the therapist). As if I couldn't possibly change my own behavior of my own accord.

I've reached a point where I feel that I have to make a choice: I can either keep trying to have some relationship with her in spite of the immense psychological damage it is doing to me or I have to disconnect. I've been wresting with the possibility of going NC for about 6 or 7 months now and I hesitate because a. I fear that this will somehow make me a "bad" daughter b. i'm scared as to how she'll react and what she will do and c. part of me still thinks that I can find a way to adjust my own expectations and behavior such that we can have some type of relationship. d. I pity her. I know she has a mental illness and really can't see her own behavior or even change it and that makes it harder for me to just let go. If she was just really mean or difficult without an underlying condition, it would be easier to disconnect.

At present, my plan is as follows: I am going to be very careful this weekend during her visit. When she starts to have a typical response, I'm going to make it into a sort of internal game "Oh she's yelling about X again? How interesting." I'm also going to be firm about my boundaries. There are three or four topics I consider non-starters. I have never walked out on my mother before but my plan is to keep cash on hand (rather than a debit card) and if, while we're out at dinner or lunch, she starts going down those paths after I've asked her to stop, I will put money on the table to cover my share and leave. I will make sure that we both take each of our cars everywhere so that neither is at the mercy of the other for transportation.

Then, once she goes back home... .That's it. I believe that as hard as the decision is and as much pain as I feel about it... .I will not see her again. I will talk to her occasionally over the phone and I will email her periodically but I will not ever engage her in anything more than the most superficial of interactions. My mother is in poor health and I imagine that making this decision means I am agreeing that this is the last time I see her before she dies.

At the end of the day, I've tried everything I can to make this into a relationship that I can work with but it just takes and takes and hurts and hurts. I wish so deeply for her to be happy and at peace but the behavior she exhibits towards me is behavior I would not condone in anyone else in my life so why do I let her get away with it? There have been a lot of signs in my life that I am coming up on having to make a very hard decision. I believe that this is that hard decision. I just hope I can do what I know I need to do. Words are easy. Actions... .Oh boy... .