More of the same

[vortex of confusion]

I haven't posted in a while. I needed to take a step back and get some perspective.

After a rough summer, it became obvious that my husband hasn't really changed at all. He is back to posting and answering ads online.

He claims that he isn't SA after all and that all of his problems stem from struggling with his sexual identity. He has come out as Bisexual yet he only seems to be looking for women friends. And he emphasizes that they are just friends.

It is more of the same.

I had a friend visit and my husband made such a to do about pulling his weight around the house. It felt like a huge production to me. I cooked a big dinner for our guest and all 7 of us had a nice sit down family dinner. He made such a fuss about cleaning the table and doing the dishes. After my friend left, he has done very little. It almost feels like he is backsliding.

And, we went to see a counselor together in September. He has not gone back.

The counselor told him that he needed to grow up and stop acting like a child and she told me that I needed to stop being so parental. He says that he doesn't feel a need to go back because he doesn't feel like he needs to talk about anything. He says that he is at peace because he finally openly admitted that he is bisexual. He said something similar a couple of years ago.

I feel like I am at a real crossroads because I don't know how much more I can tolerate. I feel like that is exactly what I do. I tolerate him. My ability to see the positive in him and celebrate him is almost non-existent these days.

[Surg_Bear]

It's so nice to see you back VOC.  I don't think there is another member here who missed you more, than this Bear.

Sorry to hear that things haven't changed much in your absence from the boards here. 

A couple questions come to mind regarding your current post:

Would things hurt less if your bisexual husband was looking for male friends rather than women?  Or would you rather he not be looking at all?

Are you saying that if the changes in your husband's behavior during your friend's visit were more lasting, things would be easier to celebrate and it would be easier to see the positives in your husband's behavior?  What was it about your friend's visit that made such a positive impact in him?  Or was he just "showing off" to save face?

I think that if I were in your shoes, I would have a hard time accepting that he is looking for ANYONE, given his troubles with Sex Addiction.  It seems that he, like many with with this BPD, is looking for a connection with a stranger because of an ability for them to connect with their primary loved one at home.  It is as if they think that the problem with inability to connect resides in the partner, rather than see that the problem actually resides in themselves.  I worry that it is a slippery slope of him being "just friends" with these people.  Given his troubles with SA, a friendship can lead to more troublesome behaviors, if these seemingly innocent internet friendships lead to meeting up in real life.  Have you discussed with him what consequences (if any) might befall him, should he take the next step and meet one of these women friends?

I'm sorry to hear he is back to doing this stuff- it must be so hurtful, given all you have done for him and your marriage.  He seems unable to see just how much you've done.  I can certainly relate to the feelings of not knowing how much more you can tolerate- I've been there.

On the other hand, it is nice to hear that you had a friend visit.  I could see how a visit from a close family friend could help you feel less alone in all of this.  I hope that you had a good time with your friend during their visit, even over and above the positive impact on your husband's behavior (though short-lived).

Maybe you guys could get back to seeing the counselor... .Seems like 2 months is a long time between sessions, at least to me.

Wishing you the best in all of this... .

Love,

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

Would things hurt less if your bisexual husband was looking for male friends rather than women?  Or would you rather he not be looking at all?

I think I am more confused than anything. A couple of years ago, he was adamant that he was bisexual. He explored that some and then decided that he wasn't bisexual after all. Now, he is back to saying that he is. On national coming out day, he emailed a bunch of his/our friends and made it a point to come out. He went on a forum to get support for dealing with his sexuality. I supported him in that. He made a male friend that he talked to for a couple of weeks and then his friend disappeared. It wasn't long after that when he started looking for ads.

I feel like I dropped the ball a bit because he asked for my permission to post on OK Cupid. I shrugged it off. I should have told him to go talk to his SA sponsor or his therapist. I just get so tired of feeling like his mommy.

I don't think I answered your question about whether or not it would hurt less if he was looking for men. I don't really have an answer. I almost feel numb rather than hurt. It is more of the same. Being hurt or upset by it seems kind of pointless. This is his pattern. This is what he does.

Why do I continue to put up with this stuff?

Are you saying that if the changes in your husband's behavior during your friend's visit were more lasting, things would be easier to celebrate and it would be easier to see the positives in your husband's behavior?  What was it about your friend's visit that made such a positive impact in him?  Or was he just "showing off" to save face?

I don't think my friend's visit has much of an impact on him at all. I think it was him trying to show off and act like he is some kind of great husband. If he had continued to be more helpful around the house, it would be easier to see him in a more positive light. I feel like he only steps up when there are visitors or when he is trying to prove something to someone else.

When we went to see his mom back in September, he was great while we were there. We went out on a date and he played with the kids and it almost reminded me of why I married him. Then, we get home and it is like being hit with a ton of bricks because he is right back to being uninvolved and just kind of there. When we were at his mom's, I am sure he was happy because he essentially had two mommy's to take care of him.

I think that if I were in your shoes, I would have a hard time accepting that he is looking for ANYONE, given his troubles with Sex Addiction. 

Oh, but he claims that he isn't a sex addict. That is my fault too because I questioned him about his addiction and was trying to understand the situation. Now it is, "You brought up some really good points. I don't think I am a sex addict after all. I have boundaries. A sex addict wouldn't be able to keep things under control like I have."

I don't even know how to feel about it. I am trying to focus on myself and my life. I am getting really close to telling him that I don't ever want him to touch me again. We can be friends and coparents and that is it. Even with all of that, he still expects me to take care of him and meet certain needs for him. What woman in their right mind would be okay with being physical with a guy that is so all over the place?

Have you discussed with him what consequences (if any) might befall him, should he take the next step and meet one of these women friends?

Consequences from me or other sorts of consequences? I feel like he and I have talked around things but haven't really addressed anything specifically. There has been discussions about disease, etc. But, I am not sure if it would be okay to tell him something like, "If you meet one of these ladies, I refuse to be physical with you." In the past, when I have asked him to go without for even short periods of time, he gets difficult to live with and stomps around and talks about his needs. I feel like I already know the answer to this but am just too afraid to follow through.

Maybe you guys could get back to seeing the counselor... .Seems like 2 months is a long time between sessions, at least to me.

The joint session was just a one time thing. We went to see his counselor. He asked her if I could come to a session so I could feel heard after some of the events that happened during the summer. He said it was a big thing to ask of her to let me come to the session since it was being paid for under his insurance and his copay. So, I have tried to at least get him to go on his own. Neither option seems to work for him. I don't have any answers. I just know that I am tired. I feel odd posting here today because it is more of the same and I don't feel like I have made that much progress with him. There for a while, I thought I was doing pretty good and that things were improving. Now, I am not so sure. There are no investigations, no visitors, no vacations and it seems like everything is right back to where they were when I was venting to the life coach in such a way that she reported me.

And the real kicker is that he still claims that he is sober and has not violated his sobriety in his 12 step program. It is such a contradiction. He says he isn't SA yet is counting the days sober. How does that even work?

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Welcome back. 

Have you been back to the counselor?  There were several times my wife said she wasn't going... .I didn't argue but told her I would be there discussing us.  She showed up.

The "show" he put on for your visitor sounds infuriating.  It would infuriate me anyway.

He showed he can do it... .when he wants.

Do you think his actions are some passive aggrssive way of communicating something to you?

Wishing you well as you continue to sort this out.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Have you been back to the counselor?  There were several times my wife said she wasn't going... .I didn't argue but told her I would be there discussing us.  She showed up.

No, I haven't. It is his counselor. He has health insurance and I don't. It would cost me three or four times as much to try to go because I don't have any insurance to help defray the cost.

The "show" he put on for your visitor sounds infuriating.  It would infuriate me anyway.

It was very infuriating. He tried to be so helpful. There were nights when my friend and I went out and he put the kids to bed. The night we had the big family dinner, I went to clean up afterwards and my husband shooed me away and said something along the lines of, "I got this. I have to contribute around here too." (Or something like that. I can't remember the specifics.)

Do you think his actions are some passive aggrssive way of communicating something to you?

That is a possibility. I have no idea what he could be trying to communicate to me. My friend was in town. I had an amazing time hanging out with my friend. While my friend was here, things were so peaceful. My husband helped out. I got to go be an adult. When my friend and I hung out with my family, everything went rather smoothly. My husband wasn't nearly as, not sure how to describe it, grumpy. He was more helpful and the kids were great.

Unless he is trying to passive aggressively punish me for having a friend visit and have such a great time. I don't really think that is the case because he and my friend hung out together too. I got a babysitter and all three of us went out to dinner. He seemed to enjoy our company too.

There were actually quite a few little things that happened when my friend was visiting that I found to be rather eye opening. I am trying to wrap my mind around some of it and figure out what to do with all of this stuff.

One thing that I think I am doing a lot better at is NOT getting sucked into his stuff. There were a few times that my husband tried to dysregulate on me. I didn't argue with him. I listened to him. I validated him and I took him to task. I am still not sure how I succeeded at talking him down.

I feel like I am completely done trying to figure out what he is trying to communicate with me with his passive aggressive tactics. He is not a little kid. If he feels the need to communicate something with me, I am trying to make that his responsibility rather than tying myself in knots to figure it out.

[formflier]

  He is not a little kid. If he feels the need to communicate something with me, I am trying to make that his responsibility rather than tying myself in knots to figure it out.

Debatable about the little kid thing... .

Could you have a fork in the road thing for him... ?

Either he is a kid and will be treated like one... .or he is an adult and will be treated like one

Maybe that is for you to decide.

Maybe it's time for my favorite... "help me understand how you are able to do x while my friend is here and you do y when she is gone... ."

I'll try to think on this more... .

Last thought... .

It's not fair for you to have to set a bar for him to jump over... .I think what happened is that you set the bar higher when your friend was here... .and he "jumped over it"... .or even if he went under... it was still higher... .and you noticed.

How does this translate into her not being here.   How do you set the bar higher. 

I guarantee you that he will not set it higher... .it is your job... .and no... it's not fair... .or right... .it just is.

I'm blathering a bit here... .but does any of that seem to fit... .to ring true.  I'm not asking if you like it... .I know that answer...    

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Debatable about the little kid thing... .

Could you have a fork in the road thing for him... ?

Either he is a kid and will be treated like one... .or he is an adult and will be treated like one

I think this is an area that I need to work on because I am pretty sure that I am not consistent. I am working on trying to treat him like an adult. I keep stumbling because treating him like a little kid is the method of dealing with him is the path of least resistance. It is easiest and nets the best results short term. If I am swamped trying to deal with things, I go into "Let's get stuff done mode" and that involves me telling everyone what to do, including him.

There was an incident that happened when my friend was here that really showed me why I tend to default to the kid thing. We all went out to a restaurant. One of the kids got sick so I took her to the bathroom and cleaned her up and then she and I went to the car and I held her. I left my husband, my friend, and the rest of the kids in the restaurant to finish eating. Later that night, I was checking in with one of the kids and she commented, "Mom, your friend was so helpful and I am so glad that it wasn't just dad. If your friend hadn't been there, it would have been a traumatic experience."

My husband lacks situational awareness. At the restaurant, I was helping the kids get their drinks and decide what to get. He was oblivious and went to get a table. He got all of his stuff and sat down without helping me deal with 4 or 5 drinks. My friend was getting a drink too and hung back with me and helped me with the drinks and the kids and everything else.

Maybe it's time for my favorite... "help me understand how you are able to do x while my friend is here and you do y when she is gone... ."

I am going to have to work up to that talk with him. There have been times when I have tried using the help me understand tactic and it worked and then there have been other times when it backfired on me. Here lately, he has been really tired and hasn't done much because of physical issues. I am pretty sure that he will tell me that it is because he isn't feeling well. That is a whole other issue that I have dealt with for most of our marriage. He doesn't feel well a lot of times and that is his excuse not doing things.

It's not fair for you to have to set a bar for him to jump over... .I think what happened is that you set the bar higher when your friend was here... .and he "jumped over it"... .or even if he went under... it was still higher... .and you noticed.

I will have to ponder that idea. I know that I have talked to one of my friends about the fact that my bar has been so low that it could be tripped over. 

I will have to think about how I set the bar higher while my friend was here and see if I can find ways to duplicate it. Like you say, that isn't fair. He and I are supposed to be in a relationship. I shouldn't have to be setting bars or asking him to do basic things. The session that we did have with the counselor, she told him that he needed to do a better job of taking initiative. She asked him why I needed to tell him what to do. If he sees that something needs to be done, he needs to do it. That is part of being in an adult relationship.

How does this translate into her not being here.   How do you set the bar higher. 

I guarantee you that he will not set it higher... .it is your job... .and no... it's not fair... .or right... .it just is.

I'm blathering a bit here... .but does any of that seem to fit... .to ring true.  I'm not asking if you like it... .I know that answer...    

I don't know how it translates into my friend not being here. I think I might just have to tell my friend to visit more often. 

I know he isn't going to set the bar higher. He is going to do as little as possible. I feel like I am at a loss as to how to set the bar higher. I have been trying to figure that out for a while now.

A lot of what you say rings true. I am so glad that I posted. You have given me lots of food for thought FormFlier. I have been pondering the stuff that was said in counseling for a while and have been slowly trying to implement things. I can see small changes here and there. It is improving yet it still feels like just more of the same.

[Surg_Bear]

The "show" he put on for your visitor sounds infuriating.  It would infuriate me anyway.

It was very infuriating. He tried to be so helpful. There were nights when my friend and I went out and he put the kids to bed. The night we had the big family dinner, I went to clean up afterwards and my husband shooed me away and said something along the lines of, "I got this. I have to contribute around here too." (Or something like that. I can't remember the specifics.)

Do you think his actions are some passive aggrssive way of communicating something to you?

That is a possibility. I have no idea what he could be trying to communicate to me. My friend was in town. I had an amazing time hanging out with my friend. While my friend was here, things were so peaceful. My husband helped out. I got to go be an adult. When my friend and I hung out with my family, everything went rather smoothly. My husband wasn't nearly as, not sure how to describe it, grumpy. He was more helpful and the kids were great.

Unless he is trying to passive aggressively punish me for having a friend visit and have such a great time. I don't really think that is the case because he and my friend hung out together too. I got a babysitter and all three of us went out to dinner. He seemed to enjoy our company too.

There were actually quite a few little things that happened when my friend was visiting that I found to be rather eye opening. I am trying to wrap my mind around some of it and figure out what to do with all of this stuff.

One thing that I think I am doing a lot better at is NOT getting sucked into his stuff. There were a few times that my husband tried to dysregulate on me. I didn't argue with him. I listened to him. I validated him and I took him to task. I am still not sure how I succeeded at talking him down.

I feel like I am completely done trying to figure out what he is trying to communicate with me with his passive aggressive tactics. He is not a little kid. If he feels the need to communicate something with me, I am trying to make that his responsibility rather than tying myself in knots to figure it out.

Why do we have to look for the hidden subtext in your husband's behavior when your friend was there, at all?

Isn't it equally possible that he just wanted you to have a good time with your friend, and so he upped his game a little?  Why can't it be that simple?  There are marathon runners and the there are sprinters, and besides that one superman BOLT; they usually don't mix.  Maybe your husband found the resources within himself to sprint for you during your friend's visit because he wanted you to have a good time with your friend and that's all. No passive aggressive BS.  Maybe somehow he found it in his heart to give you a good time, for the sake of your company.

I know that I have been sometimes blown away by my child's behavior when a guest is present.  Kids sometimes go to great lengths to impress the company.  Maybe you noticed the same in your own kids during the same friend's visit.  Was there anything that your kids did, without prompting from you, that seemed a bit out of character, while your friend was there? (Good or bad).  My bet is that there was a lot of behavior that seemed out of character from your kids as a show of good or evil on your friend's behalf.  I know a kid may not be capable of passive aggressive BS, and an adult is, but we are not discussing a "normal" adult here.  We are discussing a disordered adult.  One of my favorite singular descriptions of a person suffering from BPD here on bpdfamily, is VOC's description of her husband as a "petulant child."  I LOVE that.  It says so much about BPD in 2 words. 

Rather than take your husband to task for being good during your friend's visit, wasn't it miles better for you that he was good in front of the company, instead of being a petulant child?  Or worse, what if he had put on show for your company a huge, full-on BPD rage?

I don't want to sound like I am taking your husband's side in all of this.  I'm not.  It's just that sometimes it helps me to forget about BPD for just a moment when my wife is being kind, or gentle with me, instead of her usual, nitpicking, emotionally abusive and sometimes rageful self.  Is the BPD still there when she is being kind to me? Absolutely.  But at least in that one moment, I get to see that person that I fell in love with, and married 2 decades ago.  It is short lived, every time, because the BPD is still there, but I am somehow able to bask in the glow of the kindness like a sunny day in the middle of a particularly rainy winter in Seattle- I want to run outside and take off my shirt.

I'm not trying to take away from your experience at all.  It was clearly upsetting to you that he was able to be a good boy for your company, and then reverted back to his usual petulant self as soon as the door was shut.  Just trying to give you a different perspective.

Love,

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

Why do we have to look for the hidden subtext in your husband's behavior when your friend was there, at all?

That is a good question. I am not sure that I have an answer. I think, for me, it is me wondering if there is going to be any fall out. I don't think there will be but at the same time, he is notorious for passive aggressive weirdness.

Maybe somehow he found it in his heart to give you a good time, for the sake of your company.

I would desperately love to believe that. My husband has a history of being very self centered. He rarely does anything without there being something in it for him, even if it is just praise or looking good for others.

Was there anything that your kids did, without prompting from you, that seemed a bit out of character, while your friend was there? (Good or bad). 

I am probably just as guilty of this as my husband and kids. While my friend was here, I felt more peaceful and more calm. I didn't feel so alone. I was interacting with a real adult that would help me when I needed it. I was interacting with an adult that validated me in so many different ways.

My friend knows what is going on between my husband and I. I have tried repeatedly to explain some of the stuff that goes on between my husband and I and I usually feel like I am unable to adequately explain it. My friend noticed what I was talking about and validated it. It was stuff like him competing for attention and yammering without regard to those around him. I didn't feel so crazy while my friend was here and I think that translated to having a positive and peaceful impact on everyone else.

Now the question is, How can I recapture that? How can I find more ways to validate myself and not feel so crazy so that I can be more calm and peaceful moving forward?

Rather than take your husband to task for being good during your friend's visit, wasn't it miles better for you that he was good in front of the company, instead of being a petulant child?  Or worse, what if he had put on show for your company a huge, full-on BPD rage?

That is an excellent point! I am very grateful at how great things went while my friend was visiting.

And, I also have to ask myself the question, "What good would come of taking him to task?" At this point, I don't think anything good would come of it. I think this is something that I need to sort out or myself.

I'm not trying to take away from your experience at all.  It was clearly upsetting to you that he was able to be a good boy for your company, and then reverted back to his usual petulant self as soon as the door was shut.  Just trying to give you a different perspective.

You are not taking away from my experience.

Hmmm. . .I am not sure that I am upset as much as I am trying to figure out how to duplicate it. I really appreciate your perspective. For some reason, the analogy that comes to mind is eating cake. When you get a piece of really good cake, it is quite common to want more. If the cake is all gone, then you have to figure out how to get more cake. Can I go to the store and buy another cake? Can I find the recipe and bake the cake for myself? Or, do I have to get a hold of the friend that gave me the cake in the first place and ask for more? I had a taste of some really good cake. Now I am trying to figure out the recipe to get more. 

[Ceruleanblue]

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It sounds like you are more accepting than a lot of people would be. I've put up with some physical abuse, and most of my friends wouldn't. I don't think it's okay, but I felt it happened due to his BPD, and impulse control. We all ask ourselves what we can put up with, and deal with, and sometimes it takes a while to figure that out!

BPDh and I reconciled, but I would not have been okay with an open relationship, and he knew that. I'm not judging anyone who chooses an open relationship though. Just for me, I'd be really hurt by it. I think it's because I wouldn't have gotten married to a man where that was even presented, so to have it thrown on me later, would likely be a dealbreaker. I think any huge change in what was discussed prior to marriage, can be a dealbreaker, with or without BPD.

I don't have any advice, but I think your T had it right. Your husband needs to grow up, but because he behaves immaturely, it probably makes it hard for you to not "parent" him.

Hugs to you, and I think you have been doing really good considering you are in a tough situation. I think we all just try to do the best we can do, while trying to model healthy, good behavior. If that wasn't the case, why would we be here?

[vortex of confusion]

I don't have any advice, but I think your T had it right. Your husband needs to grow up, but because he behaves immaturely, it probably makes it hard for you to not "parent" him.

It is very difficult not to parent him some days. That is what works. I am doing a lot better at not parenting and not caretaking. I still have a long way to go.

Hugs to you, and I think you have been doing really good considering you are in a tough situation.

Thank you for the hugs! This definitely isn't how I imagined marriage or middle age.