BPD mother sexualizing my past.

[Notwendy]

Ugh, I feel icky.

I suspect my mother was sexually abused as a teen. I have no proof, but she tends to have poor boundaries when it comes to that topic.

When I was a teen, she shared TMI about her relationship with my father with me. She was also very attractive and men were very interested in her- which she told me about as well. She also tried to get me to share TMI when I started dating.

Well, there was not much to share. I was very shy. I had a close circle of friends, occasionally dated a boy, but was not precocious. In fact, I was a late bloomer compared to my friends who were interested in dating before I was.

There were guys who noticed me and my friends, but mostly I was too shy or not interested. I preferred to hang out with my close friends. But I must have told my mother about some times- as she surely recalls them- with more false detail than I even imagined.

We were talking about the recent political scandals and somehow my mother started talking about me as a teen. She mentioned that these older guys were interested in me when I was younger, and claims I wanted to go out with them and she wouldn't let me. Then she mentioned some guy tried to pick me up and I wanted to go out with him. I don't recall that at all.

What? Never in a million years would I have even considered that.

Is she projecting what she did, or wanted to do, when she was younger on the younger version of me?

I know she fabricates things, but this is just creepy. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Notwendy 

I can surely understand how this would make you feel really uncomfortable. I'm so sorry. I don't like reading about it either, and it makes me mad that she is doing this. Not right.

One of the books I've read about borderlines mentions that they remember things differently than we do. Causes us surviving children of BPDs to question our own sense of reality. Who is right and who is telling the truth? I'm sure you are wondering the same thing. They often have a distorted sense of reality and it fits well with the mental dysfunction that's part of their makeup. As their children, we still look to them as our parent nontheless, and I find a great struggle within myself to believe my point of view or understanding over theirs.

Trust yourself. Trust your memories. Notice that your mom still made this story about herself by indicating that the info was her 'secret' in a sense because she knew it and you didn't. A lot of uneeded drama in your life.

 
Wools

[Sunfl0wer]

She mentioned that these older guys were interested in me when I was younger, and claims I wanted to go out with them and she wouldn't let me. Then she mentioned some guy tried to pick me up and I wanted to go out with him. I don't recall that at all.

I can completely see my sis with BPD thinking she "saved" her daughter from men who she felt were oogling at her D.  Hypothetically, Could have been something simple like a male teacher (that mom thought was sexy and felt aroused by) asking D14 to stay after to improve a math grade, daughter asking permission, then Mom "saving" her from her "sexualized" fate.  All the while D and the Math teacher literally focused on concern for a math grade.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Notwendy:

I can see how your mom's comments would disturb you.   If you haven't read the article at the links below about, "Why Do Narcissists and Borderlines Lie So Much", you might find it helpful. 

www.BPDcentral.com/blog/?Why-Do-Narcissists-and-Borderlines-Lie-So-Much-24

[Notwendy]

Thanks all-

My mother constantly lies, so I am used to that. It was just icky to have her say these things about her teen age ( at the time) daughter. Although she never touched any of us inappropriately, she would speak of TMI when discussing sexual issues. I think this conversation brought back some of how that felt.

This is why I think my mother may have been sexually abused as a teen herself. She also didn't protect me from anyone- rather the opposite- she seemed distressed that we weren't dating or sexually active enough. I am not sure what that idea was to her.

I think this contributed to my being as shy and reticent about dating as I was. I knew I was interested- had crushes, but meeting guys and dating was actually an uncomfortable experience for me.

I also think this conversation was part of the "shock factor"- realizing how odd things were when I was a child, but then, our FOO seemed "normal" to us. When I became a mother, I realized just how "off" my mother was. I also feel that my parents didn't really know me, and for my mother, I think she saw her "projections" on me. If this is what she remembers about me, then it isn't anything like the shy teen I really was.

[Grey Kitty]

My mother constantly lies, so I am used to that. It was just icky to have her say these things about her teen age ( at the time) daughter.

You are used to the her lying, and have accepted it.

Yes, this *IS* icky, and it is a new-ish variant of icky from the usual ones from your mom. That would be a bit of a shock for anyone. Her projecting things that are opposite of your nature onto you is extra uncomfortable as well. 

I'm wondering if there is more to this for you? Do you think you are taking it personally because there is something in it that is more triggering to you? Perhaps something you didn't realize needs to be addressed?

There may not be--there is of obvious surface reason to be upset here.

This is why I think my mother may have been sexually abused as a teen herself.

This possibility is one more reason to feel compassion for her. If she was, is there anything you could or would do differently with her to help?

[Notwendy]

GK, I think her ideas of me are just icky because they are projections, not me. As a mother now, I have had experiences of recalling my mother and thinking who would say/do that to a child? Growing up, the mother we have is basically what we know. As a mom, and being friends with other mothers, I see things differently.

I did feel compassion for my mother when I began to suspect she may have been sexually abused and that helped me to relate to her. But as far as helping her, I also had to learn to not be co-dependent. I have been trying to "help" her since I was a teen and my role as an adult child was as a caretaker. I think all of us felt we had to do, say, or be, the thing that would "make mom better".

I do treat her with compassion, but I have to have boundaries with her. I am sorry to think that someone may have hurt her as a child. She didn't deserve that. Nobody does. But she has long refused psychological help, and that is the kind of help that I think would be most helpful.

[Grey Kitty]

GK, I think her ideas of me are just icky because they are projections, not me.

They are clearly her projections; that wasn't really my question.

I saw a recent topic referring to a pwBPD insisting that the grass was purple, as an example. Something like that would be pretty easy to hear, because you won't take it personally and won't be triggered at all by that.

My question was whether you think there might have been anything in there that you found personally triggering, which might point at something you could personally work on.

I know that for myself, some of these projections/false accusations did hit some kind of old wound in me... .one of mine was being told what I thought or felt.

This topic is difficult and uncomfortable without it being personal and triggering for you, but that is what I was asking you about. To put it another way... .

If your mother does this again, do you expect to be upset, or do you expect to say to yourself "Sigh, more of this stuff?"

[Notwendy]

GK, I agree that being triggered is a gift in a way as it tells me something to work on. More and more, she triggers me less, which is good. Sometimes though, the things she says are more hurtful than others.

This is a hard one to be clear about. I think though, it was just gross. It didn't trigger something that was hurtful, just a yuk, like reading about someone sexualizing a young teen. In fact, it was that yuk about a political scandal that my mother then went straight to her story.

If she said grass was purple, I would think " that's crazy" but there is a yuk factor to sexualizing a young teen, any teen. But somewhere a boundary is crossed when a parent speaks of their child like that.

[Woolspinner2000]

Thank you for sharing such a vulnerable place and time In your life with us, Notwendy. That takes courage, and it is a good discussion for us to ponder.

In recent conversations with my T, I've been examining some of the 'instructional' parts of my childhood, in particular those about feelings and what I learned from my uBPDm. I wonder if the same doesn't also apply in this situation. Let me try to explain. First let me say that I also get those yucky feelings when it comes to sexual innuendos coming from my mom or any mom.   You show that you have a great sense of compassion for your mom in spite of the  uncomfortableness you are experiencing. Is it also possible/probable that such 'yuk' reactions are different for a male or female, and a child as compared with an adult?

If our pwBPD said that the grass was purple as Grey Kitty suggested, why would we believe it is crazy? If we had been taught by a parent that it was true from our youngest days, how would we know otherwise? We were often taught to believe something was true by our pwBPD when in reality it was false. I surmise that we only know differently if we are taught the truth that matches reality. We know that the grass is green because truth supports it. Things don't become true because we believe them. They are true because they ARE true.

My uBPDm taught me from the cradle that to have feelings separate from her own matching feelings, or to say it another way, to express any feelings differently than hers was shameful, selfish, disrespectful, and on the list could go. Now after being in T, I understand and believe and know that she was incorrect in her teaching. If she were still alive, would she believe me now that I am armed with truth? No, she would not, for her reality is different than mine, and sadly it is what she was taught to believe as truth.

For Notwendy to understand innately that the things her mom said caused her to be uncomfortable is truly a gift from God, I believe. Somehow she had the instinct to know this, even as a teenager, and indeed what a wonder that is!  Those are the protections that I feel God gives us in the deepest parts of ourselves. Now that you are an adult, you can dissect further what she says and see that it is gross and yucky and innappropriate and not true, yet it also brings reminders of the uncomfortable past which so many of us have endured and would rather forget.

Pete Walker has often been mentioned at our site with his thoughts about emotional triggers being opportunities for us to take another look at what we were not able to deal with from the past. I think that may be what Grey Kitty is trying to say. As with any trigger, we can take the opportunity to pause and see if there is something our inner child may need to be comforted for. Does your inner child just need a hug and reassurance that your mom was being inappropriate back then (as well as now) and that you are so proud of your little one for taking care of herself and being careful and strong in spite of mom's dysfunction? You deserve a big hug and high fives for that Little Notwendy! 

 
Wools

[Grey Kitty]

Notwendy, (And you too, wools  ) you got exactly where I was going... .I wanted to (gently) ask you if you thought that this was triggering in a way that pointed you toward something that was calling you to work on it... .or whether it was simply a icky yucky feeling because, well, it *IS* disturbing and icky.

I don't think you should spend much more time digging deeply into this icky territory in order to be certain... .if there *is* something personal and triggering hiding out, when you need to work on it, I'm sure it will show up again and remind you.

[Turkish]

This isn't quite the same thing,  but I remember at 14, we were driving and listening to the soundtrack from the musical Hair. I didn't ask questions, but my mom explained oral sex to me. I remember thinking,  "Ew, why is she telling me this?"

A year earlier, when we were living on the 25 acres, a mile from the nearest electrical pole, she talked about a shed on the property. "You can play in the loft, but you'd never ever bring a girl up there!" ? We were a mile east  of the nearest neighbor (an older couple), and the next nearest neighbors were about seven miles beyond that.  To the west up the hill,  the nearest civilization was a mile away.  I remember thinking,  "what girls?  Where am I going to get some girl to bring to our property which had no electricity, indoor plumbing or even an out house?"

I hope I never say weird off the wall, inappropriate things to my kids. 

[Notwendy]

Thanks all,

I think Wools touched on something that became apparent as I became a mother. As children, we became used to our mother's telling us the grass is purple. It becomes our normal and we don't know anything else.

I really wanted to be a good mother to my kids and looked at other mothers for role models, including some of my friends who were mothers. There have been several moments as a mother when I realized some of the things my mother did that we had to accept were unacceptable. There is kind of a shock factor to that- not the same feeling as a trigger, but a realization that this was not something a mother should do to a child- yet we were expected to pretend it was OK.

Sometimes we felt or knew that something was wrong. My friends' mothers didn't act like mine did. But if we dared to ask our father, or another adult family member - we were told it was normal, or our fault.

A lot of my mothers "memories" of our childhood are fabrications or possibly projections. But sometimes I recall things she did, and realize they are unacceptable. They would qualify as child abuse today. I think I have come to terms with a lot of it, but sometimes - such as this conversation- I realize how what we had to consider as OK was not.

[Sunfl0wer]

"Ew, why is she telling me this?"

I hope I never say weird off the wall, inappropriate things to my kids.

This kinda got me thinking... .

Had me thinking of my own raising of my boy.
As a single mom, I have had to have conversations that maybe other moms don't have with a male child.  I recall at 7, him asking about what he saw on the Simpsons cartoon.  (A mummy broke through wrappings due to erection). I did answer him pretty matter of fact, defined erection, then moved right on to watching show.  I felt if he could ask the question, and it was likely also relevant to his life, then he deserved an answer for it.  I also felt avoiding the conversation would communicate a sense of shame/embarrassment, for his own body, and for it responding naturally sexually.

So I was thinking, well, sex really IS a tricky thing to chat about often.  So yea, both kids and adults may feel like the talking about it is odd.  Yet, I also sense, this is not at all what Notwendy was speaking of, but rather icky, which I suspect quite different.  

So I'd like to think my chats with my son re sexuality, throughout his life, were always appropriate, relevant, and at his level, things he was wanting to know vs things I was simply wanting to share.  I hope I took accurate cues from him.

I'm just bringing this up because it may help, idk... .
But maybe there is a similarity of intent. (Or maybe not, and one is just behaving inappropriate). Maybe the pwBPD had same intent as I did when I spoke of erection to my son.  Maybe their intent was to in some way normalize and acknowledge sexuality and de-shame it... .

Maybe it was intentionally done yet, the way it was done, was a bit misguided due to the BPD.  Maybe it is about their inability to be emotionally in tune to their child, and when they are trying to empathize, they get confused in who's feelings are whose as they have enmeshment tendencies.

I guess in the case of Notwendy, I am bringing this up because for me, thinking in terms of a mom who is just not able to sort out their own feelings from "emotional empathy" ones and just mixes up assigning proper empathy at times due to lack of being in tune to another/aka self centered oriented... .seems a little less yucky than a mom trying to "make me" sexual when I am not.

Really wanting to say, was really Turkish comments that spurred me to write, cause I felt I can so see similar possibility of intent of a mom trying to normalize sex, thinking she is doing a good mom like thing and getting it all wrong.  (Adding that disclaimer cause not at all wanting to be either minimizing your experience or make it bigger than it is by droning on or such cause... .and cause the icky seems different to me for you... .so maybe less relevant to you, idk... .fwiw, ... .leave what not needed of course)