is there hope?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

     My undiag. BPD/npd claims to have had a good average childhood, although she does not have a good relationship with mother (believes she is not loved) but idolizes her deceased father.

  If this may not be true and she has suffered some trauma and is not willing to share/face,  do you believe it possible for her to face the possibility of having BPD?   She already admits to having ocd but i see no signs of this.

 Is it possible she already knows about her BPD and is just covering it by saying she has ocd?   could these conditions be similar in where maybe my unprofessional ideas of BPD are wrong?

arg... .

[Pacify]

     My undiag. BPD/npd claims to have had a good average childhood, although she does not have a good relationship with mother (believes she is not loved) but idolizes her deceased father.

  If this may not be true and she has suffered some trauma and is not willing to share/face,  do you believe it possible for her to face the possibility of having BPD?   She already admits to having ocd but i see no signs of this.

 Is it possible she already knows about her BPD and is just covering it by saying she has ocd?   could these conditions be similar in where maybe my unprofessional ideas of BPD are wrong?

arg... .

[UserName69]

Sounds like my exBPD. She never told me about her BPD in fact she claimed that I'm a person with BPD. I knew something was wrong with her whenever I told her that she acts strange and weird she told me that she didn't want to talk about it. If I didn't meet my current girlfriend I would have never found out about BPD, when I told her about my exBPD she told me that she might be a BPD. I hit the internet and boom. My gf is right.

I know for sure she had suffered traumas, she always kept it really vague she told me that she used to be a drug addict, forced into prostitution, got raped . At the other side she's a liar so once I found out she was a liar it was hard to believe her.

She did see a shrink so she's aware of her BPD but the last time when I confronted her with it she told me that I have been stalking her and she's going to the cops. I think they feel a lot of shame because they know what's wrong with them, they won't admit it instead they blame it on their partner or make up an another lie.

[Invictus01]

If you mean "hope" for a successful relationship, then the answer is "not likely". A personality disordered person first needs to recognize that he or she is actually personality disordered. According to psychologists, the "vast majority" of personality disordered people will never submit themselves for an evaluation (they basically have to be so low functioning that it has to be pretty obvious that something is off) Out of the minority who do submit themselves for an evaluation, a good portion of them will be misdiagnosed with something else for various reasons, given a bunch of meds that don't do them any good and be sent free. Out of those who will be diagnosed with a personality disorder, a good percentage will never even begin the treatment once they find out what it takes (and it takes 5+ years of psychological treatment). And out of those who do go through with it... .well, the percentage of those who get better isn't too horribly high. That's why "hope" isn't too horribly likely.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Pacify-

BPD is a disorder that exists to deny itself and having the awareness from within the disorder to self-diagnose isn't likely.  There is a pretty definitive list of traits of the disorder though, you ended up on this site for a reason, and the disorder label doesn't really matter anyway, the behaviors and how they affect the borderline's life and yours are what matter.  So what behaviors have you witnessed that suggest she may have this disorder?

[Pretty Woman]

Are you still with her or has she left?

Untreated BPD's so not get better. They say some outgrow it but that is poppycock in my opinion.  Without extensive core treatment, like DBT they will continue their patterns until infinity.

They will never be happy in a relationship. YOU do have that chance.  Get out now.

Sorry, tough love 

PW

[Pacify]

We are currently mutually separated, although she doesn’t seem to want to continue as she says she needs to focus on career (waitress had two jobs in the last five months that lasted less than a week) and recovery.  I have been supporting her for the most part but we no longer live together.

Symptoms she has that I have came across while browsing this site:

Stubborn

selfish

Vengeful

Cold

little sense of humor

gets a hobby that lasts a few days

gets stuck on telling same story if it irritates her.  (is she looking for validation?)

  everything is my fault

  Hyper sensitive to criticism

  sense of entitlement

  NEEDS to be right!

  Cannot deviate from a plan.  Ex. Cant take a shortcut to get somewhere

  if route is in her mind.

  Very nervous and stresses at anything (eye tick).

  Accused me of her behavior when stressed  (projection?).

  Has made up stuff when in a fight (gaslighting?).

  Cannot give examples of things she claims i do.

  shuts down in arguments or rages, silent treatment.

  makes excuses for everything.  never accepts responsibility.

and what really irritates me is I do all this stuff for her and acts like im the bad guy while saying she is not the enemy!

[rotiroti]

I know for sure she had suffered traumas, she always kept it really vague she told me that she used to be a drug addict, forced into prostitution, got raped . At the other side she's a liar so once I found out she was a liar it was hard to believe her.

This hits way too close to home. The crazy thing is, at least for my ex all of these traumas were true... but being nc for 7 days, i can see how she used it to thinking i was the rescuer she needed.

i'm so tempted to break n/c these days due to rumination, but seeing this really helped. thank you

[leftconfused]

  Cannot give examples of things she claims i do.

 

I can relate to pretty much all the things you quoted with my exuBPDbf but that one really got me.  He claimed early on that I was aggressive with him often.  In the early phases we were both willing to hear what bothered us about the other in fights etc and would talk it out and try to change it.  This was the only thing he could say about me.  So I would say ok can you give me an example of a time I did that and he couldn't remember off the top of his head.  So I said OK then please point it out to me the next time I am doing it so I know what you are talking about and he agreed.  But it never happened.  Then later he would bring it up again and I would again say, please give me an example. Again he could not. 

This is a good remimder for me of what I was dealing with.  I think its pure projection because if anyone was ever aggressive it was certainly him.

[Mutt]

Hey rotiroti,

Is it possible she already knows about her BPD and is just covering it by saying she has ocd?  

I can understand how it's difficult for people to admit that they have personal problems, let alone a personality disorder. We're not professionals and can't diagnose and we can look at traits and have boundaries to protect ourselves from bad behaviors.

I shared this link another thread and I hope it helps with understanding if a person acknowledges that they have a personality disorder and if they commit to treatment.

This is a person that has recovered from BPD and this is what she has to say... .

Some with BPD will not ever acknowledge that they have problems, let alone a personality disorder. Others will, for whatever reason, seek treatment, but not admit to having issues . Still others will seek treatment only when experiencing "fear of abandonment" because others are pressuring them.

Any of the above scenarios aren't likely to effect a high success rate in therapy or the kind of results that are desired and needed.

The most promising situation comes only when a borderline has the personal desire and motivation to change. When your loved one needs to, at the very least, turn suffering into manageable pain, and at the very best, get on and stay on the road to recovery. This motivation must come from deep inside the person with BPD to enter into treatment, and make a meaningful ongoing commitment to it.

You, as a family member or relationship partner, can lead, or in some cases coerce, or even force a borderline to therapy - but you cannot lead, or coerce, or force them to drink it in.

Borderline Personality Disorder Therapy - Is Your Loved One Serious?

[Pacify]

  She gets stressed to the point where her eye will twitch, especially if I bring something up about how she treated me and me wanting an answer.  This is where she will now rage and throw things the storm off.

  She threatened to call the cops on me for medication I was holding for her (former addict)  and I was not always a squeaky clean person so….   threats of the cops are a HUGE no-no!

  I made oatmeal one day and asked her if she wanted any and she said “ no im not hungry and while I was eating it she started cooking a porterhouse we just bought.   Cooking and eating a good meal was something I always took as important.   I know, not a big deal but odd.

  Her car broke down while she was working by me, and of course I fixed the alternator but it took a couple days.   150 dollars and two days later she calls me from work and I tell her the good news that the car is fixed and she says can you have it warmed up for me so I can go right home.  OK no real big deal but im thinking that is a little rude. I ask her to come over two days later to do what I don’t remember but we had a plan and she says I just spent two days with you, I cant handle this, you are clinging, I don’t want a man that…  bla bla and I look like (or feel like) im this heel that desperately needs her.   Her point of view is like this a lot.

  Gas lighting when she rages.  Then not backing down about what she said.  Telling me im crazy, need help and so forth.

  Breaking up with me for the stupidest ___ ever, then after saying she is done she will want to exact revenge, telling me I owe her money, or ill give the phone back when minutes are up.  Really childish ___!

  When we were using she would steal stuff from me and deny it all the time.

  Is this for real or just a game where sh e wants me to prove my love?   I have never done anything wrong and she has NO friends Period!

[Conundrum]

Is this for real or just a game... .?   

Yes a relationship with a disordered person is a game of chance, though the material question is--in the long run does either participant have the advantage?

"The mathematics of gambling are a collection of probability applications encountered in games of chance and can be included in game theory. From a mathematical point of view, the games of chance are experiments generating various types of aleatory events, the probability of which can be calculated by using the properties of probability on a finite space of events."

Games of chance are not merely pure applications of probability calculus and gaming situations are not just isolated events whose numerical probability is well established through mathematical methods; they are also games whose progress is influenced by human action. In gambling, the human element has a striking character. The player is not only interested in the mathematical probability of the various gaming events, but he or she has expectations from the games while a major interaction exists. To obtain favorable results from this interaction, gamblers take into account all possible information, including statistics, to build gaming strategies. The predicted future gain or loss is called expectation or expected value and is the sum of the probability of each possible outcome of the experiment multiplied by its payoff (value). Thus, it represents the average amount one expects to win per bet if bets with identical odds are repeated many times. A game or situation in which the expected value for the player is zero (no net gain nor loss) is called a fair game. The attribute fair refers not to the technical process of the game, but to the chance balance house (bank)–player."

Stratagem, have been developed for both the disordered person (evidence based therapies) and the non (SET, don't JADE) etc., in the hopes that this will increase the relational odds for the couple (and individuals) to succeed. Whether that is sustainable/effective over the long run is... .?

Without a stratagem, the non/pwBPD relationship remains a game of chance without the reasonable expectation of "traditional" value, though perhaps probabilities can be modeled via the anecdotal evidence apparent on this board. See, cat and mouse theory... .

Therefore, the relevant question for any participant in this sort of game of chance relationship becomes--what is the foreseeable outcome, and do I radically accept that?

Consequently, if you desire the passionately disordered who often burn bight, then don't pine for stability; if you desire stability, then don't accept the disordered; if you desire a combination of the two, then walk the tightrope but don't complain that there is no predictable outcome.

After all, isn't this game of chance about that amorphous place between want and need, in which we trace our destiny lines' in the hopes that they will conform to our dreams. They seldom do--but that's ok--we're human and all things change.

[rotiroti]

Wow thank you conundrum... i think the irrational part of me that wants to go running back is putting my hopes on this low probability (if that makes sense)




stay strong everyone! I know deep down that there is nothing to work on if i were to return... and it's liberating and empowering to think that I can consider moving on with life without my BPDex

[Pacify]

I know deep down that there is nothing to work on if i were to return...

This is true, she has absolutely nothing to offer.   I guess the hard part is trying to figure out why I care for someone who is abusive and mean.

  Its just hard to be dumped by someone who has nothing and can give less.  what is wrong with me?

[fromheeltoheal]

Nice Conundrum!  So what's it gonna be peeps, do we go all-in at a game of high stakes poker, or is some sedate cribbage more our speed?  Or maybe we like the kind of casino where the odds change on the weekends.  Or in the bedroom.  Me, I thought I was playing a fair game, one with 50/50 odds, but no, the payoffs were much bigger, as were the losses, the dealer lied about the rules, and the pit boss was a real b___ after a while.  Time to cash out while I still have my shirt, but at least the drinks were 'free'.

[rotiroti]

Nice Conundrum!  So what's it gonna be peeps, do we go all-in at a game of high stakes poker, or is some sedate cribbage more our speed?  Or maybe we like the kind of casino where the odds change on the weekends.  Or in the bedroom.  Me, I thought I was playing a fair game, one with 50/50 odds, but no, the payoffs were much bigger, as were the losses, the dealer lied about the rules, and the pit boss was a real b___ after a while.  Time to cash out while I still have my shirt, but at least the drinks were 'free'.

Seriously, i thank the stars that I got out... I still wake up from cold sweats... .do the nightmares get better?

[fromheeltoheal]

Seriously, i thank the stars that I got out... I still wake up from cold sweats... .do the nightmares get better?

A borderline's need to attach to other people to feel whole, and their skill at doing it since it's survival-based, touches us to the very core of who we are, and then when that goes away we can get shaken to our core, our world upended, the severity of which proportional to how healthy we were going into it and what our beliefs are around it.  So my version is the dreams, or nightmares, depending, is our subconscious being busy doing its work when we're asleep, rewiring us to untangle things and adjust to our new reality post-relationship.  My ex made an appearance in my dreams almost nightly, dreams in color, the strong ones, and different situations but always the same theme, she was with some stud and dissing me; that lasted for maybe 6 months and then just stopped entirely.  Rewiring complete.  She hasn't made an appearance in a long time, last night's was a rerun of my bookkeeper naked in my hot tub, so we're back to 'normal'.

You didn't ask for advice, but I say let it happen, go with it, let your brain do it's work, get help if you need it, it will pass and a revised you will emerge.  Take care of you!

[rotiroti]

Seriously, i thank the stars that I got out... I still wake up from cold sweats... .do the nightmares get better?

A borderline's need to attach to other people to feel whole, and their skill at doing it since it's survival-based, touches us to the very core of who we are, and then when that goes away we can get shaken to our core, our world upended, the severity of which proportional to how healthy we were going into it and what our beliefs are around it.  So my version is the dreams, or nightmares, depending, is our subconscious being busy doing its work when we're asleep, rewiring us to untangle things and adjust to our new reality post-relationship.  My ex made an appearance in my dreams almost nightly, dreams in color, the strong ones, and different situations but always the same theme, she was with some stud and dissing me; that lasted for maybe 6 months and then just stopped entirely.  Rewiring complete.  She hasn't made an appearance in a long time, last night's was a rerun of my bookkeeper naked in my hot tub, so we're back to 'normal'.

You didn't ask for advice, but I say let it happen, go with it, let your brain do it's work, get help if you need it, it will pass and a revised you will emerge.  Take care of you!

thank you fromheeltoheal for your kind words of hope. Seriously, walking on eggshells and hiding the pain away... i forgot it's normal to own up to feelings to process them. I look forward to the day the nightmares end

btw i love your insightful posts that I see throughout the forum. Thanks for sharing your experiences so openly

[Chicken Soup]

[/quote last night's was a rerun of my bookkeeper naked in my hot tub, so we're back to 'normal'.

Thank you for the laugh.  After two tense evenings with my partner, I needed that.

[FannyB]

Consequently, if you desire the passionately disordered who often burn bight, then don't pine for stability; if you desire stability, then don't accept the disordered; if you desire a combination of the two, then walk the tightrope but don't complain that there is no predictable outcome.

Conundrum

Brilliantly succinct. Don't drive a Ferrari and complain about the fuel consumption! 

[Beach_Babe]

I know for sure she had suffered traumas, she always kept it really vague she told me that she used to be a drug addict, forced into prostitution, got raped .

Mine claimed to have been raped by a ghost.