Worried Grandmother with untreated BPD daughter

[Worriedgma]

I'm the grandmother of 2 boys being raised by my currently untreated BPD daughter. The boys are 11 & 7. I am posting to ask those of you who have successfully lived through the experience of being raised by a borderline Mother for your insight. My daughter is 28 and was diagnosed BPD at age 14 with the only treatment received by her thru age 18 when she left my home. As an adult Mother, she is in complete denial of her diagnosis and using various methods of self-medicating as her only treatment, including substance abuse which has greatly exasperated all of her BPD symptoms.  This has resulted in much more frequent out-of-control & violent rages both with her husband (neither child's father), the kids, and other extended family members.  

As my eldest grandson is becoming older and beginning to question & challenge some of her emotionally abusive ways & lies, he is quickly becoming the main target of much of her emotional abuse. Myself and many other family members have witnessed this first-hand and confronted her. Her response is always a vicious, vindictive rage directed at us resulting in our then being cut off from any communication with the children for periods ranging from 1-8 weeks. She locks away the iPad's we have purchased for them to contact us with and unplugs the home telephone. Since the older child has no father in his life and the younger child sees his father regularly, we are able to maintain communication with the younger child only during these times. When she decides that enough time has passed, she will call us acting as though nothing ever happened and again allow us to see & communicate with the kids provided we do not ever address the issue.

Her current husband (& former convicted drug felon) does nothing to protect these children as we believe he is relieved that the rage is directed at someone other than himself. After numerous and increasing frequencies of this & reported incidents of emotional & domestic abuse including, police reports, CPS investigations, apartment evictions, extreme cursing, name-calling, humiliation, unfair punishments, lies etc., we are again in the position of having no way of contacting my older grandson directly as she has cut off all access to him. The system has failed to recognize emotional abuse and my grandsons are left to fend for themselves in an ever more chaotic and abusive home environment. The only line of communication we currently have with the older child is via email correspondence with his teacher, who does report that he is "currently socially & academically stable."  Because, he has no father in his life and has been cut off from communicating with all extended family members, we are so so worried about him.

I'm hoping that some of you who have lived through this type of trauma can lend some insight & ideas regarding our course of action and my grandsons ability to survive this horrible environment.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lbjnltx]

Hello Worriedgma,

Welcome to the Parenting board, we are glad to have you here!

I wasn't raised by a BPD parent nor am I a grandparent so my perspective is limited to the situation and what other grandparents have shared here.

There is little or nothing you can do about the relationship between your grandkids and their mom.  What you can do is help your grandsons via your relationship with them.  Listening to them, being there for them, showing them unconditional love and validating their feelings is what you can do.  Being a stabilizing person in their lives is so important as they grow up.

As you have discovered, confronting their mom/your daughter, about her behaviors results in being distanced from your grandchildren.  It is difficult to say nothing in the face of emotional/mental abuse and it is also not helping.  For the sake of the grandchildren, can you change the focus to getting along with your daughter and to remain in consistent contact with your grandsons?

My heart hurts for you and your family. 

lbjnltx

[qcarolr]

Hi Worriedgma   

My heart is with you. My situation is different yet similar. All the raging and emotional abuse is so hard to take, especially with our grandkids. You are a much greater influence in your grandsons lives than you can ever know. The fact that school is a safe, stable place for them is awesome a well. This is important for the young ones, but even more for our middle schoolers.

I agree with lbjnltx that finding a path to staying connected with your D is the most important thing right now. Try to remember this is primarily for the boys. It makes it easier to accept what feels like "giving in" at first. Hopefully things will move, slowly, in a more positive direction and you will reap the benefits of this for yourself. BPD especially with substance abuse is really tricky and unpredictable. It is good that your D returns to contact with you, even though 1-8 weeks feels like a long time. Others here have experienced years of no contact with their gkids.

How far away are you? Do you have chances to get together and do things with the boys?

My suggestion is to check into the book "Loving Someone with BPD". You can find this under "foundation reading" link to the right. There are also some great tools in the sidebar. If you are interested start at the top of the list and work you way through. This was the beginning of the process for me to reconnect with my DD30 from a place of love instead of fear and resentment. I also had to be clear with myself and with her where the boundaries are. It is a bumpy balance.

Keep coming back to let us know more of your story. I am here to listen, understand and care.

qcr Carol

ps. My BPDDD30 currently lives with dh and I. She has a boyfriend here also - she is more calm overall with a friend here. Our gd10 has always lived in our home. DD has been in/out depending on her substance abuse raging. Sadly the system does not promote her healthy interaction in the world - physically, emotionally, spiritually. I had a lot of work to do with my own health - physical, emotion, spiritual - before I could sincerely find ways to validate and love my DD. This has all impacted gd10 mightily. She has been in counseling since she was 5 and I first kicked DD out of the house into homelessness. I could think of no other way. If I could go back, with the tools and skills and values/belief system I have now, there would have been alternatives (maybe). All the TOOLS listed set me on the path to keeping my love for her in my consciousness all the time. It has been a long journey yet worth it. Things are better. Gd is able to talk about her feelings and thoughts, she is able to assert her own boundaries (not an option in your gdsons lives  ) with my support. Dh is getting on board with the trauma-based approach to life -- also a slow process. It is always possible to learn new ways to experience the trauma in our lives so it does not take over control. My DD has benefited from this process indirectly as I treat her in new ways.  Gd loves to be at school, though she is anxious about going to middle school next year. It is a great school with lots of supports for all the kids. As I see her assert herself with friends and with me I feel less worry. Our private eye-roll is a quiet way to express that she gets it and is going to be resilient so her mom's actions don't stick to her.

A final note: DD has some other limitations that create a dependence on someone in her daily life. Me, boyfriend, wishfully a charity/public service case-worker (she refuses to get any treatment or work with any program - total lack of trust). This makes staying connected easier in some ways as DD knows she needs me in her life. I working to push her gently to greater independence and she is working at it also. She can take care of herself (ie. survive) on the street. Drug abuse is always present there for her. She has been clean (except our legal mj) for about 10 months. I pray daily for her and her friends to support each other in this. I can see this as better anger management and self-reflection (awareness of her impact on others). I have never lost hope, and thank God for my resilience in faith.

[Worriedgma]

Thanks for taking the time to reply' I appreciate it. It's not the "giving in" that I struggle with, it's more of a feeling that my choice is rewarding bad abusive behavior or ignoring it at the expense of both my grandchildren and myself. I haven't found a way to be ok with either of those. I have read every book & article I can get my hands on and have practiced the communication tools, validating statements, etc and do always find a way past my anger and back to love for my daughter, but her refusal to get treatment and choice to self medicate with substance abuse is depleting my empathy.

[qcarolr]

Hi Worriedgma

It's not the "giving in" that I struggle with, it's more of a feeling that my choice is rewarding bad abusive behavior or ignoring it at the expense of both my grandchildren and myself. I haven't found a way to be ok with either of those.

Can you share an example of a choice that felt rewarding abusiveness and one where you ignored this behavior? There have been times for me as well. Maybe we can compare experiences.

qcr Carol

[Eyeamme]

I have the exact same problem with rewarding bad behavior.  I ignored it for 30 years. Good questions qcaroir.

[bpdsenior]

I feel for your situation and likely take a bit different approach.  Most of the responses have been from women.  Confronting Bpd patients regarding things that all other persons deserve confrontation about is extRemely hard, if not impossible.  On The other hand coddling the wrongdoer (disregarding The source or cause of it) will not instill the proper values in your grandsons.  It may grant access short term but contribute to their value confusion.  

My own experience says that "going easy" on The Bpd person is a short lived and dangerous place.  Yes it may buy short term peace perhaps, but eventually that backfires badly.  Stick to your values.  You are not the reckless and dangErous one.  Let the family know where you stand, and that may mean choosing no contact over bad ones.  Buying access and exhibiting values that you despise are poor choices, even though it may please someone.  Your Bpd daughter will use any means to manipulate you, and you must be cautious about where to allow it.  All of us fall victim to it, but we must carefully choose our places.

DonT ever forget you are the best and most stable person in the lives of your family.  :)on't give in to values you don't agree with.  It won't pay off long term, and I hope you are alive and well when your grandkids graduate.  Then you can be there with or without your daughter.

Tough love... .sometimes best, sometimes not.  Regardless Right is always right. Your daughter may never understand that and you can try, but maybe your grandsons have,a chance. Lastly as a dad, who WAS the responsible parent, where's the 2 dads for their sons.  Don't give them a free pass. You are at least 4th in line as I count.

[qcarolr]

BPDsenior - thanks for your dad perspective. It takes a very strong, secure individual to endure this process. Your family was very lucky to have you as the dad. How did you come to this place of strength and commitment in your life?

Since the older child has no father in his life and the younger child sees his father regularly, we are able to maintain communication with the younger child only during these times.

Her current husband (& former convicted drug felon) does nothing to protect these children as we believe he is relieved that the rage is directed at someone other than himself.

Sometimes there is a dad, sometimes not. My gd10's dad has mostly been in prison throughout her life. Her mom has mostly lived homeless with friends doing drugs or in jail for domestic violence incidents. We practiced lots of tough love. What has made our lives better?

Building a strong support network - family, friends, counselors, faith community... .

Through the tools here and counseling I figured out what my core values are.

Figured out how to protect my values with boundaries personal for me, not to change anyone else.

Learning how to validate what was valid for my DD including listening better (to find those valid things).

Expressing my love for her whenever possible.

There have been a lot of do-overs and many deep hurts. I did my best to follow the process laid out above for the past 4 years. Life in my family has improved this past year. DD and the friends she is with now are all staying clean and sober for about 10 months. She is rebuilding her relationship with gd10. She is working hard to keep on this new path. We still have some tough days, but recover more quickly.

It is a life-long process and I pray for the strength and courage to keep on track.

qcr Carol

[bpdsenior]

 to qcr Carol

Believe me when I use the word senior in my name!  I was not so strong when married to the BPD spouse.  That ended 25 years ago, and she survived only 13 more years.  I was custodial dad for our 2 small children, an extreme rarity in those days.

Regrettably our children seem to show BPD signs. As I observe, it is hard to "see" during teen years, and tends to develop in the 20's, reaching full bloom in the 30's.  Somewhere in the 40's it may tend to subside (although I was distanced at that point depending on the kids sanitized versions). I'm not sure what happens in the 50s as she didn't make it that far.

Playing the "nice guy" became a long term method of manipulation that was confusing to our children.  The psycho talk of that day was not to destroy the mother, protect the children as if all was okay, all denying the actual facts.  I will say this; making dads and males deadbeats is easier for women to do and for stereotypical norms to prevail.  But since most BPD patients are female, that means most partners are male; and it is not acceptable for men to "badmouth" women and mothers... .even when deserved.  Even today.  Certainly not in public, recognizing a certain NYC billionaire might break that mold.    The rest of us behave.

As a result my children became confused, subjected to the same manipulation I had experienced as an adult.  In our case the mother seemed functional to a mere acquaintance and was able to manipulate others quite well.  Now the children show signs of the disease, one d and one s.  I am the  bad one if you listen to them.  Thanks for the compliments, but they are undeserved.  I was speaking from experiences that didn't work. Both kids have turned against me and I cannot see my grandchildren either. It's nuts, but we have to constantly remember who it is that is or was nuts and stick to our values.  OH how hard that is, as we so want to give in to make peace (that is always short lived and/or meaningless in the long term). 

My speech was spoken from failure, not success.

[Glenna]

To gma and BPDsenior,

I have tremendous sympathy for you both. Living for years with one of these BPD's is real hell. I too am the mother of a BPDd and grandmother of two boys. they are 10 and 12. The 3 have lived with me on and off - are here now. My d has left her husband.

My apartment is so insane looking, there is such diabolical disorder, such ugly demented messes from one end to the other. And yet she says she is 'always cleaning.' I have been a neat person since childhood and even my room is an ugly mess. The boys have never had drawers of their own with sox and underwear ready for them. I have created them many times but she always stuffs other things in the drawers (papers, cosmetics, keys, souvenirs, her underwear, a sweater, a pair of jeans, books, etc etc), and doesn't put the washed things away. Every day they have to ask her for clothes to put on. She is an expert at making them attached to her and dependent on her. She slanders and demonizes everyone else in their life so that they have only her. Since I am actually fairly ok and love them, she's not having great success turning them against me, but my gd is she trying!

She routinely carries out hideous raging performances, which can last for hours. Her theme is always how horrrrrible I am and she says things that are really sick. She tells me I am 'on my way out,' that I'm old. She told them tonight that I beat her all the time when she was a child. I probably gave her a mild slap 4 times in her entire childhood and only when she was being horrific. I treated her like a princess, which was possibly one of the mistakes I made. The boys now hate these scenes but this means nothing to her. She always manages to twist the narrative and has me being the historical villain who started the 'fight.' She has destroyed all the drawings she made as a child that I had kept, some favorites just the other day. Tonight both boys, after asking her to stop screaming, tore up things of theirs. No surprise to anyone sane, but she was shocked. She yelled loudly that when she did it there was good reason, but there was no reason for them to do it!

she comes up with new things to say about me all the time. This week it's that everyone around me turns into a raging person and I am the cause of it. She doesn't mention that I have two brothers and longtime friends and there's never a problem. But now I have this new horrible villainy. Everyone who has anything to do with me is forced into rage.

Just now she came in to my room and began with a new meme. She is saying that I was r****d or violated in some way in my childhood and that is why I am so sick.

This is a nightmare of a life. Nothing positive can be maintained. She wastes hours, days, with her rants and ravings. When she's not in a 'bad' mood, she talks incessantly, which is very exhausting. The kids are always just sitting somewhere. on video games when they can be. They don't read books. I frequently suggest reading aloud but it just never happens. Of course it takes time to recover from the rage scenes.

One thing I can say positive is that I don't take her insults and slander to heart the way I used to do. I used to cry myself sick.

One bad thing though is the way I descend into unhealthy habits. I haven't  been doing my regular exercise and I am not eating as healthily as I do when she's not around. Combined with stress, this is not good. But I go into a kind of frozen mind state.

Although I am heartbroken for my grandsons, I have come to hope that they will not nec be scarred for life by this. I know many people who had unwell parents and turned out pretty sane. I have pointed out to them that her behavior is not normal, that she is sick, and that they shouldn't mimic it. I say that she does not want to be like this, but that she needs help to get better. I am always going to identify abuse.

Glenna

[Bpd mother]

O Glenna this has deeply shocked me you are indeed leading a nightmare of a life . I can relate to the distorted memories your daughter has as I think my daughter also has these. It must be painful for them if they truly believe it to be true.

Is she on any medication or therapy .

I pray you will have the strength to cope

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Glenna]

Thank you Bpd mother.

She is on lexapro. She considers that she only has depression and anxiety, which she does have of course. I have been trying to get her/us some kind of therapy for weeks. Numerous phone calls have led to nothing so far. The local hospital has BPD therapy but they are so overwhelmed they ask that one not even leave a message. Same with a hosp further away with the same program.

I am sure she has terrible inner pain. The tragedy of it is more than I can stand. She is a charming brilliant girl who changes into a psycho. I just read that some BPD's have psychotic episodes. I guess that explains what happens here.

Unfortunately, she has no inclination to seek help on her own. She says she will go to fam therapy to tell them how horrible I am. How I have ruined her life. This is fine with me.  I hope I can find something.

The memory distortion has gotten worse over the years. I think the hideous person that she is trying to make me into is the person she perceives herself to be. It's a monstrous concoction in her mind.

Glenna

[qcarolr]

She is on lexapro. She considers that she only has depression and anxiety, which she does have of course. I have been trying to get her/us some kind of therapy for weeks. Numerous phone calls have led to nothing so far. The local hospital has BPD therapy but they are so overwhelmed they ask that one not even leave a message. Same with a hosp further away with the same program.

I am sure she has terrible inner pain. The tragedy of it is more than I can stand. She is a charming brilliant girl who changes into a psycho. I just read that some BPD's have psychotic episodes. I guess that explains what happens here.

Unfortunately, she has no inclination to seek help on her own. She says she will go to fam therapy to tell them how horrible I am. How I have ruined her life. This is fine with me.  I hope I can find something.

It can feel unbearable when our BPD kids are suffering so much. My DD30 refuses to do any treatment, including the meds. for her panic disorder or depression. With the coming of spring she has flipped into a more manic place with what appears to be psychotic behaviors. I think she has also relapsed with her substance abuse the past few weeks. Does your D have any history of substance abuse? This can make things so much more out of control.

The memory distortion has gotten worse over the years. I think the hideous person that she is trying to make me into is the person she perceives herself to be. It's a monstrous concoction in her mind.

This is a description of projection and I think fits. I am the scape-goat for my DD right now as well. She cannot tolerate to hold the 'truth' within herself so finds a person to shift it to with blame and anger. Sometimes my attempts to love her get in the way. When I get into a self-protective place and take a stand it can turn to violence. I kind of withdraw and become non-reactive. Boy does that set her off! She can't get rid of her distress when I don't accept it. This really turns up the heat. Do you think some of this could be happening with your D? Is this time with you different than times in the past?

The other part my story shares with yours is my gd10. She will be 11 in June. This is all very different for her than in the past. She sees a bigger picture than in the past, or at least is able to talk about it more clearly. She is very protective of my dh and I. We have had legal custody of gd since she was a baby. DD and friends have been in/out of our home over the years. Things will go well for a few months, then fall apart - often with the coming of spring!

In the past I have tried valiantly to 'figure out' what is happening with DD. There is a new realization that only she has access to that information - and perhaps it is hidden in an unconscious place inside her as well. The best I can do is take good care of my own needs (so I don't unconsciously expect her or anyone else to have that responsibility); work with gd and our family T so gd learns tools and skills to cope with the chaos (school is also a good place for gd - predictable, safe, stable etc); keep open communication with dh since the strength of our marriage is an essential foundation for everything else in the family. When we allow ourselves to be split (by gd or DD) it is not good.

Keep loving your gs's. They need you in their lives. Get some support for yourself -- are you seeing a counselor? You are under attack. Take care of yourself.

qcr Carol