Losing patience, sigh...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Well, I've been here a while and I understand that my husband is not trying to be difficult, he just is, due to growing up with an extremely narcissistic and abusive father and an ineffectual mother who didn't/couldn't protect him.

Things are relatively peaceful and I have no big complaints. It's just the little insignificant things that pile up and send me to the verge of annoyance. Looking at it from the other side, I doubt if anyone would have much sympathy for my position. My life is good. My husband, though BPD, is a nice guy and quite tolerant of my idiosyncrasies, of which I have many, thanks to growing up with a BPD mom.

The lessons here have really helped; in addition, my individual therapy sessions have given me a frame of reference as to what I can reasonably expect from this relationship. That said, I'm getting tired of constantly adjusting my communication style to fit his particular sensitivities. I really want to be able to "just be me."

I seldom get into conflicts with him, but I'll give an example of something where I threw "the rules" to the wind and said exactly what was on my mind. We were watching TV coverage of pundits commenting on the Republican convention. (We're both political junkies. And fortunately have relatively the same political leanings.) He made a comment and I "Uh hummed" in agreement. Then he looked at me and pointedly said, "Hello!" in a way that in my opinion is rather rude.

I don't think he heard my verbalization because he then proceeded to tell me how hurtful it is to be ignored. This particularly pissed me off because I don't ignore him, ever, and because he's a low-talker, and often talks while I'm doing something like running water in the kitchen sink, stirring something sizzling on the stove, I can't hear him. When I ask him to repeat himself, he says things like, "Never mind," "It wasn't important," or he just flat out refuses. It's like he's testing me to see if I'm paying attention.

And when the shoe is on the other foot, I can speak paragraphs about something and he sometimes won't even acknowledge that I've said anything at all or that he even needs to respond to me or even look my direction. So the hypocrisy just got to me last night.

I confronted him, said that I never ignore him, that what he has to say is important to me, and how irritating it is when he won't repeat something that I didn't hear. Of course, he did the typical BPD thing of saying "I'm such a bad person." I said, "No, you're not a bad person, it's just terribly annoying when you accuse me of not paying attention to you on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, refuse to repeat yourself when I haven't heard you."

It was a bit ugly, but I have to give him credit for not dysregulating. And this morning he did repeat something I hadn't heard, so maybe he got the message.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, I've been here a while and I understand that my husband is not trying to be difficult, he just is, due to growing up with an extremely narcissistic and abusive father and an ineffectual mother who didn't/couldn't protect him.

Things are relatively peaceful and I have no big complaints. It's just the little insignificant things that pile up and send me to the verge of annoyance. Looking at it from the other side, I doubt if anyone would have much sympathy for my position. My life is good. My husband, though BPD, is a nice guy and quite tolerant of my idiosyncrasies, of which I have many, thanks to growing up with a BPD mom.

The lessons here have really helped; in addition, my individual therapy sessions have given me a frame of reference as to what I can reasonably expect from this relationship. That said, I'm getting tired of constantly adjusting my communication style to fit his particular sensitivities. I really want to be able to "just be me."

I seldom get into conflicts with him, but I'll give an example of something where I threw "the rules" to the wind and said exactly what was on my mind. We were watching TV coverage of pundits commenting on the Republican convention. (We're both political junkies. And fortunately have relatively the same political leanings.) He made a comment and I "Uh hummed" in agreement. Then he looked at me and pointedly said, "Hello!" in a way that in my opinion is rather rude.

I don't think he heard my verbalization because he then proceeded to tell me how hurtful it is to be ignored. This particularly pissed me off because I don't ignore him, ever, and because he's a low-talker, and often talks while I'm doing something like running water in the kitchen sink, stirring something sizzling on the stove, I can't hear him. When I ask him to repeat himself, he says things like, "Never mind," "It wasn't important," or he just flat out refuses. It's like he's testing me to see if I'm paying attention.

And when the shoe is on the other foot, I can speak paragraphs about something and he sometimes won't even acknowledge that I've said anything at all or that he even needs to respond to me or even look my direction. So the hypocrisy just got to me last night.

I confronted him, said that I never ignore him, that what he has to say is important to me, and how irritating it is when he won't repeat something that I didn't hear. Of course, he did the typical BPD thing of saying "I'm such a bad person." I said, "No, you're not a bad person, it's just terribly annoying when you accuse me of not paying attention to you on the one hand, and then, on the other hand, refuse to repeat yourself when I haven't heard you."

It was a bit ugly, but I have to give him credit for not dysregulating. And this morning he did repeat something I hadn't heard, so maybe he got the message.

[Waddams]

I think it's not only okay, but actually necessary, to call out a pwPD partner like you did.  It's okay to blunt and harsh when they're being jerks as long as we're not retaliating/escalating things.  It helps set strong boundaries to let express anger in a healthy manner.  It also helps to get it out and not let things simmer inside. 

[formflier]

I think he got the message.

 

FF

[Notwendy]

Cat, I can identify with this "That said, I'm getting tired of constantly adjusting my communication style to fit his particular sensitivities. I really want to be able to "just be me." "

But if it gives you any hope, I have come to the point where I am more "me". It was when the reaction to being me didn't bother me, and I didn't react to that.

It was when I began to be able to not be afraid of the response as I had been raised to. I think we have to use our own judgement with this. The consequences of upsetting BPD mom as a kid were high for me. Mom could go on raging rampage. Dad would punish us.

But my H, like yours, is more of a shadow of what we feared as children- just enough to elicit a reaction from us. But we can change our reaction.

I also think we need to use careful judgement about this. If upsetting someone puts us in danger, then we had better think carefully about that. However, in your case, and mine as well, it can elicit a snarky comment, which is irritating- but if it is something we fear- then that is something to work at.

A while back, some nasty person yelled at me over something trivial. But instead of thinking - that nasty woman has a problem, I felt like I was in an emotional fog. It took me a good while to get back to feeling myself again. Someone else may have just walked away thinking she's crazy and gone on with their day. I realized that it was my reaction to her that made this significant. I can work on that.

It's about boundaries but also radical acceptance. Boundaries are about not allowing yourself to be mistreated, but also discerning what bothers us or not. Radical acceptance is letting our partners be who they are.

I have the same issue with my H. If I ask him to repeat something I didn't hear, it's "I am not paying attention to him" if he asks me to repeat something, I think "he didn't hear me". But we each think what we are going to think - we can't change that. We also handle anger differently. He may say something snarky, and I might just sulk.

Sometimes I do call him out on something if it is important to me. But more often, I let the snarky comments go. Sometimes I don't even remember them. Sometimes, he even apologizes for them. But I think if you asked your H, he may also say he can't be "himself" around you. My H said that to me. And the more I can be "me" with him and not react to him being "him" with me, the easier it has been for both of us.

Like I said before- one has to use judgement. BPD is a spectrum. Every person and relationship is different.

[formflier]

I've also noticed that I am more able to hear a ridiculous comment, not react and then move along and actually forget it.

I've changed my habit a bit so that if a comment is something that I want to do better on, I will make a note of it in google docs so that I can remember it for my weekly Psychologist appointment.  There we role play it.  I get to practice a better delivery, and more importantly... .focus on why those words and that delivery is better so that in the future I can pull from that when I need to apply nuance to something... .usually something that is coming out of left field.

As far as me being me... .I used to try to do better prep work so that she would "hear" a message.  Now I kinda check to see if things are calm... .and then I just say it directly.

"I'm not happy with how kids are doing this.  Can we work on this together to change what they do?"

If it is about her, I'm still a bit more circumspect.  However, once I have said something to her about her behavior or an issue around her.  I focus on not taking bait for rabbit trails... . Stick with the issue... .unapologetically.

I think the big takeaway from this thread is how there is a dynamic at work.  Many times it is the "reactions to reactions" that get things headed out of control.

FF

[jrharvey]

And when the shoe is on the other foot, I can speak paragraphs about something and he sometimes won't even acknowledge that I've said anything at all or that he even needs to respond to me or even look my direction. So the hypocrisy just got to me last night.

WOW this is so what I deal with every day. The hypocrisy is enough to make anyone mad. My GF expects 100% full attention and even in a crowded area and if she speaks softly it pisses her off if I don't hear every word yet I can talk for 15 minutes and she purposely ignores as if she is testing me or something. I call her out on EVERYTHING now. She threw a tantrum that I didn't look excited enough to see her one day and now I call her out every time she looks tired, annoyed or any face other than happiness. She hates it and gets soo pissed about that and sometimes gives me the silent treatment for hours just mentioning it. I don't really care anymore. She is getting to understand how it feels.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks everyone for all the great comments: very helpful and thought-provoking. I think my recent lack of patience stems from being out of balance.

When I first got together with my current husband, I treated him like a "non" and if I had a gripe, I didn't hesitate to bring it up, state what I wanted differently and ask for his feedback and (hopefully) his agreement. To my surprise, things began going really sideways and he would say that he was a "terrible person" or that I hated him. I just wanted him to wipe off the #%%&*!& kitchen counter where he had left sticky jam spilled--next thing I knew, he thought I wanted to "get rid of" him.

He was so much more functional than husband #1, it took a long time for me to realize that he had a personality disorder. So I kept approaching the inevitable disagreements that all couples have head on, as it's my style to be direct. In doing so, I built up more and more resentment on my part, and more and more hurt feelings on his side.

Landing here, I realized that my communication style had to change, so I endeavored to validate, which was like a foreign language for me since I didn't experience that behavior in my family of origin. I tried to take responsibility for my feelings and eliminate any language that could be construed as blaming or shaming, which, considering how ultra sensitive my husband is, even disagreeing about liking a restaurant could fall into that category.

In the process of doing this, I've slowed down much of what I communicate and I ask myself if it's really worth saying. Often it's not. So there's a lot that goes unsaid, simply because I know that it's likely to start an argument and that's really not what I want to do. But it's frustrating, nevertheless, knowing that I don't have a partner who is open to free and easy communication. He is hyper-vigilant, looking to take offense or find blame or feel excluded, so trying to keep from doing that is nearly impossible.

At present, I feel like I've built up a "bank account" of good feelings for the most part and my little "slip-ups" are more easily swept under the rug by him now. Yet for me, I feel an acute awareness of him not ever really knowing and understanding me for who I am. And that feels really alienating.

I feel like I have to hold myself to such a high standard, while he's free to be an a*hole and that really irks me. So thanks for letting me know it's OK to call him out on unpleasant behavior at times. I want to do this judiciously. I know that if I don't let out the frustration at times, it will come out in an ill-conceived manner and I'll say something I regret. I realize that what I fear is hurting other people's feelings. And if I stuff my own, I can easily do that.

So knowing that's a trigger for me, I'll be more aware when he says something such as: ":)o you even like me anymore?" Comments such as that both hurt my feelings and make me mad. 

[formflier]

Cat Familiar,

When odd comments come out like "you don't like me any more", the general advice of my Psychologist is to nonchalantly and perhaps a bit dismissively very quickly state your feelings.

"Oh Bob... .of course I like you... ."

Then... .state the very high value that you place on knowing what is going on with "their feelings"... .and stay there.

Couple things are communicated.  

1.  You won't spend much bandwidth on what he thinks you think.
2.  You clearly state his value to you.
3.  You put the focus back on his feelings... .that is he trying to project.

Now there is a conundrum... .that he (absolutely not you) have to solve.

1.  Either he gets into his feelings and you validate, listen and empathize (no fixing allowed)

or

2.  He drops saying those ridiculous things.

When he wants to get back to your feelings about him... .a simple "No... .I'm not going do discuss that any more... .but something about this seems really important to you, I want to understand what that is... "

Get the picture?

Back to the advice... .try to work on your voice... .something that combines dismissive and preposterous... .with a bit of nonchalant.  "of course I love you... ."  then right back to their feelings that they are trying to "hand off" to you.

FF

I suppose there is a third option to the conundrum.  He dysregulates or gets weird.  Stay nonchalant and let him know you are interested when he wants to share.  Leave him to his feelings.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks, FF. Great advice! Yes, I was giving too much importance to refuting his "crazy" allegations because they struck a nerve in me. (How on earth could he possibly feel I don't care about him when I put up with all his nonsense?   )

I like this strategy--be dismissive, reassure, ask about underlying feelings.

I'll think of my late Southern Grandma and try to use her voice--sort of a "bless your heart" kind of response.

Big thanks, FF!   

[formflier]

The nuance... .which I am still practicing is that you are dismissing the idea... .the notion but then quickly pivoting to affirm the person.

There is really no place for "I'm shocked you said that... "

No idea how to do the mental organization to pull this all off.  I've done a little bit of it but it was not in the face of a full on "you don't love me" thing."

Yes... .there is a touch of "bless your heart"... .but all true southerners know that is a nice was of saying "piss off... "  That is really more of a statement about the person than an idea.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think the drama triangle is helpful to me to not take these kinds of comments personally. Once I started not being as reactive ( taking them personally- was being on the drama triangle too!) and looking at this tendency ( in both of us)- I saw it as a learned pattern- not a personal thing.

This was tough to get a handle on, as the drama triangle is a major pattern in my FOO and so it was also a familiar pattern in my H's FOO- otherwise both of us would not be doing it.

My own observation, from listening to my mother ( and not reacting) is that when they make comments like this " you aren't listening to me" "you don't like me"- they are in victim mode- something "unfair" is being done to them. There's an emotional payoff to victim position- they are not responsible- something is being done to them.

The result of being in victim mode is to "lash out" a- a self rescuer act ( one can play all parts of the triangle with oneself). Then- we the recipient of the comment, or " YOU don't love me" feel like we are the victim, or the cause of their feeling bad- and then we either react back as angry (persecutor) to them, or try to make them feel better ( rescuer)

and around and around we go.

Once I stepped back and listened, I realized it wasn't me that was the cause of their feeling bad " you don't listen, you don't like me" - it was how they chose to interpret a number of possible reasons. At this point, some incidences just sounded absurd. Once I wanted to leave a family event because of an impending storm and even family members urged us to do so. That became " you are so rude to my family" and then " I know you don't like my family". My typical response would have been to feel responsible, explain, try to show I was not rude- all that being JADE and then we'd have these circular arguments.

But this time, my thoughts were- well that isn't true, and I know it isn't true, and didn't pick up the argument.

Sometimes I think these comments are a form of getting us to react and on to the triangle- not intentionally, but that the triangle is familiar, emotional, and all are paying attention- a way of relating. But I didn't want to be doing that, so I had to find a different way.

FF makes a good suggestion- a brief " I like you honey" and say no more, don't add to the drama. It's their feelings - so let them manage them. And we need to manage ours.

[Notwendy]

Boundaries play a part as well. Many of us have poor boundaries. If we are very close to someone, and they say something about us, we accept that it could be true. Then we want to fix the perception.

As we get stronger boundaries, a stronger sense of who we are - when someone says something to us that we know for certain isn't true, we don't consider it, we don't JADE and we don't react.  Someone says something, we consider it- if it is true- we then let that past our boundary and decide what to do, or it isn't true and we let it go.

This isn't easy- as we care about our loved ones and sometimes they speak the truth to us and we don't want to hear it.

But sometimes we know. I've used the pink elephant analogy. If someone said " you are a pink elephant" would we JADE? would we own it? would we feel hurt? Probably not, because, we know for certain we are not pink elephants. But our loved ones say things that are just possibly true, or triggering.

So for the comment about me being rude by leaving the family event. I heard it, but I was quite certain that this didn't happen- it was about the storm. Then I had to step back and think - well that's how he saw it- and that's his thinking.  I can't fix someone's thinking. We were able to discuss the situation later, more calmly. Sometimes I think the comments are said in the moment- this is how they feel at that moment- but feelings can change.

We took the more serious discussions to marital T. I realized that we needed that kind of help to keep us grounded and on target. But the smaller spur of the moment comments, I tend to let go.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks FF and Notwendy for helping me unpack this. Yes, it's a challenge to dismiss the idea and not the person, especially when one is triggered by a comment that can be so wounding. And FF, the way you parsed this out makes me realize how easy it is for me to be snarky, instead of affirming, and of course pwBPD sense that underlying attitude, regardless of how much I trust my poker face to hide it.

Notwendy, as much as I try not to be affected by his bad attitudes, I still am. I caught myself last night when he asked me to help him fold the sheets for his studio bedroom. My first thought was that I never ask him for help when I do the laundry. I almost never ask him for help, unless something is too heavy for me to move by myself. I've learned that I'd rather do something myself rather than deal with him sighing, like I'm terribly inconveniencing him and then either a. doing things poorly because he doesn't know how and doesn't want me to tell him how to do it  or b. taking over and directing things when he doesn't know how to do them or very rarely   c. working like a team member. It's just not worth the gamble that I might miraculously get the third response.

So I began helping him fold the sheets, deferring to his idea of folding pattern. But of course, the edges didn't line up perfectly and he then snatched them out of my hands and started dysregulating. I continued to try to help until he accused me of "not helping." I'm thinking What the heck? Then he started angrily accusing me of being angry. I said, "I think you're projecting." I kept trying to help until he got angrier and nastier and then told me to "just go away."

So I did and on my way out, I said, "I won't be spoken to that way. I'm glad to help, but you don't need to be verbally abusive."

"Oh, you poor thing," he said. "It's always about you."

Which I thought was kind of funny because at that moment I wasn't angry, just amazed that someone would get so upset because corners of sheets didn't align perfectly. Yes, indeed, that was a sign he was trying to manipulate me into the drama triangle.

I've got a lot of work to detach emotionally and not take these things personally.

[Notwendy]

Are you sure you aren't in a relationship with my H? 


To me, Victim mode is the default. If we ask them for help, we are inconveniencing them. If they have to do something on their own, it isn't fair, we have to help to.

I can't read minds - so of course this is my idea about it, but it seems to fit. I have often wondered this too. If the trash needs to go out, and I do it, I just do it. But sometimes he wants me to hold the trash bag while he puts trash in it, or if there are two cans, I have to roll one out. This has so baffled me. I am way smaller than he is. Surely if I can take the trash out by myself- why can't he? My only conclusion is that there is something going on emotionally about this, but I can not change how someone thinks.

I've also learned that when we "talk things out" we have different ideas about this. I've also watched this happen in his FOO. I bring things up with the hope of mutual understanding. My H, and his FOO talk as a competition. In this context- the unspoken rules are that it is OK to say whatever it takes to win. Biggest bully wins. So, they can say mean hurtful things to each other, and once won, it is all over. Like a fake wrestling match. But since I assumed that my H means what he says, I have taken snarky comments to heart and cried - and spent way too much time being hurt when what he says is forgotten a little bit later. As a part of this - it seems he has to have the last word. So if I respond with a snarky comment, there will likely be one back until I back off and he gets the last one in.

I know I am not married to your H because he isn't a lawyer, but I think he would be a good one because lawyers can craftily verbal spar in the courtroom and then detach from it. The goal in the courtroom isn't "lets all hold hands and sing kumbaya"  . It is a goal to win- and the main instrument is words.

Your H is an expert at this. My take is to not accept verbal abuse, but also, to not take these comments as personally as they may not really be about you but just what works in the moment.

[Cat Familiar]

To me, Victim mode is the default. If we ask them for help, we are inconveniencing them. If they have to do something on their own, it isn't fair, we have to help to.


Ain't that the truth! 

I've experienced the same with the trash bag. Isn't that bizarre?

I weigh 118 lbs. while he's 185. I manage to push the 450 lb. tow-behind mower into the barn by myself (BTW I'm the only one who uses it), yet he'll ask for my help lifting something that's not at all unwieldy that weighs 40 pounds. Whatever... .I wouldn't at all mind, it's just the attitude that gets to me.

Like your husband, Notwendy, he sees things as a competition. Lots of times if I out-reason him, which is surprisingly easy to do when he's upset because his logic flies out the window, then he'll say "You win," when that's not what I'm trying to do at all. Usually my aim is to prevent something unfortunate happening, rather than to "win." Sometimes it's because I have experience doing something, like plumbing, electrical or carpentry and while I'll entertain listening to his idea, there are situations in which there is a correct way of doing things. And obviously, when it falls into these categories, I'll be the one carrying out the task solo. He just wants to think of himself as being smart, even though he knows very little about these things.

He acts as though he hates conflict, but he sure stirs it up over the most trivial things. I think the hardest thing for him when he practiced law was to detach from the sparring. He sure likes to win and I certainly like to express my opinion. I've been suppressing my point of view lately, due to wanting things to flow more smoothly. I'm realizing now that my pressure release valve needs to be opened more frequently, so I don't start boiling and say something unfortunate.

[Notwendy]

Imagine how sad it is to twist things into something hurtful, but we can't control someone's thinking.


One recent example is that H and I were out running errands, separately. I didn't know when he was coming home. I went to get groceries. Usually, I keep my purse up front but when I loaded the groceries in the car, I put my purse ( with phone) in the back too. I checked it, no calls. I would be home in about 10 minutes and wouldn't use the phone while driving anyway, so I left it.

I walked into the house to face frustrated H. I tried to call you. Then I texted you. Then the tirade- you NEVER answer me I can't ever get ahold of you.  I had no idea where you were etc etc.

The reality: I don't text and drive, I was in the car.
His thinking: I deliberately didn't text/call him back.

I just stopped and said sorry and proceeded to put the groceries away. I looked at my phone. It was about 9 minutes since he called. I "ignored " him for 9 minutes. This went into the pink elephant category.

I later calmly explained I was in the car, the purse was in the back, and I don't text and drive. He can believe me or not.

[Notwendy]

Which then led to another circular argument

" I never said you never answer your phone when I call. I did say you frequently don't answer it. You are making that up" ( I'm pretty sure he said never).

And the comparison. " When you call me I answer you but when I call you, you don't answer me".

And you can call my office if you want, but I don't have a way to call you other than your phone.

The actual truth is that, if I do call him at work he doesn't answer. The secretary takes a message and he can get back to me later. But he isn't at my beck and call by phone. I don't have a secretary and so, if I am busy or driving, I can't answer right away. But to say anything about this in the moment, is JADEing, and will lead to more circular arguments,



Clearly, this is going nowhere. My point is that, I was not ignoring him, I was in the car. I actually think he got that, but the conversation was not heading to resolution.

I know validation has a place here, I did validate the feeling, but I don't wish to validate that I was ignoring him on purpose or that I frequently do.

The only way I know to stop this kind of thing is to stop talking. It takes two to engage in a circular argument. The other part of this is that I know he heard me, but hearing me and backing down are two different things.

These incidents resolve much quicker and he gets the message when, I just literally stop and don't continue. Nor do I push him to back down. But instead of being upset, or take it personally, I just accept that we see this two different ways and I can't change that.

[formflier]

The psychologist that I have been seeing has taught me some about labeling... .or "suggesting" labels for emotions.  Many times just acknowledging the emotions of another is enough.

So... in Notwendy's example... ."you never call... you can always get me but I can't get you... .blah blah blah... "

Notwendy:  "That must be hard for you... ."  (maybe light touch or pat on arm... .and go on about something else.

I really liked saying "that must be hard for you to experience... .", but the underlying theme of the extras words really says that I don't agree... it's your experience... .not your reality. 

One of my favorite  phrases applies  "less is more"

There is also something that I have tried some... .it's a little more direct.  "Wow... .you are really mad at me... "


Another curve ball... .that I think I actually got a base hit on happened two days ago.  D19 did something that messed up  a staining project my wife was doing.  Honestly, D19 was being a bit heartless... .or certainly careless.  Well, wife says something and D19 stand her ground... .actually kinda doubled down. 

Off we went to the races.  Biggest dysreg we have had in a long time.  Wife actually did healthy thing and retreated to her bedroom after it was obvious that D19 was standing ground (she's a chip of my old block... very stubborn).

I said nothing.  After 5 minutes I went in, handed wife some water and started massaging her shoulders.  She was venting and inviting me to join in.  I massaged for a while and finally said something to the effect of "gotta lovem'... .even when you want to chokem... "  Wife got a chuckle.

So... probably 10-15 minutes of massaging.  I gave her a swat on the rear... .wished her luck in parenting... .and left room and went back to what I was doing.

Big picture was that I was going to do something nice, wasn't going to talk much but listen a lot.  If anything really worth validating came out... .I was going to try... .but it didn't get very specific.

FF

[Notwendy]

I like that response and it seems you are making progress with the counselor and the relationship.

I do admit to losing patience with the imaginary slights. I'm in general a gentle soul who doesn't have intentions to do mean things to people. I don't intentionally ignore phone calls. My H and I have two different worlds. He may be busy during the day, but has a central office where a secretary answers the phone. As a mom, I am in the car a lot, or the grocery store, the cleaners, and I do work part time- but don't have a secretary. So, if I am in the car, or on the phone with one of the kids, and he calls, I don't answer immediately.

I don't intentionally ignore him. I have even pulled off the road, parked, and answered him if he calls. I can understand that it is frustrating to call me and not speak to me or someone right away. What is crazy making is the story that I am doing something to him- and that is something that has cause much issues between us- and I can't change the thinking.

I have spent so much time in the past trying to get him to understand this from my perspective, but my world is not visible to him. He doesn't do the household things ( and I also don't do his job at work ). So he can fill in the blanks about what I do all day and assign intentions to that that don't exist. And he believes what he thinks. I used to JADE but realized that didn't do any good. Sometimes we are able to work this out at a later time, but I have to accept that we can perceive things differently.

It's a great suggestion to say " that must be hard for you". I have to admit that my first thought when walking in the house- with food to prepare for dinner -his dinner too ( and I cook for all of us)  hearing " you are ignoring me" was "oh no- again?"

[formflier]

Ok... .this is outside of psychologist advice... .but the general theme stays true. 

If you can't bring yourself to be empathetic, then be true to yourself, but keep it short and to the point.

"I am pissed off right now because of your ridiculous mind reading.  Leave me alone." 

Then stop talking about it.

If he persists in jabbering I would leave the house and go get yourself a nice dinner.  Yep... .leave them ALL to fend for themselves.

True, it's not your kids fault, but it also teaches them a bit of a lesson about fending for themselves... .it also teaches them in some ways to not be a doormat. 

Later, he will likely want to explain how you are unreasonable and it isn't his fault.  "I'm not able to cook while being interrogated"  Likely there is a better word.  The intent is to name the issue that is present without blaming him for it.


FF

[formflier]

Very much like a man to sit there an offer advice first... .to fix first... .and then go "oh yeah... .talk about the r/s"

Yes, r/s is much better.  I usually say "for now" in my mind.  But... .fundamentally it is better. 

Likely it will always be quite eccentric and somewhat dysfunctional. 

I have no way to explain to others how exactly to follow the path I am/have taken other than to say a skilled therapist is essential.  I'm kinda doing the 3 legged stool thing. 

1.  therapist
2.  bpdfamily
3.  circle of friends that I DO NOT talk about BPD things with.  In other words an attempt at normal life.

In other words, fairly new guy to friend circle goes bowling with me and family.  The highlight of the conversation with him was talking about heading to junkyard to get used parts for my truck and he told stories about getting used parts for his cars.  Basically we were congratulating ourselves for all the money we were saving and lessons we were passing on to our kids. 

There is a change that sort of comes over a person when their partner dysregulates.

The new FF is much more likely to say "oh my... .that sucks for you... " (or variations)

older FF

"how dare you... ."  (let me use some of these tools to fix you)

I still like the boundaries mindset, although I have tweaked it a bit to say "build a structure" inside which my wife can make choices about improving her and the r/s.  She also has a choice to stay inside the structure or leave it.   

FF

[zonnebloem]

 

"mine" would ask me why I never slap him realy hard in the face.
Altough I felt that he was so annoying, asking for it... .I couln't do it.

Also couln't give all te love-making he asked for.

A slap in the face... .mmm... .and then move on -single- sounds easy.

[Notwendy]

Yep, what happened is more of the latter, but the smell of dinner cooking calmed things down. That doormat ship has sailed... .

I feel fortunate that our issues are relatively mild- or at least from my perspective as my BPD mom is very affected. One thing that stumped me is that I didn't expect the mind reading from someone so put together and competent as my H. So when I was accused of something, I really considered it- tried to fix it- took it to heart- even though some of the accusations were absurd.

When I tried to explain-(in the past ) in the heat of the moment - it entered into circular arguments where I was presumed "guilty" and then presented with a string of logical sounding "evidence". Eventually, I'd just break down and cry from the sheer frustration of them. Then, the discussion would shift to how illogical and emotional I am, while proving how logical and calm my H was.  Eventually, I started to fear that I was the crazy one.

When I look back at some of the accusations, I just shake my head. Then I also think how sad- for the many times I have been out doing some sort of act of caring for my family- and it isn't perceived as such because of the thought patterns.

[Notwendy]

FF- sounds like you are doing a lot better!

[Notwendy]

The saga continues... .

One other factor- our ability to regulate our emotions can vary for all of us. The classic things that do affect this is being tired, hungry, lonely, angry, and other emotions.

I know that there is something going on in my H's life that he is angry about- it has nothing to do with anyone in our immediate family, but he is baseline angry and the mood is angry.

With emotions, some of us tend to project, some of us sulk, cry.

We had another exchange. I was in the laundry room with the washer going. I have a soft voice. He needed to go so he asked me a quick question about plans for the family- not something emotional- and wanted the answer now. I tried to answer him but he couldn't hear me. So then, I shouted the answer so I could be heard over the sound of the washing machine.

A few minutes later he comes up to me " Are you done yelling at me yet?"

That's when I said, please stop making up stories about me- and he stomped out the door.

In a previous time, I would have thought this was about me, and cried, and tried to fix it. I know he isn't angry at me- but he is angry. He will have to work this out on his own time. I don't have to accept poor treatment, but also, I need to not add to the fire. It would be very convenient to be the feeling manager if he gets to release his anger at me. He may actually be trying for that by accusing me. But to not be an emotional caretaker means to let him deal with his anger himself.

And mine, cause this is exacerbating. That's where self care is important.

[formflier]

But to not be an emotional caretaker means to let him deal with his anger himself.

And mine, cause this is exacerbating. That's where self care is important.

This describes what it was hard for me to understand for a while... .a long while.

I would think that if I just pointed our my wife's error in thinking... .which was so obvious to me... .

FF

[Notwendy]

I've tried that too, but it is invalidating and tends to make things worse in the moment.

There have been some doozies. I was accused of "cheating" with a school crush who I hadn't seen since school. And all it was was a crush- the crush didn't even know about it!

I kept asking how could it be cheating to have a crush on someone years before I met my H?

But at the moment, he was convinced I cheated. At the time, although rationally I didn't think it was possible, I felt terrible, guilty, that I had somehow done something wrong.

The incident blew over like it was nothing for him, but I was very puzzled, bewildered and upset by it. Since then, there have been dozens more accusations like this.

I have really tried to keep centered on being true to my own ethics. I think cheating is wrong and so, I don't break my own ethics. I also don't deliberately ignore phone calls. I'm not a mean person. I have to keep a focus on that so that accusations don't change that. The pink elephant analogy helps. If I know what I did or didn't do, being accused of it doesn't change that focus. And I don't have to defend what isn't true.

It's hard sometimes. I wish I could change the kind of thinking that leads to this, because, in reality, things are pretty good between us. He's a pretty good guy, I think I'm a decent human being. Rationally he knows this. But the imagination seems to create issues that aren't there.

[formflier]

  But the imagination seems to create issues that aren't there.

I think... .from time to time... .it is ok for you to name this... .say this... .and then move along.

If it invalidates him... .that is ok.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Wow! I hear so much in this conversation that reflects my life. Something I'm becoming aware of is that I have much less patience with BPD husband #2 after enduring BPD mom and BPD husband #1.

I'm going to try the following sentences: "That must be hard for you... ." "Wow... .you are really mad at me... "

Like you, Notwendy, "I'm in general a gentle soul who doesn't have intentions to do mean things to people." This certainly fits how I see myself and I think just about anyone else who knows me would agree. So I'm aghast when my husband accuses me of doing  things with the sole intention of hurting him.

If you can't bring yourself to be empathetic, then be true to yourself, but keep it short and to the point. "I am pissed off right now because of your ridiculous mind reading.  Leave me alone."   I love this! I try so hard to be empathetic 24/7, that when accused of "not caring" about his feelings, I'd like to punch him in the face--of course I'd never do that, but good grief! I don't think I could possibly care more about his feelings. I think that's my problem. I need to care less.

One thing that stumped me is that I didn't expect the mind reading from someone so put together and competent as my H. So when I was accused of something, I really considered it- tried to fix it- took it to heart- even though some of the accusations were absurd.

Yes, I totally understand this one. My mother, who was so illogical and who said such outlandish stuff--it was easier to dismiss some of her accusations, but coming from a seemingly rational person, I really questioned myself--am I so oblivious to my own motivations that this might be true?

Then I also think how sad- for the many times I have been out doing some sort of act of caring for my family- and it isn't perceived as such because of the thought patterns.

Oh, yes. It's really heartbreaking when you've done something kind and loving and it's twisted into something ugly and selfish by their disordered thinking.

I know that there is something going on in my H's life that he is angry about- it has nothing to do with anyone in our immediate family, but he is baseline angry and the mood is angry.

Yes. My husband seems to find things to be angry about on a regular basis. I used to think he was angry with me. I know differently now, but it's still hard to be around someone who is chronically low-level angry.

I have a soft voice. He needed to go so he asked me a quick question about plans for the family- not something emotional- and wanted the answer now. I tried to answer him but he couldn't hear me. So then, I shouted the answer so I could be heard over the sound of the washing machine. A few minutes later he comes up to me " Are you done yelling at me yet?"

I, too, have a soft voice and to try to talk loudly, it comes out as shouting. I've had very similar experiences.  

I agree that sometimes invalidating is useful. Now that I'm more aware of not unintentionally invalidating, I do want to call out my husband on his sucky behavior at times. I was a doormat in marriage #1. Not going there again in marriage #2.