Change of plan

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My struggle has gone on long enough. I've stepped right back and taken a long, hard look at whats been happening and I'm changing my plan.

I've been trying to detach and failing, not completely, but 10 months on I am still engaging with him even if only by email. I always respond and despite dire warnings from my therapist I'm probably going to continue. I've decided therefore to change my attitude, learn about boundaries and communicate more productively.

I'm still trauma bonded, but I'm aware of it so I'll be ok. Despite my therapist's concerns I am feeling stronger and would prefer this.

He wrote to me yesterday telling me to get in quick as tickets for Adele are selling out fast. I thanked him, but it was too late, they'd sold out. He then offered to sell me his tickets. He's not a fan so I think this was used as an excuse to reach out. It was a kind gesture. He later went on to tell me what I should be doing, and my therapist said it was back to control, but it's all ok. He doesn't have control over me anymore.

I need to work out what my goal is here and I'm still a little confused. It's too late for a recycle as I don't want to be abused anymore. Things would have to drastically change and I know enough now to realise that they won't. I would prefer if things were wound up in a nicer way and this could be it.

If he contacts me again which seems likely I'll take it from there. If he dysregulates and insults/accuses me I'll assert a boundary. If he is 'normal' then its ok.

My therapist is worried as she sees him as more NPD and antisocial than borderline, but I feel I can handle this and feel much better if we can both be nicer and kinder.

[Larmoyant]

My struggle has gone on long enough. I've stepped right back and taken a long, hard look at whats been happening and I'm changing my plan.

I've been trying to detach and failing, not completely, but 10 months on I am still engaging with him even if only by email. I always respond and despite dire warnings from my therapist I'm probably going to continue. I've decided therefore to change my attitude, learn about boundaries and communicate more productively.

I'm still trauma bonded, but I'm aware of it so I'll be ok. Despite my therapist's concerns I am feeling stronger and would prefer this.

He wrote to me yesterday telling me to get in quick as tickets for Adele are selling out fast. I thanked him, but it was too late, they'd sold out. He then offered to sell me his tickets. He's not a fan so I think this was used as an excuse to reach out. It was a kind gesture. He later went on to tell me what I should be doing, and my therapist said it was back to control, but it's all ok. He doesn't have control over me anymore.

I need to work out what my goal is here and I'm still a little confused. It's too late for a recycle as I don't want to be abused anymore. Things would have to drastically change and I know enough now to realise that they won't. I would prefer if things were wound up in a nicer way and this could be it.

If he contacts me again which seems likely I'll take it from there. If he dysregulates and insults/accuses me I'll assert a boundary. If he is 'normal' then its ok.

My therapist is worried as she sees him as more NPD and antisocial than borderline, but I feel I can handle this and feel much better if we can both be nicer and kinder.

[formflier]

I'm still trauma bonded, but I'm aware of it so I'll be ok. Despite my therapist's concerns I am feeling stronger and would prefer this.

  It's too late for a recycle as I don't want to be abused anymore. Things would have to drastically change and I know enough now to realise that they won't. I would prefer if things were wound up in a nicer way and this could be it.

If he contacts me again which seems likely I'll take it from there. If he dysregulates and insults/accuses me I'll assert a boundary. If he is 'normal' then its ok.

My therapist is worried as she sees him as more NPD and antisocial than borderline, but I feel I can handle this and feel much better if we can both be nicer and kinder.

Larmoyant,

I'm not familiar with your story.  Sometimes a fresh perspective is helpful.

Can you take a paragraph or two and explain your therapists concerns about the r/s.  :)oes your T have a recommendation that you are... .or are not following... .or partially following?

If things would have to drastically change to recycle... .and you are sure they won't.  Where is this going?  At first blush... .it would appear you are setting yourself up for a no-win.

I do see where you express confusion or uncertainty about what you are doing.  We've all been there... .it's ok.  I'm glad you are being honest with yourself

I am very... .VERY uncomfortable with your last musing about "we" being nicer and kinder.  You have NO control... .whatsoever... about "we".  Is there something there that I am perhaps misinterpreting?

FF big picture advice.  I don't agree with your statement that things will never change.  If YOU change your part in the "dance" of your r/s... .by definition... .there will be change.  It may appear that your partner is trying to get you to change back... .but he will eventually change as well.

This is not an exact science... .the change may be better or worse... .or a lateral move.

I think the critical step is for you to determine how you want to "behave" in this r/s.  Ignore your partner.  I only want to read about the kind of person YOU want to be.

Once we see that... .I think we can give you advice about the best way to "live that out" in some sort of r/s with a pwBPD (or other similar dysfunction)

Hope this helps organize your thinking a bit...

FF

[Larmoyant]

Hi formflier, thank you for helping me wade through all this.

Can you take a paragraph or two and explain your therapists concerns about the r/s.  :)oes your T have a recommendation that you are... .or are not following... .or partially following?

.

My therapist says he is highly abusive, controlling and has concerns about the effect that his behaviour has on my emotional welfare to the point she believes he could destroy me. Sometimes I agree, but other times I feel strong enough to cope with him. I started seeing her whilst still in the relationship,and she helped me see what was going on and I eventually managed to end it. There have been many times when I've felt traumatised by some of the things he did, but now, 10 months on, I feel stronger. Sometimes I feel sorry for him as he is clearly troubled. He can be very cruel, but he can be also be very funny and kind, e.g. the concert tickets.

My therapist has described this as manipulative, and maybe that's true, but I also see it as him reaching out in some way. I've seen him struggle a lot with his emotions. He really does seem to be a mixture of different personalities. His moods change quickly. BPD and Schema theory have helped me understand this. Unfortunately, being on the receiving end of this eroded me to the point where I became very anxious and depressed and so my therapist recommends no contact at all. I was trying to do that, but found it very difficult and have recently started to question whether or not I want to detach.

.If things would have to drastically change to recycle... .and you are sure they won't.  Where is this going?  At first blush... .it would appear you are setting yourself up for a no-win.

.

This is a good question and highlights my confusion because I'm not really sure where it's going. I'm still emotionally enmeshed with him and he appears to be similar. Initially, my aim was to completely detach, no contact, but it's not working out very well. I always respond to his emails/texts so I've accepted that now and want to work with it. I thought learning about boundaries would be useful in this regard and useful in my life overall.

. I am very... .VERY uncomfortable with your last musing about "we" being nicer and kinder.  You have NO control... .whatsoever... about "we".  Is there something there that I am perhaps misinterpreting?

.

I'll try to explain. I would prefer it if it ended on friendly terms, being kinder, not holding onto resentment or anger. I mean I loved him and would prefer to remember this and would like him to know that I cared for him and understand his struggle. Holding on to anger seems to keep me in the relationship somehow whereas being 'nicer' or 'friendlier' helps me detach more. If that makes any sense? I think, although I can't be sure, but maybe this is what he was trying to do as well? The concert tickets were a nice gesture, kind, but then again who knows what he's thinking. I don't really have any idea do I? Am I trying to control the outcome do you think?

. FF big picture advice.  I don't agree with your statement that things will never change.  If YOU change your part in the "dance" of your r/s... .by definition... .there will be change.  It may appear that your partner is trying to get you to change back... .but he will eventually change as well.

.

I can see this. When I reflect back my reactions weren't good, e.g. I'd JADE a lot. I can see that if I'd reacted differently then I would have added less fuel to the fire. Maybe I could learn to communicate better if he contacts me again. It's likely he will, based on the last 10 months, but if he doesn't I'm ok with that. At least I think so. I know I won't initiate any contact. It's confusing.

.I think the critical step is for you to determine how you want to "behave" in this r/s.  Ignore your partner.  I only want to read about the kind of person YOU want to be.

.

I'd like my stronger side to come back and stay. The calm, capable person, who understands where he is coming from, but reacts calmly, not anxiously, fearfully, defensively or angrily. I would like to learn about boundaries so I'm not 'taken over' by his personality or anyone who acts like this to me. I also want to be true to my character, which is to be understanding, but I'm afraid that this may leave me open to abuse. I'm afraid to be who I was before on some level because of what's happened to me.     

[babyducks]

Larmoyant,

Sometimes I think the only way out is through.   There is something to be said for knowing, all the way down to the bottom of your soul, that you did everything you could.    It's solace in a way.   I can tell you I couldn't have done one more thing to make my relationship successful and mean it with utter sincerity.   That it changed the outcome not at all is a tragedy.

That being said, your therapist is raising big     .   I deeply hope that you are taking every step to protect yourself, physically, financially, emotionally.

 I would like to learn about boundaries so I'm not 'taken over' by his personality or anyone who acts like this to me.      

How do you start establishing boundaries so that you are not taken over by his personality?   Where would you like to begin?

'ducks

[formflier]

Larmoyant,

Thanks for the good reply post.  It clarifies some things.

How long have you been seeing your T?

How many months... .how often?  Can you give a guess of how many sessions you have had with each other?

Do you like the T... .trust the T?

Next thought:

It seems to matter to you what he thinks of you... or the r/s.  You seem to want to remember this r/s fondly... .and you want him to as well. 

Am I correct in saying, that if you were to get to a place where "it was over"... .but... .each of you saw this as a nice or fond memory... .it would be easier for you to move on.  Easier for him to move on.

Do I have this correct?  (if not... please update my understanding... )

Last thought:

I really like the introspection and putting your feelings and thoughts out there... .very good stuff.  And it helps others guide or nudge you to examine things from other points of view.

FF

[Larmoyant]

babyducks, looking back I could have done a lot better, knowing what I do now that is. It crosses my mind sometimes that maybe things could have been different if I'd changed my actions/reactions. He really tried to be with me at times. It's sad remembering those times.

As for protection I started to see a therapist and she has helped me to keep focused.  Also, I moved so he doesn't know my address. He pretty much chased off friends and relatives so he can only contact me via phone/email. I'm not sure if I'm protecting myself emotionally because I've kept the door ajar.

I seem to have a disconnect in place preventing me from knowing how I really feel. On the one hand he has  abused me and the horror of it makes me angry/scared and to never speak to him again, but then again I still have strong feelings for him. I think he can't help some of it and I remember the good times. It's such a struggle that sometimes I just want to give up. Let whatever's going to happen, happen. 

formflier, I've been seeing my therapist for about 15 months now. I started seeing her whilst I was still in the relationship, although he didn't want me to. I was becoming more and more depressed and she says traumatised. On average once every two or three weeks. I like her. She has been a major support, and I trust her. She is actually seeing me for free right now which is incredibly kind to get me over the last hurdle. She says I will eventually pay it forwards.

. It seems to matter to you what he thinks of you... or the r/s.  You seem to want to remember this r/s fondly... .and you want him to as well.

.
 
Yes, sometimes he viewed me as a good person and other times I was the devil, a cheat, untrustworthy, liar, those sorts of things and that's not who I am. I would like it if he remembered me as a person who understood him a little, who tried hard to make it work. Likewise, he, at times, seemed to really try, but it was too difficult for him. I remember those times and it makes me sad for both of us.

.Am I correct in saying, that if you were to get to a place where "it was over"... .but... .each of you saw this as a nice or fond memory... .it would be easier for you to move on.  Easier for him to move on.

.

Yes, there seems to be a calmness to it, some peace among all this chaos and confusion. Some closure and acknowledgement that it wasn't all bad. I'll stop trying to speak for him, but for me it would make it a lot easier. There's been so much negativity and darkness and I am a positive, usually happy person. I'd like to return to being that way. Not this shell-shocked stranger in the mirror.

[babyducks]

Larmoyant,

When I first joined here some one said in a thread that "pwBPD can not self soothe and we as the people who enter relationships with them can not self validate.   Both are unhealthy levels of need."

That rang so many bells for me I wrote it down.   It certainly described me.    I couldn't self validate.  It was an unhealthy level of need.

My self esteem was so low, that when I met my person with BPD the idealization was like manna from heaven.   To me there is nothing quite like that idealization.   If I had a healthy self regard for myself I am pretty sure I would have gone in a different direction with some of my decisions.

Yes, sometimes he viewed me as a good person and other times I was the devil, a cheat, untrustworthy, liar, those sorts of things and that's not who I am. I would like it if he remembered me as a person who understood him a little, who tried hard to make it work.

I'm not sure what my person thinks of me now.   She is still struggling with her mental health and stability.   What I know for a fact is it is none of my business what she thinks.   And I can't really impact what she thinks.    It's up to me to self validate.   It's up to me to think I was a person who understood her a little and who tried hard to make it work.      If I believe so it will be enough.

because formflier is here with us, I will say that those times when he thinks you are a cheat, a liar, don't take the bait.   let that pitch blow by you.     engaging in the who is right/wrong, better/worse, deserving/not deserving is not productive.   I know from my experience that my partner didn't need to be present for me to continue that debate.   I could do it internally without her even being around.    there was an awful lot of projected shame in my r/s.   more than I realized.  and more than I knew stuck with me.    none of us do our relationships perfectly, we do the best we can with the information we had at the time.  I have come to learn that she projected a lot of her negative emotions on to me and I projected a lot of my good intentions onto her.   Neither was accurate.   

'ducks

[Notwendy]

Hi Laramont,

I have a questions- while reading your posts- and the answer is the one that you think is true for you. Do you think there is triangulation going on with your T? Your T says not to see/contact him, that he could be seriously bad for you. Your response is that he isn't what the T thinks he is and that you want to be on better terms with him.

T=persecutor - don't contact him.
You= rescuer, defender, he isn't that bad.
Him= in victim position.

Sometimes understanding why we feel what we do and make the choices we do helps us consider those choices. Sometimes the "forbidden" can seem hard to resist.

Babyducks point = not being able to self validate  is a really good one. But we can learn to do it.

[formflier]

  I have come to learn that she projected a lot of her negative emotions on to me and I projected a lot of my good intentions onto her.   Neither was accurate.   
 

Massive statement. 

So often we focus "on what they do" and don't look hard at our projections.

FF

[formflier]

formflier, I've been seeing my therapist for about 15 months now. I started seeing her whilst I was still in the relationship, although he didn't want me to. I was becoming more and more depressed and she says traumatised. On average once every two or three weeks. I like her. She has been a major support, and I trust her. She is actually seeing me for free right now which is incredibly kind to get me over the last hurdle. She says I will eventually pay it forwards.

OK... .I'm going to join babyducks and raise some red flags around not following the advice of the T.     

It could be a drama triangle as Notwendy suggests.

I would hope that at your next T appointment you can bring this up and work through it.  Please understand I'm not saying that you have to follow what a T says... .100% of the time.  In places where you are not following such a clear recommendation, you need to have a very clear reason.

I'm glad you have found a good T that you trust.  Is it time to trust a little more?  Be a little more vulnerable?

There have been times in my life when I thought I didn't need T.  I'm now at a place where I look forward to it. 

My current focus is to learn how to "soften" what I say, or say it in a way that is less threatening... .or stays far away from a way that would indicate that my wife is wrong or bad about something.

I don't think I was ever a "mean" person, but certainly very direct.  It's nice to gain new r/s skills that you can use when you think appropriate.  There are times when I still feel my directness is appropriate.

My current T is wonderful.  I can flat out say "I don't get it... ." or "I disagree... .wouldn't it be better to do X"  That openness allows my T to peek further inside me and then nudge me in the right direction.

I have found lots of things about me that I like... and some that I don't. 

I want to encourage you to stay on your journey... .and pay it forward.

FF

[lovenature]

Hey L

From what I have learned: BPD, NPD, HPD traits cross over, but ASPD is very different.

I think the bottom line needs to be what we are willing to accept in a relationship while still considering it healthy enough to be worthwhile; if both partners put each others feelings first it is very healthy, sadly a person with a disorder that prevents them from putting their partner first, and a co-dependant who puts their partner first, combine for a very destructive relationship for both people.

I know you are trying to do what you feel is best, and are hurting very much.

[Larmoyant]

lovenature, thank you for understanding me. It's been a very difficult week. Not sure where I'm at now, still trying to find a balance, still not wanting to believe someone could be so cruel, wanting to believe that there's something to redeem in all of this.
 
notWendy, this rings true so much so that I'm considering not going back. I saw her yesterday and it didn't go well. She believes my ex is an "evil svengali ", and sometimes he was, but there were loving moments and I don't feel able to express the good I saw in him. She says I have Stockholm Syndrome.  I don't want to criticise someone who has helped me so much, but I don't see the good things he did as coming from a place of manipulation. I thought they were real, e.g. the tickets were a nice gesture even if it was an excuse to touch down. I thought he may have loved me sometimes. I'm not sure if my judgement is right or not.

babyducks, the concept of self-validation is new to me. I have many feelings  that I'm fighting as they don't seem to be justified, e.g. missing him despite all the abuse, and I'm judging myself for having these feelings, feeling judged for having them, causing me to feel upset. Maybe learning to self-validate is the key. I will read more about it.

FF, thank you for your encouragement. This is a maze, but I'll figure the way out sooner or later.

[formflier]

 but I don't see the good things he did as coming from a place of manipulation.  

I think it is unlikely it was coming from a place of conscious manipulation either.  You can't rule it out... .but it seems you believe it was genuine.  You know him better than we do... .so... .for now, let's go with it and say the good was "honest"... .or perhaps "authentic" is a better word.

Does that really change anything for you?

Can you also say that the "bad stuff"... .or "dysfunctional stuff" that he did was also not manipulative.  That it was also "authentic" or "honest"?

pwBPD are many times very "in the moment".  Their feelings change with a rapidity that will make many others (us... the nons) heads spin.  Their feelings are so powerful that they have a hard time believing they used to feel another way.  That sometimes comes across as them "denying" or "lieing" about past events.

Does any of the above paragraph ring true with what you experienced?  Perhaps it is another way of looking at this person you are deciding on.

But... .this is not about the other person... this is about you.  :)oes it matter why a person treats you a certain way.  If that way is dysfunctional... .why allow it?  If you do allow it... or if you have allowed it, what does that say about how you value yourself?  

Listen, we all have "run ins" with people or have an experience with a person that was no positive.  If the majority of our other experiences are positive... .you can usually patch up and go on.  I'm not getting the vibe that "mostly" you pwBPD has treated you nice.  It seems as time has evolved it became more consistently negative for you, with periodic "niceness".

Do I have this right?

I'm very interested in you making choices that are good for you.  Even if they are uncomfortable.  I'm doing the same in my life.  Quick version:  I no longer have a r/s with my in laws.  It's been that way for 6-8 months.  That's my decision.  They haven't treated me well in a long time.  I accepted that is they way they are.  I accepted that I'm worth standing up for.

Yes... .it can be weird here and there with my wife and kids.  But I want my wife to make her own choices.  And I don't run my choices by my wife anymore.  I married her... .not her parents.

Stepping back... .the temerpature in many of the relationships has dropped a bunch.  So... my decision was good for me and perhaps has had a good effect other places.

Last thought:  Can you articulate "why" your T is giving you the advice that she is giving you.  When you do that... I'm hoping you can describe you and your decisions... .not him.  

I'm still concerned that you are missing a lesson or point of view that your T is trying to teach you  I'm totally fine with going against a T... .if you can articulate their point of view... .and articulate why you are making your choice.  It's your life.  I want to make sure you really get the advice T is giving.

FF

[Larmoyant]

Hi formflier,

I think that much of his behaviour was manipulative, e.g. he once tried to persuade me to go visit a friend in a different state because it would be 'good for me' when in actual fact he wanted to date another woman, but some of his gestures I believe were well meant. Indicative of how he was viewing me at the time perhaps, but still sincere. I've been wondering about the concert tickets, my therapist says it's pure manipulation, yet I really don't think so. I mean, he didn't seem to want anything else. He didn't carry on the conversation, ask to meet or anything. Just disappeared and may or may not contact me again. I've had a tough few days wondering what it all meant, but I've steadied myself again now. Perhaps, as I've learned, he wanted to see whether or not the attachment was still in place. I'm not sure.

.Does that really change anything for you?

.

I'm not sure if it changes anything, but his effort to do something nice shows that he cares for me sometimes. I'd like him to care for me even if it's only sometimes, a moment when he remembers me in a nice way.

.It seems as time has evolved it became more consistently negative for you, with periodic "niceness".

.

Yes, 100% right. It began with short-lived idealisation ending in massive devaluation, interspersed with moments of "niceness". Less and less as the relationship went on. Typical BPD relationship.

.Last thought: Can you articulate "why" your T is giving you the advice that she is giving you

.

I'll try. I know my therapist has my best interests at heart. I was in a pretty bad way when I first started seeing her. Sometimes, when I recalled something traumatic, she'd remind me to breathe. The relationship has cost me a lot, loss of relationships, career, etc. She views him as a manipulative, domineering, abuser and he can be. There have been times when he has overwhelmed me and I've felt helpless. She has no empathy for him. I suppose that's because she's focusing on me not him. He once rang her to tell her that she is "selling snake oil" demanding to know what was being said. I'd refused to  discuss our conversations with him which was probably the only real boundary in the relationship.

I was shocked at the time, very concerned, but my therapist reassured me that she would still help me. I was upset that he'd done this, but now I can see where he was coming from. He had a fear of me going to see her as he was threatened. I think that is very sad whilst my therapist sees it as pure control. She is not interested in understanding him, but I am. It helps me. She says I have too much empathy for him. That my compassion is a danger to me, but I don't think so as the more I understand the stronger I become. At least I think so. It allows me to be more objective, to weigh up the pros and cons, to stand back a little from all the emotions. I'm in most danger of succumbing to any attempts at getting me back when I'm caught in my emotions, not when I'm learning about his.

The last few days have been difficult since he contacted me. He abruptly ended the conversation, left me wondering why and if he'll make contact again, but I've regained some ground. Reminding myself of the realities of the relationship always helps.

Thanks FF

[formflier]

OK... .much clearer.

I think your pwBPD is sending you a largely consistent message about the relationship.  Sure... there are "blips" here and there of other things (such as tickets).

Can you describe in your own words the message he is sending?   Can you describe in your own words the message he is sending about your value or the value he places on the r/s?

Stay away from "why" and motivations.  One or two sentences should do. 

FF

[Larmoyant]

I'm not sure what message he's sending and don't know what value he places on me or the relationship. Not much I suppose, but it's confusing as he didn't want it to end. He was distraught and 10 months on still keeps contacting me. Not so much anymore since I stopped JADEing. I hope he values me a little. It hurts to think he doesn't.

[babyducks]

Larmoyant,

Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Nathaniel Branden?    Yeah, he was new to me too.  I find him a little odd is spots.    Among a lot of other things, he did a lot of work on self esteem and came up with the six pillars of self esteem.   The six pillars according to him are:  Living Consciously, Self-acceptance, Self-responsibility, Self-assertiveness, Living purposefully and Integrity.

What appears to be true is that people with strong self esteem are resilient in face of life's difficulties.

I'm not sure if it changes anything, but his effort to do something nice shows that he cares for me sometimes. I'd like him to care for me even if it's only sometimes, a moment when he remembers me in a nice way.

I've noticed you have said something like this many times in different ways.   I noticed because it resonates with me.  I can see this is very important to you.   Wanting him to value you a little, because it hurts when it doesn't is a pretty big thing.  Don't you think?   That's what made me think of  Nathanial Branden.    One of the Branden quotes that you see around a lot is "When people are not accepting of themselves they are often obsessed by the acceptance of others."

For what it's worth, I think feelings are neither right or wrong, good or bad, healthy or not.   We have the right to feel the way we feel.   I also think we have a responsibility to ourselves to make good choices with and about  those feelings.  Self acceptance, accepting myself means to me being willing to experience what I think, feel and do, even when it's uncomfortable or I don't truly like it.   Does that make sense?  I feel a complicated mix of emotions for my person with BPD.    I can live with those feelings.   I have a responsibility to myself to act in ways that match my values and ideals when processing those feelings.   What you feel is perfectly natural, wanting to end the relationship on a good note, with regard.   That may or may not be possible.    What I would encourage rather than waiting and hoping for him to value you, is that you value you.   That way you are not at the mercy of outside events.   You don't need anyone else's praise to make you valuable.

my two cents.

'ducks

[formflier]

  What I would encourage rather than waiting and hoping for him to value you, is that you value you.   

And... .that valuing you manifests itself in action on your part to "demonstrate" that you value you.

Sometimes you may take action and other people could express shock and befuddlement or perhaps even condemnation of you.  Can you value yourself enough to follow through?

This is an area where I have had to take steps... .  I'm not saying "I have arrived" and got it all figured out.

What I am sure of is that the chances of me "automatically" valuing someone else over myself is very very low now.  In the past it would likely be the default.

switching gears.

I'm not going to let go of "the message he is sending you" question. 

I concede your point that we will never "know" what message he intends.    What message is "more likely than not".  I think you alluded to it with "I suppose... "

This ties in with how you value yourself. 

What message is it "more likely than not" that he is sending you... ."most of the time"?

FF

[lovenature]

I'd like him to care for me even if it's only sometimes, a moment when he remembers me in a nice way.

Hey L

When a person loves another, they ALWAYS care about their partner; sure you have typical arguments and fights, but the care is still shown in EVERY situation and what is said/done afterwards (how far something escalates, timing of an argument and what is said/done, making proper amends, living in actual reality).

I know how much you want things to work out somehow, so hoping that enough love will conquer (I tried so hard for way longer than I should have to make it work). The hard truth is that BPD is a serious mental illness, and the closer we get to the person we love the more we are pushed away, and there is no ideal balance in how close we get because it all depends on their emotion of the moment.

[lovenature]

I know my therapist has my best interests at heart.

She views him as a manipulative, domineering, abuser and he can be.

Does your therapist specialize in BPD relationships?
Does she have enough knowledge of the illness to know how it manifests itself during the relationship; why PWBPD do what they do, and how it can be taken the wrong way without significant understanding about the disorder?

[Lilyroze]

Larmoyant,

Big hugs and hope things get clearer and your path easier in the next few months either way you chose to go.

You have received such good advice on the board, and this thread. I truly only wanted to stop in and give L hugs and to all on this thread hugs and a thank you. Such wise advice as always FF, Wendy, babyducks and lovenature.

TY so much babyducks for the statement about self soothe for BPD as we all know, and the hard time self validating for some of us nons. That really resonated with me due to my Mom and my soon to be ex. It has been much easier to get back to my position of strength, belief and self validating now that I am out of the FOG, have boundaries and stepped away from the gaslighting, emotional abuse and fits. It is so important to believe, have self love and stop taking the abuse at all costs.

L, each relationship is different and if you can see different ways to handle situations now, that will help you so much in life with anyone and everything. So look at this as love and growth to yourself as well. If you do try again to be friends then use the validating skills, and all you learned on here in conjunction with boundaries for you. If you go forward without contact then love yourself enough to enjoy the journey of learning self love and new skills. Be happy and prosper always.

[Larmoyant]

babyducks, I haven't heard of him, but this sounds like something I could learn from right now, thank you. I just googled him and will order some of the books.

.I'm not sure if it changes anything, but his effort to do something nice shows that he cares for me sometimes. I'd like him to care for me even if it's only sometimes, a moment when he remembers me in a nice way.

.

Seeing this quote isolated from the rest was an eye-opener to me. I could have been writing about my father who left when I was young.  I seriously believe that I've been reliving my childhood nightmare over and over with my ex, on a weekly, sometimes daily basis. Push/pull, on again/off again, the constant questioning of and abandoning the relationship, and me clinging for dear life not to experience that depth of pain ever again.  I could not have chosen a worse partner if I wanted to feel valued. Maybe I've been doing this all my life seeking value externally. I'm not sure how to go about valuing myself more, but the books might help.

babyducks, I also feel a complicated mix of emotions when I think of my ex, but I have trouble living with them still. Not wanting to feel the full force of any of them as they all hurt, whether it's anger because of the lies or sorrow because of the loss. I want to feel more peaceful and being kinder to each other does seem to be the best way to get there. Sometimes i think that anger might be better though because then I can just close the door and never look back. It changes depending on what I remember.

Right now I'm feeling sorry for him. He's clearly suffering some sort of anguish and he recently mentioned me not missing him again saying he heard me say this (I didn't), so I wrote that my decision to end things was the most difficult of my life, but that I did miss many things about him, that I want him to be happy, want him to be ok and also want the same for myself. I'm not sure if that was the correct way to communicate with him, but it was from my heart. Knowing me it was probably invalidating in some way.

Formflier,  I finally understand what you mean here and oh dear, all the memories have come tumbling out. Most of the time I received the message loud and clear that he did not value me. All the insults, the put downs, I lost all pride in myself, my achievements. Too many times I felt 'less than' and I'm still feeling this way.  There were times when he did seem to value me, but its all tied up in the idealisation phases, the painting white times, and they got less and less. Perhaps, he did value me as an 'attachment', one that stayed when she should have run for the hills.

Can I please ask does anyone think that I'm showing him I don't value myself by continuing to communicate with him?

lovenature, you're right when I look back at my marriage my exh and I were always caring even in an argument, no one tried to tear the other to pieces. Mortally wounding them. We had our ups and downs, obviously more downs as we're now divorced, but he was one of the kindest men on the planet. Makes me cry sometimes remembering how he treated me compared to this one.

I have to keep reminding myself that he is suffering a serious mental illness and stop trying to relate to him as if he doesn't. I mean it was so bad that towards the end we couldn't even go anywhere without him blowing up in a jealous rage. I'm not exaggerating. He'd glare and scowl at everyone around him. Pretend to go to the men's then spy on me from the doorway. I could see him. I became too scared to look around for fear of being accused of wanting someone else. I became a terrible trigger for him. It must be torment. How can I not have compassion for this?

.Does your therapist specialize in BPD relationships?

.

She is not particularly knowledgeable about BPD, just the basics, but has had extensive experience in helping people abused by their partners. She was also a survivor of abuse herself as a young woman.

Lilyroze,  thank you so much for the much needed hug. I have received great advice on here and am so grateful for this help. Thank you all. I don't see some things that are pointed out and it really helps.
I'm not really sure if we will end up as friends or if that option is even really open to me. He just seems to come and go periodically these days, and I'm probably not quite up to being his friend just yet anyway.  I still feel this is better than us being enemies and you're right it can be hugely beneficial if I learn more about boundaries and communication skills. I don't want to experience this type of pain and depression again.  It sounds as if you're in a good place Lilyroze and I wish for lots more good things to come your way. Hugs, and love to you

[formflier]

Can I please ask does anyone think that I'm showing him I don't value myself by continuing to communicate with him?

 

Larmoyant,

You got the point I was making. 

Also, please understand that "reading" messages in peoples actions is an inexact science.  So, your highlighted phrase above could be the message you are sending and it could be what he is "hearing".

Usually, "uneducated" nons will send mixed messages.  They will verbally tell the pwBPD that "I don't like how you speak to me" and then through their actions they will "tell" the pwBPD that it is really OK.  Because they keep coming around.

Big pwBPD truth  They will "listen" much more to your actions... .than to your words.  I have a hard time explaining why... .perhaps others can give that a shot.  However, I "know" this to be true.

Thoughts?

FF

[babyducks]

Larmoyant,

  I seriously believe that I've been reliving my childhood nightmare over and over with my ex, on a weekly, sometimes daily basis.

This is a great insight.   I suspect you are probably right.    Many of us end up in relationships that eerily echo our family of origin in some way.   My partner was my mother all over again, only worse.   Much as I hate to admit it.   There was a component of trying to repair the broken relationship I had with my mother by reliving it with my partner.   To be sure, that was not the only thing going on but it is a slice of the pie.   For me, it added to the hurt of the broken relationship because it came so close to my core wound.   I think all of us have a core wore.   

, and me clinging for dear life not to experience that depth of pain ever again.  I could not have chosen a worse partner if I wanted to feel valued. Maybe I've been doing this all my life seeking value externally. 

My experience has been the more I resist the pain the worse the pain is.   I remember learning to ride a bike and being told when you fall; go with the fall, roll with it and it will hurt less.   True.    And works in life too.   The more I resist the life, the more I fight against it,  the more it hurts.   Loosing a significant relationship is devastating.  The only thing you can do is move with it, not against it.

I always defined my feelings of self worth externally,  from what I can/could contribute.  My job.  Doing things for others.  That's okay but can't be the only way I define self worth.   Self worth should be present even when I am sitting home watching TV.   I had a strong pattern of self criticism that I still need to be wary of.
 

Not wanting to feel the full force of any of them as they all hurt, whether it's anger because of the lies or sorrow because of the loss.
 

To me recovering from an emotional wound is similar to recovering from a physical wound.   There is pain to it but trying to avoid the pain of rehab delays the recovery.  I think what has been helpful to me is to view with as a rehab of sorts.  To pay attention to my eating, sleeping, and exercise.   When I am ready force myself to go out with friends because I know it is the right thing to do even if is feels yecky at first.   Pain in life is not optional.   It is what we do with it that creates a life well lived.

  How can I not have compassion for this?

Why shouldn't you have compassion for him?   What's wrong with compassion tempered with reason?   Compassion doesn't mean you need to be vulnerable.  Compassion goes both ways.  You can be compassionate and kind with yourself too.    Building yourself up,  making yourself emotionally stronger, more confident of your own self worth, becoming self reliant is having compassion for you.  Not putting yourself in difficult circumstances without the tools to deal with them is having compassion for you.   

Can I please ask does anyone think that I'm showing him I don't value myself by continuing to communicate with him?

I would guess that formflier has it correct.   When we don't value ourselves people around us 'know' this about us in the 100's of little ways we reveal it.  pwBPD who are enormously sensitive to life, emotions and peoples moods probably pick this up right away.   Although it will probably never be articulated quite this way.    If you communicate with and engage in the continual BPD debate of who is better/who is worse,  who is right/who is wrong,  who is more deserving/who is less deserving, then the message is being sent that your worth is open for JADE'ing, justifying, arguing, defending and explaining.

my thoughts... .
'ducks

[Larmoyant]

.

I always defined my feelings of self worth externally,  from what I can/could contribute.  My job.  :)oing things for others.  That's okay but can't be the only way I define self worth.   Self worth should be present even when I am sitting home watching TV.   I had a strong pattern of self criticism that I still need to be wary of.

This has touched a sore spot and although I can't articulate it properly, it has something to do with why I'm not letting go of him completely. All of these posts have made me realise that this is what is happening. I'm not letting go because then what were all these losses for? Part of my problem is that I no longer have a job and I also lost my postgrad place. This was my dream career and I'd worked so hard to get there. Raising two kids, working and studying. It was my identity, what I did, my goal. I'm no longer young and feel it was my last chance. I let everyone down, most importantly my poor boys. It's a devastating loss and they got to see their mother fall to pieces. This is hard to live with. I'm going to try hard to change it, but it's difficult to get back up. I don't understand why, but this seems to tie me to him in some strange way. I can't seem to explain why.

Something else. I was always fighting with him to prove I'm a worthy person and maybe in some way I'm still doing that. Trying to prove to him that I'm a worthwhile person.

[lovenature]

How can I not have compassion for this?

You can have compassion, like you have clearly shown that you do, but you also need to have compassion for yourself; by realizing that continuing contact causes both of you more pain, you show compassion for both of you by staying NC.

Maybe I've been doing this all my life seeking value externally. I'm not sure how to go about valuing myself more, but the books might help.

I have struggled for many years with low self worth and looked for it externally. Yes books can help guide you, but a good place to start would be to look at what a kind, caring, good hearted person you are to try so hard to make things work with your partner; your values of honesty, trust, empathy, compassion, respect are extremely worthy qualities you have as a person.

[Larmoyant]

A kind word really can change a persons whole day.

lovenature, when I read your words I was reminded of caring and kindness in the world, and it empowered me. Thank you and thanks to all who helped me here. I really took a giant step forwards this week