Setting a concrete boundary around my sleep needs

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

One reason to address to FIL is that he does not live in house and was the one making the biggest commotion.

How do you think a judge would look at that?

Petty.

You brought in your dad, she brought in hers.

Your dad doesn't live in the house either. You are not married to your dad, in this situation he is your landlord. Rules of the house are generally determined by a husband and wife, for the children. Setting up rules with your dad, instead of your wife, appears to have caused quite a commotion has it not? 

[Suzn]

One reason to address to FIL is that he does not live in house and was the one making the biggest commotion.

How do you think a judge would look at that?

Petty.

You brought in your dad, she brought in hers.

Your dad doesn't live in the house either. You are not married to your dad, in this situation he is your landlord. Rules of the house are generally determined by a husband and wife, for the children. Setting up rules with your dad, instead of your wife, appears to have caused quite a commotion has it not? 

[Verbena]

Sunflower mentioned that CPS had been called in the past because of corporal punishment by your wife.  I guess I missed those posts. 

Last weekend she screamed and dropped F-bombs and threatened police involvement if you tried to stop her from taking the kids on an outing, then did what she could to keep you from sleeping.  This weekend she encouraged children to prohibit you again from sleeping and asked them to join in and verbally abuse you.  If CPS has a file on her, wouldn't they need to be made aware of this? 

Someone needs to make your wife accountable.  I have little hope that person is you, FF. 

[formflier]

Ummm, no.

My wife setting up rules and ways of doing things in he house that undermined the central purposes for purchasing the house is what caused the commotion.

It was in full flare before I made decision to call my Dad.  I was either going to call my Dad or the police.  There was nothing further I could accomplish, legally or morally to sleep in the house.

Some sort of shakeup was needed to change dynamic.  Me restarting thislngs would have gone nowhere.

So, descriptors.  Before my Dad it was problematic, went up to flipped out after he got there, and multiple nukes went of when her Dad got there.

Police showing up sent wife into hysterics crying and telling ridiculous tales.

Police came in my room and talked to a calm guy that was 180 out from what wife described and FIL.  I could see the What the heck look on his face.  I think he got the dynamic.

FF

[Fian]

2 suggestions.  One, I would not recommend recording in a legal letter your past mistakes.  They might use it against you in the future.  Two, I think you should look into pursuing the abuse angle further.  If you do not get your sleep, what will happen to you?  By actively trying to interfere with your sleep, they are actively trying to cause those negative effects.

However, I also don't see how a judge can resolve this for you.  Who determines when they are interfering with your sleep?  It would become a he said, she said scenario.  The best that he could do is evict your family (maybe just your wife) from your house, and you live there alone.

[Suzn]

Ummm... .no.

My wife setting up rules and ways of doing things in he house that undermined the central purposes for purchasing the house is what caused the commotion.

I see.

My Dad came over and clarified house rules for her and that his son gets to take care if his sleep issues in this house.

Here's where it gets cloudy.

[patientandclear]

FF, I see two different theories among posters in this thread.

One (which I think is yours too): your wife for whatever reason (move stress, stress from being the breadwinner) escalated mistreatment of you and moved it into zone that you just cannot let roll off (sleep); therefore, you brought your dad in as witness and to bring light on the situation, possibly (this was true in my abusive marriage when I knew in my gut it had to end) a bid by your superego or whatever to make it harder for you to paper this over.

Two (which I think is Suzn's and a few others): before you moved in, your dad got involved in laying out the rules of the house.  Your wife subconsciously chafed at this and is now bending over backwards to break these rules to show she can, she will not be controlled by you and your dad, it is her house too.  Part of which (it is her house too) completely resonates with me.  I have to say the whole "my dad owns the house we're living in so I win any battles about house rules" situation makes me really queasy.

Have you weighed seriously the possibility that it is the second scenario and not the first?  Again, this is coming from someone (me) who would probably have exited your marriage before this because of the consistent pattern of putting you down and manipulating the kids in your marriage battles, so I don't lightly step into her shoes.  But the whole "is this even my house?" feeling for your wife does ring true to me.  I think it is a big, big mistake for one of you to have a primary relationship with your landlord and for the landlord relationship to be a chip either of you can play in struggles over house rules.

If you don't like the way she's dealing with you or treating you, in my view, YOU need to resolve it, by making some tough decisions and difficult moves, not take a shortcut by invoking an unfair advantage -- the fact that the house owner happens to be on your side.

[formflier]

I see where I created confusion.  Sorry, so many details.

My Dad never once was involved in any way with creating or enforcing any house rule or debate about the house.

What he did ask very pointed questions about was "Is this going to work"?  Not in a figuring it all out way but in making a determination if his purchase of the house would achieve its purpose.  He was doing his due dillegence.

There were a. Couple things he had more questions on and instead of helping  us solve he said that we needed to work on an issue more and get back to him.

The first time in 20 years he has ever been involved in any marriage issue was this.  

This should indicate the seriousness of this issue and that it will be resolved expeditiously.

Good comments.  Lots for me to think on, keep them coming.

FF

Note.  I do get where p&c is coming from.  I see the point about it is my responsibility.  I can resolve this quicker by quickly involving outside resources.  My Dad is one of those.  Quickly is critical.

[HurtinNW]

I work in the criminal justice system. In my opinion trying to file a restraining order to demand silence for sleep is going nuclear.

Restraining orders are not meant to be used within existing relationships. They are meant to provide safety to an escaping battered spouse. In fact when signing them the judge usually issues a non-contact order. If you file a restraining order the no-contact order will mean one of you leaving the home and having very limited contact with your children.

Your wife will need to get an attorney. Court hearings are mandatory for restraining orders, and open to the public, so her job may hear about it, which could be bad for her. Things might escalate. Badly. I am worried that the judge would find against you in the hearing. Wanting to sleep is important but you have other options. Filing a retraining order for sleep will make you look like the crazy, demanding one. If you do have to move towards divorce it is the kind of thing that an attorney will use against you.

It sounds like your wife is being abusive, but please be careful her behavior is also not gaslighting you to the point you start doing regrettable things.

[Cat Familiar]

I work in the criminal justice system. In my opinion trying to file a restraining order to demand silence for sleep is going nuclear.

Attorney's wife here. I'll have to agree with Hurtin. Often what we may think is the "common sense" solution is not the legal one. I'm not seeing a basis for a RO and to pursue this path seemingly will damage you in the future.

[patientandclear]

Agree with Hurt.  Also consider ... .sort of like how they say that, by the time you're hiring a private investigator to spy on your spouse, you probably already know what you need to know ... .by the time you're considering going to court to get a court order to protect your essential interests in your household and marriage, you probably know something important about the status of that marriage.

So FF, from your answer above, sounds like you do NOT think your dad's involvement before you moved in was the trigger for the inconsiderate-to-abusive moves your wife has made re your health and happiness in the past few weeks.

If resolving the sleep issue truly is your hill to die on, and you will let the chips fall where they may re the marriage and other consequences to get that sorted out -- it is true that your dad could evict whomever he wants from that house.  He could let you resume tenancy (ideally with a written lease with these conditions) only because, and on condition that, you agree you will live there alone or with children, but without your wife (though if YOU wanted your wife to move back in, he probably could not enforce that provision against you, because there is a strong public policy recognized by courts that tenants get to choose their own family arrangements and landlords cannot dictate those.  That said, if only YOU are the tenant, only YOU have that enforceable right).  That could actually work.  I'd imagine it would have profound consequences for your marriage, so before you explore that route, I'd consult a family law lawyer and make sure in your heart of hearts you are really able to accept all the consequences of taking that step.  If my H did it to me I would feel it was terribly unfair, so you need to be at a point where that is a result (her justifiably thinking that it's terribly unfair) you can live with.

[formflier]

HurtinNW, what do you see as other options?  I really do want to make sure no stone unturned.

What I believe is my only workable option in the short term is for me to sleep in my bedroom with all the gizmos and gadgets I am used to.

FF

[formflier]

Correct.  My Dad's involvement in house was, or seemed to be appreciated by my wife.

Otherwise, no house.

My wife got her #1 pick of houses.    That pick was consistent for about a month before we did purchase offer.

No impulse here.  And I will say that my wife has been a good house picker for all our marriage.  They have all worked and generally played out as agreed.  Never before a huge departure from pre purchase "plan".  Never.

She has done sleep deprivation before, but we cut most of that out during early counseling.  They stuff that would pop up would be spur of moment hey I want to talk at 1am.  I walk away and come back in 10 min, or sometimes even 5 min and I go back to sleep.  Never give it a second thought.

One of the freaky things about this is that it feels cold and calculated.  Stable feeling of I will do this for a two weekends in a row.  This is new.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I can really sympathize with you about sleep deprivation. I've only experienced it a few times and it is devastating to me--I feel like my IQ is halved and I'm not completely rational.

That said, I tend to sleep really well on a regular basis. My husband, however, has a lot of difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep, so I guess I need to extend a bit more compassion and understanding to him about this. And lately, he's been dealing with high blood pressure, so he's had to quit drinking his usual one to one and a half bottle of wine. So he's undoubtedly detoxing too... .

But to get back to your issue about sleep deprivation. I really get how you've got to be prepared to deal with all your gizmos and plan to be emotionally relaxed so that you can get a good night's sleep. You have to have the proper conditions and that's not something that the average person can understand.

I'm concerned that if you try to make this the basis for a legal issue that people will be rolling their eyes behind your back and that they will minimize your problem--like "why can't this guy just take an Ambien like everybody else does?"

I don't have any good ideas for you and I agree that hotels are not a long-term strategy. Also, renting a room might be considered a step toward separation and count against you if you do move toward divorce. Having to buy a camper seems extreme and certainly not what you had hoped when you acquired this new house--and then you couldn't have your existing bed inside.

I'm sorry your wife is causing you so much distress. It certainly appears to be deliberate and if she won't talk to you about her concerns, I don't know how you can address this.  

[Verbena]

I think it feels "cold and calculated" to you because it is.  

As much as I think she planned all this chaos, I'm not sure even she realized how far she would end up taking it.  It would be nice if she recognized how abusive and out-of-control it was, but that may never happen.  

Your dad now has now seen her in action and her dad has shown his behind to everyone, including his own grandchildren.  It's just an ugly scene all the way around, but what's done is done and you do have to have a plan to move forward.  

I don't have any experience with RO's, but I don't see that working out well either.  I also don't see your wife sticking to any type of agreement about letting you sleep, at least not long term.  I do agree with others that getting some legal advice seems like a good idea.   

Once you can get your sleep situation sorted out, the well-being of your eight kids has to be top priority.  Your wife is doing great damage to them.  

[formflier]

Hey, to be clear, my wife has kept sleep agreements before with some " spur of the moment" breakings based on an immediate thing for her.

The long period of bad sleep stuff that I participated in, well, I chose to participate.  Sure she initiated and I didn't know better, but I chose to participate.

Yes I haven't lost my mind.  There are tons of "types" of agreements that I would be shocked if she didn't break.  Kids schedules, vacation plans, activity plans.  It is dysfunctional, I don't like it, but it is "normal" for me.  I use tools and move along.

You guys have accurately picked up that I am a bit freaked bit this for a number of reasons.  It seems she is changing the rules of the game.

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm following through on Patientandclear's post. Both of you are pulling the power strings when it comes to who is the main wage earner, who owns the house, who did what. These statements make the individuals in the couple feel unequal, and that is damaging to the relationship. Just like it stings to hear her say she is making the money, it would sting to bring up who paid for the house.


Also, as you stated in the letter, reminding family members of your work in the armed forces also has the effect of pulling power. Being good at a career, and relationship skills are not connected. There are many accomplished people who have miserable relationships and vice versa. Even the president of the US is just a dad to his kids, a husband to his wife, and the White House is the first lady's home too no matter who paid for it or who earned the privilege of living in it. In the context of their home, they are equal partners.

I have been on the receiving end of this, and it did considerable damage to the marriage. If this is how your wife felt when you were the main wage earner, then this behavior- even if it is not excusable- not letting you sleep is unacceptable- your wife pulling power because she is earning money could be in part because of her feeling of being less than equal.

[formflier]

Notwendy,

Really good stuff, awesome.

Couple things, not arguing just laying out mindset.  I don't care to hear her say that she earns money.  Non issue.  It's the I get to decide part.  She could have said she wears purple shoes and therefor I get to decide about the house and it would have had exactly the same effect on me.

Probably luckily, money is not that big a deal to me.  Just a bunch of numbers that need to fit in spreadsheet to get stuff done.  In my life I have been in the position where that spreadsheet had lots of zeros and now not so much.  Zeros come and go.  If you remember, my wife absconded with $30k and it really jacked a bunch of stuff up.  I wasn't really affected by the money part.  Funny thing is is probably helped me move past it very quickly.

I'm really wracking my brain to see if there is any "truth" to her point of view or if it is all perception.

I'm having a hard time coming up with it.  For a lot of our marriage I was deployed or in and out.  She made the decisions and I supported her.  Then there was several years when I was around more and (to me) it seemed like true compromise.  Year 15 of marriage, natural disaster and stuff started going off the rails.

I can look back and see hints of things here and there, but I don't think I'm cludo enough to suppress or cover up 15 years of anything close to this.

FF

[Notwendy]

What your wife said- using the fact that she makes money to justify making decisions that are not fair to you. Money- is a form of power and using money either literally or in a statement to claim the right to be unfair to a spouse or to diminish the contribution of a spouse is damaging to a marriage.

It may be just the way she is- not related to anything you did.

This is one thing that I didn't see coming in our marriage. We met as students- neither of us had any money and our first jobs were about equal pay. Then his earning potential rose while I cut back to take on the role of the home and kids. It was then that he decided that since he made the money - he got to decide what to do with it- and he would also use this to diminish my contribution as a mother / homemaker. He thought it was ok to buy expensive things and not tell me.

I felt more like his employee than his wife. Although he realized the damage this caused and stopped, I still struggle with the emotional division this caused. But at the time he believed there was nothing wrong with the money he made being his money, not ours as a team. I don't know what your wife is thinking.

[Notwendy]

Maybe Waverider can add to this as he has written some great insights on how motivation is different. With my mother - who did no work as far as house and kids went or outside the home- basically had no responsibilities - she had no problem spending lavishly on herself and no sense of conscience about my father working hard to earn it. I on the other hand would feel terrible just spending money without contributing to the household. I worked really hard taking care of house and kids and am frugal. My H does work hard yet he didn't have any problem thinking that if he earned the money then it was his. Yes he was generous with the needs of the household but he acted as if he resented it- and brought it up in any disagreements. He was also ok with buying the kids what they needed but expressed resentment about giving me money for them because he said " I would get credit for it".

I saw us as a team. The kids all know where the money comes from no matter who buys things.  I appreciate his hard work but it isn't easy to have it rubbed in my face.

I don't feel he saw us as a team. In fact he sometimes expressed that if I got to have the allowance for personal things that he had, it would be unfair and I'd be taking advantage of him. Giving me money for the house and kids was enough in his mind. When I give something to someone - I feel a joy of giving. It seems that my H feels taken advantage of. I don't think I've taken advantage of anyone's money- but he seems to feel that way , even if he rationally knows I don't take advantage of it.

[HurtinNW]

HurtinNW, what do you see as other options?  I really do want to make sure no stone unturned.

What I believe is my only workable option in the short term is for me to sleep in my bedroom with all the gizmos and gadgets I am used to.

FF

I appreciate you asking me! Honestly, I can't think of any legal way to get what you want here. As they say in my business, there is no law against being an ass. Her behavior definitely sounds abusive but it may not be criminal. The standard for getting the law involved is pretty high.

That said, I wonder if there is some creative solution. As I mentioned, I adopted my kids from foster care. Some of their birth parents are BPD. I wanted my kids to have contact with them, but healthy contact. So I called in a professional mediator. Professional mediators are different than counselors. Good ones are able to get to the heart of the issue and help both parties work out a solution. Once we had our agreement we wrote it in a contract. Do you think your wife might be open to involving an impartial mediator? Not a family member she can triangulate, but a professional mediator who won't give a fig for her narrative. Just someone there to work out a specific problem.

Another thing occurred to me: why are you the one leaving? If your wife wants to make noise, why can't she get the hotel room and party all night long?

I suppose my real question for you would be this: what if you can't change this situation? Can you radically accept this part of her, or is this your rock bottom?

[Sunfl0wer]

Maybe this doesn't matter but... .

Do you think it is possible that the first night she was loud, that she felt abandoned by you leaving for a hotel.  Therefore now to feel in control, she is intentionally pushing you towards a hotel to act like "FF doesn't leave me for a hotel... .instead... .I send HIM to a hotel!"

I wonder if this was originally a noise punishment (an original anger at you) that she accidentally escalated to you leaving... .but really got hurt about you leaving... .and now is pissed you left her. (A new reason to be mad)

So the more you want to leave for a hotel... .the more she may want to push you out to feel like you didn't leave her... .but she banished you.

[patientandclear]

If so, thoughts on how would that bear on FF's options?

[Sunfl0wer]

If so... .leaving for hotels could be the most antagonistic option.

[waverider]

Correct.  My Dad's involvement in house was... .or seemed to be appreciated by my wife.

Otherwise, no house.

My wife got her #1 pick of houses.    That pick was consistent for about a month before we did purchase offer.

No impulse here.  And I will say that my wife has been a good house picker for all our marriage.  They have all worked and generally played out as agreed.  Never before a huge departure from pre purchase "plan".  Never.

This puts her under 'obligation" and that is part of the perception of power, who owes who what. pwBPD rebel against perceived power. It brings out the martyr and victim trait. Hence the need to call in the rescuers.

[formflier]

 

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=289171.new#new

Mods,

Might be a good place to lock this one up.  Link to continuation is up above.

FF

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .