Some help understanding a BPD ex romantic attempted partner ~

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Background: Girl has BPD, has been to a psychiatrist before as he had a rage fit and broke another person's nose over an imagined slight, pretty much stopping her career.

Girl went out on a date with me (she initiated it as drinks but I told her this was a date and she agreed it was) - no kiss involved but we admit mutual romantic interest, although I am certain she wanted the kiss but the way she went about it really killed the vibe as it put a lot of pressure on it and took the spontaneity out of it. The weekend after we hung out, and she asked if we could extend the hang out to the rest of the day we - and we did (hung out for a total of 8 hours). Then she blew me off twice, first time with no counter offer & second time asking for a 2 months rain check so assumed she wasn't interested.

Here is where I need help. 5 months later, every time I've seen her after this, she finds her way into any conversation I am having, whether its with a guy or girl, she'll answer my questions indirectly, she'll attempt to start conversation with me - either by trying to tell a joke or by asking me questions about myself - where I've been, how is my job, what have I been doing, where I've been travelling, what times the classes I'll be taking (we go to university together), telling me which classes and times she'll be taking, singling me out in group settings, and gets extremely territorial as far as physical proximity and other women being around me - she's actively and pretty aggressively stopped another girl from sitting next to me by coming up at the very last second before the girl sat down next to me and sitting in her seat. She'll tell me personal details about her family, explain where she's been, tell me about her life without me asking.

Anyway, we end up agreeing to go a second date and the following things happened:

Talking about spanking me with a ping pong paddle and me spanking her with one.

Asking if I am seeing anyone

Telling me she wants this weekend to be fun AND ":)oes she have to spell it out for me - she's sexually frustrated and she wants to have sex all day this weekend" (I told her okay well then let's do it, let's go and have sex nonstop).

During all this she keeps she has a fear of attachment and she's worried she'll become attached as she's dealing with all these changes in her life right now, I told her that's kind of a defeatist attitude to have if she's just going to knock away all potential do to fear. We haven't done anything yet, and should always just see how things go.

Now as all this is happening my hand is going up and down her thighs, back, stomach, side of chest etc. and she never rebuffed the gestures in any way shape or form.

She ends up freaking out pretty badly because of the possibility of attachment I suppose, because she says she doesn't know how to deal with this etc and I can notice she's really stressed. I take her hand and say look, take a step back and let's leave this crowded bar and at least talk, she squeezes my hand back and says okay, smiling at me. I kiss her on the cheek while we're holding hands and we leave.

We then leave the place, and she keeps telling me this why people call her crazy and what not, so I try to calm her down and ask how often and badly do the anxiety attacks come? She freaks out a bit more and I try to calm her down again. A soon as I we leave the bar she denies any feelings between us and does the standard I'll abandon you before you abandon me thing. I kept trying to calm her down and said, look I can't keep doing these kind of push-pull things, and based on what you said and what's happened in the restaurant it's obvious we are interested in each other. She then tells me that's not true at all and we're just friends and all we'll ever be. At that point I said okay, fine well I don't play games or like wasting time on situations like this and walked away.

For the next month she exhibits the following behavior:

- gives me the silent treatment

- hangs out at the gym we go to all day for a week straight, not working out or anything... .just sitting there, watching me and reading a book.

- flirting with guys in front of me, which I just ignored.

- constantly walking past me, near me, etc.

- moves to the new city I am moving to (she states it was study abroad, but she was already confirmed to be moving to an entirely different continent months before that, so this came out of the blue)

- bad mouths me to all our mutual friends.

Fast forward to now:

- Frequently showing up at places where I'll be for extended periods.

- Showcasing new boyfriend.

- Trying to get my attention passively.

What exactly am I supposed to think of all this? I mean one or two of these things could be coincidence, but when she's suddenly living in the city she knows I'll be living in, hanging out in the place she'll know I'll be for extended periods of time, passively attention seeking, mentioning she told her family about me (this was before we even went on the first date), etc. it makes me think she's bordering on obsessive/stalkerish. Is this normal BPD behavior?

[gttc]

Background: Girl has BPD, has been to a psychiatrist before as he had a rage fit and broke another person's nose over an imagined slight, pretty much stopping her career.

Girl went out on a date with me (she initiated it as drinks but I told her this was a date and she agreed it was) - no kiss involved but we admit mutual romantic interest, although I am certain she wanted the kiss but the way she went about it really killed the vibe as it put a lot of pressure on it and took the spontaneity out of it. The weekend after we hung out, and she asked if we could extend the hang out to the rest of the day we - and we did (hung out for a total of 8 hours). Then she blew me off twice, first time with no counter offer & second time asking for a 2 months rain check so assumed she wasn't interested.

Here is where I need help. 5 months later, every time I've seen her after this, she finds her way into any conversation I am having, whether its with a guy or girl, she'll answer my questions indirectly, she'll attempt to start conversation with me - either by trying to tell a joke or by asking me questions about myself - where I've been, how is my job, what have I been doing, where I've been travelling, what times the classes I'll be taking (we go to university together), telling me which classes and times she'll be taking, singling me out in group settings, and gets extremely territorial as far as physical proximity and other women being around me - she's actively and pretty aggressively stopped another girl from sitting next to me by coming up at the very last second before the girl sat down next to me and sitting in her seat. She'll tell me personal details about her family, explain where she's been, tell me about her life without me asking.

Anyway, we end up agreeing to go a second date and the following things happened:

Talking about spanking me with a ping pong paddle and me spanking her with one.

Asking if I am seeing anyone

Telling me she wants this weekend to be fun AND ":)oes she have to spell it out for me - she's sexually frustrated and she wants to have sex all day this weekend" (I told her okay well then let's do it, let's go and have sex nonstop).

During all this she keeps she has a fear of attachment and she's worried she'll become attached as she's dealing with all these changes in her life right now, I told her that's kind of a defeatist attitude to have if she's just going to knock away all potential do to fear. We haven't done anything yet, and should always just see how things go.

Now as all this is happening my hand is going up and down her thighs, back, stomach, side of chest etc. and she never rebuffed the gestures in any way shape or form.

She ends up freaking out pretty badly because of the possibility of attachment I suppose, because she says she doesn't know how to deal with this etc and I can notice she's really stressed. I take her hand and say look, take a step back and let's leave this crowded bar and at least talk, she squeezes my hand back and says okay, smiling at me. I kiss her on the cheek while we're holding hands and we leave.

We then leave the place, and she keeps telling me this why people call her crazy and what not, so I try to calm her down and ask how often and badly do the anxiety attacks come? She freaks out a bit more and I try to calm her down again. A soon as I we leave the bar she denies any feelings between us and does the standard I'll abandon you before you abandon me thing. I kept trying to calm her down and said, look I can't keep doing these kind of push-pull things, and based on what you said and what's happened in the restaurant it's obvious we are interested in each other. She then tells me that's not true at all and we're just friends and all we'll ever be. At that point I said okay, fine well I don't play games or like wasting time on situations like this and walked away.

For the next month she exhibits the following behavior:

- gives me the silent treatment

- hangs out at the gym we go to all day for a week straight, not working out or anything... .just sitting there, watching me and reading a book.

- flirting with guys in front of me, which I just ignored.

- constantly walking past me, near me, etc.

- moves to the new city I am moving to (she states it was study abroad, but she was already confirmed to be moving to an entirely different continent months before that, so this came out of the blue)

- bad mouths me to all our mutual friends.

Fast forward to now:

- Frequently showing up at places where I'll be for extended periods.

- Showcasing new boyfriend.

- Trying to get my attention passively.

What exactly am I supposed to think of all this? I mean one or two of these things could be coincidence, but when she's suddenly living in the city she knows I'll be living in, hanging out in the place she'll know I'll be for extended periods of time, passively attention seeking, mentioning she told her family about me (this was before we even went on the first date), etc. it makes me think she's bordering on obsessive/stalkerish. Is this normal BPD behavior?

[Mike-X]

Thanks for posting your story. Welcome to the boards.

I am sorry for all that you have been through with this person. My read on this is that it has been a confusing experience for you, to say the least.

Can you help me to better understand your question:

Are you asking whether the relationship highlights in your post indicate possible BPD or some other PD, and are you seeking validation as to whether you were right to end things and walk away?

Are you asking whether you should be concerned about stalking and your safety and about whether you should take and what possible steps you can take to stop her from continuing to appear in your life?

[Reforming]

Hi gttc

Welcome to BPD Family and thanks for posting

"Background: Girl has BPD, has been to a psychiatrist before as she had a rage fit and broke another person's nose over an imagined slight, pretty much stopping her career."

I'm not an expert but a diagnosis of BPD and a violent episode are pretty strong indicators that this girl is seriously troubled. BPD is a very serious personality disorder that can cause the sufferer and those they're intimate with a lot of pain. I'm not sure how much you know about the disorder, but it's worth following these links to find out a little more.

What is BPD

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63511.0

"Girl went out on a date with me (she initiated it as drinks but I told her this was a date and she agreed it was) - no kiss involved but we admit mutual romantic interest, although I am certain she wanted the kiss but the way she went about it really killed the vibe as it put a lot of pressure on it and took the spontaneity out of it. The weekend after we hung out, and she asked if we could extend the hang out to the rest of the day we - and we did (hung out for a total of 8 hours). Then she blew me off twice, first time with no counter offer & second time asking for a 2 months rain check so assumed she wasn't interested."

This push pull behaviour is very consistent with BPD and can be very confusing and difficult to deal with.

"Here is where I need help. 5 months later, every time I've seen her after this, she finds her way into any conversation I am having, whether its with a guy or girl, she'll answer my questions indirectly, she'll attempt to start conversation with me - either by trying to tell a joke or by asking me questions about myself - where I've been, how is my job, what have I been doing, where I've been travelling, what times the classes I'll be taking (we go to university together), telling me which classes and times she'll be taking, singling me out in group settings, and gets extremely territorial as far as physical proximity and other women being around me - she's actively and pretty aggressively stopped another girl from sitting next to me by coming up at the very last second before the girl sat down next to me and sitting in her seat. She'll tell me personal details about her family, explain where she's been, tell me about her life without me asking."

Rushed or forced intimacy is another hallmark of BPD behaviour and it can feel very overwhelming. How do you feel about her behaviour?

"Anyway, we end up agreeing to go a second date and the following things happened:

Talking about spanking me with a ping pong paddle and me spanking her with one.

Asking if I am seeing anyone

Telling me she wants this weekend to be fun AND ":)oes she have to spell it out for me - she's sexually frustrated and she wants to have sex all day this weekend" (I told her okay well then let's do it, let's go and have sex nonstop).

During all this she keeps she has a fear of attachment and she's worried she'll become attached as she's dealing with all these changes in her life right now, I told her that's kind of a defeatist attitude to have if she's just going to knock away all potential do to fear. We haven't done anything yet, and should always just see how things go"

BPD sufferers are frequently overwhelmed by a terrible fear of abandonment. Though they often seek attachment, but often find it terrifying because they fear that they will be abandoned or that the attachment will overwhelm them. Do you think she's trying to tell you this?

As someone diagnosed with BPD she is likely to be very vulnerable and unstable. It can be enormously challenging and many members have struggled to maintain healthy and stable relationships with a BPD sufferer.

"We then leave the place, and she keeps telling me this why people call her crazy and what not, so I try to calm her down and ask how often and badly do the anxiety attacks come? She freaks out a bit more and I try to calm her down again. A soon as I we leave the bar she denies any feelings between us and does the standard I'll abandon you before you abandon me thing. I kept trying to calm her down and said, look I can't keep doing these kind of push-pull things, and based on what you said and what's happened in the restaurant it's obvious we are interested in each other. She then tells me that's not true at all and we're just friends and all we'll ever be. At that point I said okay, fine well I don't play games or like wasting time on situations like this and walked away."

This must have been very difficult for your, but it sounds like you chose the healthy course of action. Well done

"For the next month she exhibits the following behavior:

- gives me the silent treatment

- hangs out at the gym we go to all day for a week straight, not working out or anything... .just sitting there, watching me and reading a book.

- flirting with guys in front of me, which I just ignored.

- constantly walking past me, near me, etc.

- moves to the new city I am moving to (she states it was study abroad, but she was already confirmed to be moving to an entirely different continent months before that, so this came out of the blue)

- bad mouths me to all our mutual friends.

Fast forward to now:

- Frequently showing up at places where I'll be for extended periods.

- Showcasing new boyfriend.

- Trying to get my attention passively.

What exactly am I supposed to think of all this? I mean one or two of these things could be coincidence, but when she's suddenly living in the city she knows I'll be living in, hanging out in the place she'll know I'll be for extended periods of time, passively attention seeking, mentioning she told her family about me (this was before we even went on the first date), etc. it makes me think she's bordering on obsessive/stalkerish. Is this normal BPD behaviour?"

The short answer is yes and considering that she's already been diagnosed it's important to accept that her behaviour is very likely driven by her disorder. It's hard to believe, but it's not about you though it can certainly feel like it is.

Experiencing a relationship with disordered person can be hugely traumatic, upsetting and confusing. How are you feeling at the moment?

Reforming

[gttc]

Thanks for posting your story. Welcome to the boards.

I am sorry for all that you have been through with this person. My read on this is that it has been a confusing experience for you, to say the least.

Can you help me to better understand your question:

Are you asking whether the relationship highlights in your post indicate possible BPD or some other PD, and are you seeking validation as to whether you were right to end things and walk away?

Are you asking whether you should be concerned about stalking and your safety and about whether you should take and what possible steps you can take to stop her from continuing to appear in your life?

Hey Mike-X and thanks for the welcome

Basically I am wondering if I was right in walking away, should I be concerned that this is stalking and how to best get all this to stop. I've been NC for months (almost half a year) but she keeps coming back (not by engaging communication but showing up at places where I am) roughly every 4 to months coupled with that as far I can tell it SEEMS like she has intentionally made the move to the city I'll be in. Furthermore, I know she has a PD - I assume BPD given a few things she mentioned and that she herself has admitted that she acknowledges she's crazy as have others in her past apparently. There was brief mention that made it sound like had been sexually abused as a child, but the things she said about herself:

- She feels like a robot, with no empathy or feelings towards others.

- She's going to stab people in the back at any chance she gets

- She's very black or white with regards to people (splitting them)

- She's had to go to psychiatrist in the past to help her, but she stopped and doesn't take medication of any sort

- She's afraid of commitment and abandonment

- She excepted me to "catch" her before she was supposed to move to an entirely different continent (although as I said she moved to the city I am moving to)

- She's constantly employed jealousy/triangulation methods to attempt to get a reaction out of me (and I did call her out on this, saying she's looking for a reaction which she won't get)

- She has uncontrollable rage

- She experiences constant stages of emptiness.

Furthermore, she seems to follow the idealization (before we even dated - she was telling her family members about me, and how I'll be meeting all her friends, future planning of things involving the just the two of us), devaluation (everything I did was unworthy - even down to my own body weight, because apparently I should weigh more), split cycle (I don't want you and I am too busy to see you, followed by huge attempts to get my attention again) quite often (at least certainly with me)

Really I just can't make heads or tails of all this.

Even more awkward is that my replacement... .looks exactly like me. Scarily so, that even my friends commented about how creepy that is, and some thought it was actually me (as in I was the replacement).

I just want to understand what the point of all this is, I can honestly say she terrifies me. It's gotten so bad that I am actively avoiding her, and making changes to my life just to ensure I don't run into her!

[gttc]

Hi gttc

Welcome to BPD Family and thanks for posting

"Background: Girl has BPD, has been to a psychiatrist before as she had a rage fit and broke another person's nose over an imagined slight, pretty much stopping her career."

I'm not an expert but a diagnosis of BPD and a violent episode are pretty strong indicators that this girl is seriously troubled. BPD is a very serious personality disorder that can cause the sufferer and those they're intimate with a lot of pain. I'm not sure how much you know about the disorder, but it's worth following these links to find out a little more.

What is BPD

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=63511.0

"Girl went out on a date with me (she initiated it as drinks but I told her this was a date and she agreed it was) - no kiss involved but we admit mutual romantic interest, although I am certain she wanted the kiss but the way she went about it really killed the vibe as it put a lot of pressure on it and took the spontaneity out of it. The weekend after we hung out, and she asked if we could extend the hang out to the rest of the day we - and we did (hung out for a total of 8 hours). Then she blew me off twice, first time with no counter offer & second time asking for a 2 months rain check so assumed she wasn't interested."

This push pull behaviour is very consistent with BPD and can be very confusing and difficult to deal with.

"Here is where I need help. 5 months later, every time I've seen her after this, she finds her way into any conversation I am having, whether its with a guy or girl, she'll answer my questions indirectly, she'll attempt to start conversation with me - either by trying to tell a joke or by asking me questions about myself - where I've been, how is my job, what have I been doing, where I've been travelling, what times the classes I'll be taking (we go to university together), telling me which classes and times she'll be taking, singling me out in group settings, and gets extremely territorial as far as physical proximity and other women being around me - she's actively and pretty aggressively stopped another girl from sitting next to me by coming up at the very last second before the girl sat down next to me and sitting in her seat. She'll tell me personal details about her family, explain where she's been, tell me about her life without me asking."

Rushed or forced intimacy is another hallmark of BPD behaviour and it can feel very overwhelming. How do you feel about her behaviour?

"Anyway, we end up agreeing to go a second date and the following things happened:

Talking about spanking me with a ping pong paddle and me spanking her with one.

Asking if I am seeing anyone

Telling me she wants this weekend to be fun AND ":)oes she have to spell it out for me - she's sexually frustrated and she wants to have sex all day this weekend" (I told her okay well then let's do it, let's go and have sex nonstop).

During all this she keeps she has a fear of attachment and she's worried she'll become attached as she's dealing with all these changes in her life right now, I told her that's kind of a defeatist attitude to have if she's just going to knock away all potential do to fear. We haven't done anything yet, and should always just see how things go"

BPD sufferers are frequently overwhelmed by a terrible fear of abandonment. Though they often seek attachment, but often find it terrifying because they fear that they will be abandoned or that the attachment will overwhelm them. Do you think she's trying to tell you this?

As someone diagnosed with BPD she is likely to be very vulnerable and unstable. Do you feel that you would be able to cope with this?

It can be enormously challenging and many members have struggled to maintain healthy and stable relationship with a BPD partner.

"We then leave the place, and she keeps telling me this why people call her crazy and what not, so I try to calm her down and ask how often and badly do the anxiety attacks come? She freaks out a bit more and I try to calm her down again. A soon as I we leave the bar she denies any feelings between us and does the standard I'll abandon you before you abandon me thing. I kept trying to calm her down and said, look I can't keep doing these kind of push-pull things, and based on what you said and what's happened in the restaurant it's obvious we are interested in each other. She then tells me that's not true at all and we're just friends and all we'll ever be. At that point I said okay, fine well I don't play games or like wasting time on situations like this and walked away."

This must have been very difficult for your, but it sounds like you chose the healthy course of action. Well done

"For the next month she exhibits the following behavior:

- gives me the silent treatment

- hangs out at the gym we go to all day for a week straight, not working out or anything... .just sitting there, watching me and reading a book.

- flirting with guys in front of me, which I just ignored.

- constantly walking past me, near me, etc.

- moves to the new city I am moving to (she states it was study abroad, but she was already confirmed to be moving to an entirely different continent months before that, so this came out of the blue)

- bad mouths me to all our mutual friends.

Fast forward to now:

- Frequently showing up at places where I'll be for extended periods.

- Showcasing new boyfriend.

- Trying to get my attention passively.

What exactly am I supposed to think of all this? I mean one or two of these things could be coincidence, but when she's suddenly living in the city she knows I'll be living in, hanging out in the place she'll know I'll be for extended periods of time, passively attention seeking, mentioning she told her family about me (this was before we even went on the first date), etc. it makes me think she's bordering on obsessive/stalkerish. Is this normal BPD behaviour?"

The short answer is yes and considering that she's already been diagnosed it's important to accept that her behaviour is very likely driven by her disorder. It's hard to believe, but it's not about you though it can certainly feel like it is.

Experiencing a relationship with disordered person can be hugely traumatic, upsetting and confusing. How are you feeling at the moment?

Reforming

Thanks for this great insight Reforming. So the question is how do I break away from all this. I've been NC for months now, I've re-arranged my life so as to ensure that I don't run into her. I mean everything she does, even when I am being avoidant of her leads to even further acts of awkward behavior. As I told Mike-X these are the additional bits of information:

she keeps coming back (not by engaging communication but showing up at places where I am) roughly every 4 to months coupled with that as far I can tell it SEEMS like she has intentionally made the move to the city I'll be in. Furthermore, I know she has a PD - I assume BPD given a few things she mentioned and that she herself has admitted that she acknowledges she's crazy as have others in her past apparently. There was brief mention that made it sound like had been sexually abused as a child, but the things she said about herself:

- She feels like a robot, with no empathy or feelings towards others.

- She's going to stab people in the back at any chance she gets

- She's very black or white with regards to people (splitting them)

- She's had to go to psychiatrist in the past to help her, but she stopped and doesn't take medication of any sort

- She's afraid of commitment and abandonment

- She excepted me to "catch" her before she was supposed to move to an entirely different continent (although as I said she moved to the city I am moving to)

- She's constantly employed jealousy/triangulation methods to attempt to get a reaction out of me (and I did call her out on this, saying she's looking for a reaction which she won't get)

- She has uncontrollable rage

- She experiences constant stages of emptiness.

Furthermore, she seems to follow the idealization (before we even dated - she was telling her family members about me, and how I'll be meeting all her friends, future planning of things involving the just the two of us), devaluation (everything I did was unworthy - even down to my own body weight, because apparently I should weigh more), split cycle (I don't want you and I am too busy to see you, followed by huge attempts to get my attention again) quite often (at least certainly with me)

Really I just can't make heads or tails of all this.

Even more awkward is that my replacement... .looks exactly like me. Scarily so, that even my friends commented about how creepy that is, and some thought it was actually me (as in I was the replacement).

I just want to understand what the point of all this is, I can honestly say she terrifies me. It's gotten so bad that I am actively avoiding her, and making changes to my life just to ensure I don't run into her!

[Reforming]

I'm sorry that things are so difficult right now

I think understanding about the disorder, making sense of behaviour that feels very confusing and illogical really helped me to process and detach.

I don't know if stalking is classic BPD behavioural trait, but I imagine its very difficult to handle

From what you've said, and I know that Mike's already touched on this, the other question is what is the best way to respond to her current behaviour?

Do you think she accepts that you don't want to have a relationship with her?

Reforming

[gttc]

I'm sorry that things are so difficult right now

I think understanding about the disorder, making sense of behaviour that feels very confusing and illogical really helped me to process and detach.

I don't know if stalking is classic BPD behavioural trait, but I imagine its very difficult to handle

From what you've said, and I know that Mike's already touched on this, the other question is what is the best way to respond to her current behaviour?

Do you think she accepts that you don't want to have a relationship with her?

Reforming

Well ya I would like to know how to best respond to this. I've tried multiple things:

- After I walked away, when we next saw each other I admit that I didn't like the fact that I walked away but I simply don't play games. Ever. Nor will I ever. (she had a violent verbal outrage at this in front of two of our friends - so I gracefully walked away).

- Later on I sent her a text saying, look I don't get what the point of that aggression was. You were the one that was okay with me holding your hands, kissing you, and coupled with your previous behavior as well as saying you wanted to have sex all day and be spanked by a ping pong paddle, etc. would indicate at least sexual interest but when you also made comments about how you've already told your family about me and insisted I would be meeting your best friends then it indicates that it leans to more than just sex. I've already said I don't like how I handled a potion of the situation. So if you want to talk, fine let's talk, if you don't want to talk that's fine too. The main point still stands clear, I don't play games or do mixed signals or push/pull behavior.

She then defriended me on Facebook, removed any common items we were on via Facebook and then would hangout at where we met for weeks, for 10+ hours at a time (this is at a gym... .where she just sat there reading a book, flirting with other guys in front of me, and here's the kicker... .adding any person I talked to on Facebook, even though she was leaving the country in a few days).

Even on her last few days in the city, she would keep bumping into me but gave me the silent treatment (this is outside of the gym... .just in a shopping mall). I tried to be nice on her last day in the city, where she was hanging out at the gym AGAIN all day, and said "Hey I just wanted to say best of luck on the move and I hope everything works out well". She gave me the silent treatment again, so I let it be.

Since then, she's going to the gym she knows I go to in the new city, so I am terrified to even go there now because I feel like she'll do something completely irrational!

Note: Even on the date that she escalated to sex but then backed out, she constantly tried to make me jealous by saying, well these guys are chasing me but they're just little boys, and well I can always offer sex to a mutual friend of ours, etc. Followed by asking me if I am single or is there anyone special in my life, etc.

[livednlearned]

Hi gttc,

It's hard to explain how someone that appears physically and mentally able could be so emotionally ill -- we aren't a society that seems to understand emotions very well. In fact, sometimes it seems we go out of our way to pretend emotions don't exist. So meeting and experiencing someone with BPD opens a whole new aspect of human experience that many of us take for granted, like being able to regulate how we feel.

I can understand why you want to make sense of this woman's behavior. It took me years of reading to understand BPD, and after a 10 year marriage to someone with the disorder, I'm only beginning to make sense of it.

People with BPD have extreme abandonment fears, and intense rejection sensitivity. Like everyone else, though, they also have an intense desire to feel intimacy. Their feelings are "labile," and highly volatile, and they lack a stable sense of self. The first sentence you wrote that she broke someone's nose over a perceived slight. This is the "feelings equals facts" aspect of BPD, compounded with no skills to regulate how she feels. She felt threatened, therefore she must be threatened.

In that sense, you may want to treat her with extreme caution. Past history is a good predictor of future behavior. This doesn't mean that she will attack you, just that it's good to be extra careful. What you've described may or may not warrant a protection order. Depending on where you live, it can be easy to get them. But more importantly, if you file for one, you could trigger her to act out even more. People with BPD have a problem with impulse control, and they tend to ignore court orders.

The other thing to be aware of is that she could file a false allegation against you. Keep receipts in a folder. Maybe a calendar where you keep track of what you do on any given day. Some of the guys here have been on the receiving end of a false allegation, and in response, they record any interaction with their ex. There are one-party and two-party consent laws depending on where you live. Even if you are in a two-party consent state, it may be a wise precaution to record any incident where she approaches you. At the very least, you could have police review the tape to determine whether she is telling the truth.

In terms of the psychology of interacting with her, make yourself as boring as possible. No messages, no reactions, nothing. When you feel your personal safety is threatened, things are less about communication skills, and more about setting boundaries. Minimizing contact, even if she continues to show up places, is important. She is a deeply troubled woman with a lot of issues, and has to seek help on her own. You aren't in a position to give her what she needs (in case you have a white knight tendency). It's best to turtle up and avoid engaging with her so she loses interest and moves on.

I know this all sounds intense and maybe unsettling. That's because she does not behave and respond in ways we equate with stability and safety and security. Your instincts are telling you something, and it's important to pay attention to them. If you're inclined to read more about those instincts, read Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Fear. He discusses stalking in that book, and while the book can be dark, human behavior can be dark, and paying attention to your instincts is how you stay safe. Too often we discount those feelings, only to find ourselves in a worse position.

There are many people here on these boards who would've given their left leg to help someone with BPD. It's gutting to bear witness to the self-loathing and turbulent emotions that make their lives insufferable. It's truly heart-breaking, and yet there is very little any of us can do until the person with BPD commits to intensive long-term therapy. Until then, it's a game of wait and see, hoping that they manage to function and keep themselves safe.

[Turkish]

Hi gttc,

First, what lnl said recommending Gavin de Becker,.

I read that book years before I met my uBPDx. It was given to me by a friend who was divorced from a likely NPD ex husband. If I could sum it up: trust your gut instincts. When people don't, that's when bad things may happen.

The advice about being boring is good. Though you're not technically in a relationship with this woman, Joe Carver's advice is helpful in setting boundaries by detaching and not engaging in the drama. Take a look:

Article 10: Leaving a Partner with Borderline Personality Disorder

Turkish

[catnap]

Gavin De Becker  Mosaic Threat Assessment  https://www.mosaicmethod.com/  A free assessment of your danger/threat level that only requires you fill out a multiple choice questionnaire and provide an email address to get the results.

Facebook can be an issue if she is gathering information on your activities and she can monitor your friends FB as well for clues (possibly why she is friending new people you friend) about you.  It may take more than setting your privacy settings on your own FB to shut down the information gathering.  

In that sense, you may want to treat her with extreme caution. Past history is a good predictor of future behavior. This doesn't mean that she will attack you, just that it's good to be extra careful. What you've described may or may not warrant a protection order. Depending on where you live, it can be easy to get them. But more importantly, if you file for one, you could trigger her to act out even more. People with BPD have a problem with impulse control, and they tend to ignore court orders.

~livedandlearned

If you get to the point where you think a protection order is something you need--do talk to the local police to let them know your situation.  

[ForeverDad]

Really I just can't make heads or tails of all this... .I just want to understand what the point of all this is... .

This is mental illness.  By definition it won't make sense.  Yes, it can be defined, described, written up in textbooks, taught in Psych 101, certain behaviors predicted, but it still won't make sense.  Accept that.

She is a deeply troubled woman with a lot of issues, and has to seek help on her own. You aren't in a position to give her what she needs (in case you have a white knight tendency). It's best to turtle up and avoid engaging with her so she loses interest and moves on.

I know this all sounds intense and maybe unsettling. That's because she does not behave and respond in ways we equate with stability and safety and security. Your instincts are telling you something, and it's important to pay attention to them. If you're inclined to read more about those instincts, read Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Fear... .paying attention to your instincts is how you stay safe. Too often we discount those feelings, only to find ourselves in a worse position.

It's truly heart-breaking, and yet there is very little any of us can do until the person with BPD commits to intensive long-term therapy. Until then, it's a game of wait and see, hoping that they manage to function and keep themselves safe.

This is emotional dysregulation, and-and-down extremes like a roller coaster, thrilling a first, sickening after a while.  Due to her being focused on her unbalanced emotional state, her moods, her feelings, her perceptions, accept that you can't fix her, you can't save her.  Especially: YOU can't fix or save her.  Why?  Due to your past relationship, as off-and-on as it was, she can't listen to you because the emotional baggage gets in the way.  To the contrary, you can trigger her.  That's why the best success is with a trained experienced professional.  The therapists keep emotionally neutral and even then it is still a tough task and many BPD patients stop trying, as she has done thus far.

She has ruined her career?  That so sad.  But stay objective, don't let her ruin your career or your life.  As was already written, treat her with extreme caution.  Distance is a real protection.

[gttc]

Hi gttc,

It's hard to explain how someone that appears physically and mentally able could be so emotionally ill -- we aren't a society that seems to understand emotions very well. In fact, sometimes it seems we go out of our way to pretend emotions don't exist. So meeting and experiencing someone with BPD opens a whole new aspect of human experience that many of us take for granted, like being able to regulate how we feel.

I can understand why you want to make sense of this woman's behavior. It took me years of reading to understand BPD, and after a 10 year marriage to someone with the disorder, I'm only beginning to make sense of it.

People with BPD have extreme abandonment fears, and intense rejection sensitivity. Like everyone else, though, they also have an intense desire to feel intimacy. Their feelings are "labile," and highly volatile, and they lack a stable sense of self. The first sentence you wrote that she broke someone's nose over a perceived slight. This is the "feelings equals facts" aspect of BPD, compounded with no skills to regulate how she feels. She felt threatened, therefore she must be threatened.

In that sense, you may want to treat her with extreme caution. Past history is a good predictor of future behavior. This doesn't mean that she will attack you, just that it's good to be extra careful. What you've described may or may not warrant a protection order. Depending on where you live, it can be easy to get them. But more importantly, if you file for one, you could trigger her to act out even more. People with BPD have a problem with impulse control, and they tend to ignore court orders.

The other thing to be aware of is that she could file a false allegation against you. Keep receipts in a folder. Maybe a calendar where you keep track of what you do on any given day. Some of the guys here have been on the receiving end of a false allegation, and in response, they record any interaction with their ex. There are one-party and two-party consent laws depending on where you live. Even if you are in a two-party consent state, it may be a wise precaution to record any incident where she approaches you. At the very least, you could have police review the tape to determine whether she is telling the truth.

In terms of the psychology of interacting with her, make yourself as boring as possible. No messages, no reactions, nothing. When you feel your personal safety is threatened, things are less about communication skills, and more about setting boundaries. Minimizing contact, even if she continues to show up places, is important. She is a deeply troubled woman with a lot of issues, and has to seek help on her own. You aren't in a position to give her what she needs (in case you have a white knight tendency). It's best to turtle up and avoid engaging with her so she loses interest and moves on.

I know this all sounds intense and maybe unsettling. That's because she does not behave and respond in ways we equate with stability and safety and security. Your instincts are telling you something, and it's important to pay attention to them. If you're inclined to read more about those instincts, read Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Fear. He discusses stalking in that book, and while the book can be dark, human behavior can be dark, and paying attention to your instincts is how you stay safe. Too often we discount those feelings, only to find ourselves in a worse position.

There are many people here on these boards who would've given their left leg to help someone with BPD. It's gutting to bear witness to the self-loathing and turbulent emotions that make their lives insufferable. It's truly heart-breaking, and yet there is very little any of us can do until the person with BPD commits to intensive long-term therapy. Until then, it's a game of wait and see, hoping that they manage to function and keep themselves safe.

Well I have thought about this, and am currently asking a lawyer if should at least put a report with the police about her behavior. Additionally, even a friend of mine noticed that she was hanging out at the place we met (gym) for extended durations, around the time frame she absolutely knows I always come in, and that most of the time she would just be sitting there watching who walked in the door anxiously without any interaction with anyone else at all except for one coach (whom she had tried to use to evoke jealousy in me on our last outing by saying she could get him to do whatever she wanted by offering him sex - despite the fact I knew he had a boyfriend and their relationship was platonic, so I shrugged it off and made a joke out of it). So I'll see what the lawyer says about all this, just so I have my bases covered.

Additionally, to add to all this it's not like this meeting could be an accident, since she lives in a different city/country (the one I am moving to shortly), so for her to be hanging out at the gym we met at for 4-6 hours... .for a week! (I know this as my friend who goes to the gym and is aware of the entire situation, noted all this and thought it was weird himself). Even more strange is her new boyfriend looks a little too much like me, and I can't tell if I should be as creeped out by this as I am.

Are there any other suggestions/advice around the legal aspects of this?

Really I just can't make heads or tails of all this... .I just want to understand what the point of all this is... .

This is mental illness.  By definition it won't make sense.  Yes, it can be defined, described, written up in textbooks, taught in Psych 101, certain behaviors predicted, but it still won't make sense.  Accept that.

She is a deeply troubled woman with a lot of issues, and has to seek help on her own. You aren't in a position to give her what she needs (in case you have a white knight tendency). It's best to turtle up and avoid engaging with her so she loses interest and moves on.

I know this all sounds intense and maybe unsettling. That's because she does not behave and respond in ways we equate with stability and safety and security. Your instincts are telling you something, and it's important to pay attention to them. If you're inclined to read more about those instincts, read Gavin de Becker's book The Gift of Fear... .paying attention to your instincts is how you stay safe. Too often we discount those feelings, only to find ourselves in a worse position.

It's truly heart-breaking, and yet there is very little any of us can do until the person with BPD commits to intensive long-term therapy. Until then, it's a game of wait and see, hoping that they manage to function and keep themselves safe.

This is emotional dysregulation, and-and-down extremes like a roller coaster, thrilling a first, sickening after a while.  :)ue to her being focused on her unbalanced emotional state, her moods, her feelings, her perceptions, accept that you can't fix her, you can't save her.  Especially: YOU can't fix or save her.  Why?  :)ue to your past relationship, as off-and-on as it was, she can't listen to you because the emotional baggage gets in the way.  To the contrary, you can trigger her.  That's why the best success is with a trained experienced professional.  The therapists keep emotionally neutral and even then it is still a tough task and many BPD patients stop trying, as she has done thus far.

She has ruined her career?  That so sad.  But stay objective, don't let her ruin your career or your life.  As was already written, treat her with extreme caution.  :)istance is a real protection.

With regards to this, I've tried my best to maintain distance. I've refused to go back to the gym I used to visit in the new city I am moving to, since she's now there. I refused to even allow any interaction when she kept showing up at the gym we met for 6-8 hours for a week straight.

Even more creepy to all this, on top of dating a guy that looks way too similar to me, she's managed to track down the person she flaked out on me for, before they ended up breaking up and she came back to me again, as well as the guy she was accused of having an affair with despite the fact that neither of them have been around for over a year, so I am starting to wonder if this was all some sort of charming/triangulation attempt - which I've luckily dodged.

[livednlearned]

Well you've definitely dodged something 

You may not have enough to file a report with the police, but it's worth looking into. People are allowed to go to the same gym you are (that's how they are likely to see it). If she showed up where you worked, hung around outside your apartment, followed you, goes to the gym where you hang out, etc. then there's a pattern of behavior. Which is why you want to document things when you have a BPD ex partner in your life. It's broadly referred to as "legal abuse" when a woman uses the DV laws to her advantage. Thanks to some of the wonderful guys in major sports beating the crap out of their wives, and centuries of women being treated like property (by law), plus a few decades of women's advocacy and research, the courts are now largely tipped in favor of women as victims. You won't see justice, to put it bluntly.

She has to pose as a reasonable threat to you in order to get enough to warrant a protection order. Since she is currently getting supply from other guys (or recycling them), your safest bet might be to lay as low as possible and if you do run into her, be boring boring boring boring. It's not fair that you can't attend the gym, and have to change your routine, but mental illness doesn't let things be fair. 

And you want to be safe, not right.

[gttc]

Well you've definitely dodged something 

You may not have enough to file a report with the police, but it's worth looking into. People are allowed to go to the same gym you are (that's how they are likely to see it). If she showed up where you worked, hung around outside your apartment, followed you, goes to the gym where you hang out, etc. then there's a pattern of behavior. Which is why you want to document things when you have a BPD ex partner in your life. It's broadly referred to as "legal abuse" when a woman uses the DV laws to her advantage. Thanks to some of the wonderful guys in major sports beating the crap out of their wives, and centuries of women being treated like property (by law), plus a few decades of women's advocacy and research, the courts are now largely tipped in favor of women as victims. You won't see justice, to put it bluntly.

She has to pose as a reasonable threat to you in order to get enough to warrant a protection order. Since she is currently getting supply from other guys (or recycling them), your safest bet might be to lay as low as possible and if you do run into her, be boring boring boring boring. It's not fair that you can't attend the gym, and have to change your routine, but mental illness doesn't let things be fair. 

And you want to be safe, not right.

True, but considering she lives in a different city/country (the one she knows I am moving to and suddenly moved there - saying her university changed her study abroad program 2 months before she was supposed to move another continent entirely!), wouldn't it seem peculiar that she comes back to this country and hangs out at a gym for 4-6 hours for an entire week? I mean even if she was coming back and wanting to train, she was hanging out at the exact time she knows I am always there. She used to go in the morning in the afternoons and I've always gone in the evening. After seeing her once I completely avoided going to the gym for 4 weeks, but my friend who trains at the same time as me says she came in like clockwork right around the time we train and would stay there till close.

I mean my aim with the police report is to have something documented, not a claim or anything, so that IF she continues to do this or threaten me, I can say look I already filed a report with the police about this behavior from her end.

Being at the gym is fine, being at the gym for a 1/6 to 1/4 of a full day for a week straight, even though you're not training is weird enough as is, especially coupled with the fact she goes to the same gym I used to visit in the new city, moved to the same city that I am moving to, and has previously done the whole day gym stake out before.