Still waiting for the honeymoon

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I don't even to know where to start on this topic, but I REALLY need some help.

OK- my marriage of 25 years (minus the 5 years we divorced - She left because of an imagined abandonment she felt due to my going to work... .a topic for a post another time).

Before we married both times, sex was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good.  She disclosed some difficulties due to childhood sexual trauma, which I was very sympathetic toward.  Sex would happen, if I treaded gently in initiating, and made sure her comfort, and pleasure were the top priority.  Never quite frequent enough for me to feel fully "satisfied" but frequent enough to allow me to feel like needs could be met long term.  I might have to consider myself a person who is on the high side of the sex drive spectrum.

Both times we married, sex dropped quite quickly to below "sexless marriage" definition, which is considered less than 10 times per year.  Before marriage, sex was everyday.  After marriage, once a week, then once a month, and now, our current average, is about once a year.

We have 2 beautiful children, and I often wonder, given the paltry frequency of sexual intercourse, how potent I must be.  I've joked that if I rode on an elevator filled with 10 women and I suddenly sneezed, seven would become impregnated.

Anyway, I feel like I am dying of sexual frustration... .(not truly an exaggeration, as I'll try to explain later)

She is uncomfortable even discussing sex- trying to talk about it becomes a trigger for a BIG Rage.  Off limits.  She has also raged and shamed me for masturbation, which I believe, she feels is an act of abandonment and infidelity.  Off limits.  She has behaved in ways that would imply to me that she is actually trying to bust me in the act, so I have to go to considerable lengths to find a safe place and time to take care of myself.  She has made it clear that if she is not in the mood, nothing is going to happen.  She is never in the mood.

When we had babies (one from each of our 2 marriages, so one is 18 and the other is six) she breast fed and felt strongly that we should have a family bed.  Baby was put in between us, to facilitate night time feedings.  When the babies got too big to comfortably sleep between us on a Full Size, then Queen Size bed, she moved out of our bed, and into the kid's room to sleep in a twin bed.

When we do have sex, it is uncomfortable for me, because there is always something between us.  She cannot have an orgasm without her hand held vibrator, so that thing is stuck in between us.  When that thing vibrates on my pubic bone, I often lose my erection, so we have to position in a way to keep that thing from shaking my pelvis.  I'm not all that big in the equipment department, so I have to be creative in order to reach the cookie jar.  If it is not the vibrator between us, she leaves her top on.  Skin on skin contact is pretty rare.  Many times, she demands a condom even though the likelihood of pregnancy is very low.  Clearly, she goes to extremes to avoid pure contact.  I often find that the distance between us, when we are this engaged in intimate activity, prevents me from being able to climax myself.  Part of it is the distance, to be sure, and the other part is that after she has her climax with the vibrator going, or if she isn't using the vibrator at all, the unspoken message is "I wish he would just get it over with, already."  She is rarely, if ever, a willing participant in helping me get my rocks off.  If she is trying, again, it is so that it can be over as quickly as possible.

These details - sorry for the over share - are important to what I am getting at in my post.

Three years ago, I got an e-mail from her and the subject heading read, "the reason I don't want to have sex."  I quickly opened the e-mail and realized that she had sent this e-mail to me and her therapist; but it was never intended to be seen by me.  She had mistakenly sent it to me in error.  I will not go into all of the terrible details, but the letter was filled with some of the most heartbreaking things I have ever had to accept about my wife.  She does not find me sexually attractive AT ALL.  She is disgusted by my overweight.  Feeling my skin against hers is repulsive.  Putting things between us, her shirt, a condom, a vibrator, are the only ways she can tolerate being near me because my fat body reminds her of her morbidly obese father.  She nearly vomits when my fat oozes all over her body.

I am NOT a huge man.  Her father is 450 lbs, or more.  I am stocky in build- like Lou Grant on Mary Tyler Moore, or Tony Soprano in the first few seasons of The Sopranos.  I'm fairly normal for a warm blooded, middle aged American male.  Chunky, yes... .but my fat doesn't "ooze".  I am attractive.  I know this because good looking people hit on me.  I have had patients fall in love with me.  Nurses- female and male, hit on me.  I see people of both genders checking me out- even at the beach.  With my shirt off.  Hairy, middle aged man boobs and all.  She knows this too.  She tells me that she is jealous that so many people get crushes on me.

She has very little sexual desire to begin with, and mix that in with a "sexually repulsive" husband, and she'd rather be celibate.

I read this e-mail in utter horror.  I was so devastated by this, that I was speechless.  I read it twice, and then deleted it.  I couldn't confront her, because I didn't even know what to say.  I sat on this e-mail, and said nothing about it for one year.  :)uring that year, I watched our sexual behavior, to see if it was true.  It was / is true.  I witnessed very deliberate non-verbal actions that demonstrated that she does, in fact, avoid having my bare, hairy, sweaty belly touch her in any way during sex.

I finally decided to confront her about the e-mail.  I had deleted the original, but the text ran through my mind a million times during the year between receiving it, and the confrontation.  The words repeated over and over and over- like PTSD; it was everywhere I was.  I quoted the e-mail verbatim to her.  At first she denied having ever thinking such hurtful thoughts about me.  But as I was able to be extremely accurate and specific about the words she had sent to her therapist, she could deny, or lie any longer.  Backed against a wall, and with no lie good enough to get her out of the shame and guilt, she raged.  She raged hard at me.  Every pathetic, hateful and hurtful thing she could say to me about sex- she did.  It was HORRIBLE.

Since that confrontation 2 years ago, we have had sex twice.  Both times, she kept her top on.  Both times, she required I use a condom.

Since reading that e-mail, I went from feeling sexually confident and handsome, to feeling unattractive, loathsome, obese and utterly ashamed.  I have gone from being comfortable in my own skin, to being absolutely ashamed to be seen naked- by her, or anyone.  I stopped going to the gym because of locker room shame.  My depression got worse- much worse.  I started to feel unlovable and unworthy of love.  I spiraled into thoughts of despair and, to be honest, I began to have suicidal thoughts.

Six weeks ago, I was the lowest I have ever been in my adult life- no, my entire life.  I gave my wife an ultimatum- She has refused to talk to me about sex.  She has shamed me into thinking I am worthless, and unworthy of love, but marriage is a contract between adults promising "to have and to hold."  Either we start having sex with each other, or I start looking to get my needs fulfilled outside of our marriage, or we get divorced.  I did not sign up to be sexually neglected, and I certainly did not get married to become celibate.

What happened next was yet another rage intended to shame me for having sexual needs, and sexual feelings at all.  These past 6 weeks have been the absolute worst 6 weeks of our married lives together.

I'm not sure if I can continue being married to her, but after leaving for 10 days (it was the only way I could stop my spiral toward suicide - AND - the only way I could get her to understand that it is not "only sex" about which I am fed up) and really taking stock of my feeling for her, I have decided to give her a fair and open chance to redeem herself and make some necessary changes in the way she relates to me.  No more emotional abuse, constant criticism, belittling, manipulation, emasculating man bashing, silent treatment, etc and most importantly, no more sexual neglect.

The reason for this long winded post is because I am not deluded enough to believe that my sex life will ever be "normal" while married to her.  Because of my sexual orientation, I will never be sexually fulfilled.  Sexual fulfillment and satisfaction is impossible by virtue of choosing to remain in a monogamous heterosexual marriage.  I am - to the core- a bisexual male.  I have accepted this about myself from the very beginning- I am sexually attracted to both men and women.  Choosing to marry a woman, I was fully cognizant of the reality that a significant part of my sexual desire will NEVER be fulfilled.  I have no delusions about being "cured" of homosexuality by living a heterosexual facade.  I can be married to a woman, and not have sex with a man with whom I am attracted as easily as not having sex with another woman with whom I am attracted.  All are off limits, because of the promise I made to my wife.

The one who has sex with me once a year.

And finds me sexually repulsive.

I've read a lot of stuff on this website, and in the "Staying" subforum about how it is essential for us "non's" to ensure our needs are met, so we can establish boundaries, and practice validation, and get along with our BPD loved ones.

How do I ensure my needs are met, when this basic need- need for physical intimacy and sex- is off limits due to childhood sexual trauma and sex as a trigger?

How can I take care of myself, when I am not allowed to take care of myself (jack off, look at porn, etc) because THIS is a trigger for abandonment and infidelity?

This is an impossible trap.  I've been in this trap for 25 years- essentially my entire adult life.

What should I do?  I'm dying of sexual frustration... .

Thanks for reading this thing through for me.

Love,

Surg_Bear

[Surg_Bear]

I don't even to know where to start on this topic, but I REALLY need some help.

OK- my marriage of 25 years (minus the 5 years we divorced - She left because of an imagined abandonment she felt due to my going to work... .a topic for a post another time).

Before we married both times, sex was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good.  She disclosed some difficulties due to childhood sexual trauma, which I was very sympathetic toward.  Sex would happen, if I treaded gently in initiating, and made sure her comfort, and pleasure were the top priority.  Never quite frequent enough for me to feel fully "satisfied" but frequent enough to allow me to feel like needs could be met long term.  I might have to consider myself a person who is on the high side of the sex drive spectrum.

Both times we married, sex dropped quite quickly to below "sexless marriage" definition, which is considered less than 10 times per year.  Before marriage, sex was everyday.  After marriage, once a week, then once a month, and now, our current average, is about once a year.

We have 2 beautiful children, and I often wonder, given the paltry frequency of sexual intercourse, how potent I must be.  I've joked that if I rode on an elevator filled with 10 women and I suddenly sneezed, seven would become impregnated.

Anyway, I feel like I am dying of sexual frustration... .(not truly an exaggeration, as I'll try to explain later)

She is uncomfortable even discussing sex- trying to talk about it becomes a trigger for a BIG Rage.  Off limits.  She has also raged and shamed me for masturbation, which I believe, she feels is an act of abandonment and infidelity.  Off limits.  She has behaved in ways that would imply to me that she is actually trying to bust me in the act, so I have to go to considerable lengths to find a safe place and time to take care of myself.  She has made it clear that if she is not in the mood, nothing is going to happen.  She is never in the mood.

When we had babies (one from each of our 2 marriages, so one is 18 and the other is six) she breast fed and felt strongly that we should have a family bed.  Baby was put in between us, to facilitate night time feedings.  When the babies got too big to comfortably sleep between us on a Full Size, then Queen Size bed, she moved out of our bed, and into the kid's room to sleep in a twin bed.

When we do have sex, it is uncomfortable for me, because there is always something between us.  She cannot have an orgasm without her hand held vibrator, so that thing is stuck in between us.  When that thing vibrates on my pubic bone, I often lose my erection, so we have to position in a way to keep that thing from shaking my pelvis.  I'm not all that big in the equipment department, so I have to be creative in order to reach the cookie jar.  If it is not the vibrator between us, she leaves her top on.  Skin on skin contact is pretty rare.  Many times, she demands a condom even though the likelihood of pregnancy is very low.  Clearly, she goes to extremes to avoid pure contact.  I often find that the distance between us, when we are this engaged in intimate activity, prevents me from being able to climax myself.  Part of it is the distance, to be sure, and the other part is that after she has her climax with the vibrator going, or if she isn't using the vibrator at all, the unspoken message is "I wish he would just get it over with, already."  She is rarely, if ever, a willing participant in helping me get my rocks off.  If she is trying, again, it is so that it can be over as quickly as possible.

These details - sorry for the over share - are important to what I am getting at in my post.

Three years ago, I got an e-mail from her and the subject heading read, "the reason I don't want to have sex."  I quickly opened the e-mail and realized that she had sent this e-mail to me and her therapist; but it was never intended to be seen by me.  She had mistakenly sent it to me in error.  I will not go into all of the terrible details, but the letter was filled with some of the most heartbreaking things I have ever had to accept about my wife.  She does not find me sexually attractive AT ALL.  She is disgusted by my overweight.  Feeling my skin against hers is repulsive.  Putting things between us, her shirt, a condom, a vibrator, are the only ways she can tolerate being near me because my fat body reminds her of her morbidly obese father.  She nearly vomits when my fat oozes all over her body.

I am NOT a huge man.  Her father is 450 lbs, or more.  I am stocky in build- like Lou Grant on Mary Tyler Moore, or Tony Soprano in the first few seasons of The Sopranos.  I'm fairly normal for a warm blooded, middle aged American male.  Chunky, yes... .but my fat doesn't "ooze".  I am attractive.  I know this because good looking people hit on me.  I have had patients fall in love with me.  Nurses- female and male, hit on me.  I see people of both genders checking me out- even at the beach.  With my shirt off.  Hairy, middle aged man boobs and all.  She knows this too.  She tells me that she is jealous that so many people get crushes on me.

She has very little sexual desire to begin with, and mix that in with a "sexually repulsive" husband, and she'd rather be celibate.

I read this e-mail in utter horror.  I was so devastated by this, that I was speechless.  I read it twice, and then deleted it.  I couldn't confront her, because I didn't even know what to say.  I sat on this e-mail, and said nothing about it for one year.  :)uring that year, I watched our sexual behavior, to see if it was true.  It was / is true.  I witnessed very deliberate non-verbal actions that demonstrated that she does, in fact, avoid having my bare, hairy, sweaty belly touch her in any way during sex.

I finally decided to confront her about the e-mail.  I had deleted the original, but the text ran through my mind a million times during the year between receiving it, and the confrontation.  The words repeated over and over and over- like PTSD; it was everywhere I was.  I quoted the e-mail verbatim to her.  At first she denied having ever thinking such hurtful thoughts about me.  But as I was able to be extremely accurate and specific about the words she had sent to her therapist, she could deny, or lie any longer.  Backed against a wall, and with no lie good enough to get her out of the shame and guilt, she raged.  She raged hard at me.  Every pathetic, hateful and hurtful thing she could say to me about sex- she did.  It was HORRIBLE.

Since that confrontation 2 years ago, we have had sex twice.  Both times, she kept her top on.  Both times, she required I use a condom.

Since reading that e-mail, I went from feeling sexually confident and handsome, to feeling unattractive, loathsome, obese and utterly ashamed.  I have gone from being comfortable in my own skin, to being absolutely ashamed to be seen naked- by her, or anyone.  I stopped going to the gym because of locker room shame.  My depression got worse- much worse.  I started to feel unlovable and unworthy of love.  I spiraled into thoughts of despair and, to be honest, I began to have suicidal thoughts.

Six weeks ago, I was the lowest I have ever been in my adult life- no, my entire life.  I gave my wife an ultimatum- She has refused to talk to me about sex.  She has shamed me into thinking I am worthless, and unworthy of love, but marriage is a contract between adults promising "to have and to hold."  Either we start having sex with each other, or I start looking to get my needs fulfilled outside of our marriage, or we get divorced.  I did not sign up to be sexually neglected, and I certainly did not get married to become celibate.

What happened next was yet another rage intended to shame me for having sexual needs, and sexual feelings at all.  These past 6 weeks have been the absolute worst 6 weeks of our married lives together.

I'm not sure if I can continue being married to her, but after leaving for 10 days (it was the only way I could stop my spiral toward suicide - AND - the only way I could get her to understand that it is not "only sex" about which I am fed up) and really taking stock of my feeling for her, I have decided to give her a fair and open chance to redeem herself and make some necessary changes in the way she relates to me.  No more emotional abuse, constant criticism, belittling, manipulation, emasculating man bashing, silent treatment, etc and most importantly, no more sexual neglect.

The reason for this long winded post is because I am not deluded enough to believe that my sex life will ever be "normal" while married to her.  Because of my sexual orientation, I will never be sexually fulfilled.  Sexual fulfillment and satisfaction is impossible by virtue of choosing to remain in a monogamous heterosexual marriage.  I am - to the core- a bisexual male.  I have accepted this about myself from the very beginning- I am sexually attracted to both men and women.  Choosing to marry a woman, I was fully cognizant of the reality that a significant part of my sexual desire will NEVER be fulfilled.  I have no delusions about being "cured" of homosexuality by living a heterosexual facade.  I can be married to a woman, and not have sex with a man with whom I am attracted as easily as not having sex with another woman with whom I am attracted.  All are off limits, because of the promise I made to my wife.

The one who has sex with me once a year.

And finds me sexually repulsive.

I've read a lot of stuff on this website, and in the "Staying" subforum about how it is essential for us "non's" to ensure our needs are met, so we can establish boundaries, and practice validation, and get along with our BPD loved ones.

How do I ensure my needs are met, when this basic need- need for physical intimacy and sex- is off limits due to childhood sexual trauma and sex as a trigger?

How can I take care of myself, when I am not allowed to take care of myself (jack off, look at porn, etc) because THIS is a trigger for abandonment and infidelity?

This is an impossible trap.  I've been in this trap for 25 years- essentially my entire adult life.

What should I do?  I'm dying of sexual frustration... .

Thanks for reading this thing through for me.

Love,

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

   

I don't have any real words of wisdom to share with you.

I finished reading your post and wanted to at least offer you some support.

My husband is a sex addict yet I know those feelings of being sexually frustrated to the core. Most of our encounters over the years have been focused solely on him and his needs. He tries but I can't get the fact that he got most excited about me when I had a lover on the side. He even went so far as to ask for details and have me call him by my lover's name. I feel like my husband threw me away like a piece of trash.

[DreamerGirl]

Surg_Bear I'm sorry to hear your story, that must be very hurtful knowing how she feels, sexually about you.

25 years in a relationship is a very long time.  As far as her being sexually attracted to you, well, the way I see it is she has deep issues stemming from her childhood.  They are not about you, and you could be be the most physically attractive man in the world, and I bet, she would still find issues.

I don't have a lot of advise, all I can say is please do not take her view off your body as anything but her issues.

vortex of confusion - same with me.  My BPDbf is a sex addict too.

I still have so many problems trying to figure out why he wants to see me and hear me talk about being with other men or women.  He can turn any conversation around and make it about sex.  It makes me feel sad.

It seems his life revolves around sex and that makes me feel like I am just a piece of meat to him.  There is so much more to me, but he doesn't really seem to care about the other parts of me.

[Notwendy]

Your post was not TMI, but emotionally revealing about your painful situation. I don't think you are alone. Sexual issues are unfortunately common in relationships with PDs. I think sexual relationships are emotionally difficult even when BPD is not involved. It is at the heart of a relationship, so it stands to reason that there would be issues if there are relationship issues, even if they are different depending on the couple. Although not to the extent that your wife has done, I can recall a time when my H was not attracted to me and it was devastating.

As Vortex indicated, your wife's issues are about her. Attraction is very much emotional and mental. Sure, some people are physically attractive, but that doesn't compose the whole of it. Few of us at middle age look like supermodels, but we can take care of our health physically and mentally.

One of the first steps all of us can take is to take care of ourselves. Your wife's issues have taken a toll on your self esteem, but self care- in many areas- helps us regain it. Regular exercise can benefit you in many ways- you know this as a physician, and it will help you feel your body again- I mean this in an emotional and physical way- as you use your muscles, get fit, in can ground you. Many of us have lost touch with ourselves over the years.

Also you can make decisions about your own body. Sex is an important component of marriage- that is something you and your wife will need to come to some terms with. Infidelity is not something I am comfortable with, I will not suggest it. However, your other two choices are sex with her and taking care of yourself. Meeting your wife's expectation that you not be sexual at all is probably physiologically impossible for an adult male. You can choose to honor your marriage vows to her while deciding on the direction of your marriage. You can make an ethical choice. However, biologically, your hormones continue to produce sperm and you are wired to release it. Ideally, this would happen with a partner in a healthy marriage, along with the marriage being the main emotional focus. Sex addiction- and frequent masturbation can hurt a relationship, but you are not neglecting a willing partner.

You have the right to make your choices to take care of yourself. She may not like this, but it is your body.

Have you done any personal T? It could be helpful. As a surgeon, you probably have a busy schedule and also are taking care of other people. You have likely put a lot of who you are on the back burner for a long time. Scheduling time to take care of yourself- eat right, exercise, counseling, is a first step to discovering who "you" are.

[Surg_Bear]

Have you done any personal T? It could be helpful. As a surgeon, you probably have a busy schedule and also are taking care of other people. You have likely put a lot of who you are on the back burner for a long time. Scheduling time to take care of yourself- eat right, exercise, counseling, is a first step to discovering who "you" are.

Yes, NW, I am in therapy.  I see a psychiatrist who I picked based on his theoretical foundation- his practice is heavily influenced by Carl Jung's Analytic theories.  I have been seeing my psychiatrist now for four years.

I have read much of Jung's work, as well as some of Freud's writings.  I prefer the Jungian worldview, as it truly resonates with me.  When I have time to read, I usually read either Jung's work or a more recent work by a contemporary Jungian.  My psychotherapy is twice weekly- sometimes more, but would not be considered true Jungian "Analysis." 

It has always been a pipe dream of mine, to undergo formal Jungian Analysis and when I'm ready to retire from surgery, become a Jungian Analyst myself.  I find the concepts of collective unconscious, archetypes, complexes and projection so very compelling.  We often examine my dreams, in my therapy; which I find absolutely riveting.  My dreams are often a "status update" of my psyche- what is working too much, what is demanding more attention, etc.

I would love to have more time to devote to myself, but my work hours are SO excessive, that I'm really lucky if I get 5 hours of sleep. As I said in my honeymoon post, I used to go to the gym, but because of the recent acquisition of body shame and locker room issues, the gym seems almost too much emotional hassle.  I still have the monthly membership fee sucked out of my checking account, but I really stopped going when I started to feel ashamed of my body.  It's been tough, but I am starting to re-claim my confidence in this regard.  I do feel like exercising more and more, and it is an activity that was lost because of being so enmeshed in my wife's BPD / mental illness.  Going to the gym, playing tennis, surfing, these were true pleasurable activities of my life that were mysteriously sucked from the landscape of my experience.  Guilt trips, abandonment fears, and just plain jealousy lead to my being manipulated into withdrawing energy, interest, and commitment from activities that weren't just pleasurable in my life- these activities WERE my life.  Because my wife doesn't share interest in these activities, or physical fitness, at all; my participation in these activities became currency that she stole from me. 

In many ways, I gave these activities up because the constant criticisms, mind games and crazy making lead me to believe that if I tried harder, if I was just a better husband, if I made her happy in some way, maybe she would touch me, or even better, let me touch her.  She would chastise me for spending too much time away from home- on top of working the equivalent of 2, sometimes 3 full time jobs.

I used to believe that I did my best / most intense communicating of my tenderness, love, and caring about her during the nonverbal physical intimacy that used to be the sex life in our marriage.  Sex, for me, was not just the physical act of intercourse, it was the remembering and re-communicating the joy and love that we used to celebrate during our love making when we had first met.  Yes, there is the discharge of the physical tension that builds and becomes physically uncomfortable to me when I've been starved too long, but sex used to be so much more... .or so I thought.  I have come to realize now, from the things she has said to me about sex during rages and being triggered during more recent "discussions" about sex, that she has always viewed sex as an attack.  She has told me that she never feels safe during sex, and that she re-lives painful traumatic memories during our sex.  The romantic imagery that used to float around in my head- the love and tenderness I thought I was communicating to her during sex, was nothing more than the phone ringing and ringing and ringing.  I was just talking to myself.  She was not listening- she was busy being attacked and molested by my sexuality.  This is the most hurtful realization I have taken to heart about my miserable sex life.  All the times I thought I was taking care of her- telling her how much I love her, and how I feel deeply connected to her; she was silently reliving childhood "rape" trauma.  Why did it seem like we were communicating and connecting on a basic, primal level, when in fact, I was just recapitulating her childhood sexual abuse?  Is mirroring that good?  I feel so cheated.  I thought our sex was something SO special, when she was thinking it was so VILE and REPULSIVE.

It's really heartbreaking for me to type this.

I met with my shrink today, and he challenged me with some hard core questions about my thoughts and feelings regarding my future.  My sexuality is one aspect of a greater whole, that has been engulfed by this monster; and I am seeing more clearly everyday how losing myself in the conflict of my wife's BPD is a tragedy on so many levels.  Stepping back and re-claiming what was once mine is essential to my own transcendent function- of becoming whole, and emerging my true self.  I cannot allow my sex or any other aspect of me to be held in the no-win, trap that is my marriage.

My future in this marriage is non-existent.  If I continue down this rat's nest, I will become engulfed, annihilated, and enmeshed in our autonomous shared mental illness which seeks to sustain itself in the compulsory re-enactments of our past, and shared emotional traumas. 

I am standing at a fork in my road - the life's journey- where I must decide to stay, and become a victim of fear, abuse, and self loss; or leave, and live out the true heroic drama that is my independent life ahead.

What makes it so hard to choose the obvious best path to take is that I LOVE MY WIFE.

It is becoming increasingly clear, however, that she cannot love me.

Surg_Bear

[Notwendy]

It is good that you are in T. This is an aspect of self care. I understand how you feel about having neglected your physical activities. Many of us have struggled in some way or another with taking time for ourselves. The demands of surgery would also make it even more important to carve some time to take care of yourself, even if not in a difficult r/s.

Doing so is a hard thing for many of us as any change in our behavior can be met with resistance. For me, it was the T strongly suggesting that I go to 12 step co-dependency meetings. The meetings were beneficial, but so was the change in pattern. My H doesn't like it when I am out of the house in the evenings. He doesn't stop me, but he complains and makes it clear he doesn't like it. Like you, I would make efforts to show him that I care about him by curtailing the activities. With the support of my T, I could get through this and leave for a meeting. So while going to the gym will benefit you, so will the action of taking time to take care of yourself and setting this boundary.

I am not a T, but you know there are different approaches to making personal changes. One way is through understanding your psyche, as you are doing. Another is to just do it (while also doing T ). Although you feel body shame at the gym, I would bet that there are people there who look a lot like you. Many gyms have personal trainers and setting some time with one could give you moral support. Doing things to take care of yourself might be hard, and feel very strange. Your self care "muscles" can get out of shape too. But think of this as mental therapy as well as physical.

Regardless of what you decide in your marriage, self care is important. I hope you can carve out some time to take this step.

[zulfiqar]

Hi SB im sorry that you have to go through that. I have no real advice but two questions pop up in my head.

Why are you still with her after all these horrible things?

What does that tell you about yourself & what can you learn and grow?

[Surg_Bear]

Hi SB im sorry that you have to go through that. I have no real advice but two questions pop up in my head.

Why are you still with her after all these horrible things?

What does that tell you about yourself & what can you learn and grow?

I am still with her for two main reasons:

1.  We have children together. While one will be leaving for college soon (three months); the other is still quite young. She's 6 1/2 years old. 

2.  I still love my wife. A lot. My love for her, is not a co-dependency neurotic attachment.   I truly love her.

I try to imagine what it would be like to separate and co-parent our youngest; and I just don't know how I could make it work.  I am on-call 9 or 10 times a month. On-call means 7:00 am until 7:00 am the next day. I don't just punch a time card and come home at 7:00 am the next day. Sometimes, I'm in surgery, seeing office patients and making rounds in two hospitals until 9:00 or 10:00 pm the next day. I have no idea how I could possibly line up a babysitter for 39 hrs in a row.  There's no way I could find someone to fill in for my wife when I am on-call.  The call schedule is not regular and predictable either- it's not unusual to be on-call every other day for 10 days in a row. I've gone a whole week without seeing my kids awake.  How could I possibly get a babysitter to live-in and basically parent my daughter in my absence for a week straight?

My career makes me an absent father, by definition.

So, it feels absolutely wrong to subject my children to this kind of upbringing, so that I can escape my sexless marriage. I would never divorce and give up all custody, as that would set me up to lose everything I live and work so hard for- my family.

I suppose, then, I get what I pay for. My wife is the live-in babysitter, who has all the power in this relationship. She determines how much / little sex I get. She has the final say in all matters pertaining to childcare, since she does everything (or so she says). She keeps her clinical psychology private practice filled with just enough work to keep her professionally fulfilled, knowing that her earnings aren't contributing to keeping our boat afloat. If you look at our taxes, her income exceeds expenses only by $5,000 per year. Her practice is a hobby that my income funds.

What does this tell me about myself?

I am a prisoner in a sexless, unfulfilling marriage with a mentally ill wife with BPD where I am little more than an ATM.  In a word, I'm a sucker.

What the heck am I doing here?

Loving someone who is emotionally unable, and is unwilling to love me the way I need so desperately to be loved.  It is mind-boggling that I could be so professionally successful, earn incredible income, be so respected by peers and my community, and yet be such a complete and powerless loser at home.

Being devoted and supportive at home gets me childcare at the cost of my self respect to the price of suffering sexual neglect, emotional abuse and unpredictable, frightening, vindictive rages.

I'm spiraling into a wasteland of despair and hopelessness.  Imprisoned by love forged in a unspeakable bait and switch- twice. She is not the person she presented herself as, before we got married- either time.  She was sexually receptive, affectionate, loving, caring and considerate.  She can be all of those things (besides sexual) to just about anyone else in the world- her family, patients, children, even complete strangers - except me.  I'm the punching bag she uses to get out all of her pent up rages, fears, shame and guilt.

Surg_Bear

[Surg_Bear]

It is good that you are in T... .The demands of surgery would also make it even more important to carve some time to take care of yourself, even if not in a difficult r/s.



Regardless of what you decide in your marriage, self care is important. I hope you can carve out some time to take this step.

I LOVE the "carve out" pun... . 

Hilarious. I'm great at carving out cancer. I do it all the time.

Carving out time for myself... .Not so easy.

Thanks for the advice, NW.

The alliteration was not lost on me.   

Love,

Surg_Bear

[Notwendy]

Something to consider-

Aside from the BPD, how much of your relationship reflects the lifestyle you have? I understand the restrictions of your job, and that it is not something you can really change, but it leaves little time for family. You are not in a different boat than many surgeons, but it is known that this affects marriages. Books have been written on the topic of the "medical marriage".

Your job requires long periods of being absent- and this leaves your wife to function basically as a single parent. It has also likely taken a toll on her profession, and so she gives up an area of self esteem there. Yes, I fully agree with you that leaving your wife and then placing your child in the care of a sitter instead of her mother makes little sense for the child, and you do love your wife, so those are two pretty big reasons to stay together.

I don't know how things were in the beginning of your relationship, but sex is emotionally driven too. Could it be possible that the long hours at work have taken a toll on your emotional intimacy? If it has, then the idea of sex without it may not appeal to your wife. I have read somewhere that for men, sex makes them feel connected to their partners. For women, they may need more emotional connection. Your wife may also feel some anger at not seeing you for long periods of time.

From your perspective, this may seem very unfair- you spend most of your time in a self sacrificing position- helping sick people, providing for a family, not taking time for yourself- but without time for self care, can you be fully present to your relationship? You are not the only one in this situation- it is understandable- but is it possible to get some counseling- for yourself, and your marriage, meet your wife for a "date" ( even if it doesn't lead to sex at the time). At first, she may just vent her feelings, but listening to her point of view might help your situation.

BPD may compound your relationship, but the stresses of a medical marriage are common- and making some changes there might get you to a better place in your marriage.

[Notwendy]

I forgot, you are in Jungian therapy, but I don't know how that translates into actions very quickly.

Surely you have a lot to deal with at home and are probably being as supportive as you can. However, I wonder if there are some things that can be done to help in your circumstances. Medical marriages have their own set of stresses, even for people who do not have BPD.

[Surg_Bear]

I forgot, you are in Jungian therapy, but I don't know how that translates into actions very quickly.

Surely you have a lot to deal with at home and are probably being as supportive as you can. However, I wonder if there are some things that can be done to help in your circumstances. Medical marriages have their own set of stresses, even for people who do not have BPD.

I'll look to see what I can find on the internet about medical marriages.

You know, for all the checking she does- "are you cheating?" "are you going to leave me for a nurse?" "are you having an affair?"

Never once had I even considered it an option.  I'm married.  With children.  How could I do that?

EASY !

My job requires that I provide overnight emergency surgical care for patients 10 times a month.  I could easily slip an affair into that mix, get my needs met, and no one would ever know.  I'm sure it happens all the time- big rich surgeons in their fancy clothes and fancy cars.  At one point, my psychiatrist asked me why I hadn't considered that as a possibility- getting sex outside of my marriage.  Many people do this- even get to a place where they have long term monogamous sex with the same person outside the primary marriage. 

I've never strayed. 

It's her worst fear- abandonment.  I don't know what she'd do if she found out.  What would that rage look like?  I would seriously have to fear for my life.

We have started marriage / couples therapy together, but I don't know how much longer I can do that.  She uses this as a platform for painting me black, and really settling into a victim role.  Remember- she's a psychologist herself- and really amazing at two things - pushing all of the right buttons to needle me into anger, and gaslighting and FOGGING me- making me feel like I'm the crazy one.  I become so furious during the therapy sessions, I feel like I'm about to have a stroke.  I need to stop paying $150 an hour just to feel that way. This couple's therapy is not helping us as a couple- it is helping her be a better borderline wife, getting exactly what she wants- like a cat with a play toy, or better yet, a live mouse it has caught- right before it chews its head off.

I have tried to do validation- it works sometimes- sometimes she sees right through it and attacks me for it (she doesn't need validated when what she really wants is conflict).  I have recently and previously set boundaries that I can and will enforce.

My closest friends, and my therapist all suggest that I leave this toxic marriage before it kills me.  I might just have to do that- and give up all custody, unless an attorney is good enough to help me get custody time when I'm not on-call, which is almost never, given the insane way surgeons "own" their patients.

I'm not seeing any future in this - what I want for myself- to live in an emotionally mature, adult relationship between two caring and considerate adults, is a pipe dream.  With BPD, that is never a possibility, I know.  Over the last few years, I have been withdrawing my own "Caretaking" behaviors, which has given me some room for me to maintain my own sanity.  I somehow arrived at withdrawing the Caretaking, without even having read the book, Stop Caretaking The Borderline or Narcissist, by realizing that my dancing with my wife in the conflict, was what her mental illness was working to achieve- conflict for the sake of conflict.

I appreciate the opportunity to vent on this Internet forum, and I really appreciate the feedback from everyone who has responded to my posts. 

I'll keep trying to stay, until I can stay no longer.

Love,

Surg_Bear

[Notwendy]

Isn't that what Grey's Anatomy and General Hospital are all about- the "real" lives of surgeons - well maybe not quite but probably based on some reality.

I think looking to get your needs met by crossing this line is dangerous territory. I have read several sources that state that we get into relationships because of our own emotional makeup, and going from one to the other without some work on ourselves can land us in the same situation, even if it looks different at first.

IMHO .That "nurse" who looks tempting to you might be right out of "fatal attraction". Women who are seeking vulnerable married men might not have the kind of integrity you with for.  I would wonder if you are so emotionally/sexually vulnerable that you could be in a position to not have good judgement of who you end up with. Perhaps you can see your fidelity as protecting yourself. Ideally, one would end a relationship and heal before starting a new one. If you did meet someone you felt you wanted a relationship with, I would think it would be better to end yours than to have a cheating situation. This is my opinion, but also made after seeing some of my friends' marriages fall apart.

[vortex of confusion]

Never once had I even considered it an option.  I'm married.  With children.  How could I do that?

Hold on to that value! Seriously, it is so very important to know your values and not let go of them. I spent 15 years saying the same thing. At some point, something inside me snapped and I lost sight of my values. I consented to trying an open marriage. I did maintain my honesty. The problem is that a lot of the people that are looking for those types of situations are cheaters that are lying.

I become so furious during the therapy sessions, I feel like I'm about to have a stroke. 

What is it that makes you so furious? Is she outright lying? Is she putting a spin on things that make her look like the poor little wife? Do you get a chance to speak during these sessions?

she doesn't need validated when what she really wants is conflict).  I have recently and previously set boundaries that I can and will enforce.

Don't give her conflict. Keep setting and enforcing those boundaries. If something makes you hopping mad, don't say a word to her. I found that I had to bite my tongue a lot when I was trying to figure some of the this stuff out. I would bite my tongue and then come here and post or talk to somebody else that could help me figure out how to respond in a healthier way. Some of the stuff that my husband does makes me so blasted angry. For example, when the kids are fighting, he starts yelling at them without taking the time to figure out what is going on. I used to yell at him for yelling. Now, I ignore him. When he shuts up, I step in and deal with the kids without ever saying a word to him. I might later say something simple like, "You yelling like that scares the kids." I try to avoid fighting even if that means that some things get left unresolved.

My closest friends, and my therapist all suggest that I leave this toxic marriage before it kills me.  I might just have to do that- and give up all custody, unless an attorney is good enough to help me get custody time when I'm not on-call, which is almost never, given the insane way surgeons "own" their patients.

Do you have family members that could help you? I am thinking that you could try for a standard custody agreement. If you get called in, then you can work it out with a family member such as grandparents/aunt/uncle/etc. so that if you get called in, the kids can spend time with the family member. That way, there is a standard arrangement. Maybe you could post this question on the legal board. I am sure that there are other doctors or professionals that are in on call positions that have navigated custody.

I'm not seeing any future in this - what I want for myself- to live in an emotionally mature, adult relationship between two caring and considerate adults, is a pipe dream.

I think that is what most of us want. The bigger question for me is how emotionally mature am I? In my case, I think my husband and I were both pretty immature when we met all of those years ago. After kids and houses and adult responsibilities, I feel like I grew up to a certain degree. He didn't really grow up. I still have a lot of growing to do. I suspect you do too. One of the things that you can do while you are staying and trying to figure out whether or not to leave is to pretty much stop worrying about what she is doing and focus on yourself and your own personal growth.  

I'll keep trying to stay, until I can stay no longer.

I can relate to that sentiment. While you are staying, you can try to find ways to make things more peaceful. And, you can start creating an exit strategy even if you don't ever use it.



[/quote]

[Surg_Bear]

Never once had I even considered it an option.  I'm married.  With children.  How could I do that?

Hold on to that value! Seriously, it is so very important to know your values and not let go of them. I spent 15 years saying the same thing. At some point, something inside me snapped and I lost sight of my values. I consented to trying an open marriage. I did maintain my honesty. The problem is that a lot of the people that are looking for those types of situations are cheaters that are lying.

I become so furious during the therapy sessions, I feel like I'm about to have a stroke. 

What is it that makes you so furious? Is she outright lying? Is she putting a spin on things that make her look like the poor little wife? Do you get a chance to speak during these sessions?

My closest friends, and my therapist all suggest that I leave this toxic marriage before it kills me.  I might just have to do that- and give up all custody, unless an attorney is good enough to help me get custody time when I'm not on-call, which is almost never, given the insane way surgeons "own" their patients.

Do you have family members that could help you? I am thinking that you could try for a standard custody agreement. If you get called in, then you can work it out with a family member such as grandparents/aunt/uncle/etc. so that if you get called in, the kids can spend time with the family member. That way, there is a standard arrangement. Maybe you could post this question on the legal board. I am sure that there are other doctors or professionals that are in on call positions that have navigated custody.

I'm not seeing any future in this - what I want for myself- to live in an emotionally mature, adult relationship between two caring and considerate adults, is a pipe dream.

I think that is what most of us want. The bigger question for me is how emotionally mature am I? In my case, I think my husband and I were both pretty immature when we met all of those years ago. After kids and houses and adult responsibilities, I feel like I grew up to a certain degree. He didn't really grow up. I still have a lot of growing to do. I suspect you do too. One of the things that you can do while you are staying and trying to figure out whether or not to leave is to pretty much stop worrying about what she is doing and focus on yourself and your own personal growth.  


I can relate to that sentiment. While you are staying, you can try to find ways to make things more peaceful. And, you can start creating an exit strategy even if you don't ever use it.


No family here in town. We are across the country from both of our families due to choices made to support her doctoral education.

I think that one of the things that brought this whole marital crisis to a head was growth I had achieved in my own therapy. The emotional / verbal abuse and sexual neglect had been so easy for me to overlook year after year because my own self worth was so terrible, I felt that on some level, I deserved it. I accepted without question her tirades about me being a terrible husband because I had no way to refute the argument, when I would stay out for 48 hrs straight, and come home absolutely exhausted. I couldn't be the husband she needed, so I thought, and she had every right to belittle me, emasculate me, abuse me and sexually neglect me. I deserved it.

Until I had enough therapy to realize that this is not true. I am not a terrible husband for being a caring, compassionate and loving surgeon to my patients. I am NOT ever so terrible that verbal abuse and mind games to create FOG, manipulate, and crazy make could ever be justified.

I have come to truly believe- and this is my biggest personal growth statement- I am worthy of love. I am worthy of a relationship based on love, trust, mutual respect and consideration. I am worthy enough to expect that my wife would WANT to satisfy my needs for physical and sexual affection.

I have always gone out of my way- even overboard- to ensure that my wife receives physical affection, and our "lovemaking" always, always always involves her pleasure first. Even when I've got cum dripping out my ears from the months of abstinence, I put her safety, comfort and needs before my own. I am worthy enough to expect that my spouse would consider my needs as real.

I understand that my long hours of work make for some lonely nights for my wife.  That does not justify abuse and neglect as retribution for my "abandonment". 

Again, I know I'm supposed to be focused on improving myself, and ensuring that I am taking care of myself. I really have. My self esteem has improved considerably. I accept that I do not look like Brad Pitt, or that awesome brick wall of a man who played the werewolf in True Blood- Alcide.  But I don't think I'm overstepping any concept of marriage by expecting my wife to WANT me.  I feel like my wife's impossible bar to meet, with the ever changing target, is constructed so that I always fail to measure up. I cannot win, so she can perpetuate her need for conflict, abandonment, and to justify her self loathing and shame.

How am I supposed to ensure I'm addressing my needs, when this basic need- physical affection and sexual attention require a willing partner to participate? 

I feel like I've upheld my end of the deal. I stay true to my marriage vows. I validate when the horse hockey coming out of her mouth is so demeaning and purely hateful, that any self respecting man would turn away and never look back.  I will continue to be here for her- if she would just help me with this one single need that requires a dance partner.  I can deal with the other crap we all have to deal with- being partnered with people suffering BPD, as I have been for my entire adult life.

Why is this so impossible?

Surg_Bear

[/quote]

[Notwendy]

Jungian therapy has helped you, but one thing that I have found to be helpful in addition to therapy is co-dependency 12 step groups. I know that Vortex did not find that helpful, so I understand that one thing doesn't fit all people. What I also found helpful was ACOA- adult children of alcoholics- which should include another initial to it to include dysfunction as there seems to be a lot of overlap between how alcoholic and dysfunctional families operate. The "laundry list" of ACOA resonated with me.

www.adultchildren.org/lit-Laundry_List

Many of the issues between me and my H were due to perception- a perception from our childhood- beyond reality. Reality is an issue- mental health issues are no picnic, but perception- seeing ourselves as not deserving, as victims of cruel spouses, making meaning where there is none, can compound the situation. I say this from both sides. Your wife could also be making meaning of your actions where none is intended. I found that when my H was angry at me, it was often the meaning he made out of my intentions, not the intentions. Once I understood this, my reactivity- feeling hurt to what he said, went way down, and vice versa- once I realized how he perceived things I said or did, I was able to change how I said them or at least understand how he felt.

One common thread is self esteem. With low self esteem- anything said or done can go down that rabbit hole of self deprecation. Self esteem is formed from within- sure a critical abusive spouse can harm it and lead to a progressive loss of it, but not having it in the first place can put us in a vulnerable position to let criticism get to us.

It is good that you are doing the therapy. It seems that it is helping you. It is important to focus on our own issues- I would say that to anyone because I feel it is true for me. It seems that you are caring and compassionate- to your wife, your patients, but are you caring and compassionate to yourself? Going to the gym isn't all about looking like Brad Pitt, but taking care of yourself, your body, your mental health.

With regards to the laundry list- this one stood out to me: "We either become alcoholics, marry them or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs"

"We marry someone who can fulfill our sick abandonment needs". Children raised in dysfunctional homes had parents who were not emotionally available to them for various reasons. These parents were often critical, absent emotionally, abusive, controlling- or whatever led the child to feel unloved. Often we play these dramas out in a marriage. You are gone frequently- does your wife play out her abandonment fears with this? How does her being critical of you and physically unavailable play out your fears and feelings? Self care is often the first step out of this loop. You have placed the source of your care with your wife- that is understandable, but taking some time to take care of yourself, learning to love and value yourself is a first step to change.

[vortex of confusion]

How am I supposed to ensure I'm addressing my needs, when this basic need- physical affection and sexual attention require a willing partner to participate? 

I don't have any good answers for this question. I have been there. My partner was willing to participate but only long enough to get HIS needs met. My needs went largely ignored. When you start down the path of healing and taking care of yourself, there are some things that you might need to put on the back burner for a bit longer. I know. Hearing that made me so angry. I have been making his needs a priority for 17 years. It is my turn for somebody to make ME a priority. In theory, that makes perfect sense. In practice, all that thinking is going to do is get me even more frustrated. It is the equivalent of wishing a rock would turn into a pillow. It isn't going to happen. So, you might want to ask yourself a question: "Can I live like this indefinitely?" If you want to stay in the relationship, then it is likely that you will need to accept that this is the way it is going to be.

I feel like I've upheld my end of the deal. I stay true to my marriage vows. I validate when the horse hockey coming out of her mouth is so demeaning and purely hateful, that any self respecting man would turn away and never look back.  I will continue to be here for her- if she would just help me with this one single need that requires a dance partner.  I can deal with the other crap we all have to deal with- being partnered with people suffering BPD, as I have been for my entire adult life.

It sounds like expectations are holding you back. I hate saying that because I hate that I feel like I can't have any expectations or desires with regards to my husband or this relationship. Sure, things get better from time to time. Overall, I know that things aren't likely to stay good or better. I am learning not to expect anything from him.

If she is spouting horse hockey and is being demeaning and hateful, then set a boundary. Don't sit around and listen to that crap.

Re-read what you wrote. You said that any self respecting man wouldn't tolerate that. Be a self respecting man and don't tolerate it. 

Why is this so impossible?

It is impossible because you are dealing with somebody that is emotionally stunted. I feel like I have grown up and my husband hasn't. I also realize that my husband hasn't really had much reason to grow up because I have allowed him to be a snithead. I have accepted crappy treatment. When you stop accepting those things, it might get a bit ugly for a while. Look up extinction bursts. It is them trying to keep things the way they have always been because things have been skewed in their favor.