What do I do with phone tracking/sending text messages from my daughter's number

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Quick backstory:

     My D12 just got back from four weeks with her possible BPD dad.  I had a very hard time contacting her and I received hate mail/texts in the process of trying to reach her.  I sent him an email that she could bring her phone from our house, so I will be able to contact her.  In response, he gave her a newer phone (was his wife's, but setup a number for her) the last few days she was with him and she brought it back.  I sent an email telling him that she had a great time and we would let her use the new phone in place of the one she already has, but would put a curfew on it (She stays up til midnight/one in the morning when she is with him and I have to try to get her back into regular sleep hours for school).



     Of course he does display the obvious BPD, trying to be in control, the parent that gives her expensive phones, just because, with games she would not normally be allowed to play more than an hour/daily, and the parent that sends texts to alienate her from me.

     I'm not worried about the control as much as I am about the kind of person he is and the long con he might be pulling.  The carrier allows cloud services for messages and a parent platform to monitor the phone without it being shown on the phone.  She will not be able to take the phone to friends or relative's houses and I will never be able to explain why to her.  He could send texts through another computer and it will show up on my phone with her phone number.

     I don't know if I am being paranoid, but he is very intellegent/computer savvy and he has done many horrible things.  I want to ask the phone service if they can report any additional computers attached to D12's account (if not to me, then to athorities), but I don't want to get in trouble for asking.  I'll definetly check with L, but does anyone have this problem/know what point makes it illegal.  I'm tired and just want to feel slightly more secure.

    Please help me with advice/your experiences.  Thank you.

[ambivalentmom]

Quick backstory:

     My D12 just got back from four weeks with her possible BPD dad.  I had a very hard time contacting her and I received hate mail/texts in the process of trying to reach her.  I sent him an email that she could bring her phone from our house, so I will be able to contact her.  In response, he gave her a newer phone (was his wife's, but setup a number for her) the last few days she was with him and she brought it back.  I sent an email telling him that she had a great time and we would let her use the new phone in place of the one she already has, but would put a curfew on it (She stays up til midnight/one in the morning when she is with him and I have to try to get her back into regular sleep hours for school).



     Of course he does display the obvious BPD, trying to be in control, the parent that gives her expensive phones, just because, with games she would not normally be allowed to play more than an hour/daily, and the parent that sends texts to alienate her from me.

     I'm not worried about the control as much as I am about the kind of person he is and the long con he might be pulling.  The carrier allows cloud services for messages and a parent platform to monitor the phone without it being shown on the phone.  She will not be able to take the phone to friends or relative's houses and I will never be able to explain why to her.  He could send texts through another computer and it will show up on my phone with her phone number.

     I don't know if I am being paranoid, but he is very intellegent/computer savvy and he has done many horrible things.  I want to ask the phone service if they can report any additional computers attached to D12's account (if not to me, then to athorities), but I don't want to get in trouble for asking.  I'll definetly check with L, but does anyone have this problem/know what point makes it illegal.  I'm tired and just want to feel slightly more secure.

    Please help me with advice/your experiences.  Thank you.

[Thunderstruck]

So I'm a bit confused. She has a new phone on BPDdad's phone plan? It's no longer on your phone plan?

Can you switch the phone to your plan so he can't have the parental controls? And reset the phone to stock condition to get rid of anything installed?

[momtara]

Sometimes if you feel something is wrong, it probably is.

Can he GPS track her whereabouts through the phone too?

Who sent the hate messages, your ex, or your daughter?

It's not so bad for him to pay for the phone, but if he can track who she's calling, and if it's going to be a burden to you, and it could help him control you or her, you may think twice about it. Maybe she could "lose" it and you could get her another one if you start to get worried.

It's ok to be paranoid. You could be totally wrong. But sometimes not.

[Thunderstruck]

Sometimes if you feel something is wrong, it probably is.

Can he GPS track her whereabouts through the phone too?

Who sent the hate messages, your ex, or your daughter?

It's not so bad for him to pay for the phone, but if he can track who she's calling, and if it's going to be a burden to you, and it could help him control you or her, you may think twice about it. Maybe she could "lose" it and you could get her another one if you start to get worried.

It's ok to be paranoid. You could be totally wrong. But sometimes not.

I should add, you're probably not paranoid. We tried buying a phone for my SD (we gave her an old school phone to take to uBPDbm's so things couldn't be downloaded and installed). uBPDbm used it to text us hate messages. She would even try to mimic a child's voice. It's really creepy that she does this. The phone only lasted a short while. uBPDbm wanted the control so she bought SD one of her own (that never came to our house). No point to having two phones so we stopped using the one we provided. uBPDbm stopped paying the bill for hers a few months later and now SD has zero phones (which is fine, she's only 10 now). Such drama over a stupid phone. I don't even know how we'll handle it in a few years.

[ForeverDad]

Computers can have trojans, worms, viruses and more from anywhere.  It fuels a huge antivirus industry.  If specifically targeted then spyware and keyloggers could be added.  We often say here that if the problem person has electronic or physical access to a computer, even once, then it cannot be trusted to be clean.  Solutions are to get it professionally sanitized with scanners and checkers, or even drives wiped and reformatted and clean installs of the operating systems.

Phones are still a bit of a question mark, only recently has more attention been given to improving security.  Some antivirus companies are finally branching out into phone security.  There have been reports of apps that can be loaded that leave no footprint, can monitor sounds even when turned off, etc.  I don't know how much of that is true, actually, I'm sure it's true but not to what extent.  Add to the dilemma that phone numbers can be spoofed so you can't be absolutely sure where a text or call came from.

You may decide that she can't have the phone he controls on your parenting time.  And if you give her a phone then she can't take it anywhere he can have access to it.  Paranoid?  Maybe.  Valid concern?  Probably, especially if ex could do something or find apps or people who could do something.

Or you may decide to set some other structure and rules to her phone usage.

There are pros and cons to any decision.  Ponder the matter and determine what is best (or least undesirable) in your situation.

[livednlearned]

Hi ambivalent mom,

I feel for you. Like your ex, mine was computer savvy and I was very paranoid about my son's cell phone.

I bought my son's smart phone, and was convinced N/BPDx had installed surveillance software on it while S14 had it at his dad's house. Some of the surveillance software packages can record F2F conversations up to 15 feet away even when the phone is turned off. And that software is relatively inexpensive: $125 and up. You can apparently tell if that software is on the phone if the phone gets very hot, and if it runs down the battery (suddenly) very quickly.

I took my son's phone to a forensic IT detective.  They run a program to determine if large audio files are being sent. It's a felony in my state to install surveillance software on a phone that you do not own, and do not pay for the plan. While there was evidence of large audio files being sent, I decided instead to get rid of the phone and bought S14 a regular cell phone. N/BPDx was beside himself, accusing me of acting unilaterally, etc. He also gave S14 a tablet and a Kindle, but wouldn't let him bring them to the house until I signed a document agreeing to never touch the devices. Eventually, S14 came home with them but never uses them -- they aren't things he is interested in.

If you suspect some kind of surveillance program on the phone, it's up to you to decide how your D communicates when she is at your house. Maybe establish rules about which phone she uses to communicate with her dad. It's parallel parenting with electronics. Your H can legally install surveillance software on her phone because he bought it, and is paying for the plan.

I've been teaching my son about tech privacy since he has been going online, so I had a frank conversation with him. Do you feel that you could have a frank conversation with your ex about whether there is a parental monitoring package on your D's phone? Would you feel comfortable establishing a paper trail of your concerns?

When N/BPDx told me he was giving electronics to S14, I made it clear that I had concerns about safety/security and privacy while they were in my home, and would not agree to his terms (ie. not touching the devices). I tell S14 that he cannot expect privacy on his devices, whether it's from me or anyone else. Because that's the truth -- it feels like privacy, it's not real privacy. I will look at his computer if I feel uncomfortable about my own privacy or his being violated.

It took me a long time to draft an email -- I had help from my T -- to explain to N/BPDx what the policy about electronics was in my home. After he received that note and got angry at me, he suddenly let S14 have the devices. I think he uninstalled things and decided to back off whatever he was planning.

[ambivalentmom]

So we had a phone/plan for my D12, but I wasn't comfortable with her taking it to her dad's.  I've seen the survellence software online that records/takes pics when the phone is off.  I didn't want it to come back with anything.  Because of extremely limited contact for the third year in a row, I sent him an email telling him that me and D12 talked about ways we can contact each other while she is with him and we agreed that she could start taking her phone to his house.  He responded by giving her a new phone/plan in his name. 


I'm also wondering if she already had that number, sneaking a phone into our house previously.  The number was from an old area code, but the phone is new.  I asked if that's her new number, her response was that she just got that phone.  That's how he used to lie, kind of manipulation of the truth and misdirection (she didn't just say "yes".  I'm more worried about him reading/writing texts on her account and GPS.  He has a different phone provider and I researched the plan and it does have both capabilities.


So I'll have to politely decline and send the phone back, set my plan up again, and buy her a new phone to match the one she has, so she's not upset with us sending it back.  Also send an email to L about requirements to access phone texts.  He sent texts to me telling me to stop harrassing his wife and he wasn't going to let me harrass his SD (I had a conversation with his wife and not sure why I would want to talk to his SD).  My D12 asked me about it when she got home and was very defensive and said I was harrassing her.  I didn't mention that her dad wasn't talking about her, I told her that the word was not being used correctly in that case, and I was sorry she knew about that.  She should not be involved with those kinds of things, just know that her mom and dad both love her very much and want her to be happy.


(WISHS:  My new favorite acronym I just invented (What I should have said) and I can use it whenever I want to fantisize about the things I could have said, but wouldn't really because it won't help anything.)   


(my WISHS: Maybe I could suggest to pBPDex that he can use the saved money from the phone bill to pay the child support he's behind on)

[ForeverDad]

... .just know that her mom and dad both love her very much ... .

While it sounds nice it can also be invalidating if she is aware of her father's inappropriate actions using her and her phone as some sort of shield, shooting at you from behind a blind.

Maybe it's not invalidating but I do see it as a real risk.  While she should not be put in the middle, if she is aware of some of these things then you could be invalidating her observations, conclusions and judgments.  While you can speak for yourself, you have to be careful about speaking for dad.  IMHO.  Others may wish to adjust or restate my thoughts.  If so, their observations are welcome.

[ambivalentmom]

Thank you all for your thoughts and support.  I will be talking to D12 this weekend about switching phone plans back and getting a new phone to replace hers again.  I also left a message with T about setting up an appointment.  I think I will talk to T about invalidating D12 and phrases like "mom and dad both love her very much".  Maybe T can also help talk D12 through why her dad might say things like "harass" and that will validate her because she is concerned about this.

I know the conversations D12 is involved in is not healthy for her, but it's mainly because it would put her in-between her mom and dad, not because of her age or because she can't understand/handle it.  I was also advised to not talk about prior abuse/problems to his current wife because it would make it harder for her in a similar way.  I hope my T can find a way to help me explain this to D12 without actually mentioning his wife.

[ForeverDad]

why her dad might say things like "harass"

Most people consider harassment as being bothered, no huge deal.  A couple decades ago I concluded there were two categories of people who viewed 'harassment' claims seriously, a potentially scary combination.

• Courts view harassment as a serious hot-button legal matter



• Acting-out disordered people use such threats and allegations as weapons