Court today, thanks to all who helped

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Brief note to say that court went extremely well today, thanks in part to the 2 years of advice I've gotten here. From Livedandlearned ":)on't emote to your lawyer" ; "the judge may not give you all of what you want, but will probably give you some, so ask for more than you want" ; "you've made mistakes. you will make more. it's ok, learn from them" to some of the guys (David and/or Mutt I think, and others, I will have to look back) suggesting that boundaries will improve my situation.

I am a little worried, because we all know that sometimes 'winning' vs. a personality disordered person can just make them unravel, and with kids in the picture, it's not what I want to happen. So I do walk on eggshells. I really should have gone to court a year ago and was afraid.

Besides getting a few finetunes I wanted today, I was also awarded atty fees. Now ex has to pay his atty, pay mine (they agreed on a set fee that's not too high, but still) and he has to pay for a PC. He is going to be very angry. And this is his weekend with the kids.

I really don't care about money (other than being in credit card debt now) so I am hoping i did the right thing for asking - it is a real concern to have someone angry, mentally ill, and facing stiff fees.

I know some may tell me not to worry. But I gonna worry... .

Anyway, what I learned: My lawyer is tough in court. She doesn't say much to me outside of court. Lesson learned today is that sometimes, what happens has to come 50 percent from you and 50 percent from your laywer - not 100 percent from your lawyer (depending on how good or busy she is) because they just don't know about pers disorders or your unique concerns, but you also have to trust them a bit because they know the ins and outs of court and sometimes the judges. They're a tool and you have to come to the plate to use them wisely.

My L actually thought I was asking for too much and was afraid of upsetting our new judge (who has a rep for being tough). But I pushed her to ask for more than we wanted, while still being reasonable. She tried to ask my ex's attorney to compromise and he would not. The judge seemed unhappy with that. Judge also kept mentioning the best interests of the children, of course.

So we have a new parent coordinator who I think is pretty good. My ex does NOT want a PC under any circumstances, especially one who will talk to his therapists, so he is unhappy. Even his L tried to convince him to have a PC.

Funnily enough, my ex's therapist started talking about what a nice guy he is, and the judge was all "Yes, but many of us in life have our quirks, we may have various mental health issues, personality disorders... ."

Hmmm, she was paying a lot of attention. My L and I of course never mentioned PD's.

So I am a little relieved and a little worried.

[momtara]

Brief note to say that court went extremely well today, thanks in part to the 2 years of advice I've gotten here. From Livedandlearned ":)on't emote to your lawyer" ; "the judge may not give you all of what you want, but will probably give you some, so ask for more than you want" ; "you've made mistakes. you will make more. it's ok, learn from them" to some of the guys (David and/or Mutt I think, and others, I will have to look back) suggesting that boundaries will improve my situation.

I am a little worried, because we all know that sometimes 'winning' vs. a personality disordered person can just make them unravel, and with kids in the picture, it's not what I want to happen. So I do walk on eggshells. I really should have gone to court a year ago and was afraid.

Besides getting a few finetunes I wanted today, I was also awarded atty fees. Now ex has to pay his atty, pay mine (they agreed on a set fee that's not too high, but still) and he has to pay for a PC. He is going to be very angry. And this is his weekend with the kids.

I really don't care about money (other than being in credit card debt now) so I am hoping i did the right thing for asking - it is a real concern to have someone angry, mentally ill, and facing stiff fees.

I know some may tell me not to worry. But I gonna worry... .

Anyway, what I learned: My lawyer is tough in court. She doesn't say much to me outside of court. Lesson learned today is that sometimes, what happens has to come 50 percent from you and 50 percent from your laywer - not 100 percent from your lawyer (depending on how good or busy she is) because they just don't know about pers disorders or your unique concerns, but you also have to trust them a bit because they know the ins and outs of court and sometimes the judges. They're a tool and you have to come to the plate to use them wisely.

My L actually thought I was asking for too much and was afraid of upsetting our new judge (who has a rep for being tough). But I pushed her to ask for more than we wanted, while still being reasonable. She tried to ask my ex's attorney to compromise and he would not. The judge seemed unhappy with that. Judge also kept mentioning the best interests of the children, of course.

So we have a new parent coordinator who I think is pretty good. My ex does NOT want a PC under any circumstances, especially one who will talk to his therapists, so he is unhappy. Even his L tried to convince him to have a PC.

Funnily enough, my ex's therapist started talking about what a nice guy he is, and the judge was all "Yes, but many of us in life have our quirks, we may have various mental health issues, personality disorders... ."

Hmmm, she was paying a lot of attention. My L and I of course never mentioned PD's.

So I am a little relieved and a little worried.

[ForeverDad]

Sadly, pushback - the 'extinction bursts' trying to undermine new boundaries - is probably likely.  So if you exchange in person have your pocket recorder working just in case and if it gets bad then call the emergency responders.  But how he reacts and whatever happens (or doesn't happen) is up to him, not you.  You set firm but reasonable boundaries, court has agreed with it and so you proceed from there.

You have had a hard time holding to the rules and orders, so be aware that you shouldn't feel guilted or obligated to weaken them.  On second thought, you can feel guilted or obligated - it's okay to feel - but don't let them guide your actions, don't give back or undo what the court just gave you!

Remember, he will try to make it about the negatives, you keep redirecting at the positives instead... .you're not trying to hurt him, you're becoming a good parent and your children will benefit!

[momtara]

Yes, the temptation is to undo or step back, but I'm not doing it. That is all good advice as always. And YES, Forever Dad, you were the one I was forgetting. Your help and ideas have been invaluable. I have to reread the old threads to see who else helped, because there were some real words of wisdom that stayed in my mind and guided my actions.

The judge really "got it." Part of that was that I knew what to push for and how. Part of that was my attorney. And part of that was of course my ex and silly things he put in his response to my order. But it all worked out. I feel very relieved today - and will feel more if this weekend goes ok.

[momtara]

Oh, I just reread my post, 2 corrections:

"Funnily enough, my ex's therapist started talking about what a nice guy he is, and the judge was all "Yes, but many of us in life have our quirks... ."  I meant his LAWYER started talking about that.

Also, I think Livedandlearned said "You have made mistakes. You will make more. Your children are fine... ." Which kind of stopped me a tiny bit from beating myself up all the time. But I do beat myself up sometimes. I just hope things improve now.

[livednlearned]

I am exhaling for you! Court is stressful, whew. I always got a migraine the day of court. Thankfully you have this one under your belt and I'm proud of you for directing your L so expertly  . Five years ago I was such a mouse with my L, and then I figured out how things work and gained her respect. I bet your L is feeling that way toward you.

My T helped me learn how to handle some of the post-court drama. Bluff your nonchalance if you can -- you don't want your ex to know that you're so worried. If he doesn't think there's a button, he is less likely to push it. He may not come pick the kids up, or won't bring them back on time --  try to hang in there and let his extinction burst pass without letting him know how you feel emotionally. That doesn't mean ignore things, it just means keeping your emotions as beige and neutral and bland as possible. I know this is incredibly hard to do! I have almost thrown up from the stress, but kept listening to my T, who always always always counseled me to keep a cool head. Toward the end of my court battles, I could see my ex run out of ideas. He sort of gave up, although was always game to send mean emails. That never got old for him    He seemed to realize that I was not going to participate in the drama, and so it didn't engage him as much anymore.

It may be hard to get attorney's fees from your ex. But I found that the non-compliance with the judge's orders seemed to stack up like it's own kind of currency. Not complying with court orders will chip away at his credibility, so it will get harder for him to hide the mental illness issues. Toward the end of my court stuff, it started to feel a lot less stressful because I could see things swing my way. Everyone knew something was wrong with N/BPDx. Maybe the same will happen for you, in the event you have to return to court one day... .hopefully not!

If anything, I hope it gives you some confidence to go with your instincts. 

[ForeverDad]

Every court order (except the last one) always left my ex feeling entitled, despite each one improving the order in my favor.  She walked out still feeling she could control me, make demands and reinterpret the order to suit herself.  But the last one where I got majority time during the school year in addition to the custody I had gotten before - and son approaching his teen years - finally deflated her Mother Always Knows Best attitude.  She still had it but it was finally subdued and, more importantly, manageable.

Fortunately you've had good orders, you've been in charge virtually from the start.  But his mental instability has been a problem.  It looks like now you are approaching a place where you too can find an equilibrium, something workable.  Basically what you need most is the discretion to tell him Yes or No on visitations, basically depending on his state of mind.

Stable = okay for visitation

Concerning = no visitation right now

Courts generally don't like to leave visitation decisions up to one parent but over time you've shown you can be trusted to be watching out for the children rather than obstructive.  You're pretty close to that point if not already there.

[momtara]

Thanks! You are a star, Livedandlearned. The hours you spend here, and the intuitive advice you give, are invaluable.

Just in the last two hours I am realizing how constantly on edge I have been for two years, and how much emotional energy (and genuine time) I have spent worrying about him and dealing with his attempts to engage. That battle isn't necessarily over, but it's a shame how much trauma I put myself thru over the past year figuring out what to do. Those hours could have been spent so much better. And I was always putting up walls with people and running out of work and stuff because I had to deal with ex's nonsense and my worries. I paid 100 percent for the PC to avoid triggering him, but I could never take full advantage of her for that reason, was always worried about paying those steep hourly fees.

I can see why I was mousy last time around - my kids were younger and more helpless, ex is scary, and my lawyer (like always) didn't talk to me enough and never said to me, hey, you have a strong case - which really would have helped. So I wimped out. Sometimes we do need to tiptoe or be cautious, but I did it too much and for too long. Yes, the weekend may go just fine, and I will be vigilant but not let on any concerns. At least my ex doesn't have guns and that stuff (those cases are really scary). Anyway, thanks again... .

ForeverDad, yes, past PC's have encouraged me to call authorities if I need to. I suppose in a way, his high functioning-ness has worked against him, because he allowed me in the beginning to know stuff about his therapy, and he kept going instead of dropping it completely.

My L said this morning, before court, that judges are moving away from appointing PC's in my state and she had an uphill battle to convince our judge to appoint one. Instead, our judge started talking and everything she said was spot on and almost reading our minds. My ex asked for more parenting time and she said, well you can talk about that with the PC. Pretty much what I told him a month ago. She was very focused on his mental health issues and seemed convinced that he had some. I also managed to get a last minute letter from our last PC that wasn't overly deep but it still made our problems clear.

[momtara]

One more thing I learned in court today - attorneys love to say "I think we can all agree that... ."

They must feel very generous when they agree on stuff. Heh heh.

Thanks again to Livedandlearned AND Foreverdad who has also been so patient and insightful with me. Clearly you are a good dad.

[david]

Congrats ! Stay focused on the kids and things will work out for the better.

Things started going my way in court and I learned to stay as uninteresting to my ex as possible. I no longer react to anything she does and that really has helped with our boys. In the beginning she tried to use them to get me upset but when she got no reaction from me it settled down.

Just this last Thursday I picked S17 up at school. It was my day. S12 gets out an hour later. I drove to his mom's so he could get some of his and his brothers things. That is not unusual. He told me he had to use the bathroom and would be a while. I had to get some gas for the car so I told him I would come back in 20 minutes. I waited for him to get into his mom's place. She refuses to give him keys to her place and that is between him and her. He has keys to my place and he is very responsible. Anyway, ex was not in a good mood and she refused to let him use "her" bathroom. He came back to the car pretty upset. I listened and said we could just go to a pizza place nearby and get a slice and he could use their bathroom. Yes, it did upset me that his mom would not let him use her bathroom. Who in their right mind would do something like that. I think I just answered my own question. 

Sounds like you are learning how to play the game. Stay focused and you will continue to do good for your kids and yourself.

[momtara]

That's a little sadistic. Well, they need attention badly and I guess this is how they engage. Good for you! Yes, I am learning. Trying to set boundaries, not react.

Interestingly, ex already sent me a text meant to annoy me, so I simply replied, "Fair enough." I wanted to reply somehow, but pretty even handed.

[momtara]

Oh, one more memory from today. Ex's lawyer said, "the status quo has been that momtara has been paying 100 percent of parent coordinator fees." judge said, "Well, what do they say on wall street? past performance does not indicate future earnings." And she made him pay 50 percent which he should.

[momtara]

Oh, one more lesson (things keep coming back to me). A few weeks ago, my L called my PC to ask for a letter. My PC called my L back but my L went on vacation and then got busy and never responded, which kinda sucked. So I stepped up to the plate. Last week I emailed my PC myself and asked her to please write a letter. Didn't hear back from a few days, so I called her. My email had ended up in PC's spam folder, but she got it out and wrote me the letter.

My L said the judge probably would rule it inadmissable this late, but she still submitted it, and my ex sent a written response. My ex's L said the letter should not be accepted.

Apparently it was accepted, because the judge quoted from it during our hearing, and it actually seemed to sway her. It was information she found useful. Plus the PC's phone number was on it so she could have called to discuss further.

Lessons I learned: 1) Painful as it is, sometimes I have to be my own lawyer (preparing for court was a constant effort - was I ever doing enough? I think I spent hours at work prepping) and 2) Letters from experts can really matter more than what you, me, or our L's say, depending. It's different for every judge and every state, but I just thought I'd note all this stuff before I forget. If I see someone in a similar situation maybe it will be helpful.

[HopefulDad]

Use the fact that he has to pay your legal fees to your advantage, but don't abuse it.  Try negotiating in good faith moving forward.  You won't even have to remind him that he's on the hook for your lawyer costs should it go to court.  He'll remember.  He may suddenly be very open to compromise without lawyers involved under such circumstances.

I say don't abuse it in case he can later make a case that you are using this payment arrangement to negotiate in bad faith to just get what you want.

[momtara]

Well, I am hoping to never have to go back to court. I actually didn't care so so much about getting the lawyer's fees (and my lawyer actually gave a suggested amount which is well below what she should be billing for, so I may have to make some up). I did this so that hopefully we'll stay out of court in the future. I spent the last year tiptoeing around him and letting him intimidate me about stuff, but I wanted to at least get a parent coordinator so we could coparent together better. Hopefully from this point things will improve. But I got lucky and I know that as a mom who already has most custody, I started from a better place than some (especially some dads who are discriminated against or lied about).

[livednlearned]

Use the fact that he has to pay your legal fees to your advantage, but don't abuse it.  

I say don't abuse it in case he can later make a case that you are using this payment arrangement to negotiate in bad faith to just get what you want.

I'm not sure I follow how momtara could abuse her ex with the legal sanctions? What would that look like?

Based on how things went in court (plus momtara already having most of the custody) and the judge's comments, it sounds like the court sees their situation as clearly as is possible in these cases. momtara wants ex to comply with the court order, and he is not doing that. Therefore, sanctions apply.

When I went to court to get N/BPDx to comply with the sanctions, it was about the sanctions. It's not legally ethical to try and use sanctions to gain anything else. Now ex has one more thing he has to comply with. He has to show the court he will comply.

When there is an ongoing history of contempt of court, it shows a pattern of behavior. This is one way to build leverage.

In my case, each contempt of court made the judge more and more intolerant of my ex. It was like N/BPDx shifted from me as his target, to the court. And once the court started to experience what I was experiencing, everything started to (slowly and expensively) shift my way.

[HopefulDad]

Use the fact that he has to pay your legal fees to your advantage, but don't abuse it.  

I say don't abuse it in case he can later make a case that you are using this payment arrangement to negotiate in bad faith to just get what you want.

I'm not sure I follow how momtara could abuse her ex with the legal sanctions? What would that look like?

Based on how things went in court (plus momtara already having most of the custody) and the judge's comments, it sounds like the court sees their situation as clearly as is possible in these cases. momtara wants ex to comply with the court order, and he is not doing that. Therefore, sanctions apply.

If it costs nothing for someone to go to court, he/she could take the ex to court over *anything* with no fear of it costing money.  If the judge sees a history prior to this ruling of attempts to negotiate out of court, then suddenly sees the person spared of costs deciding to litigate everything no matter how petty, the judge might decide this arrangement was a bad idea.

[momtara]

Good points, HopefulDad. It could lead to that in some cases. But honestly, even my ex paying is bad for me, because that's money he could pay for things for the kids. If he was rich, maybe I'd gloat. He is not. I don't want to spend our money on lawyers and court anymore. No one really wins. I did this to make coparenting simpler in the future. (And my ex loves to threaten me with court, which may stop now.)

When my L asked for fees, the judge said my ex had not complied with X and Y (and then read some stuff). We had asked my ex several times for letters from his therapists saying he was still in therapy, which he was supposed to provide. So the judge awarded the fees because we should have gotten the letters without going to court.

She first asked my L how many years of experience she had and whether her firm did exclusively matrimonial law, to see if her fees were reasonable. Then my lawyer offered a set amount so that they would not bicker over that. It was more than fair. All in all, very interesting stuff. But it could have gone the other way (and my L was shocked) and I DO NOT want to end up back in a courtroom if I can help it. That money can go for better things.

My L came out of the hearing and said to me, "She [the judge] got it." She also said that my ex's attorney talked too much. My L said, "I was thinking, 'shut the ___ up already.' " (I don't curse. My lawyer does. I kinda love that. I wouldn't want her to be my therapist, but I want her in a courtroom.)

[momtara]

Kids home safe! Daddy even brought home some new clothes for them. Huh.

Things should improve now. Live and learn, as they say.