How can I enforce boundaries when I don't know the truth

[Daniell85]

I agreed to open up instant message communications with my boyfriend. Essentially we can talk at any time. No one is talking very much. I am jittered out, but so far have shown myself as calm. He may be the same. He comes around about once a day, chats briefly, then disappears. No talk to you later, or goodnight, or that he is leaving the conversation. That is an aspect of his behavior that I have felt a lot of hurt over during the time we have been together. I basically find it rude, on purpose, and a demeaning act.

That being said, it is the value I am assigning to it. My experience of it. He would deny it. At the moment I am silent on it. Last thing I need is some drama. More for me than him, because it can mess up days and days for me.

I am running into something else. It troubles me a lot. He unblocked me on facebook, but has locked up his account so I can't see anything. He says he is hiding everything he can, so I know nothing, and won't get information to hurt him with.  

The problem for me, is that I feel the anxiety and mistrust for him even more. I have heard some evidence that he is being "friends" with the OW. It is absolutely the last thing I need at this point. So joining in the open instant messenger, I feel troubled and afraid, so I am not really putting a lot of effort into trying to engage him in very much chatty" just do the relationship" discussion.

He already told me numerous times he is not talking to OW. I don't believe him. I don't have direct proof atm, so I can't prove anything, and he is clearly not willing to stop hiding everything.

I am sat here, with the fear, and I feel stuck. Big part of me wants to shut the whole mess down and tell him goodbye, another part of me thinks I should just let some time pass, see how things go, see if the calm and lack of expectation allows things to open back up. At the same time, I think it would take A LOT of lack of reaction from me for him to even hint at admitting the OW is still around.

For what it's worth, I don't actually believe he is going to try and have a relationship with her or sleep with her again. I heard she has a new boyfriend. At the same time, I see him sort of hanging on, and she has always loved that she has a "special" relationship with him.

To condense that, I feel hurt he hasn't cut her off, I don't trust him as a result, and my ego... .I think normal ego, feels really disrespected. It's interfering with my capacity to do more than sit there, have shallow talks, and nod and smile. It's killing my feelings for him, which are already compromised.

I am not sure how to reframe the situation in order to feel better. Any ideas?

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[Blistex]

Quote: "I am running into something else. It troubles me a lot. He unblocked me on facebook, but has locked up his account so I can't see anything. He says he is hiding everything he can, so I know nothing, and won't get information to hurt him with.  rolleyes

The problem for me, is that I feel the anxiety and mistrust for him even more."

Wow!  I am not sure how to re-frame the situation to make you feel better.  You said it really very clearly.

Except perhaps to do what I did in the beginning of my story: ignore the red flags and put one's head in the sand and pray it gets better.

And the ending of the story:  It never did get better.  In fact the problem of anxiety and mistrust only grew.

My advice:  Don't follow in my footsteps.  Find a new boyfriend whom you trust and makes you happy!   

[Daniell85]

Staying board  i am trying to work my through it.

[an0ught]

Hi Daniell85,

short of demanding NC and leaving him when you see NC broken it becomes hard to enforce boundaries with respect to pwBPD, BFFs and emotional affairs. It is such a fuzzy topic - I know it when I see it - type definition. Her not being around certainly would relieve you jealousy and fear of being cheated. NC has the benefit of clarity but then it also comes with a more dependent and potentially less stable pwBPD. And while in BFF the F stands for forever the gap when one leaves may well be filled by the next in line. Drawing a line in the sand and demanding NC is a valid choice -maybe the right one for you- it may also be a choice that spells the end of the relationship.

I am not sure how to reframe the situation in order to feel better. Any ideas?

You are in a relationship with someone who struggles with boundaries. What you can do is being clear what you can control and what not. E.g. are you able and does it make sense to control his communication? Somehow I doubt you are able to do it perfectly, you will get bits and pieces and more than likely will be triggered. There is not that much you really control except your interaction with him - how you let him treat yourself, time spent together, information you share etc... On the other hand relationships are not really about control but about understanding.

Re-framing may be

- controlling *what you can control* really well

- accepting that you won't be able to know and control everything and maybe this is not a bad thing

- turning the energy you spend on worry into energy spend on communication and learning

[waverider]

Boundaries are about how things affect us, not the technicalities of fairness or nuts and bolts details. When we allow it to be about details it is easy to work around boundaries.

A boundary which typically is" I will not be around someone who is making me feel suspicious and insecure". Then the judge and jury is your gut feeling. The truth is not that important. How you are feeling is, after all that is what you are protecting, not some impression of what is appropriate or not

[Beacher]

Oh the blocking/ unblocking hiding things, all sounds so familiar. This is what they do, not sure if it's paranoia or insecurity or both. My husband refuses to give me the password for our Verizon account, claims he doesn't want me to do something stupid in MY emotional state. What is he hiding? Found out he has a tracer on my phone. He also put security cameras all around the house to monitor our ailing older cats. Really? The next minute he said it was so no one has to worry about anyone bothering anyone else. Then it was for our safety. We are also struggling financially and god knows what it costs. I'm sorry you are going through so much pain. It must me hurtful for him to just show up for a brief time and leave. We are good people and deserve better, but instead have to deal with this behavior.

[formflier]

" I will not be around someone who is making me feel suspicious and insecure". 

Daniel85,

My reaction to this post is that there is some decision time of which road to go down with respect to which "tool" you are going to lean on.

Boundaries seem to be one tool.

The other tool or "attitude" would be to try to not take things personally.

He may be trying to be rude to you (intentional) or he may just be thoughtless.  Same with his facebook.

HIS fear is driving him to take this actions. 

It's not your fear.  You didn't put it there.  So, in a way, it's not about you.

Thoughts?

FF

[waverider]

Oh the blocking/ unblocking hiding things, all sounds so familiar. This is what they do, not sure if it's paranoia or insecurity or both.

Its to make a point, it is a form of passive aggressive communication.

[Daniell85]

I wanted to know the truth, simply for the reason of stepping out of the situation. I understand I can't control him. I don't want to argue with him or debate or play detective.

If he wants ( and does do it) to interact with other women, then it's his right. And it's my right to protect myself by not being there. The problem is I can't tell. So maybe it does come down to the boundary "I can't be in a relationship where I feel afraid and insecure". 

Very sad to me.

He and I did discuss this early this morning. He insists he is not talking to her. He said, "There is no reason for that".

He also said that I have valid reasons to be upset, but he doesn't feel I handle my upset "right".

I went on to my therapy appointment and it was a hard meeting for me. My therapist does not believe long distance relationships are "real" relationships. She kept calling it a fantasy world that I am losing myself in and using as a means of venting difficult emotions.

I am struggling in the therapy. I went to her for panic attacks and PTSD. I am a little confounded because she has decided I am BPD. I have listened to her thoughts on that, considered the possibility. I went over to the diagnostic criteria for BPD, I took tests for it, and it says I don't have it.

My doctor diagnosed me with a major panic disorder 2 years ago. From PTSD.

So I don't know. Therapist says it doesn't matter if it is PTSD or BPD, the treatment is the same. She keeps saying I am seeking out intense situations. The thing is, I get so worried in unstable situations I avoid them broadly because it messes up my capacity to do what I need to do with my work, and my daily life/recreational activities.

What I do keep trying to do is discuss with boyfriend my difficulty at  putting myself forward for him due to the history ( and my fear of the bad stuff continuing) of our relationship.

Feel pretty disheartened this evening

[formflier]

 

 

I hope you can care for yourself over the next few days... .

Hang in there!

FF

[waverider]

I have found when it comes to dealing with pwBPD the only real truth is that I will never know the absolute truth. Thats whyI  make my boundaries about how I feel otherwise i dont have any stable benchmark.

Boundaries linked to absolute truths are difficult to set and enact, as then you expose yourself to harm just trying get at the "truth', which you dont fully believe anyway.

[formflier]

  as then you expose yourself to harm just trying get at the "truth' .

Expose yourself and the relationship to harm.  Many times the "cost" of the investigation is higher than the "crime" being investigated.  When it's all over many times the focus is on the investigation (because it is more recent than the "crime" and the person being investigated is the victim.  The original aggrieved person (in this case Daniell85) is then seen as the  "perpetrator" rather than the person that has been wronged.

FF

[waverider]

Digging too deep risks a cave in, and then you have to dig yourself out again

[Daniell85]

Well he is mad, and it is true if I get upset over what he does or has done, then he focuses unwaveringly on ME as the real problem.

Then he hands out punishment by way of passing judgement, justifying further lies, etc.

Maybe you will think less of me for this... .

When this woman has come at me, saying rude things, making fun of me, calling me stupid, ugly, eventually I have gotten upset enough to tell her off for it.

From HIS view, I am crazy, insane, mentally messed up for doing that. And so he lies and hides things even more.

I have NOT done that since early last summer, as I have been focusing on the therapy, trying to figure out how to deal with him as a BPD, and ultimately my own daily peacefulness has mattered more to me.

When he and I were talking yesterday, the subject came up and he mentioned that even from last summer, saying "some things never change", it felt pretty unfair. He cheated on me with her.

His point to me it is ok to be upset, but it's not ok to tell her to go eff herself and stay the heck away. He gets to decide how I defend myself from someone who is harassing me? HE, the guy who cheated and keeps lying, gaslighting me, and brought this person into our lives gets to tell ME how I am supposed to feel and think and try to protect myself from it?

That being said, the mechanism for me has been she drops like a spider onto me from the ceiling, I have a panic attack and slap her down. And he stands up for her to me because I was out of line for my big fit.

I guess that is the cave in. He did say yesterday that he does things like that, too. And I told him, ok how about the passing judgement and handing out punishments on me stop and we start figuring out ways for figuring things out and ways forward away from these things?

I didn't get an answer. I had to leave for my therapy appointment.

He did not leave a message.

Probably not helpful to the situation, but I am angry about it all today. So I guess I won't be talking to him. Typical of him if I show up is to give me the cold shoulder to punish me and you know, sometimes it really gets to me. Better things to do, I have a ton of work I need to catch up on.

[formflier]

 

Daniell85,

We don't think less of you for what you did.

I'm very appreciative that you open yourself and your story up here. 

I think it helps you... and I also think your situation can help and guide others.

 

What do you think your anger is telling you?  How can you channel the anger into something positive... .something that you control.

FF

[Daniell85]

I think the anger is telling me my boundaries are being crossed. Or at least I feel they are in danger of being crossed.

At this point I am typically withdrawing from him if I am angry at him. Avoiding making it worse, right?

I remember when he was in the middle of creating the most severe events. I was suddenly the object of being made fun of and called names, confusing lies, and sudden discoveries. I numbed out. There were a ton of blows. And he would set himself up as the director of a number of ugly smear campaigns, so people were coming to me telling me some ugly things and attacking me. Then he would come back around and say it was all lies and he wanted me.

The anger now, because I have been able to stop back and detach enough to see clearer, sometimes when he is pointing fingers at me and putting me down for having gotten upset, I just feel like "who the he#@* do you think you are doing all of those things and then tearing me up for eventually breaking apart over it?"

I think I feel a lot of anger now because I was so numb then. NOW he wants to fix things, but we can only do it with HIM as the moral authority.  I am having a hard time with that.

Maybe I have primitive coping skills. The best productive redirection of the upset is to go do something physical for me. Clean house, go outside. Go for a drive. It gets my head out of the intensity and puts things into some better perspective.

I am happy to hear about things other people do that work for them.

[formflier]

I

I remember when he was in the middle of creating the most severe events. I was suddenly the object of being made fun of and called names, confusing lies, and sudden discoveries. I numbed out. There were a ton of blows. And he would set himself up as the director of a number of ugly smear campaigns, so people were coming to me telling me some ugly things and attacking me. Then he would come back around and say it was all lies and he wanted me.

So... .I'm encouraging you to look at anger= motivation to do something different.

To change the dynamic  So that patterns don't repeat themselves.

How does the story you related... .fit in with what you are experiencing now.

What is under your control (now) that you could change... .to increase likelihood of a different outcome... .

Note:  Boundaries getting crossed should result in a reaction from you.  If something is 1 inch outside your boundary... .or 100 miles... .you shouldn't care. 

If something outside your boundary is affecting you... .I see two options.

Either your boundary needs to be adjusted

or

You should respect your boundary and work on changing your attitude about what is going on outside areas of your control ... .(outside your boundaries)

Thoughts?

FF

[Daniell85]

Probably my boundary needs adjusted. In order to feel "safe" I need to end contact with him.

The onus has been on me to change how I react to being betrayed, lied to, cheated on, and run into the ground. If some other person came along and started this, I would be gone in a heartbeat. But here I am, my feelings involved with him.

I am hesitating at this point on cutting contact because finally after all of this time, he stated on his own that I really do have reasons to be upset. His view is shifting from how blameless he has been in all of this to Danielle has legitimate reasons to be upset with him.

Me defaulting to not being around if I don't feel I can keep composure actually is a pretty big change. It has a much greater impact on what he chooses to do if I back away quietly as opposed to trying to talk to him about things.

He has stopped a number of aggravating behaviors at this point. But only the ones he can't hide that were happening.  

I need to think on the boundary stuff more.

[formflier]

  he stated on his own that I really do have reasons to be upset.

This is good.

I'm more interested in what he does... .than what he says. 

Still... .if he has never said or done things to acknowledge your feelings on the cheating... .this could be a good first step.

Boundary stuff:  I remember being resistant at first.  To me it felt like I was having to "take action" for things that weren't my fault.  I mean, if my wife would have just been reasonable about getting in my email and texts, I would not have had to make the effort.

That is how I made it "her fault".  (and... she wasn't being reasonable)

However, as my thinking changed to think about my value and that "my stuff" is actually important then it seemed more like "my responsibility" to protect my stuff.  (in this case e-mail passwords)

Bottom line:  Boundary stuff is hard, uncomfortable for most "nons" that come to this board.  I certainly had no "training" in boundaries before coming here.  I wish I had.

Spending time on boundaries is time well spent.

FF

[Daniell85]

I can't do it.

I don't have it in me.

He ran off again.

[formflier]

I can't do it.

I don't have it in me.

He ran off again.

   

:'( :'( :'( :'(   For you!

What can you do... ."for you" tonight?  Go for a walk and then... .?  what would you enjoy.

FF

[Daniell85]

I am in tears. I feel so disheartened. I don't believe that man has an honest bone or compassionate cell in his body.

I don't want to do anything at all. I know you are trying to support me, but I feel terrible.

[Daniell85]

And back he comes, with an apology message left on IM.

"I am sorry  "

Well call me impatient and hurt, because I am tired of the antics. I am tired of the blocking and the sudden rages.

I AM STILL BLOCKED. &Q(*$+ crap is ticking me off.

I hate BPD.

I don't even know what to say to him. Straighten your act up Mister?

[patientandclear]

What is he apologizing for?

[Daniell85]

Running off. He disregulated over something not even to do with me and blocked me on IM. I hadn't even said a WORD yet to him and he did that.

some time during the night while I was asleep, he came back, unblocked me and said he was sorry.

I'm tired out on it, and everytime I try to leave him a message, I can't even figure one out that doesn't show the upset.