Attention seeking behavior

[nylonsquid]

Can anyone shed some light into this from your experience?

My current gf undoubtedly has BPD. I know because my last gf did too and they did quite the reality altering number on me. I was wondering how attention seeking develops, why do they need to go outside the relationship for validation. My gfwBPD believed I keep her from having friends and that I'm controlling because I feel uncomfortable with her exchanging texts and messages with a guy she fancies and later takes him out for a drink on a friday night and goes non-communicative for a few hours.

How does one set a boundary here? She says she won't budge on the 'friends' aspect and she won't understand how I'm cool with friends just not dating. Obviously you can't talk sense to a pwBPD when they want what they want.

How does one deal with this and hold boundaries?

Currently: I told her how I don't want to keep her from being free so she can date anyone she wants. In the meantime I've been ignoring her (not being loving like a normal bf) but I do say hi to her but always try to be neutral. This has caused her lots of distress and she's now being nice as opposed to how she acted where I was devalued while she was seeking validation.

So basically, how I dealt with it is not to deal with it. Is there any other way that's more constructive or helpful? I can't communicate with her because her reality is just different than mine so there's no point in words; she's amazing at using them to skew my reality so I just won't give her that. So it seems she's crying for attention now and being nice to me.

Weird thing this affliction eh?

[Silveron]

Ask yourself... Is this something you want to deal with the rest of your life?  BPD cannot be cured.  I've been married to my BPD wife for over 12 years and it has gotten a lot worse.  Expect the following:  Emotional abuse (she will withhold and use sex against you), Verbal abuse (every day of being put down and belittled even in front of your kids), Physical abuse (this has stopped, but happened quite regularly until I left and told her I was contacting the police), Threats (threats of physical violence, threats of leaving (doesn't matter if your child is there and hears it)).

Also expect all holidays to be ruined since they are not totally about her.  She will on purpose be late or not show up to any family functions or anything that has nothing to do with her.  Expect that anything she does to hurt you, is your fault.  Expect to be painted black for very long periods of time, and being painted white when she only needs something.  Expect to not be able to trust her.  Expect her to be manipulative.  Expect any bond you have now to totally erode over the years.  Expect any sort of help that you try to provide her, she will either not try or not stick with.  Expect the unexpected.

You won't be happy, you won't feel loved.  Everything is on your shoulders.  This is my marriage.  Yet the psychologist we saw (and my wife later quit) told me if I were to leave, my wife without a doubt commit suicide.

Please leave this girl.  Get your life back.  There is nothing worse than being alone and being married to a BPD.

[nylonsquid]

Thanks for the response, Silveron.

My pwBPD has cheated on me numerous times. Unfortunately as a last attempt I moved in with her with the hopes that having a settled life (what she wanted) would at least alleviate the cheating; I can handle most of the rest.

I'm not angry, upset or anything. I've been through the worst things in the past 5-6 years with the previous partner being BPD as well. I know much about it. It comes down to me not being able to move because I'm under contract to stay at the new place. Its a beautiful place which I've moved into just 2-3 months back. In an effort to not run away right away and try to enjoy the home for now, I'm rolling with staying there until either the contract is up or I find a new place.

I don't have much of a relationship with her any more. I withhold sex from HER. Its because she can't be trusted. Her behavior is very suspect; she idolizes a man she just met while devaluing me. I assume she's cheating on me at this point. I'm detached from her in that sense so it doesn't hurt me... as far as I can currently tell. I am also dating others so really I have my own life as I don't care what she does/is doing because I can't get any truth from her so what's the point?

I'm asking because of two things:
- If the attention seeking behavior, which I believe leads to infidelity, can be alleviated or removed.
- How to cope when I'm living with her for the time

I ultimately do love her. I don't hate her or am angry at her because she's helped me see the childhood wounds I've suffered and I've grown tremendously. I am quite thankful to her for that. I've dealt with the pain and arguing already so now I'm at the acceptance stage and wish her well. I do want to live in my new place for a little longer to enjoy the space and, let's not be in denial, live with her for a little longer. She is my sweetheart but it probably won't work in the long run.

[Silveron]

I'm asking because of two things:
- If the attention seeking behavior, which I believe leads to infidelity, can be alleviated or removed.
- How to cope when I'm living with her for the time

1)  Depends on the person.  With the right BPD therapy it's possible, however for the foreseeable future it's something that you have to expect and in a sense accept if you are going to continue to live with her.  Don't have sex with her, last thing you need from her is a STD.

2)  If you have detached, then do that verbally as well.  When she goes into her rages, tell her that you will talk to her in the future when she calms down.  Expect total resistance when you do make the move to formally end the relationship and/or move out.  To her that is abandonment and will trigger her into either a rage or bizarre behavior.

Remember BPDs IMO have an emotional IQ of a teenager.  Expect the irrational and the unexpected.  Protect yourself financially, emotionally and physically.  Their borderline personality basically means they are capable of anything.  IMO the sooner you can get out of this relationship the better.  Perhaps the reason why you are drawn to these women, is that you believe they need the knight on the white horse?  If you save them, they will love and adore you forever type of mentality?  Unfortunately usually the opposite happens, since they know how to play the game better than anyone else out there...

[nylonsquid]

Thanks for the response, Silveron.

1)  Depends on the person.  With the right BPD therapy it's possible, however for the foreseeable future it's something that you have to expect and in a sense accept if you are going to continue to live with her.  Don't have sex with her, last thing you need from her is a STD.

- I don't have sex with her. I know the STD is a big one but I can't get myself to do it if there is no intimacy and no trust. I find it gross and deceitful.

2)  If you have detached, then do that verbally as well.  When she goes into her rages, tell her that you will talk to her in the future when she calms down.  Expect total resistance when you do make the move to formally end the relationship and/or move out.  To her that is abandonment and will trigger her into either a rage or bizarre behavior.

She's really into psychotherapy, spiritual awakenings and such so we've had times where things get heated and I ask for time out or to cool down and to talk when emotions aren't high and I'd say that's always been good. I've talked to her about things ending and us moving on and it seems we both fight over whom actually wants to end it. And truth be told I don't want to except that there is no trust and I don't understand her love when she keeps seeking attention. I've told her that she can do whatever she wants but if she's with me then that's my boundary that she cannot cross. Its been made clear. Its been a discussion of whom wants the relationship to end and no one has the balls to say they want it to end but we basically put it on the other. Like I'd say "If you want to see others then that's cool but doesn't work for me so we should end it". She says "I want to stay with you but you want to control me and don't want me to have friends". Her idea of friends is my idea of dating. You know... meet someone from the opposite sex, get infatuated, go out on the weekend for drinks with them then possibly sleeping with them (apparently only I am in the way because I get upset, otherwise this would happen). So yea... this is obviously manipulative.

I tried talking to her about it but she said she had nothing to say and I could not get a conversation going to figure out status. But the strange thing is after that convo she was so distressed about events that I brought attention to about our past that I almost felt she was going to attack me and I told her to step away and not attempt to attack me. I know I can fend off against her but the look on her eyes was scary enough claiming she was in pain. To be honest, I feel bad for her (which I know is a weakness of mine). But the strange thing is the next day she arrived home and I apologized (typical non-BPD eh?) for perhaps pushing too much and she said she couldn't remember. She said she remembered being upset but doesn't recall what was said saying I'm lucky she doesn't remember. How weird is that? Did anyone have this? I might do a new post about this.


Remember BPDs IMO have an emotional IQ of a teenager.  Expect the irrational and the unexpected.  Protect yourself financially, emotionally and physically.  Their borderline personality basically means they are capable of anything.  IMO the sooner you can get out of this relationship the better.  Perhaps the reason why you are drawn to these women, is that you believe they need the knight on the white horse?  If you save them, they will love and adore you forever type of mentality?  Unfortunately usually the opposite happens, since they know how to play the game better than anyone else out there...

Ya, I'm aware it has to do with my dynamic with my mom. I've come to conclude and realize that the pain they have inside of them is me projecting the pain I've had as a child when mother wasn't there for emotional support and giving compassion. So I relive this memory unconsciously trying to recreate this child memory and give it the support and understanding it needs. Anyone else figured something like this out about themselves?

[Grey Kitty]

How does one set a boundary here? She says she won't budge on the 'friends' aspect and she won't understand how I'm cool with friends just not dating. Obviously you can't talk sense to a pwBPD when they want what they want.

Honestly, the only boundary you can set is "I won't be in a relationship with somebody who cheats on me." You have to decide at what point it becomes cheating for YOU. And you will have to figure out whether she actually crossed that line or not.

I've been there. Long story... .my wife and I opened up our marriage. But with permission and knowledge. At a tough point, she told me she was going to have sex with another guy while she was across the country. And she did. Later we tried to reconcile. (Since we had opened up our marriage, just having sex with somebody else wasn't the problem--the problem was that she did it without my permission, if that makes sense.)

After that, my limit was that since I didn't trust the guy at all, and didn't trust her with the guy, I told her that if she wanted to reconcile with me, she had to cut all contact with him. She did... .then a couple months later, said that she had done it "voluntarily" and "on her own terms", which meant she was going to resume contact with him (I think as a "friend".

I got a few arguments about being controlling and stopping her from having friends too. I ultimately gave up on trying to convince her that I was "right" and she was "wrong" about this situation. But right or wrong, she had to choose this friendship or our marriage. I couldn't and wouldn't be married to her if she chose this friend. Obviously, we had a few other issues... .and except for this one, I was willing to negotiate and compromise, and I told her this.

That was the end of our marriage (except for legal stuff still in progress today.)

This is a really hard choice to make. But you have to accept that she's gonna flirt if she chooses to flirt. (I accepted that my wife probably couldn't stop herself from flirting even if she tried. What was also interesting was that my wife at least claimed she was OK with me flirting, or even wished I would... .although whenever I did connect with another woman in a flirty or friendly way, she did get jealous and work to shut it down somehow. Oh well... .)

And accept that she's going to cheat if she chooses to cheat. And you can't stop her.

But note that cheating and flirting are different things. Think about what you would consider the bounds of "acceptable" flirting.

[nylonsquid]

Sorry to hear, Grey Kitty. That sounds painful. That is pretty strong of you to accept that she can flirt. I guess even when you've allowed it there was still mistrust which is the biggest thing. Bottom line it seems that you can never trust them even if you accept them. Truly painful. This seems to be the naturaly trajectory of my current situation. I honestly can't tell if we're together because that conversation isn't happening on a mature level and we're stuck together for the time because of the house. Its a great living arrangements that's hard to let go of. I still love her but not in a very attached way as I don't have sex and am not lovey with her. Funny enough, she's been great ever since I don't give a F what she does as we're not together in my mind.

There are no boundaries for me to accept, she's going to do whatever she wants. So I let her and tell her I'm taking my own path like she is.

Its interesting what you say about them being jealous. I've noticed that when the flirting I may do is real she would choose to not see it but if I have an innocent friendship with an old friend that's always been mutual she acts real jealous. Both my las exes were like that. I did flirt with the previous ex just to see how she'd act but I got NOTHING. I literally got some girl's number in front of her at a shoe store and she pretended nothing was happening. I was so fascinated by this BPD thing. Its as if the pain is too much that they shut it out but when I'm not flirting and have a friend then that's the end of the world! Probably because its safe for them to let out these powerful feelings when nothing is ACTUALLY happening. Soo odd... .

[Grey Kitty]

There are no boundaries for me to accept, she's going to do whatever she wants. So I let her and tell her I'm taking my own path like she is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "boundaries for you to accept". I speak of boundaries I will enforce--something I do to protect myself from the consequences of another person's behavior.

A better example of a boundary I'd enforce is that I don't accept verbal abuse, being yelled at and attacked--To protect myself from that, I leave to remove myself (if in person) or hang up (if on the phone).

In this case, the boundary I was enforcing was that I wouldn't be in a relationship with somebody who was cheating. Ending the relationship is the hardest and harshest boundary enforcement.

... .and now you have me really confused as to your relationship status--both what it is today and what it was before, when I read this:

I honestly can't tell if we're together because that conversation isn't happening on a mature level and we're stuck together for the time because of the house. Its a great living arrangements that's hard to let go of. I still love her but not in a very attached way as I don't have sex and am not lovey with her.

So do you share a lease with her, or is it in only one of your names? Were you officially in a relationship, and has she stopped acting like it? Did one of you move out of a shared bedroom? Did you never have a shared bedroom? How long have you lived with her, and how long have you been in a romantic relationship with her? Did you ever agree to date exclusively with her?

[Rayban]

Why do they seek attention?

Well partly because they can't validate themselves.  They always need another.  It's like a drug to them.  When they're out with someone else, they completely forget their partner. They need their fix.

They feel entitled to it. Add implusivity, selfishness, and you get behaviour that is unacceptable.

Sounds to me she wants to keep you around as an orbiter.  One of many numbers she can call on when she needs something.

[nylonsquid]

I'm not sure what you mean by "boundaries for you to accept". I speak of boundaries I will enforce--something I do to protect myself from the consequences of another person's behavior.

A better example of a boundary I'd enforce is that I don't accept verbal abuse, being yelled at and attacked--To protect myself from that, I leave to remove myself (if in person) or hang up (if on the phone).

In this case, the boundary I was enforcing was that I wouldn't be in a relationship with somebody who was cheating. Ending the relationship is the hardest and harshest boundary enforcement.

I guess I meant acceptable boundaries for oneself. I've done that and said I can't have her meeting new guy friends and going out for drinks with them. She insists that she can have friends. So I told her that doesn't work for me. And that's about as far as we got into the convo. Seems obvious that neither are committed at this point.

... .and now you have me really confused as to your relationship status--both what it is today and what it was before, when I read this:
So do you share a lease with her, or is it in only one of your names? Were you officially in a relationship, and has she stopped acting like it? Did one of you move out of a shared bedroom? Did you never have a shared bedroom? How long have you lived with her, and how long have you been in a romantic relationship with her? Did you ever agree to date exclusively with her?

We were in a relationship, we do share a lease together and we had the above convo. We currently live together in a shared bedroom. The entire relationship is probably 2+ years and I've moved in with her about 3+ months ago now.

Yes, we agreed to date exclusively only she uses the having friend guys as an excuse. This is how she cheated on me the first time then starts acting like its my fault for it happening because I don't let her have friends.

I've decided that there is no reasoning or words I can give her that she won't manipulate to her liking. There is no reason to follow when she says reason is only there to rationalize beliefs. There are no logical statements I can make when she says narratives are illusory because there is no pattern between events and events are random, that there is nothing to understand and that life is just is. She's very smart and into philosophy and spirituality. Since I cannot give her my words which to me is sharing my reality with her without her manipulating that, then I've decided that she is always a cheater and I should just accept that. Right now she's been very sweet to me but I'm not falling for it again. What we have right now isn't a typical relationship, she can do whatever she wants because in my head we're not together and I can do whatever I want. I don't think she deserves to know what I'm up to or doing.

I obviously have to move out and move on at some point but I do have a lot of amazing things right now. Our home is amazing, she's very nice to me and I feel comfortable. I might not be ready to move out right away but I'm going to have to. I know that.

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, we agreed to date exclusively only she uses the having friend guys as an excuse. This is how she cheated on me the first time then starts acting like its my fault for it happening because I don't let her have friends.

When did she cheat on you? You say "first time", so I'm wondering if you know it has happened more than once already. I'm assuming it involved sex, not just emotional intimacy or going out for drinks.

What we have right now isn't a typical relationship, she can do whatever she wants because in my head we're not together and I can do whatever I want.

We currently live together in a shared bedroom.

Uhm, dude, this combination sounds terribly messed up, confused and likely to explode to me. You get all the discord and fights of a relationship with none of the advantages or security (besides reduced rent). Or are you still having sex with her despite this?

I mean you don't sound ready to go out and date other women... .I bet if you brought another woman home for the night things would go really badly. And if she brought a guy home for the night, it wouldn't be any better!

I'm not trying to be too hard on you, but I really think you and she need to find something that works better than this is sounding here. That might be trying to make things work again. That might be really splitting up and living separately.

[nylonsquid]

When did she cheat on you? You say "first time", so I'm wondering if you know it has happened more than once already. I'm assuming it involved sex, not just emotional intimacy or going out for drinks.

About a year ago. She confessed to having sex with one that I caught her sexting. Another one was "cuddling" and the third was after I ran away from her because she wanted to go for tea with a guy she exchanged numbers with. After I ran she slept with him.

Uhm, dude, this combination sounds terribly messed up, confused and likely to explode to me. You get all the discord and fights of a relationship with none of the advantages or security (besides reduced rent). Or are you still having sex with her despite this?

We don't particularly fight. I just don't have anything to fight over. What would I be fighting for? She can do anything whether I'm with her or not. I'm not having sex with her; no trust, no sex.

I mean you don't sound ready to go out and date other women... .I bet if you brought another woman home for the night things would go really badly. And if she brought a guy home for the night, it wouldn't be any better!

I'm not ready to bring anyone home, you're right. I might also not be ready to date also, who knows. I would be honest with my date if it so happens and tell them I'm in a transition and moving out, because really... I should.

I'm not trying to be too hard on you, but I really think you and she need to find something that works better than this is sounding here. That might be trying to make things work again. That might be really splitting up and living separately.

I do appreciate the advice, I need to hear it. You're not being hard as long as you believe you're truthful. And thank you for sharing your advice. Who knows what our true nature is, I seem to be okay to staying, we don't seem to be able to converse like maturely about the situation, we can always talk similar interests endlessly so this is what's happening. I'm not angry or upset or unhappy to be honest. I'm just curious that I haven't moved out and still rolling with it. I guess it was a hard move and the situation isn't bad, in many ways its pretty good. I might wait til the new year before I look seriously into moving out.

[Grey Kitty]

OK, I get that she doesn't seem very close to capable of being faithful to you. And probably doesn't do very well at being faithful to anybody else either.

And I completely understand your choice to stop sex with her given that.

But living with her, especially sharing a bedroom under those circumstances seems really awkward. Seems like it will create expectations or desires on either your part or hers, being that close. Or just plain weirdness.

For a moment, stop thinking about what she wants. What do you want. Imagine your life, a year or two from now. Do you want to be living with her as a roommate? Do you want to be in a relationship with her? Do you want to be living as a single guy, dating? Do you want to be in a relationship with somebody else?

[nylonsquid]

OK, I get that she doesn't seem very close to capable of being faithful to you. And probably doesn't do very well at being faithful to anybody else either.

And I completely understand your choice to stop sex with her given that.

But living with her, especially sharing a bedroom under those circumstances seems really awkward. Seems like it will create expectations or desires on either your part or hers, being that close. Or just plain weirdness.

For a moment, stop thinking about what she wants. What do you want. Imagine your life, a year or two from now. Do you want to be living with her as a roommate? Do you want to be in a relationship with her? Do you want to be living as a single guy, dating? Do you want to be in a relationship with somebody else?

Definitely want to find someone and settle in with them in a nice home like I have right now I actually tried talking to her last night about it but she got upset and said I was mean especially when I told her I wanted to watch the rest of a movie even if she falls asleep; the movie was on her laptop. She started getting defensive and I pointed that out to her. I asked her if she's worried I'd spy on her messages and I was sort of laughing at how defensive she was. I told her I didn't care, she can message whoever, this is why I never ask her what she's up to so she doesn't have to lie. Any way, now she's upset and says I know why. I really didn't and told her how she always wanted to message and be with guys and now I'm saying she can and how I don't care. "I thought this is all you wanted". Its hilarious that she's upset with me but doesn't understand why :D She has no reason other than she's actually messaging guys (which she was). Oh boy 

[Grey Kitty]

I asked her if she's worried I'd spy on her messages and I was sort of laughing at how defensive she was. I told her I didn't care, she can message whoever, this is why I never ask her what she's up to so she doesn't have to lie. Any way, now she's upset and says I know why. I really didn't and told her how she always wanted to message and be with guys and now I'm saying she can and how I don't care. "I thought this is all you wanted". Its hilarious that she's upset with me but doesn't understand why :D She has no reason other than she's actually messaging guys (which she was). Oh boy 

And this is why it is really a bad idea to continue living with her right now--you get to have something more-or-less like the fights over her flirting and cheating you had when you were really "together" ... .without the benefits of being in a relationship.

Even if YOU don't get all upset about it, she still does.

Please try to find your way out... .I don't think this is going to get much better.

I doubt that either of you are cut out to have an open relationship that is healthy and fun, rather than full of drama and chaos and cheating.

[nylonsquid]

And this is why it is really a bad idea to continue living with her right now--you get to have something more-or-less like the fights over her flirting and cheating you had when you were really "together" ... .without the benefits of being in a relationship.

Even if YOU don't get all upset about it, she still does.

Please try to find your way out... .I don't think this is going to get much better.

I doubt that either of you are cut out to have an open relationship that is healthy and fun, rather than full of drama and chaos and cheating.

Not sure where the cheating is, I don't see how we are in any relationship. A pwBPD will be upset at something irregardless of what one does. Am I trying to get out of it? Yes, I am. But I'm in no hurry at the moment. I'm giving it 3-4 months.

[Grey Kitty]

A pwBPD will be upset at something irregardless of what one does. Am I trying to get out of it? Yes, I am. But I'm in no hurry at the moment. I'm giving it 3-4 months.

How 3-4 months of this will be good for you?

I could imagine a strong financial incentive to stay, but I'm having trouble finding anything else about it that sounds good for you.

[nylonsquid]

How 3-4 months of this will be good for you?

I could imagine a strong financial incentive to stay, but I'm having trouble finding anything else about it that sounds good for you.

We have great conversations about philosophy, spirituality and personal growth (believe it or not). Without her I would not have someone push me to see my shadow self and childhood wounds. She has helped me grow and I am really thankful for this experience. The home is gorgeous as she takes incredible care of it, we have two beautiful cats and she's an amazing healthy cook. She is very caring and does love me (in her own way). I mean... there's a lot of reasons to stay. Actually, you could say there's everything but trust. So, I do think I have a decent thing but its not a long term situation. In the meantime I'm making the best of it while I can.