Advice needed - stuck

[Parents! Get help here!]

Hi

I really need advice and guidance.

Our son is 25 and returned home 2 weeks ago as he said he was suicidal and very low. We told him things would be different, that we had changed, that we didn't know what would happen but that we knew he would need to live independently and could not stay with us indefinitely. He agreed and said he'd changed too. We are all stuck in a situation at the moment.

He's refused support with a mental health support group. He visited his doctor but said he won't help him. Our family doctor thinks tough love is needed on our part.

My husband asked me to not do or say anything for a while. He said he couldn't emotionally cope with what needs to happen next. So I agreed. We're all being pleasant with one another, not rising when faced with his mood swings. Xmas has been very difficult. Our younger son (15) has been great.

So the problem is that we are expecting our BPD son to either get a job or go on benefits. Once on benefits they will expect him to apply for jobs. This sounds reasonable doesn't it? Others with BPD work? Support themselves?

If we force him to apply for jobs we will end up in our old nagging behaviours. If he agrees to sign on for benefits it WILL go wrong because he won't turn up for the appointments. So honestly what is the point. He needs to do these things for himself.

The job/work has ALWAYS been the issue with our son. We've paid for him for the last 4 months but refuse to any longer. So currently we feed him but nothing else. He is responsible for himself but it's like he doesn't realise it. He has enough cigarettes to last a while but no money for weed or socialising. . He's reverted back to his old behaviour and spends most of his time out, or on Facebook or writing poetry about his problems. He is not looking for work and it's like he's waiting for us to make a move.

This situation cannot go on forever. Are we asking too much?  He refuses to do anything to help himself. I can't see any other way forward but to kick him out on the street.

Thank you in advance

[Lollypop]

Hi

I really need advice and guidance.

Our son is 25 and returned home 2 weeks ago as he said he was suicidal and very low. We told him things would be different, that we had changed, that we didn't know what would happen but that we knew he would need to live independently and could not stay with us indefinitely. He agreed and said he'd changed too. We are all stuck in a situation at the moment.

He's refused support with a mental health support group. He visited his doctor but said he won't help him. Our family doctor thinks tough love is needed on our part.

My husband asked me to not do or say anything for a while. He said he couldn't emotionally cope with what needs to happen next. So I agreed. We're all being pleasant with one another, not rising when faced with his mood swings. Xmas has been very difficult. Our younger son (15) has been great.

So the problem is that we are expecting our BPD son to either get a job or go on benefits. Once on benefits they will expect him to apply for jobs. This sounds reasonable doesn't it? Others with BPD work? Support themselves?

If we force him to apply for jobs we will end up in our old nagging behaviours. If he agrees to sign on for benefits it WILL go wrong because he won't turn up for the appointments. So honestly what is the point. He needs to do these things for himself.

The job/work has ALWAYS been the issue with our son. We've paid for him for the last 4 months but refuse to any longer. So currently we feed him but nothing else. He is responsible for himself but it's like he doesn't realise it. He has enough cigarettes to last a while but no money for weed or socialising. . He's reverted back to his old behaviour and spends most of his time out, or on Facebook or writing poetry about his problems. He is not looking for work and it's like he's waiting for us to make a move.

This situation cannot go on forever. Are we asking too much?  He refuses to do anything to help himself. I can't see any other way forward but to kick him out on the street.

Thank you in advance

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

I forgot to mention that our son is delusional, he thinks it's for others to work and pay taxes, he's very special and will make it big. He doesn't want to work in a mental job as he feels he's highly intelligent. (I can tell you he's a great talker and very eloquent!) He has very poor executive functioning.

Thought you needed to know this

[Lollypop]

Menial job

[twojaybirds]

sounds like you could use some boundaries.

What does your son need to do to stay living with you?

How long will you give him to accomplish that?

I find myself asking if I am in a FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) when I make these decision.

Not healthiest way to make decisions.

Think what you and your husband need for you.

[Lollypop]

Thank you twojaybirds for replying.

We will be retiring in 4 years and will be moving area. We have our own life to live. My husband can't cope with our BPD son. My youngest son at 15 is sick of the situation and resentful. He's well balanced and will do something with his life.

What we want, we won't most probably get and we accept it. we want our BPD son to get a job, any job. We think this is what he needs To start fixing himself and to improve his self confidence. All with the aim of getting him out of our house again. If he was at least trying we would be happier to accept him staying with us. However, we know from experience he'll do nothing.

We are so tired. It's been 10 years of drug uses and chaos. we haven't always got it right but have done our best. We aren't tied up in knots with stress, we are calm. we have reached the realisation that our BPD son needs to want to fix himself, motivate himself. He sticks his head in the sand, hates feeling out of his comfort zone, uses us. We have always caved in in the past and taken control to "help". It's all been futile. but Truly no more. He won't get another penny from us. We've spent thousands this year and it's beyond ridiculous. We say NO more. However, we are at least trying to build bridges, connect to him and hope to have a relationship. But he has to leave or do SOMETHING, anything other than the existence he's currently living. As a last resort we're hoping that if he feels we're not "at" him he can have some headspace to think. This may be naieve of us.

What I'm asking is... .hell what am I asking? How long can we bear this situation? if he's not cooperating and not wanting to start resolving his own problems what is the point?  I'm kind of asking myself these questions rather than you. It's completely hopeless. He manipulates, avoids, lies, Steals, threatens suicide, can barely speak when feeling down, has no empathy with any of us, he's an arsehole, he knows it - but can't change. It's like he's a spoilt brat and throws a tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants.

[Lollypop]

I've read the boundaries and wise mind notes and found them really interesting. But I'm confused:

Our boundary is basically, you must be financially independent eventually.

But the notes say that boundaries are not having it our way.

[SoSoSoTired]

Since you are feeding him and providing free rent, there is no motivation for him to change.  Yes, he's depressed, but enabling your physically healthy BPD son to not enter therapy and remain unemployed could also be lethal to him. 

Letting a previous drug abuser live in your house without employment is a recipe for having all your valuables stolen and having your home and assets permanently seized by law enforcement.   

www.cnn.com/2014/09/03/us/philadelphia-drug-bust-house-seizure/

Your younger son will not remain "well balanced" for long with the misery of having an unemployed, unmotivated, depressed, manipulative, ex-drug addicted BPD living in his home. 

Read books on codependency.  Move him out of your nice home and into a slum that he can afford with a minimum wage job.  He is the only person who can change himself.

[Lollypop]

Thank you,thank you, thank you sosotired. You are of course right in all you say.

So, he has to leave.

We knew that when we allowed him back. We will decide how long we will allow this current situation to carry on. My gut feeling is 1 more week to see if he decides to do something for himself. We need to decide which of the following we will do:

1. throw him out on the street,

2. drop him off at the local council as emergency homeless or

3. facilitate (force) him to get assisted housing/benefits and then they will expect him to apply for jobs as he's fit for work

Ive lost all confidence in myself and parenting. We can't but help feel we've failed but we both know we will be ok, whatever happens.

He was only diagnosed 3 months ago and we've not studied the condition. We feel he's responsible for it and his recovery. We love him but don't like him or his behaviour.

How have others approached this problem?

How best can we decide what to do given that he's BPD, depressed and suicidation?

[madmom]

I don't know if this will help, but we insisted our daughter do at least one of the following in order for us to continue to have her in our home---find work, go to school or volunteer somewhere, and go to therapy (she went individually and we went as a family group)  The family therapist helped us with communication and how much to expect from our daughter and when.  The therapist explained to us that the volunteering was maybe the best option as a beginning because the pressure is less and maybe she could work on herself and her self esteem.  She enjoyed animals and did a program to volunteer at the local humane society.  It was a good start---it was something for her to do and she felt wanted and needed.  I wish you luck in this most difficult situation.  I do know that sometimes you have to do some very hard and what feels like unloving and unsupportive things for our children to find the strength to pull themselves out of the rabbit hole and get better.  Please continue to tell us how your stories evolves, we are here to support you on this difficult road we all walk together.

[Lollypop]

Thanks madmom for the reply. I'm so pleased you've found a way forward. It gives me hope.

We've suggested voluntary work in the past. We nearly got him there but, as I drove away he did an about turn and walked 5 miles home. I admit this was 7 years ago but every time I suggested it since he just says I'm not working for free for anyone.

It's weird writing this as I can now see how his behaviour is just a cover for his insecurities. I remember at the time calling up my best friend and we were both absolutely incredulous that he hadn't be made the door.

I've had some tough lessons over the years (like so many other people I guess). It's been a very lonely place as all our friends kids had their successes and moved on with their lives. I'm not looking for sympathy at all. We've accepted that our lives have turned out different, our life path most probably won't be the conventional one with grandkids etc.

We are feeling strong. Its New Year's Eve and he has no money. How sad is that? 25 years old and he can't really join in with his friends. He asked for money from his younger brother this afternoon but fortunately our younger son refused. It's so sad, he just can't seem to make a step forward.

So Thank you everybody for reading. I know we need to stop negatively enabling him. It's scary though as I truly believe he'll try suicide.  He's been low since Xmas eve and I told him he wouldn't receive a penny more from us. He needed to get a job.

[donnab]

Hi Lollypop sounds like this is all taking a huge strain on you. (sounds also like you're in the UK too?)

I don't know what the answer is, but I have found myself realising (once again) that I am completely codependent with my BPDd22 over the last week. It's such a shock to have this realisation again! How do I not see this? I don't know but there it is.

Painful as it is my dd's situation will not change until she feels continuing the way she is is more painful than making the changes (I think) she needs to. And that means facing the pain of her consequences. I cannot continue to rescue her from this pain, and all the time I am doing this I am hurting her. I also realise I cannot keep keeping on like a worn out record saying seek therapy. She has to decide what will work for her, she has to make her choices.

So I will no longer let her stay at our house. I made a stand in May 2013 after her last rage at me which lasted hours. This has caused her immeasurable pain over the Christmas period as I said she could come here for Christmas day & Boxing day but she would need to stay at a friend's house overnight. This friend's house is about 40 mins drive away and he was away for Christmas, but I was prepared to pick her up and drop her off both days. This was not acceptable to her so instead she didn't come. I have since been on the end of her emotional abuse as she is hurting that she has been alone over Christmas. It has been very painful for me and the emotional abuse makes my head hurt so I can't think straight. But these are her choices and are the consequence of her previous behaviour. I have been clear until she enters into therapy she cannot stay here. Period.

We have custody of her 2 1/2 year old dd. Often she doesn't turn up to her contact dates - in fact over November and December out of a possible 12 visits she only came 4 times. This breaks her heart and in her suffering I want to make extra days available but she has to realise the reason she is suffering is because of choices she made, and if I rescue her now to ease her suffering will it make her more or less likely to keep our next arrangement? She doesn't see the impact this is having on me and her dd when at least once a week we are just sitting around waiting to see if she turns up or not. So it's hard and painful but she now has to wait until the next visit next week.

Her benefits have been stopped because she didn't go to the doctors last week and get a sick certificate. I know she's depressed but she lives in a support housing scheme and does have the support to address these issues but she is choosing not to. Again if I were to give her money is this going to make her more or less likely to make sure she goes to the doctors on time next fortnight?

I read something about codependency and detaching with love the other day and it said in order to detach with love you have to truly accept you are not responsible for the chaos and problems in another person's life. Herein lies the nub of it. 2 days ago my dd said to me (amongst other very painful things) if I had been a better mother she wouldn't be in this situation and I cannot repair the damage of her childhood through my granddaughter. This cut me like a knife, as you can imagine. But the reality is if she made some steps towards recovery her life wouldn't be like this, she knows it and I know it but it is easier to project it on me than to take those first steps.

I don't know the answer, we all have pain in life and goodness knows it's not easy but I know there is another road where we can still love & support our adult children without being 100% responsible for their emotional and physical health. 2016 is the year I find this road, and I hope the same for you and your family x

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

thanks for sharing Donnab

We can only hope that it works out OK in the end. I hope I have your strength when our time comes soon. We've come a long way from where we were. I'll let you all know how it goes later in the week.

I wish everyone a happy, healthy and peaceful 2016.

L

[Lollypop]

We had a talk today with son BPD.

We managed to reign the conversation back in when he started to react. He's very depressed, hopeless and says he only has one friend in the world. We told him he had a choice to remain in misery and stuck. He needs to take one step at a time.

He started going on about his condition and that he would never ever have a happy life. I pointed out that I'd read up on BPD and I understood he could learn ways to strengthen his mental control, he'd manage it with practise and strategies. Thank you forum for your help with informing me. Knowledge is power.

He says he can see we've changed and i think he appreciates the calm house. I was really firm and clear: there are no boundaries other than get a job or go on benefits.

My husband made three comments in our chat. He struggles with this whole thing and unfortunately our son BPD reacted badly on each interaction. What's become clear is that our son HATES his dad and blames him.

I can't help feeling I've contributed to this situation. I always was the one to deal with our son and his challenging behaviour. Nothing I can do to change that now. It'll take a very long time to heal if ever.

We both came away thinking the same thought. That our son will try suicide again. I'm trying not to be scared. All very calm. Clear words. If you can't get yourself unstuck then we will do it for him and he has to leave the house. After many minutes of silence our son BPD said he'd deal with it.

The balls in his court

[Lollypop]

Hi again,

Can't get my mind off the conversation.

He said "I don't want to grow up"

[Dibdob59]

Not wanting to grow up is, in my experience, a core fear for the BPDs in my life.

[SoSoSoTired]

It's estimated that 10% of Borderlines kill successfully take their own lives.  Is your son on antidepressants?  Is so, they may not be the choice of medications for him to feel better.

(Respectfully stated)  I don't believe that your son told a physician that he was depressed and suicidal and a physician told your son that he/she wouldn't help him.  The liability/risk is just too high for a physician to have done that.  It's worrisome that he told you that.   

Since your son won't join a mental health group and said a physician won't help him, the next time he does or says anything r/t suicide, call 911.  Get him admitted.  Tell the police and ambulance crew that your son

1.  has a history of suicide

2.  is not on antidepressants

3.  said "I am going to kill myself"

Follow him to the ER.   Tell the triage nurse that you MUST speak to your son's physician/midlevel provider. Tell the ER physician/midlevel provider the same 3 things.  The health care provider cannot share details of your son's assessment with you, but they will listen to what you have to say. Your son will be involuntarily admitted for a minimum of 72 hours unless there are no empty psychiatric beds in your vicinity.  While admitted, professionals will assess his depression and prescribe appropriate medication.  The psych unit's social worker will provide him with options for continuing his medical treatment upon discharge.  If your son gives his permission, you can speak with the charge nurse, and the social worker, and possibly his physician.   

[VegasMom]

Hi Lollypop.   My son sounds so much like yours. They are close in age, also. The only difference is that mine lives out of state, so we are supporting him long distance. But, he also doesn't work ... .He is delusional, too ... .Feeling like he is smarter than anyone else and is meant for much "bigger things" ... .My son is very much into conspiracy theory and the whole Anonymous movement. He spends hours online "researching" and of course, playing video games, on Facebook, and smoking pot. And like you, I worry if he applies for assistance, he won't show up for appts, interviews or anything else, for that matter. It's a lose/lose situation. And, he too, will not get medical help or take medications to help his mental health. He doesn't feel like he has a problem ... .According to him, it's everyone else who is sick and deranged. He's the only "normal one" ... .I am afraid to stop supporting him because I cannot bear the thought of him being homeless and out on the streets. I really don't know what to do ... .And like your son, mine is also sad and depressed and has expressed that he wishes he would just die. Although, he told me he won't commit suicide traditionally, he will do something crazy and reckless so that it happens on its own ... .I have to go back home on Jan 10 th and I am afraid to leave him when things are so unsettled (I am here in WA with him now because he was sick and refused to go to the Dr, so I flew up and convinced him to go - Now I am fighting with him daily to take his antibiotics) ... .What a nightmare. I feel your pain ... .

[Lollypop]

Thanks sosotired

It's good very good advice. I feel stupid because I wouldn't have thought about this and we now know practically what we need to say and do.

We live in the uk and BPD is seen as (respectfully) a label. Our family doctor believes his underlying problem is anxiety. BPDS has seen other doctors in the past. Mental health support has been historically lacking in this country but things are now improving. He accepted Anti depressants a couple of times but he stopped because "they weren't working". He finally got to see a mental health nurse in 2014 but she refused to assess him because he smoked weed. He was by then seeing a drugs counsellor with an opiate addiction and was prescribed subutex. This turned out to be a complete nightmare and his relationship broke down with the counsellor. As far as I'm concerned we've all been let down by everyone. Our BPDs has no faith in any of them, particularly after receiving hospital treatment and referral in the USA with a diagnosis in 2 days.

I'm not going to encourage him to see a family doctor again, maybe wrongly. They've got me down as a parent who doesn't give out tough love. Nods obviously can go any time he wants and ask to see somebody else. He spent years gobbling tablets and had a codeine addiction so I'm not convinced he'd cope with medication.

We intend to carry on with this current course of action. No money given to him. Insisting on a job or benefits. If he doesn't start to help himself he then has to leave the house. We will take him to the hospital the next time he mentions suicide and insist on admittance - not leaflets as has happened in the past.

I've forgotten to mention there's never been any violence. also he's drug free which actually is quite unbelievable given his history.

Thanks for reading and advice.

[Lollypop]

Hi Lollypop.   My son sounds so much like yours. They are close in age, also. The only difference is that mine lives out of state, so we are supporting him long distance. But, he also doesn't work ... .He is delusional, too ... .Feeling like he is smarter than anyone else and is meant for much "bigger things" ... .My son is very much into conspiracy theory and the whole Anonymous movement. He spends hours online "researching" and of course, playing video games, on Facebook, and smoking pot. And like you, I worry if he applies for assistance, he won't show up for appts, interviews or anything else, for that matter. It's a lose/lose situation. And, he too, will not get medical help or take medications to help his mental health. He doesn't feel like he has a problem ... .According to him, it's everyone else who is sick and deranged. He's the only "normal one" ... .I am afraid to stop supporting him because I cannot bear the thought of him being homeless and out on the streets. I really don't know what to do ... .And like your son, mine is also sad and depressed and has expressed that he wishes he would just die. Although, he told me he won't commit suicide traditionally, he will do something crazy and reckless so that it happens on its own ... .I have to go back home on Jan 10 th and I am afraid to leave him when things are so unsettled (I am here in WA with him now because he was sick and refused to go to the Dr, so I flew up and convinced him to go - Now I am fighting with him daily to take his antibiotics) ... .What a nightmare. I feel your pain ... .

Hi there Vegasmom

We live in the uk and our BPDs moved out to California in May this year. So I know how hard it is trying to support them long distance. He reached a very low point because we were expecting him to work and to help financially. The expenses were crippling us and we couldn't continue. Anyway he felt he would do something very stupid, particularly with Xmas coming. He agreed to come back 3 weeks ago.

We are glad he's back. We'd got into a situation where he was controlling us 6000 miles away! Now we're in control and we will see this through. He HAS to support himself, either through work or by claiming benefits (but they will make him apply for jobs). We see that we've been part of the prblem and continue to be so, he feels guilty and will continue to feel this while we give. we have to be strong as he isn't. . The best favour we can do him is to let him fall. We just pray that the ensuing crisis will create something that helps him.

My emotions go up and down like a roller coaster. It's affecting our health and lives. We have a younger to consider. Somehow, this situation has to change.

I'm sorry this isn't a great reply but I'm on my phone. It's near my bedtime so hopefully we can talk some more over the week.

Thanks for sharing vegasmom

[Lollypop]

Thanks to sosotired.

I went for a walk with my BPDs yesterday with our dogs. We chatted and it helped me see that nothing's changed. He ducks and dives and there's always a reason and justification to do nothing.

Anyway, I got him to agree to go to the emergency dept in the hope somebody would listen; that maybe he'd get a referral. It worked!

The emergency doctor hinted at BPDs being admitted. I was deleriously happy, BPDs very unhappy and said to me "it'll make it worse, I'm not staying". I knew then he'd try and manipulate the situation with the mental health guy who had the final decision. Ive got to tell you my BPDs is good when motivated, slick, confident, eloquent and convinced him he was in no danger of suicide.

BPDs allowed me the opportunity to speak with the mental health guy (with BPDs) after he'd done an assessment. I used it and just listed out his behaviours and said at the end "we as a family cannot cope any more. Our son needs to live somewhere where he can get the help he needs".

Bpds got VERY angry and started to speak like a machine gun rattling off. There was a bit of an exchange and BPDs bullying and the mental health guy tried sticking up for me. it felt good giving my version in front of BPDs; im hoping this will motivate him (admittedly through anger) to move out.

We wait two weeks for a appt with the community health team who will do an assessment and decide on the next action. They can come to the house to do this. Meantime BPDs is supposed to go back to the doctor surgery and ask for medication.

That's about it. Happy to be unstuck for a bit. The delusional me is thinking "ah, now he knows we don't want him with us any more he may get a job and move out!". Pigs might fly!

Hilariously in the car going home BPDs said "I can't believe you're going to be throwing me out". Quick as a flash I said back "but son we aren't going to be throwing you out because you've just told the doctor what you're going to do, you said you're going to get a job and move back to California. We won't need to throw you out then will we."

[Lollypop]

For the first time EVER BPDs woke up today and is researching job vacancies. Unbelievable.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

Yeh! So happy for you today

Despite all, our children want to get better, at some point, a starting point.

Hugs to you and your child.