Trying to avoid the confusion

[vortex of confusion]

I spent the morning having a discussion with stbx. I walked away feeling good because I stood my ground. I didn't let him do his circular crap on me. I also walked away feeling really confused and angry.

Confused because he was talking out of both sides of his mouth. Angry because of his thoughtlessness when it comes to me. Part of it is anger at him. Part of it is anger at myself for allowing him to treat me that way for so long.

I have told him that we are done time and time again. His actions have said we are done time and time again. He was telling me that he didn't know if he wanted to try to save things between us or not. During the same conversation, he tells me about some chick that he is talking to and admits that he likes her and is chasing her. She is some girl that he knew 20-some years ago and had a huge crush on her. He looked her up several years ago when we were trying to save our marriage. He didn't understand why I might have a problem with him looking up somebody that he had been carrying a torch for in the past. He had to ask, "Why does it matter now if we are separated?" Um, it doesn't matter now. I don't like hearing about it, especially since he looked her up a couple of years ago under the guise of innocence and now he admits to liking her and chasing her. He has supposedly told her everything. She and I are the only ones that know the extent of what he has done. It makes me sick at my stomach to think that he is telling her super intimate details about our relationship. I don't even know why it bugs me as I have shared lots of details here and with close friends.

And he had to tell me that he went to some chicks office to get his rosary fixed. This is a chick from church that he was flirting with a couple of years ago. She invited just him over for dinner. When I confronted her about it, she backpedaled and said that she just forgot to include me and the kids and she was sorry about it. This is a woman that is married and has a husband in prison and has a questionable reputation. He thought it was perfectly fine to make it a point to tell me that he went and visited her at her office at work.

He is a sex addict and showed me his one year chip. He had to brag about being sober for a year. His idea of sobriety is not looking at porn and not taking care of himself. He doesn't see how him posting ads in various places would be a violation of his sobriety as we were supposed to be in an open relationship. He wanted to save things yet continue to chase other women and claim that he was sober. None of it made any sense to me. I will admit that I have been dating somebody for about 6 months now, which is why I don't get how he can be talking about saving the relationship. I also don't get how he can so easily tell me about his female friends. I don't bring up my boyfriend at all to him. I don't mention his name. I don't talk about anything. He will ask ME about my boyfriend and I usually tell him that I see no reason to tell him any details at all about my relationship. (The back story is that he seems to have a cuckold fetish and use to encourage me to see other men and then come home and tell him about it. If I didn't, his equipment didn't work. Even if I wasn't seeing anybody else, I still had to talk about other men to get him interested. It creeps me out to even hear my boyfriend's name pass across his lips.)

He had to talk about this lady that he knew back in college and tell me how often they talk, blah, blah, blah. I feel like a did a good job of shutting him down and making it a point to let him know that I don't want to hear about any of his friends.

I guess I am trying to process the interactions from this morning. I am not surprised by anything that he said or did. It was his pretty typical pattern of trying to interrupt me and overrun the conversation. It was his pretty typical pattern of dismissing me. At one point, I reminded him of all of the name calling and mean things that he said to me. His response was, "I don't remember saying those things. If you said I said them, then I must have." He has a habit of not remembering mean things that he has said or done. He has called me a b***h and then completely denied it. I feel like I am beating him over the head with the past. I feel like that is what I need to do to keep him from acting like everything is normal and perfect. I feel like that is what he wants. He wants to find a way to weasel his way back into our lives so he can continue to have me take care of him while he chases other women. Sorry, not going to happen. I am dating somebody else. How does any of that even work? One day he tells me that he was wrong about non-monogamy and then wants to save things while he is chasing somebody else and I am dating somebody else. I have no desire to ever have him as part of my life as anything other than a coparent. Maybe some day, we can be friends. That day is a long, long, long way off as I have a lot of healing to do.

I have to find a way to deal with him as we have 4 kids together. I couldn't decide if I wanted to post this on the personal inventory board or the coparenting board. Ultimately, I decided to post it here because the biggest thing I want is support in detaching without feeling like I am completely crazy for being bothered by him sharing certain information and for asking questions about my boyfriend. His continually bringing up things like saving the relationship has me feeling confused. I am worried that I have sent him a mixed signal. My gut says that farting in his direction can be interpreted by him as me still wanting him. Any amount of niceness on my part seems to be taken as some kind of a sign that everything is okay.

Thanks in advance for any kind of insight or support!

[Lonely_Astro]

Hey Vortex,

Sorry to hear about ALL the stuff your stbex has and is putting you through.  I can imagine it's pretty tough.  I may have missed it, but is your ex diagnosed?  I'm just wondering.

Remember that pwBPD don't really have boundaries, so what seems 'normal' to us isn't as cut and dry to them.  I mention that because of his seemingly lack of social norms (talking about women he's chasing, etc).  While it is hurtful to us, he doesn't for sure see any issue with it.  I experienced this with my ex after I found out she had been dating my replacement.  Her stance was that she "hadn't done anything wrong" by starting a romantic r/s with him, even though we weren't officially over - it was a gray period between us.  What I mean is that she had attempted a reconciliation and I had put a stop to it, I needed space.  She found a new partner (even though she had started it before we hit the gray zone) and saw no problem with that because we "were over" - even though we weren't.  I was strung along at arms length for a couple of months after the official end with the always illusive 'carrot/stick' routine. 

It's hard to see it right now, but it does get better without them.  Right now you're still wrapped in FOG. The other women he's touting in front of you can be deliberate as well to 'show you what you're missing' and to make you feel rejected (thus hurting your already battered and demolished self esteem).

Do you have a parenting plan in place?

Are you seeking counseling yourself for all that's going on?

Take care and keep posting!  It gets better

[vortex of confusion]

Sorry to hear about ALL the stuff your stbex has and is putting you through.  I can imagine it's pretty tough.  I may have missed it, but is your ex diagnosed?  I'm just wondering.

Nope, he hasn't been diagnosed. The only thing he will admit to being is a sex addict. I tried to encourage him to go to counseling at one point. He went to a hand full of sessions and then stopped. He told me that he didn't believe in therapy or counseling and that I was being too demanding because I suggested counseling. It got to where I couldn't ask or recommend anything no matter how small. I have been called a demanding b***h on several occasions. It worked to keep me from asking for anything at all.

Remember that pwBPD don't really have boundaries, so what seems 'normal' to us isn't as cut and dry to them.  I mention that because of his seemingly lack of social norms (talking about women he's chasing, etc).  While it is hurtful to us, he doesn't for sure see any issue with it.  I experienced this with my ex after I found out she had been dating my replacement.  Her stance was that she "hadn't done anything wrong" by starting a romantic r/s with him, even though we weren't officially over - it was a gray period between us.  What I mean is that she had attempted a reconciliation and I had put a stop to it, I needed space.  She found a new partner (even though she had started it before we hit the gray zone) and saw no problem with that because we "were over" - even though we weren't.  I was strung along at arms length for a couple of months after the official end with the always illusive 'carrot/stick' routine. 

Thanks for the reminder. I know this to be true on an intellectual level. His lack of understanding of what could be possibly be wrong with anything has baffled me for years. Even though I understand it and know that it is part of who he is, it still seems to hurt. How do I develop a thicker skin?

It's hard to see it right now, but it does get better without them.  Right now you're still wrapped in FOG. The other women he's touting in front of you can be deliberate as well to 'show you what you're missing' and to make you feel rejected (thus hurting your already battered and demolished self esteem).

I'd rather think of it as him being clueless and insensitive. If I thought that he was doing it to deliberately make me feel rejected, I would be hopping mad and I would be really tempted rub his nose in a few things. I do feel like I am slowly coming out of the fog. The longer he is out of the house, the better I feel and the more I am seeing how messed up things were. 

Do you have a parenting plan in place?

Nope, no official parenting plans. The plan is for me to take care of the kids and be their primary caretaker while he goes off and lives his life and does what he wants.

Are you seeking counseling yourself for all that's going on?

I don't have the funds to seek counseling. I spoke with a life coach that specialized in helping spouses of sex addicts. That blew up and I have been a bit hesitant to seek out free/reduced counselors since then. I have a good group of friends that have been really great at helping me navigate some of this stuff.

[HurtinNW]

I adopted my three kids while with my longterm ex of 15 years. He was not BPD, but definitely had his share of problems, including heavy drinking, flakiness and what I now realize was undiagnosed ADHD. The man could not be trusted to put on his own shoes   

Splitting up with him was super hard, because I knew I couldn't rely on him. I needed desperately to detach, and the contact felt just impossible. I also wanted to take the high road, and never badmouth him to the kids, which were mostly my responsibility anyhow.

Looking back the steps I made that helped were this: I decided what would work for me in terms of parenting time and help. I made clear boundaries about our interactions. I would have never listened to his sexual talk. I would have diverted, walked away, changed the subject. I closed the door in my own mind which made it easier to close the door in reality.

So... .control what you can control. You can't control his sexual acting out. You can control whether you have to hear it. All this crap about his affairs and treatment... .you don't have to hear it. Walk away, decide it is the most excellent time in the world to vacuum the floors, run outside to play on the front lawn with one of your kids, announce they are serving ice cream at Baskins Robbins and you must have a scoop this very minute... .there is no end to the ways you can shut him down. Heck, get on the phone with a girlfriend and talk about your yeast infection. That will shut most men up in a hurry.

You can't stop him from interpreting what he wants as signs of approval. A person with BPD will believe anything to suit their needs. What you can do is change your reality. Don't worry about what he thinks. Worry about what you need to coparent and make a healthy split. Decide what that is and move from there.

[Lonely_Astro]

Vortex,

I can understand your struggle.  My ex is diagnosed, so I had some idea of what I was dealing with.  She has Narc traits as well, making her exceedingly difficult to deal with.  I don't know your backstory, but that's what I meant about him touting the women to hurt you.  If he has N traits, he certainly is aware of what he's doing.  It could be a lack of boundaries, but it could also be intentional harm.  You've hurt him, so now he must hurt you.  Many pwBPD are vindictive and some are even sadistic.  Just like there are bad nons out there, there are bad BPDs too.  Whether or not he's purposely hurting you is something only you can decide.

How to get a thicker skin, you ask.  Well, that's tough (no pun intended).  My ex did a lot of crummy, inexcusable stuff to me.  She's a horrible person, BPD or not.  What helped me get over the hump was thinking more Zen like.  "What happened, happened."   I can't change it.  I can't alter it.  But what I can change is how I go forward with things. I work with my ex, so being full NC is impossible.  And to make things even better, we work with my replacement too.  So practically everyday I have to see/hear them.  They'll be strolling down the street on lunch, arm in arm, laughing and pecking each other.  I've had them walk by my office door talking openly about their sexcapade from the night before.  If he's not around, she'll talk with my neighbors boisterously about how they're going to get married and have "a bunch of little babies".  Is all that stuff hurtful?  Absolutely.  But, I made a choice to look at it from a different side: I am free of her abuse.  And I was abused.  Some of it I didn't know of, some of it I chose to let her do because she had broken my self esteem and I thought I deserved it.  I grew a thicker skin because I simply chose to.

What's important now is that you have a good support system during this difficult time.  My support system was mostly here, due to others not understanding what it's like to be wrapped in a r/s with a mentally disturbed person.  It's also important that you stay grounded.  It's easy to get lost in the FOG (and re-lost).  The abuse will end when YOU decide to end it.  There's nothing wrong with going NC (except for the kids).  He doesn't have a right to your personal life and you, frankly, don't want to hear about his.  There's nothing wrong with telling him that.  That's for you to decide.

Stay well

[vortex of confusion]

Splitting up with him was super hard, because I knew I couldn't rely on him. I needed desperately to detach, and the contact felt just impossible. I also wanted to take the high road, and never badmouth him to the kids, which were mostly my responsibility anyhow.

Contact with him definitely feels impossible at times. I don't badmouth him to the kids. The kids badmouth him to me and tell me that they don't want to see dad. The kids have been my primary responsibility for a whole lot of years.

Looking back the steps I made that helped were this: I decided what would work for me in terms of parenting time and help. I made clear boundaries about our interactions. I would have never listened to his sexual talk. I would have diverted, walked away, changed the subject. I closed the door in my own mind which made it easier to close the door in reality.

I am still trying to figure out what is going to work for me in terms of parenting and help. It is almost easier if he would stay away completely. I am in the middle of trying to navigate arrangements that work for everyone. He loves the kids and wants to see them. He wants an opportunity to try to repair his relationship with them. The kids have no desire to see him. When I asked them how often they would like to see dad, the response was "Once a month".

I didn't  sit and listen to his sexual talk. I kept having to shut him down. At one point, I got up and said, "I am not going to continue this conversation." I redirected the conversation several times. My boundaries have to be iron clad with him. He is relentless. And he does it in such a clueless and innocent way that I get blindsighted by it.

You can't stop him from interpreting what he wants as signs of approval. A person with BPD will believe anything to suit their needs. What you can do is change your reality. Don't worry about what he thinks. Worry about what you need to coparent and make a healthy split. Decide what that is and move from there.

I am still trying to decide what I need to coparent. To me, it looks like all I need is a little bit of financial assistance from him. Things are set up so that I have that for now. The kids prefer not to deal with him while at the same time wanting to know that he is okay. I was trying to steer yesterday's discussion(s) to the kids so we could work on the logistics on stuff. I get to make all of the decisions as he won't make a decision. When I ask him to give me input, he throws it back on me.

I don't give a rat's patooty what he thinks. I made the mistake of talking to him yesterday morning. I know it was my mistake. One of the things that being with him for 18 years has done is made me question my own reality.

[vortex of confusion]

What's important now is that you have a good support system during this difficult time.  My support system was mostly here, due to others not understanding what it's like to be wrapped in a r/s with a mentally disturbed person.  It's also important that you stay grounded.  It's easy to get lost in the FOG (and re-lost).  The abuse will end when YOU decide to end it.  There's nothing wrong with going NC (except for the kids).  He doesn't have a right to your personal life and you, frankly, don't want to hear about his.  There's nothing wrong with telling him that.  That's for you to decide.

I have told him that repeatedly. I don't think boundaries exist in his world. Most of the time, I don't talk to him and avoid him. The kids can talk to him online or via text/phone. I have had a few times when I have allowed myself to get sucked in for one reason or another. I don't get sucked in too hard and it doesn't take long for me to snap out of it. That is why I posted here. I need to maintain my grip on reality and hear, from multiple sources, that he is a jerk and that it is okay for me to tell him to buzz off.

I have told him that being around him makes me physically ill. My stomach gives me fits when he is around. When thinking about this stuff, I feel really stupid because I get in the moment and I freeze and don't know what to say/do. In the moment, I tend to let him blather on because I have been programmed to shut up and listen. The whole incident was my mistake for letting him hang around.

How can I solve these parenting issues without talking to him to some degree? It is overwhelming at times.

[WoundedBibi]

Telling him you don't want to hear him yap about his personal/sexual life or asking about yours is pointless, whether he is too wrapped up in himself to understand (BPD) or wants to hurt you (more NPD) doesn't matter. So avoiding talking to him as much as possible is best for you.

Now which parenting issues do you feel you need to discuss with him?

You wrote earlier in this thread you take all the decisions anyway and if you want his input he throws it back at you. So what if you just take all the decisions and not discuss anything with him? If you want input on a parenting issue perhaps you can ask a parent who's opinion you actually value? A good friend? A family member?

Then there would be no need to have these discussions and get sucked into personal stuff, you could tell him he's allowed to come over once a month to see the kids and spend time with them and while he does that you're outside doing yard work or upstairs vacuuming bedrooms or whatever. Somewhere nearby enough in case something comes up but far away enough not to get sucked in a conversation.

[vortex of confusion]

Now which parenting issues do you feel you need to discuss with him?

Mainly about when he is going to come hang out with the kids. I wanted to talk to him about some of the things that the kids have told me. It is stuff that directly involves him. When with him, the kids are great and he thinks that he is doing great with the kids. The kids give me a completely different story. I know it is pointless to talk to him about this stuff. I feel like I need to at least try so that if/when things go to court, it can be established that I did not try to prevent him from seeing the kids. I want to keep everything on my side of the street clean with regards to the kids.

You wrote earlier in this thread you take all the decisions anyway and if you want his input he throws it back at you. So what if you just take all the decisions and not discuss anything with him? If you want input on a parenting issue perhaps you can ask a parent who's opinion you actually value? A good friend? A family member?

I have done that for years. Even before he left, it was clear that if I wanted help navigating parenting stuff, I had to go to others. The stuff that needs discussed is the stuff that directly involves him. The kids have been wanting to take a trip to see his mom. That needed to be brought up. I don't want to unilaterally tell him and his mom to buzz off and stay away from me and the kids.

Then there would be no need to have these discussions and get sucked into personal stuff, you could tell him he's allowed to come over once a month to see the kids and spend time with them and while he does that you're outside doing yard work or upstairs vacuuming bedrooms or whatever. Somewhere nearby enough in case something comes up but far away enough not to get sucked in a conversation.

Until ALL of our assets and business matters are completely separate, there will be a need to talk to him. We have 18 years of history and 4 kids together. There will be stuff to discuss whether I like it or not. I can't just bury my head in the sand and pretend that the last 18 years didn't exist and that we don't own a houses, cars, and other stuff together. Even if he is not capable of some things, I do feel like I have an ethical/legal obligation to at least try to get his input. I know that his mother and other friends have encouraged him to try to nail me to the wall. I don't think it will work. I do have the upper hand. Part of keeping the upper hand is to make sure that I make reasonable efforts to involve him in the parenting of our 4 kids. If he screws it up, that is on him, not me. Him and his mom have both made a big deal about me taking the kids and never letting them see them again.

[WoundedBibi]

So the main concerns now are the time he spends with the kids and the trip the kids want to take to see his mum?

As I understand there are no fixed agreements on when or how often he sees the kids plus he thinks things are great between him and the kids and the kids don't think they are.

The kids want to see him once a month, he wants to drop in whenever. Correct?

Would it help you to prevent getting sucked in but also to prevent being accused of stopping him from seeing them, if you put your concerns in an email? That it is better for children to have contact that is regular so on clear dates and that the children feel ... .(whatever they feel) and therefore it is better for them to make the contact more structured. Perhaps backed up by same family counseling if you can find a (free) counselor to talk to the kids?

Or when you do prefer to talk to him to give him less choices. "The kids want to take a trip to visit your mother. I want to go next month. I have spoken to your mother". So you're the one in control but they cannot accuse you of his family not being able to see them. I can imagine you might not want your children to go with your almost ex without you there but would prefer to go without him there if possible.

[vortex of confusion]

So the main concerns now are the time he spends with the kids and the trip the kids want to take to see his mum?

There are still joint bills and assets that need to be dealt with pretty regularly. He is staying with a friend right now and doesn't have permanent housing.

The kids want to see him once a month, he wants to drop in whenever. Correct?

That is not correct. He wants me to figure out what works best for me and the kids. We had a regular day where he came to visit them once a week.

Would it help you to prevent getting sucked in but also to prevent being accused of stopping him from seeing them, if you put your concerns in an email?

There are some topics that I won't discuss anywhere but in email or text. He has only been out of the house since the beginning of March. This is a work in progress for me.

That it is better for children to have contact that is regular so on clear dates and that the children feel ... .(whatever they feel) and therefore it is better for them to make the contact more structured.

What has worked best is for me to find excuses for him to come over and see the kids. When he came over and helped the kids set up our pool, the kids were happy to see him and enjoyed his company. When he has come over to fix little stuff or bring the kids stuff from the store, the kids were fine with seeing him. I think it is a good idea to discuss this stuff with him and find out what his schedule looks like so that I can take that into consideration.

So you're the one in control but they cannot accuse you of his family not being able to see them. I can imagine you might not want your children to go with your almost ex without you there but would prefer to go without him there if possible.

I really don't care what they accuse me of because they are going to talk crap no matter what I do. Since going no contact is not an option, I am trying to figure out how to continue to detach without getting sucked into his confusion and get a thicker skin. He is going to be this way for the rest of his life. He is going to continue to say and do things that bug me. I don't expect him to change. I have to find a way to NOT let this stuff bug me. This stuff is going to happen again. Even if I have boundaries and limit contact, it is still going to happen. He is still going to say and do stuff that is not cool. Even though I was really rattled by some of the topics that came up, I am still proud of myself for standing my ground and putting a stop to certain things.

I want to process it and figure out what I can do better next time. There will be a next time. To think otherwise is magical thinking. At this point, I find absolutely everything about him completely annoying. I get physically ill in his presence at times. I have to get over that because we have 4 kids together.

[Grey Kitty]

The stuff that needs discussed is the stuff that directly involves him. The kids have been wanting to take a trip to see his mom. That needed to be brought up. I don't want to unilaterally tell him and his mom to buzz off and stay away from me and the kids.

":)iscussions" with him don't seem to go well. I'm thinking that especially they don't go well if you ask open-ended questions. See if you can frame things as either statements, yes/no questions or multiple choice questions, so that there isn't any real "discussion" at all.

Open: "What do you think about taking the kids to visit your mom?"

Some alternative questions, as this doesn't sound like a good one to do with a statement... .

":)o you want to take the kids to your mom's for a long weekend in May?"

"The weekend of May 15th would be a good time to take the kids to see your mom. Confirm with her if that works or not."

A couple things to note about this kind of solution... .

If you choose how you ask the question, you have a lot of influence over what answer you get. Do be careful on how you use this influence... .

That said, he always has the option of rejecting how the question was asked and proposing something completely different... .so your use of this influence isn't unreasonable.


... .and in this specific case, his mother is involved. Perhaps it is easier to negotiate this with her than with him as the primary contact for you?

[vortex of confusion]

":)iscussions" with him don't seem to go well. I'm thinking that especially they don't go well if you ask open-ended questions. See if you can frame things as either statements, yes/no questions or multiple choice questions, so that there isn't any real "discussion" at all.

Thanks for the reminder!

Even yes/no questions seem to turn into "discussions". I don't know how many times I have said, "It was a yes or no question. I don't need to hear all of that other stuff."

[Grey Kitty]

The format of "Confirm that this is OK with you." is a bit more pushy... .and it doesn't invite a discussion of WHY.

Maybe it will work better for you.

As you've observed, he has free will, and can choose to respond however he wants to anyway!

[vortex of confusion]

The format of "Confirm that this is OK with you." is a bit more pushy... .and it doesn't invite a discussion of WHY.

Maybe it will work better for you.

As you've observed, he has free will, and can choose to respond however he wants to anyway!

This gives me a good laugh. I can have him confirm something and he will confirm it. That is when the fun begins. For example, I told him he could be with the kids from 6 PM one day until 6 AM the next. He asked several times, "Are you going to be back by 7?" Um, yeah, I will be back before 6, which is why I gave you that time.

I sometimes wonder why I bother to say anything at all. I often times wonder if I am being unclear or what. It definitely adds to the confusion. I really do need to become a little more confident in myself at times.