Do men and women with BPD paint their partners black in similar ways?

[thisworld]

I have read many experiences of heterosexual partners where where the female BPD partner paints the male partner black, very black during the relationship. But I also have come across experiences similar to mine, where we - as women- were not painted black like that but a control aspect moved in slowly and insidiously. My ex had rages where he said really nasty stuff to me (sick woman, crazy b*tch whatnot) and in a mature discussion, he would respond to anything like a three year old and resorted to a very dismissive communication style. I can also understand the smear campain and other "punishments" after the split-up. However, I don't think I was painted black badly. I'm just thinking is it different for males with BPD because behaviours, words related with painting black would very obviously signalled abuse and he somehow didn't want to appear abusive at that level? Or was it because of gender roles - like men are trained not to communicate their emotional complaints in lengthy monologues? What are your experiences?   

[SummerStorm]

My pwBPD is a woman, and so am I.  She has painted very black most of her ex-boyfriends and has told everyone that they abused her.  We weren't in an actual relationship, but we did have sex, and she considered leaving her boyfriend for me.  She has painted me black a few times, but there has never been a smear campaign. 

Why is this?  It's hard to tell.  Perhaps some of it has to do with how men and women are viewed by society.  It may also have something to do with the perception most people have of abuse victims (female) and abusers (male).  It's easy for many people to believe that a man was abusive but not as easy for them to believe that a woman was. 

[thisworld]

SummerStorm,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Maybe, women are able to validate women at a different level and she felt understood more. The more I read about being painted and white, the more complex it seems. I now think that maybe I didn't give my partner enough material to be exploited later, so I'm whitish and dull in his eyes now - it was ego-breaking at first, but is safer for me. Painting me black might be bringing him closer to his own wounds, so white but dull seems a good solution.

I agree with everything you say about the societal aspect.

Stay strong

[Teereese]

  thisworld

My stbxh painted me black (or attempted to) to his family, friends and coworkers throughout our relationship. I was aware of some of his smear during the relationship, as his family, friends or coworkers would let it slip in social settings in conversation with me. I was very rarely included in his friendships or with his coworkers, because some of his "stories" came to light.

Since the relationship began deteriorating, I have found that he painted me black (or attempted to) to my own family and friends. I believe he intended to try to discredit me proactively, as the end came near. He also intended to isolate me. He would tell me horrible things that others "said to him" about me, to attempt to drive wedges in relationships and friendships. Very manipulative.

I found that marital and relationship issues and discussions were regularly shared to family, friends and coworkers by him in a twisted manner to garner sympathy and pity.

I could not share hopes, dreams, disappointments, hurts or any personal thoughts or feelings with him. He used anything I shared against me.

He truly had no boundaries.

[fromheeltoheal]

The painting thing can be misleading; idealizing and devaluing can be more accurate.  At the beginning of a relationship a borderline idealizes a new attachment, accentuates what they see as good, in fact subsumes that as their own, and fits the attachment into a new fantasy relationship that will finally make all the pain go away and make them whole; gender-specific terms at the time may include "knight in shining armor" and "angel".  Then as the relationship and the disorder go through the phases, the once-idealized partner becomes devalued, the relationship isn't working, the fantasy is dying, the borderline feels shame, projects it, the wheels come off, the partner is now scum.  And per usual, borderlines with their intense emotions are an amped-up version of what everyone goes through in relationships, the honeymoon stage, the end of the honeymoon, the sustainable long-term relationship, or not.  Although there's the independence, dependence and interdependence stages of a healthy relationship that someone without a 'self' of their own couldn't go through.

On a macro level the tendency to assign a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder to women and narcissistic personality disorder to men is not gender-neutral and a symptom of societal gender roles and cultural rules, even though the disorders are distinctly different from a clinical perspective.  And for added wrinkle, comorbidity of disorders is common, pretty much the norm: I read something recently where a psych claimed she'd never known a borderline who wasn't narcissistic.  Many layers of fun, although in the end the labels don't matter, it's the behaviors, why we put up with them, why we might have stayed longer than we should, what part did we play in the dance, and what we do to heal from the fallout.

[C.Stein]

On a macro level the tendency to assign a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder to women and narcissistic personality disorder to men is not gender-neutral and a symptom of societal gender roles and cultural rules, even though the disorders are distinctly different from a clinical perspective.

I might suggest that we remove gender bias altogether.  It really doesn't matter what the diagnosed disorder is.  What matters is how the actions/choices of the people in our lives (in this case our exs) impacts us, specifically our own emotional stability and actions/choices.  While I can see the value in clinical diagnosis from a treatment standpoint, secondarily for understanding behavior, in the end all that matters is how it impacts those of us who are close to these "disordered" people.

[thisworld]

Teereese,

I feel for you. I went through something similar in my relationship, am now white and dull after some serious acting out on my partner's behalf (yes, smear campaigns etc) but he is so volatile in his actions and emotions that he may increase the attempt to damage. RO is very difficult to get in my country. I want NC, he cannot accept it, my T strongly advises gray rock (and even going there gradually). It's stressful. I'm having to read him strategically which is exhausting and very difficult - still, I'm trying to give it my best shot.   

On a macro level the tendency to assign a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder to women and narcissistic personality disorder to men is not gender-neutral and a symptom of societal gender roles and cultural rules, even though the disorders are distinctly different from a clinical perspective.  And for added wrinkle, comorbidity of disorders is common, pretty much the norm: I read something recently where a psych claimed she'd never known a borderline who wasn't narcissistic.  Many layers of fun, although in the end the labels don't matter, it's the behaviors, why we put up with them, why we might have stayed longer than we should, what part did we play in the dance, and what we do to heal from the fallout.

I've read the similar from Screiber and Allen, have been told the similar by my T and have heard this from pwBPD who have come some way in therapy. My experience fits this. I see my ex-partner as a somatic narcissist anyway, regardless of the inner workings because for whatever reason the behaviours are very very similar and that's where I realistically start and end in a relationship (this boundary may be extended with some understanding of BPD perhaps but the sadness he gives me is what I would get from a NPD. Some other person would get this from ASPD.)

I'm aware that it's about us. However, with my particular situation, unfortunately I'll have to be reading him for a while. How I wish I could just focus on myself - which I'm doing by the way and am actually enjoying it more than trying to grasp him. I would have almost zero problems with NC, I would get the craving sometimes but have the cognitive ability to see that it is not about love for me. This transitory period can still lure me in sometimes - not into a relationship but into curiosity about him- but in the end, I just want to put this behind me. At the moment, I guess, I'm having to increase my tolerance for anxiety.

C.Stein, I agree that we may attempt to remove gender bias. Yet, I also believe that it would be possible only after deconstructing certain gender biases within ourselves, which would allow us to understand our experience from a different perspective. I have a close male friend who got stuck in a long-term relationship with a BPD female. He was very negatively affected. It's interesting though, our ex- partners were very similar but we responded to it very differently. Certain things I found very controlling and threatening were exciting and even passionate for him and he didn't feel threatened. He even said, "wow, cool:))" But my very dismissive male partner didn't pester me -for lack of a better word- for long periods like his female partner because he probably thought it was "womanly" behaviour - whatever that is. In the end of the day, no experience or coping skill develops outside a gendered world. I think we, for our healing reasons, can tend to remove this aspect (and we should) but I think gender plays a role for me when trying to grasp what has happened to me.   

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

I'm aware that it's about us. However, with my particular situation, unfortunately I'll have to be reading him for a while. How I wish I could just focus on myself - which I'm doing by the way and am actually enjoying it more than trying to grasp him. I would have almost zero problems with NC, I would get the craving sometimes but have the cognitive ability to see that it is not about love for me. This transitory period can still lure me in sometimes - not into a relationship but into curiosity about him- but in the end, I just want to put this behind me. At the moment, I guess, I'm having to increase my tolerance for anxiety.

Don't know if you've been over there, but the folks on the Staying board have developed and use tools to deal with borderlines in their lives and you may find some value there, as well as the Undecided and Staying boards; there's a screw-them-I'm-out vibe on Leaving, you probably noticed.  Also, no contact is a tool not a rule, and there are proponents here of limited contact, a way to develop mental tools and balance and test them in real time, as well as avoid the drama that is complete no contact.

[thisworld]

Thank you Fromheeltoheal, that's certainly an idea.

But my end goal is different, we're now separated. But he doesn't let go and is a bit volatile. So I have to move from gradual decrease of narcissistic supply to gray rock where I'll be so bland that hopefully he decides HE doesn't want me and not bother with his vengeful personal sabotages - that he keeps on stating from time to time. (I'm OK with some smear campaigns but not OK with professional damage etc.) In what way do you think those boards may help me? Wouldn't they be motivating for him - like to be with me and be a better partner? I'm trying to do the opposite -to cause a feeling in him that he doesn't want me. I'm sorry if this sounds like an utterly silly question, everything about this guy confuses me sometimes.  

I'm reading those boards by the way, but don't know what to look for in the sense above.

[fromheeltoheal]

In what way do you think those boards may help me? Wouldn't they be motivating for him - like to be with me and be a better partner? I'm trying to do the opposite -to cause a feeling in him that he doesn't want me.

I'm reading those boards by the way, but don't know what to look for in the sense above.

The goal with an ongoing relationship with a borderline, someone who experiences intense emotions and doesn't have the ability to self-soothe, is to learn the triggers and not trigger them, learn how to walk on eggshells without breaking them I suppose.  If I get you right, you're developing skills to make yourself unattractive to him so he goes off in search of new attachments on his own, yes?  There's a little overlap with that and what the Staying folks are up to, doesn't mean the goal is to reestablish or continue a relationship with him.  Me, I have no patience for that, I wanted to kill my ex as I fled the relationship, I was completely done, so the rest of us on Leaving and I may not add the value you need beyond support and discussion of the disorder.  A common recommendation is to act "boring", no emotional engagement, short answers, no initiation, and the borderline will just go away, maybe the gray rock thing, but that's limited compared to what the Staying folks have come up with.

I'm sorry if this sounds like an utterly silly question, everything about this guy confuses me sometimes.  

No worries, we've all been completely out of our heads at some point, if it was easy and mundane this site wouldn't be necessary.  Take care of you!

[thisworld]

Froomheeltoheal thank you. I was on the staying board and seriously, there is great value in what you were saying. So many experiences. This board helps me for myself, making sense of it and detaching. That board has a different experience. Hopefully, I'll feel more empowered combining the two:) Thank you for pointing that out. That never occurred to me, wow.   

[fromheeltoheal]

Froomheeltoheal thank you. I was on the staying board and seriously, there is great value in what you were saying. So many experiences. This board helps me for myself, making sense of it and detaching. That board has a different experience. Hopefully, I'll feel more empowered combining the two:) Thank you for pointing that out. That never occurred to me, wow.