If you'd known ahead of time what you're getting into...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

It never ceases to amaze me how many things we who post here have in common.  I voted 'maybe' but perhaps it should have been a 'yes'.  Like you Cat Familiar, and you too Cold Ethyl, I consider my husband to be a truly good person and decent human being at heart.  And he is becoming more self-aware.  And like the two of you, I had a prior marriage in which I wasted many years with someone who was very selfish and not interested in self-analysis, sharing or caring, though BPD was not a factor in that one.

On the other hand, as Waverider said, "abuse leaves a legacy that just can't be swept under the carpet."  It is so difficult to deal with the frequent temper tantrums and being snapped at for things that are so inconsequential.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my self-confidence isn't even what it used to be any more. I realize that this thread is on the 'Undecided' board, and I never even looked at anything but the 'Staying' board until a recent very bad episode of verbal abuse got me to think further.

[Hope26]

It never ceases to amaze me how many things we who post here have in common.  I voted 'maybe' but perhaps it should have been a 'yes'.  Like you Cat Familiar, and you too Cold Ethyl, I consider my husband to be a truly good person and decent human being at heart.  And he is becoming more self-aware.  And like the two of you, I had a prior marriage in which I wasted many years with someone who was very selfish and not interested in self-analysis, sharing or caring, though BPD was not a factor in that one.

On the other hand, as Waverider said, "abuse leaves a legacy that just can't be swept under the carpet."  It is so difficult to deal with the frequent temper tantrums and being snapped at for things that are so inconsequential.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my self-confidence isn't even what it used to be any more. I realize that this thread is on the 'Undecided' board, and I never even looked at anything but the 'Staying' board until a recent very bad episode of verbal abuse got me to think further.

[thisagain]

I'm a Maybe. I think if I'd known what I was getting into, I would have been able to handle everything so much better. I would have been able to prepare myself for the push-pull, have more realistic expectations, not take it personally when she started splitting me black, have boundaries to protect myself from the emotional abuse... .I think we could have avoided most of the conflict.

But, I'm not sure I would WANT that life. It would require me to stifle a lot of my normal human feelings and desires for my relationship. There are some needs that can be met outside the relationship, but some that are basically the whole point of having a relationship--emotional and physical intimacy, mutual support, affection, etc. If I had a do-over, I could practice radical acceptance from the start, and not take it personally when the push-pull started and she couldn't consistently meet those needs for me. I wouldn't express my disappointment or ask her do better, because I'd know what her problem was and accept it. We'd have a lot less conflict, I wouldn't be such a trigger for her, and so she might be able to meet those needs more often than she did in real life. Though still not consistently.

[Cat Familiar]

It never ceases to amaze me how many things we who post here have in common.  I voted 'maybe' but perhaps it should have been a 'yes'.  Like you Cat Familiar, and you too Cold Ethyl, I consider my husband to be a truly good person and decent human being at heart.  And he is becoming more self-aware.  And like the two of you, I had a prior marriage in which I wasted many years with someone who was very selfish and not interested in self-analysis, sharing or caring, though BPD was not a factor in that one.

On the other hand, as Waverider said, "abuse leaves a legacy that just can't be swept under the carpet."  It is so difficult to deal with the frequent temper tantrums and being snapped at for things that are so inconsequential.  I don't know about the rest of you, but my self-confidence isn't even what it used to be any more. I realize that this thread is on the 'Undecided' board, and I never even looked at anything but the 'Staying' board until a recent very bad episode of verbal abuse got me to think further.

If it weren't for difficult relationships, I probably wouldn't have pursued individual therapy nor been interested in posting on these boards. However, it's made me a much better person and there's still a lot of continuous room for improvement.  

I did start this thread on the Staying board, but Skip moved it to Undecided. I don't think there's anything wrong in examining why we stay in these relationships and for so many who post here, outsiders must think we're nuts to keep soldiering on. I know my first marriage was like that. And there have been one or two eyebrow raising moments with my current husband where I've wondered if I should apologize for his behavior. I haven't but it's been a close call.

I felt as though it was my first husband's mission to break my spirit and destroy my self esteem. He was very good at it and I was accustomed to these sorts of attacks, as I had grown up with a BPD mother. (It felt like family?)  

Fortunately I had done some individual therapy after I divorced the first husband, so I was more immune to the self esteem damage a partner with BPD can inflict, whether intentional or otherwise.

Hope26, all I can advise you is to remember: Boundaries, Boundaries, Boundaries. No one has the right to speak disrespectfully to you. You have the right to leave a conversation that is abusive. You don't owe your partner the right to be listened to if what he is saying is hurtful and unkind.

I wish I had realized all of these things many years ago in my first marriage. I wouldn't have had the experience waverider refers to of wasting a large slab of my life as I did, trying to accommodate to my first husband's ever-changing demands.

[Hope26]

Thank you, Cat Familiar.  I have come to that conclusion too, that working on 'Boundaries' needs to be my current goal.  I've gotten pretty good at avoiding 'JADE'ing, most of the time.  By my just going silent when the anger and accusations start, he seems to at some point realize that he was out of line.  And it keeps the episodes shorter.

If anything happened that you and your partner were no longer together, would you take a chance on another marriage?  I don't think I would.  I was single for 25 years in between the two, and life was, for the most part, serene and peaceful.

[Cat Familiar]

If anything happened that you and your partner were no longer together, would you take a chance on another marriage?  I don't think I would.  I was single for 25 years in between the two, and life was, for the most part, serene and peaceful.

Nope. I wouldn't get married again. My husband inherited some sizable assets from his family (he lives in a much higher economic bracket than I do--I'm solidly middle-class). The way his trust is written, I would have access to managing his assets if he were to die and there is a joint asset we currently share but that I don't touch presently. However there is a "poison pill" if I were to get married again that I would be "written out" of his estate.

So, for that reason alone, I can't imagine ever getting married again. Unless it was to someone who had even more wealth.   

[workinprogress]

I said "maybe." 

I can see how the relationship evolved.  It went from me being in control of myself to somehow shifting to me pleasing her.  I began neglecting myself.  I wish I had stuck to my guns, but I didn't.

I guess what I'm saying is I feel that if I had been stronger, things may have went differently.

That being said, 24 years later, I still miss the woman that I married, and I wonder who this stranger in my life is now.

[ColdEthyl]

Hope26

On the other hand, as Waverider said, "abuse leaves a legacy that just can't be swept under the carpet."  It is so difficult to deal with the frequent temper tantrums and being snapped at for things that are so inconsequential.

Haha yep... .juuuuuuuuuuust had one of those tantrums yesterday. He was upset because I asked him what he wanted for dinner on Sunday and he said pizza. When dinnertime came, the kids asked if we could have chicken nuggets. I went and asked him "are chicken nuggets OK?" and he said sure that's fine. Fast forward to last night, where he's yelling about how I forgot and I'm lying about "polling" the family and asking what they wanted. Why... .I just forgot and don't want to admit it.

Mind you, any time I forget... .I always say that. Why would I even lie about something so stupid?

The issue wasn't pizza vs nuggets. The issue was I asked him if he wanted something, and because something else was chosen, that means his choice/thoughts are useless.

Something small for us is big to them. They read so much into things because they are constantly trying to protect themselves.

If he starts name calling, I get up and leave. I don't deal with that. If he starts throwing things, I leave. I do not deal with that anymore either. I don't even have to leave... .my saying I am going to chills him out.

The hardest part is to sit there silently while they are rattling off their nonsense. But usually, if I am capable of not JADEing, at the end he will say he's sorry he was being a dick. He will hear himself after the fact.

That's why I can handle it. If he wasn't aware and actively improving, I wouldn't be.

Workinprogress:

I still miss the woman that I married, and I wonder who this stranger in my life is now.

Are you guys in counseling now? Have you been trying some the lessons here? How do they go?

[Polis_Ohio]

If I would have known about how my ex was and how I am, our relationship would have been much different, potentially still alive.

[waverider]

The important point of this questions is if you had known BEFORE you had any investment, emotional or otherwise, when you first met as complete strangers and you knew all this before you even chose whether to date or not. Would you have been willing to take that risk of maybe doing ok, or would you have past it over.

Similarly as an employer with this knowledge and someone had this on their CV would they make your shortlist with all the potential angst that you could be bringing into the workplace.

So what does this mean? It makes it more than clear as to why someone who suffers from a Disorder like this is not going to be advertising the fact, even if they dont have a name for it. They have been going through the consequences most of their life. They will try their best to present as being "normal'. Being  BPD means they will overdo "normal" to the point of being overly enthusiastic, overly fun, overly empathetic etc... This is why we fall for this, especially if we are in need of it.

Eventually we get our fill and dont "need' it as much, and their enthusiasm to keep it up wanes, the pendulum swings... .if you are lucky you end up here to find out what on earth is going on. Unfortunately most people never really find out what is going on and struggle to address the escalating misery

[Cat Familiar]

The important point of this questions is if you had known BEFORE you had any investment, emotional or otherwise, when you first met as complete strangers and you knew all this before you even chose whether to date or not. Would you have been willing to take that risk of maybe doing ok, or would you have past it over.

Similarly as an employer with this knowledge and someone had this on their CV would they make your shortlist with all the potential angst that you could be bringing into the workplace.

So what does this mean? It makes it more than clear as to why someone who suffers from a Disorder like this is not going to be advertising the fact, even if they dont have a name for it. They have been going through the consequences most of their life. They will try their best to present as being "normal'. Being  BPD means they will overdo "normal" to the point of being overly enthusiastic, overly fun, overly empathetic etc... This is why we fall for this, especially if we are in need of it.

Eventually we get our fill and dont "need' it as much, and their enthusiasm to keep it up wanes, the pendulum swings... .if you are lucky you end up here to find out what on earth is going on. Unfortunately most people never really find out what is going on and struggle to address the escalating misery

I guess I'm lucky in that I'm emotionally self-sufficient (mostly). This is a good explanation of the disorder--how they have to try so hard to be "normal" and that through the trying, they can appear very desirable. It's truly a "bait and switch" buyer beware scenario.

[workinprogress]

Workinprogress:

I still miss the woman that I married, and I wonder who this stranger in my life is now.

Are you guys in counseling now? Have you been trying some the lessons here? How do they go?[/quote]
She refuses counseling.  I tried some of the exercises, and I felt like I was bending over backwards just so I could go a few days without being painted black.  Ultimately, I would get painted black no matter what I did or said anyway.

It is high investment and no reward.

From here on out I am living the way I want to.  I recently had a heart attack and I just can't keep jumping through all of these hoops anymore.  It's too much.

[CrazyChuck]

I guess what I'm saying is I feel that if I had been stronger, things may have went differently.

I have said this so many times. So many.

[ColdEthyl]

Workinprogress:

I still miss the woman that I married, and I wonder who this stranger in my life is now.

Are you guys in counseling now? Have you been trying some the lessons here? How do they go?

She refuses counseling.  I tried some of the exercises, and I felt like I was bending over backwards just so I could go a few days without being painted black.  Ultimately, I would get painted black no matter what I did or said anyway.

It is high investment and no reward.

From here on out I am living the way I want to.  I recently had a heart attack and I just can't keep jumping through all of these hoops anymore.  It's too much.[/quote]
Aye I understand that. I'm so sorry  The lessons do work but it usually gets tougher before it gets better  Your health is most important. I hope you are taking care of yourself <3

[Cat Familiar]

I find it amazing what some of us have endured and continue to experience, hoping that things will get better. I'm in that camp too--having had a long highly dysfunctional marriage with my first husband. I guess that's why I'm ultra sensitized to problems in my current marriage--I've been there, done it and don't want to do it again. If my current marriage was my first experience with BPD, I probably wouldn't even have found myself on these boards--I would have been more tolerant and would have labeled some of my husband's odd behavior as eccentricities or quirks.

[yeeter]

I find it amazing what some of us have endured and continue to experience, hoping that things will get better. I'm in that camp too--having had a long highly dysfunctional marriage with my first husband. I guess that's why I'm ultra sensitized to problems in my current marriage--I've been there, done it and don't want to do it again. If my current marriage was my first experience with BPD, I probably wouldn't even have found myself on these boards--I would have been more tolerant and would have labeled some of my husband's odd behavior as eccentricities or quirks.

Life is a series of lessons. If you dont learn that particular lesson the first time, dont worry, you will get it again later.

It sounds like you are learning... .!

[teapay]

I'm not surprised that the "No" rate is high.  I'm kind of surprised that the combined  "Yes" and "Maybe" rate is so high.  Relationships are very painful for BPDs, probably as or more painful than for the nons, although often it doesn't seem that way to us nons.  I've often kicked myself for getting involved with my wife because she was doing well prior to our meeting.  She had bad relationships in the past, but wasn't in one for a while when we got involved.  She had  a pretty good life and possible future, who knows.  She has and maintains lots of friendships that work for her with the BPD drama. As a BPD, getting into a marriage relationship was probably the worse thing for her and magnifying it with a bunch of kids(more relationships) couldn't end well for her.  It is like rubbing salt into an infected burn. I didn't know any of this then or during much of our marriage, but I am quite aware of it and the nature of BPD now.  Because of the kids im willing to try to stick it out for alittle longer, but it might be in her interest and health for us to split too. For those answering yes or maybe, knowing what you now know about BPD and your partner  why do you believe it would have been in your partners interest to form an intimate relationship with them rather than not or being only friends or acquaintances.

[workinprogress]

I'm not surprised that the "No" rate is high.  I'm kind of surprised that the combined  "Yes" and "Maybe" rate is so high.  Relationships are very painful for BPDs, probably as or more painful than for the nons, although often it doesn't seem that way to us nons.  I've often kicked myself for getting involved with my wife because she was doing well prior to our meeting.  She had bad relationships in the past, but wasn't in one for a while when we got involved.  She had  a pretty good life and possible future, who knows.  She has and maintains lots of friendships that work for her with the BPD drama. As a BPD, getting into a marriage relationship was probably the worse thing for her and magnifying it with a bunch of kids(more relationships) couldn't end well for her.  It is like rubbing salt into an infected burn. I didn't know any of this then or during much of our marriage, but I am quite aware of it and the nature of BPD now.  Because of the kids im willing to try to stick it out for alittle longer, but it might be in her interest and health for us to split too. For those answering yes or maybe, knowing what you now know about BPD and your partner  why do you believe it would have been in your partners interest to form an intimate relationship with them rather than not or being only friends or acquaintances.

As of tonight, if I could change my answer from "Maybe" to "No", I would do it.

[Hope26]

Teapay, I think maybe one of the main differences between your situation and mine (and maybe others who answered 'yes' or 'maybe' is whether there are children involved.  My H and I met later in life and do not have children.  When I think of how it would have been to raise children with BPD in the picture, I don't know that our marriage would have lasted; I'm sure we both would have been devoted parents, but at severe cost to our relationship.  As it is, I think  the common interests and shared activities that we have provide enrichment to both of our lives; I'm pretty sure H would say the same.  I am the one who brought a lot more material resources into the relationship, and I know he appreciates this as well.  But so do I, because without pooling our resources into the areas we agree are most important to us, neither of us would have as blessed a life as we do now, while approaching our retirement years.  For example, travel is important to both of us and we both enjoy the same destinations.

[ColdEthyl]

Teapay: " For those answering yes or maybe, knowing what you now know about BPD and your partner  why do you believe it would have been in your partners interest to form an intimate relationship with them rather than not or being only friends or acquaintances."

That's a pretty odd question. I understand from your prospective and experience that you question whether or not it would have been good for your wife, however that situation doesn't apply to everyone. In fact, most people w/ BPD jump from relationship to relationship trying to find someone to connect to.

Setting aside the fact that they are human beings with basic humans needs... .one of which being love... .in my marriage my husband is my best friend and I am his. With the tools from this site, we have "dyregulations" once maybe twice a month, sometimes even longer than that. We communicate and listen to each other.

Perhaps it depends on what end of the spectrum they are, and if they are self-aware. Keep in mind that even though relationships are very painful, the right ones also make you feel very loved and cherished. My husband says he has never had that before our relationship because no one took the time to understand him like I have. He feels loved and safe with me, and he does because I am honest and uphold boundaries.