It appears I will have to "take" my part of the compromise

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I haven't been on the internet much for a while... .this site or anywhere else.  I've been focusing on doing fun things with my wife... and whatever kids are around.

Wife has said how much fun she is having... .this morning we had one of the best intimate times (sex) in a long time.  She said so... .and I agreed.

About an hour after that... .when we started discussing 4th of July plans... .it all fell apart.  She had asked to send kids to  her parents and have them back on 4th of July so we could have family time then... .

I had agreed as this would meant that all kids have been to her parents in month of June... and she had expressed this as her top priority... .and been fairly consistent (for her) on this being what she wanted.

So... .I delivered.

Well... .my expectation that the family would be together for the 4th was dismissed as "ridiculous"... .protested the description of my feelings (I don't describe her feelings or desires as negative or positive and request her to give me same benefit)... .and to her credit... .she backed off.

However... she started coming up with all sorts of reasons and plans why kids needed to stay away longer but now is offering a promise that we will be together last week of July... .and she will be fine excluding other people then.  Unless she feels like doing something else... .and then she will do what she wants... .she won't be told what to do.

Yep... .that is what she said. 

I asked for understanding on how we compromise... .where the compromise is and she refused to talk about it... instead wanting to talk about all the times she "rolled with it" in the past... .and now it was time for her to get her due... .

The crux of her argument seems to revolve around an interview I have when she is not going to be her (she is flying away with her sister for a week... .in two weeks time).  Since I don't know when my interview is exactly... .and don't have "firm" childcare plans for that time when she is gone... .the ONLY way it will be ok is to send the D4 and D2 away now so a 5-6 hour block of need for childcare will be guaranteed to be ok.

My answer to this was simple... .NO

She has decided to fly away with her sister... .I am a capable parent and will be able to handle things in her absence.

I don't see myself moving from this position... and based on past performance of deals where I don't get "mine" first... .there will be no family time at end of July for me.

Just like there is not going to be an intact family here ... or anywhere... for the fourth of July.  I'm not waiting another month.

So... .there was 1 week in June where we were together as a family during a camping trip... .but with other family there. 

We began the summer in and out of MC talking about our desires... .need to compromise... .etc etc.

She was clear that travelling was important... .seeing other family was important.

I was clear that "exclusive" family time was important to me.  That is me, her, 7 kids... .and nobody else.  Making memories... camping... .hiking... .just us.

Well... .literally... .there was no exclusive family time for an entire month.  None.  I kept track... watched for it.  Asked for it... .but was flexible about compromise and very obvious that I was supporting my wife's number 1 priority. 

Now... .the plan she wants to put in place puts off exclusive family time for almost another month and she complained about these "notions" that I get it my head about things like us being together on the 4th.

I only control where I go... .and my current debate is if I go on a trip where the stated intent is to give away kids to her parents. 

I don't see my self going and participating in giving away kids anymore.

I can go and be clear that I am not ok with sending kids away... .but if she and her parents don't back down... .that could be nasty scene.  I'm not afraid of that scene... .but not sure if that is good position to be in.

Not really sure the point of this post... .as I read over it. 

I matter... .my desires as a parent matter.  I have limited options to enforce that.

FF

[formflier]

I haven't been on the internet much for a while... .this site or anywhere else.  I've been focusing on doing fun things with my wife... and whatever kids are around.

Wife has said how much fun she is having... .this morning we had one of the best intimate times (sex) in a long time.  She said so... .and I agreed.

About an hour after that... .when we started discussing 4th of July plans... .it all fell apart.  She had asked to send kids to  her parents and have them back on 4th of July so we could have family time then... .

I had agreed as this would meant that all kids have been to her parents in month of June... and she had expressed this as her top priority... .and been fairly consistent (for her) on this being what she wanted.

So... .I delivered.

Well... .my expectation that the family would be together for the 4th was dismissed as "ridiculous"... .protested the description of my feelings (I don't describe her feelings or desires as negative or positive and request her to give me same benefit)... .and to her credit... .she backed off.

However... she started coming up with all sorts of reasons and plans why kids needed to stay away longer but now is offering a promise that we will be together last week of July... .and she will be fine excluding other people then.  Unless she feels like doing something else... .and then she will do what she wants... .she won't be told what to do.

Yep... .that is what she said. 

I asked for understanding on how we compromise... .where the compromise is and she refused to talk about it... instead wanting to talk about all the times she "rolled with it" in the past... .and now it was time for her to get her due... .

The crux of her argument seems to revolve around an interview I have when she is not going to be her (she is flying away with her sister for a week... .in two weeks time).  Since I don't know when my interview is exactly... .and don't have "firm" childcare plans for that time when she is gone... .the ONLY way it will be ok is to send the D4 and D2 away now so a 5-6 hour block of need for childcare will be guaranteed to be ok.

My answer to this was simple... .NO

She has decided to fly away with her sister... .I am a capable parent and will be able to handle things in her absence.

I don't see myself moving from this position... and based on past performance of deals where I don't get "mine" first... .there will be no family time at end of July for me.

Just like there is not going to be an intact family here ... or anywhere... for the fourth of July.  I'm not waiting another month.

So... .there was 1 week in June where we were together as a family during a camping trip... .but with other family there. 

We began the summer in and out of MC talking about our desires... .need to compromise... .etc etc.

She was clear that travelling was important... .seeing other family was important.

I was clear that "exclusive" family time was important to me.  That is me, her, 7 kids... .and nobody else.  Making memories... camping... .hiking... .just us.

Well... .literally... .there was no exclusive family time for an entire month.  None.  I kept track... watched for it.  Asked for it... .but was flexible about compromise and very obvious that I was supporting my wife's number 1 priority. 

Now... .the plan she wants to put in place puts off exclusive family time for almost another month and she complained about these "notions" that I get it my head about things like us being together on the 4th.

I only control where I go... .and my current debate is if I go on a trip where the stated intent is to give away kids to her parents. 

I don't see my self going and participating in giving away kids anymore.

I can go and be clear that I am not ok with sending kids away... .but if she and her parents don't back down... .that could be nasty scene.  I'm not afraid of that scene... .but not sure if that is good position to be in.

Not really sure the point of this post... .as I read over it. 

I matter... .my desires as a parent matter.  I have limited options to enforce that.

FF

[formflier]

 

Agreements with my wife rarely work out well.

I have no idea how to have a functioning marriage without the ability to create and stick to agreements

My wife's "assumption" that she is tossing around in arguments and such is that she will "have a job again" when school starts back.

So... .a life plan that includes me assuming I am a stay at home dad... .seems to be about as much as I can "count" on now.

I had long talk with my ex brother in law today... .he divorced my wife's sister years ago.  So... I have a close up view of how divorce works with this FOO and the women that display BPD traits in it.

I've got a crappy deal... .he got a crappier deal.  He has no control over his kids... .I have little control over mine.  One of the reasons he divorced was to try to keep reason in finances... .he still went bankrupt... .but has put his finances back together now.  I have assurance that there are funds coming in to house and feed our family.  There won't be much else.   If my wife wants more... .she can go to work and earn it... .or do without.  I'll remove myself from that equation and pressure.


So... .I have this view of things that I am still a stayer... .still need to do the best I can.  Because I will have more time and more influence on my kids and their environment than if we tried to somehow separate.

We just had an interesting discussion about the summer schedule. 

She brought up divorce... .because she was tired of "this" and then she described some attitude that sounded horrible and controlling... .yet she wouldn't say who had that attitude.  I have no idea what she was talking about... .absolutely none.

She proposed a schedule and I said I would go for it if we could get rid of threatening divorce while trying to reach compromise or discuss things.

She said she wasn't threatening... .it was just an option to solve things. 

So... .I clarified my counter offer.  I would go for her summer schedule if divorce word... .option... .discussion... .insinuation... .is gone from her vocabulary.

She was quiet and surprisingly respectful as she listened to me explain my feelings and values behind my offer.  The same values and desires that want "exclusive" family time also abhor divorce... .splitting up the family.  And that I could see no way forward with divorce as an option.

She was also very clear (although calm and respectful while she said it) that she does not buy into the notion that she doesn't follow through on her agreements. 

I didn't bite on a potential offer to argue.  But reaffirmed and clarified what we were agreeing to. 

The schedule... and removal of divorce from vocabulary... .hints... insinuations... .it's not an option.

She was calm and even when she accepted the offer.

No idea where this will lead... .but this discussion seemed different.  There will still hints of unreasonableness... .but way better than discussions like this in the past.

I have one more interview scheduled... .in about two weeks.  I am a little more clear in my mind about what will happen if I don't get it... .than I am if I do get it.

Sigh... .

I'm interested in how all of this sounds to you guys that have followed my story... .

You guys are usually pretty good at asking good questions... .getting me to look at things from a different angle.



FF

[Fian]

From my experience, insisting on what you deserve in a marriage doesn't work well.  Even if they acquiesce, you can't really enjoy it because you know it was only given grudgingly.  And as a fellow Christian, insisting on what is due puts you on the path of selfishness that is difficult to defend morally (Philippians 2:3).

If you are dealing with an untrustworthy person and wish to have an agreement, insist on receiving your part of the payoff first.

I also had a boundary that my wife not talk about divorce/leaving.  In the end I gave up on the boundary.  She doesn't appear to be willing to respect it (although she does try some), and any way that I would try to enforce it would just be an escalation.  I once threatened that I would leave if she threatened to leave (she never does), but then I decided that I did not want to put that decision in her hands.  If I leave, it is because I made the choice, not because I was responding to her breaking a boundary.

[formflier]

From my experience, insisting on what you deserve in a marriage doesn't work well.  Even if they acquiesce, you can't really enjoy it because you know it was only given grudgingly.  And as a fellow Christian, insisting on what is due puts you on the path of selfishness that is difficult to defend morally (Philippians 2:3).

Yeah... .I see that point of view.

Here is my point of view.  It was offered as a compromise... .she was free to say no and keep looking at other options.  We had been through many options already that she did not want to take.

I was clear that I was not making a "do this or else"... ."this is the only way" type deal.

And... .I see a pathway forward in the r/s that I can live with if she follows through... .or if she doesn't.

1.  Working through contentious issues without her bringing up or threatening divorce.  That would seem wonderful to me.

2. If she breaks the agreement... .my remedy seems to be that I no longer work through contentious issues with her while divorce threats are there... .I'll make the best decision I can and leave it at that.   


I'm very curious how you tried to enforce the boundary and why you decided to give it up. 

Interesting verse... .hadn't looked at that in a while.  Can you expand a bit more on how you think this applies to this situation?


The Christian issue that is currently on my mind:  I am turning over in my head... .trying to get it sorted out the difference in pride and self respect.

I used to "give in" to all kinds of things... .because... .in part... .I didn't want to appear to be prideful.  I now think that I have/had an incorrect view of the concept... .but I'm still sorting that out.  Any thoughts on this?

FF

[babyducks]

My partner has very poor problem solving, decision making and compromising skills.   On the best days they are rudimentary.   With highly significant issues or items they can disappear all together.   

When we hit one of these issues, typically she will begin by defining or describing the 'issue' in such a way that absolutely paints me into a corner with no room to maneuver or negotiate.   Talk about black and white thinking.   There is usually a lot of the trade mark BPD type thinking involved.  This has ALWAYS been this way.   It, whatever it is, is completely horrible and totally unfair to her.   My thoughts, feelings, emotions are totally irrelevant and need to change instantly.   And it's guaranteed that her solution is the most destructive one possible and one that will likely do the most damage to the relationship.  I sometimes wonder if its a subtle push, in the push/pull dynamic.   That in some way when she is fatigued with the r/s and she wants to push it away she, perhaps unknowingly, picks an issue and precedes to use it as a wedge.

I try not to let her frame the debate when we discuss issues.     I've found that when we discuss the "status of our relationship" I usually end up the loser because it becomes a free flowing, too free flowing and nothing concrete happens.   

I also try to approach things in smaller increments with specifics.  It's not a good example but making plans with my partner can be difficult.   Deciding where to go for lunch can be tough on some days.  I usually approach things with let's do this and then go here for lunch, does that work for you?   Sometimes she says yes sometimes she says no.  I include things I like and things she likes.   and try to be fair.   She can be so impulsive that if I let things develop with out being very specific and careful about my language and input weird sh!t can happen.

You are in a tough spot.   I had noticed you were away from the boards for a while.   I had hoped you were on vacation or gone fishing or something.      Happy to have you back with us.   Sorry it's for this reason.

Hang tough.

'ducks

[Overseas1899]

FF:  my uBPDh used to threaten divorce frequently. It would tear me apart and, many times, I told him that when he says that, it takes a brick out of our foundation.  It erodes and makes me have less trust in him. It also made me avoid discussing most things with him in an effort to avoid this escalation. What stopped it?  After I had endured this frequently for, I don't know, a year or two, I told him immediately when he would bring it up, that I felt RELIEF when he said it.  He said it about three times again after that and each time, I told how relieved I would be, bring it on, show me where to sign. He doesn't say it at all anymore. It has been about 2 years. He has since told me, and he has told others who have then told me, that his worst fear is that I will leave him.

He knows that one of the many attractions I had to him was that his family doesnot believe in divorce - you work through things - thick and thin. My family divorced when I was 8 and it was a terrible experience that was dragged through the courts, culminating in me, as a 10 year old, having to speak t the judge to say who I wanted to live with.   Horrible. So I feel that my uBPDh, knowing that experience , was knowingly hitting me in an open wound by saying that.

[Cat21]

My partner has very poor problem solving, decision making and compromising skills.   On the best days they are rudimentary.   With highly significant issues or items they can disappear all together.   

When we hit one of these issues, typically she will begin by defining or describing the 'issue' in such a way that absolutely paints me into a corner with no room to maneuver or negotiate.   Talk about black and white thinking.   There is usually a lot of the trade mark BPD type thinking involved.  This has ALWAYS been this way.   It, whatever it is, is completely horrible and totally unfair to her.   My thoughts, feelings, emotions are totally irrelevant and need to change instantly.   And it's guaranteed that her solution is the most destructive one possible and one that will likely do the most damage to the relationship.  I sometimes wonder if its a subtle push, in the push/pull dynamic.   

Hi FF-

This statement by 'ducks struck me, as I recently (a few days ago) went through  a "butting of heads" with my uBPDh. His sore spot is his relationship with his NPD sister. Long story short, we are due in about 2 weeks with our first baby, and his sister informed him (not me) that she would be visiting early on, instead of later like we agreed. She manipulated him into defending her (once again), and it caused a backlash of the silent treatment; he didn't speak to me for 2 days. His mind was made up- she could visit whenever she pleases and he expects me to roll with it and never question it. Eventually, he gave up the fight and recognized that she was controlling him and he wasn't respecting me or our relationship (or decision on visitors after baby!), and he apologized. I have no idea why he turned it around so quickly, but I'm going with it!

I guess this is to say that there doesn't appear to be an easy solution other than holding firm to your boundaries and maybe not worrying about appearing to be "prideful". You're entitled to your feelings and your plans and ideas just as much as she is and I don't think backing down is necessarily seen as getting what you deserve. If you make an agreement together, that's a mutual, respectful compromise. Wanting her to maintain that agreement is just that- respect. I'm not certain of exactly how to make that easier- I'll let you know when I figure it out!

[formflier]

You are in a tough spot.   I had noticed you were away from the boards for a while.   I had hoped you were on vacation or gone fishing or something.      Happy to have you back with us.   Sorry it's for this reason.

Does chasing crawdads in a stream qualify as fishing?      With D8, D4 and D2... .that is good stuff.

Had a great hike up a mountain to some waterfalls... .absolutely top notch stuff.

My favorite is sitting around the campfire... just staring at the flames... and telling stories.

It was a great time... .and I made great memories.  There were lots of extra people there that I enjoy being around... .I really do. 

I would like to do similar things... .with "just" my family.  Or perhaps bring my dad out with to sit around the campfire some.

FF

[formflier]

When we hit one of these issues, typically she will begin by defining or describing the 'issue' in such a way that absolutely paints me into a corner with no room to maneuver or negotiate.   Talk about black and white thinking.   There is usually a lot of the trade mark BPD type thinking involved.  This has ALWAYS been this way.   It, whatever it is, is completely horrible and totally unfair to her.   My thoughts, feelings, emotions are totally irrelevant and need to change instantly.   And it's guaranteed that her solution is the most destructive one possible and one that will likely do the most damage to the relationship.  I sometimes wonder if its a subtle push, in the push/pull dynamic.   That in some way when she is fatigued with the r/s and she wants to push it away she, perhaps unknowingly, picks an issue and precedes to use it as a wedge.

Yep... .I don't think I could write out our dynamic any better.  The consequences seem different.  

The reality is that when one of our kids gets in a vehicle with a member of her FOO... .I should have no expectations on a return time.  If I set my expectations to be about plus or minus a week of the stated... .agreed on date... .that usually works out to be accurate.

I honestly don't understand how decision making works in her family... .or for my wife for that matter.  Other than to describe it as what they think is a great idea "right now"... .has "always" been that way... .and "we've been talking about that for x amount of time" seems to be the deciding factor.

Who can make claims to have "talked about that" for the longest... .seems to win... .

The thing is... .to me... .it seems that tons of things get "talked about"... .I would describe it as things are mentioned here and there with no heads up that they are serious about things.  Asking them if it is a "firm" idea they want to take action on... or "just talking"... .backs them down... ."oh no... .just something on my mind... .no big deal... ."  no ownership whatsoever... .up  until the point (usually that point is when a deadline is looming)... .they want to do it right then... .but there is no time for discussion... ."darn... wish we had talked about it earlier" (never mind that I asked earlier... .)

So... .maybe I can describe it... .I honestly have no idea how to "work it" or even "exist in it"... .

My wife will complain about how they make decisions... .and then act the same way... . 

FF

I try not to let her frame the debate when we discuss issues.     I've found that when we discuss the "status of our relationship" I usually end up the loser because it becomes a free flowing, too free flowing and nothing concrete happens.  

Ducks,

Can you expand more on how this goes... .maybe some word for word. 

Again... it seems like incredibly similar dynamics in our r/s.

FF

[babyducks]

Does chasing crawdads in a stream qualify as fishing?      With D8, D4 and D2... .that is good stuff.

Chasing crawdads absolutely qualifies as fishing!

[babyducks]

 The consequences seem different.  

The reality is that when one of our kids gets in a vehicle with a member of her FOO... .I should have no expectations on a return time.  If I set my expectations to be about plus or minus a week of the stated... .agreed on date... .that usually works out to be accurate.

Hi formflier,

Yeah the consequences are very much different.   My dBiPDSO and I don't have children, never mind seven of them.   I don't have much to offer in that regard.   I am wondering about the fine folks over on Co-parenting after the Split.   I know that you and your wife are committed to staying together.  And this is a fine board for posting about r/s dynamic stuff but it strikes me that the troops over on Co-Parenting are wizards at the stuff regarding children.   I personally think the name of the board is a little misleading because it says in the Who should post on this board descriptor exactly this:

Members in a parenting arrangement with a spouse or co-parenting with and ex-spouse, as well as, step-parents, relationship partners, and grandparents with concerns over the well-being of the children should post here. This is a board about making choices. This board is also a place to find emotional support during these lengthy and draining challenges. 

My take is that those guys over there have been in your shoes and probably knows what works and doesn't.  What do you think?

I honestly don't understand how decision making works in her family... .or for my wife for that matter.  Other than to describe it as what they think is a great idea "right now"... .has "always" been that way... .and "we've been talking about that for x amount of time" seems to be the deciding factor.

Oh yeah, it appears to me that decision making is very transitory and short term.   Which is a foreign notion to me because I am the opposite.  It takes me a long time to reach a decision and then I stick with it.   I think you and I might be alike in that regard, detailed oriented, pretty specific about dates, times and goals.   My partner is not.   It took me a long time to trip on the fact that she is not very oriented to dates and times.     I don't normally use specific examples because it feels to me like it's disrespectful to share too many details, but let me see what I can do here. 

The other night we had a moment of discord.   She had one expectation and I had another.   She started to dsyregulate.   We ended up in the living room talking about it and she explained the same refrain that is above.  This is horrible.   I had disregarded her feelings and rejected her.   I had left her waiting for me and not given her enough consideration.   (I had gone to the bathroom and laid down in the bedroom for 15 minutes to stretch a kink out of my bad back).   I listened, tried not to judge and validated what I could.   Eventually I mentioned to her "you know, from when the TV program ended to right now has been 45 minutes."  She was really surprised, it felt like she had been waiting forever so hence it must have been hours.  I said "The program ended at 8PM and now its about quarter to 9".   She was able to accept that and we got passed the 'you left me alone forever' part of the problem and got into the rest of the problem.   The key is that she was willing to accept that in this instance her feeling wasn't a fact.  She felt like she had been waiting forever.   In reality it was maybe 25 minutes.

I try not to let her frame the debate when we discuss issues.     I've found that when we discuss the "status of our relationship" I usually end up the loser because it becomes a free flowing, too free flowing and nothing concrete happens.  

Ducks,

Can you expand more on how this goes... .maybe some word for word. 

Again... it seems like incredibly similar dynamics in our r/s.

FF

I try not to let her frame the debate because we are usually arguing from two very different premises.   The way my partner explained it to me is like this.   She tells me that her needs were never meet as a child, she was always ignored, put second and promised things that were never delivered upon.   That's very real for her.   So when an issue comes up it all about how to get her needs met immediately.   Instantaneously.   If she senses her needs aren't going to be met she panics and some weird type behavior happens.   She doesn't describe it as a fear of being abandoned but as a fear of not being wanted or recognized.   It's huge for her.

When an issue comes up we are often coming at it from two different angles.   I want to compromise and reach consensus and find an agreeable 50/50 split.  Not so much with her.   She will say she wants a compromise and two seconds later say there isn't one and hers is the only way possible.   All or nothing thinking.   Compromise only exists as a tool or a score keeping weapon to enable her to get what she wants later on down the road.

Yesterday we were at the beach, where there was a fantastic display of fireworks scheduled for later in the evening.  She wanted to leave early and go home.  Okay.  We left and I drove an hour home.  Literally as I am pulling into the parking lot of the apartment complex she says I want to see fireworks, let's go up onto the roof (12 stories, not safe) and watch the local fireworks.   I said the complex isn't going to allow us on the roof.  She said oh come on it will be fun.  I said No it's not safe.  She said you are such a party pooper.   I said No I am not doing it.  She made the noises a chicken crowing would make and said you chicken.   I said Nice try I am not doing it.  She said da@mn that used to work some of the time and now it doesn't work at all anymore.   

She used to make a lot of noise about wanting compromise in our relationship and my inability to do it.   Which I bought for a while and then realized all those conversations about compromise were really another tool to get what she wanted.  In that her mentality was very much a three year trying to finagle her way and she was very good at it.  She doesn't do it much anymore and I am not sure why it changed.   I think something in therapy finally turned that switch off for her.

I don't let her define the issue for us as a couple anymore because it's not fair to me.  No matter how the language was coached from her it was mostly about her needs not being met in the moment and how to get them met.  I had a different agenda.  That's why it always felt like we were arguing from two separate perspectives, because we were.  That's why I say her solution was guaranteed to be the most destructive one possible to the r/s because it was designed to assuaged her fears at the expense of, well of everything.

I'm not sure if this makes sense or not.   and I'm out of time for the morning.   So I'm going to launch into my day.  Hope yours is a good one.

'ducks

[formflier]

 

I'm wondering about ways to "limit the scope" of a conversation.

Ducks,

How has this worked out in your r/s.

FF

[babyducks]

I'm wondering about ways to "limit the scope" of a conversation.

Ducks,

How has this worked out in your r/s.

FF

FF,

We both use phrases, like

I want to say just one thing about X right now and we can talk more about it later.

I want to stop the conversation here for now.

I want to do 30 seconds on what we spoke about before, can I ask a question ... .

I think we need to stop this conversation and come back to it later.

I think we've made good progress with this topic for now lets put it away and do something easy instead.

I've been thinking about a piece of what you said and for now I think... .

We both understand that it's important to break topics down into manageable bit size pieces and we both do it equally.  It's actually so much a fixture of our r/s now that I barely notice it.   It used to drive me nuts because it felt l nothing was getting accomplished and then I realized how often we both overloaded while talking about big ticket items.  It also used to bug me because I felt my side wasn't getting heard but eventually I grew to look at it as a way for my partner to manage her emotions in heated situations.

I have a family member who doesn't like my partner and my partner doesn't care for the family member.   It's not at all unusual for my partner to tell me I can't do (family member) today give me the short version of what's up and then let's talk about something else.

It's very common for me to say, I've heard what you said, I need to take a break from this conversation.

My partner will say I have more to say on that but I don't want to talk about it now. Let's put a bookmark in it.

I will say It's not helpful to me to discuss this any further, it actually makes it worse for me to discuss this more.  Let's let it go for now.

If we are talking about what happened on Friday night, it's a communication skill to not let the topic expand beyond Friday night.    Yes I went to the bathroom and then to stretch my back.    She thought I was coming right back.   It was a miscommunication.  I could have stuck my head back into the living room and said hey, I am stretching.   She could have asked.   It's a lot easier to "fix" a minor miscommunication than the "fix" the you never consider my feelings and walked out and left me waiting AGAIN problem.

It's a matter of turning the conversation away from the always and the never and the big ticket and steering it into the smaller details.   What's been important for us is to always end on a success.  That's why we've been able to keep doing it.   We say to each other, let's end on a success, is this a good stopping point for you?  Find a small agreement, a small place of accord, note it, celebrate it and stop the conversation.    Sometimes we can't find a success to stop on but agree it's good we stop anyhow.

'ducks

[Grey Kitty]

I've been telling you that 'negotiating' agreements with your wife doesn't work... .and I notice you are 'getting' it.

I've got two thoughts for you:

1. If it is important to do something that is against your wife's current plan, you just have to do it. Your wife won't like it and will let you know! 

2. Your (previously stated) goal of time spent with your wife and all your kids, without additional people isn't one you can personally enforce. Your kids (the older ones) are a bit like herding cats. And your wife can dysregulate and either scupper the event or make it something that you don't get what you want out of.

Radical acceptance--this is something you want... .but it just isn't going to happen as often as you want it to.

And think about the values and needs behind this desire of yours--since it is so hard to accomplish... .if you think about it, you may find that what you *want* to accomplish with this time can be accomplished with other plans. (Hopefully more feasible and more inside your own control!)

[Fian]

"2. If she breaks the agreement... .my remedy seems to be that I no longer work through contentious issues with her while divorce threats are there... .I'll make the best decision I can and leave it at that. "

This does seem like the best option for when divorce is proposed.  However, I don't think the response is severe enough that it would motivate your spouse to stop using the word.  They emphasize their point by threatening to leave, you stop the conversation, they then bring up the conversation again later without using the threat, but they know it is in your head.  The best success I have had with my wife, and just to discuss how hurtful it is for me when she brings it up.  She has tried to avoid saying it as a result.

On selfishness, The verse says to do nothing out of selfishness.  It is a tough verse, especially when it comes to relationships that are one-sided.  In a healthy relationship, it is easier to be selfless.  You focus on your spouse's needs, and they focus on yours.  Both needs end up being met, and you have the benefit of not being focused on yourself.  When your spouse is not focused on meeting your needs, then the natural tendency is to start to demand that your needs are met.  However, when I start to make those demands, I just don't feel right.   It becomes a no win situation.  Normally what happens in my marriage, is I demand what I am rightfully due and we then have a fight.  In the fight I then explain how I am feeling, and my spouse then is more sensitive to my needs in the future, and we can get back into selfless mode.  For me my goal is to communicate to my spouse when my needs are not met without having to get into a fight in the first place.

"The Christian issue that is currently on my mind:  I am turning over in my head... .trying to get it sorted out the difference in pride and self respect."

Good question.  Here are my thoughts on the subject:

• As a sinner, you deserve to spend eternity suffering in hell.  You deserve to be hurt and ridiculed.



• As a new creation in Christ, you are called to holiness and are of inestimable value.

When a person insults you, a pride response is that you don't deserve the insult and how dare they speak that way to me?  A humble response is to realize that while that insult may not be correct, you have done far worse that does deserve ridicule.  A pride response tries to control your perception of yourself by controlling how others treat you.  If people treat you nice, then you feel worthy.  A humble response doesn't need a positive environment to thrive - regardless of what others say, you are loved and valued by God.

So in my thinking, when you are able to respond in humility, you can then address the issue.  You aren't angry and thinking "How dare they?".  Instead you are focused on solving the problem.  What they think of you is secondary, because you already know what you are in Christ.

[babyducks]

Hey FF,

I've thought some more about this topic and here are some addendum.

My P used to tell me to have "hit and run" conversations.  And eventually that's what we learned to do as a couple.   Now no conversation with my partner on serious hot button issues lasts more than 10 minutes.   They tend to be very brief, and limited to very specific very detailed data exchanges and are pretty non emotional.    I now tend to walk into them with a plan already in my head, rather than trying to form one together.   

So I will say "On Thursday I have to stop at X's house.   I'll be there until like 8 or so.   Since I will be out for dinner tomorrow, I want to be sure we have something nice tonight, what would you like ?"

Sometimes she pushes back and that's fine.   I can adapt and change a plan much easier than I can try to brainstorm with her.   

I have also been thinking about what Grey Kitty said. 

I've been telling you that 'negotiating' agreements with your wife doesn't work... .and I notice you are 'getting' it.

I'm not sure what Grey meant here.    As I tried to pull it apart this is what I came up with.

When I noticed I was in an unproductive conversation or circular conversation with my partner my first instinct was to try harder to reach clarity and conclusion.  I am a pretty smart duck.   And darn if I was going to let a little communication skill stuff defeat me.   

But as An0ught explained, me pouring more energy into those types of conversations just meant that now two people where adding fuel to the fire.     I needed to stop trying.   Which ran against all my instincts for a long time.

My P told me that couples could develop the habit of unproductive communication, just like you can develop any other habit.   So I needed to break that.   It was tougher than I thought it would be.    She also told me to boil everything down to it's simplest common denominator.   If it was about what to have for dinner, make it about what to have for dinner and nothing more.   Ratcheting down the level of intensity between us took some time.   

So, I guess in a nutshell, keep it small, keep it simple, keep it light, keep it short are how I limit the scope.

'ducks

[formflier]

 

What grey is talking about... .is one of my longterm "complaints"... .is that she gets hers... .and I don't get mine.

Not always... .but a good bit of the time. 

Once she gets her part of the compromise or deal... .the rest is "forgotten" or some silly notion in my head.

Ducks,

How do you go about "herding" the conversation back to the original topic. 

I seem to "get it" that when it is off the rails... .I leave.  Really... no issues there for me.  I don't "sweat it"... .I just leave... .it seems to blow over quickly.

However... .I need to get better at "attempting" to redirect back... .when we first get off course.  I realize it may not work.

FF

[babyducks]

How do you go about "herding" the conversation back to the original topic. 

If conversation wanders or goes off the rails I stop it.  It's non productive.   I've been known to say, "this isn't getting us any place right now so let's go garden instead".  tone of voice is important here.  sounding cheerful about gardening helps.

If the conversation expands into Everything You Do Is Wrong, there is no sense in trying to herd.   My partner doesn't return to baseline that quickly.   

I let the topic rest and take the temperature every so often.   In the past I've let hot button topics rest for up to several weeks or more.

Redirecting back can be a form of invalidating. If they want to talk about X and you want to talk about Y they are going to feel invalidated.   Just like you do because you can't talk about Y.   

For me when the conversation goes off course, I validate the thoughts, ideas, emotions expressed are important but that for today I need to take things in baby steps (that's actually what I say) and  I need to talk about something else right now.

'ducks

[formflier]

 

So... .do you have conversations that go off the rails... .when there is a deadline approaching?

How do you deal with that?

In other words... .there is not a couple days time to let things rest and return to baseline.

FF

[babyducks]

We try to not let that happen.   Neither one of us is good with deadline pressures.  We both identified that lots of advance decision making time is important to us.  My partner is very good at keeping us on schedule when we have a deadline looming.   We both work this approach.  It's not me alone.   She is actually better than I am at reminding me well in advance of things.   

And some times no matter what, thing go off the rails.   The difference now is that they are off the rails for minutes rather than hours or days and it doesn't jeopardize our r/s.